mandrake 9.2 upgrade disappointing (& dangerous)

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by bruce, Nov 19, 2003.

  1. bruce

    bruce Guest

    in addition to installing a kernel that wouldnt let me load it on my
    compaq laptop (comapq acpi), the first warning signale came when it didnt
    recognise the simple partitioning on my 40gb drive and wanted to remove it
    (before asking if this was a fresh install or upgrade from mandrake 9.1)

    after having completed the upgrade option and modifying lilo.conf, fstab &
    /boot to let me back,i find it has replaced products with the same version
    (pan!!) but different config and removed products it oviously had a
    problem with (all terminal apps except xterm) konsole has disappeared but
    a find shows lots of useless konsole references.

    the upgrade option doesnt give you the option to be selective about what
    it upgrades, it took two hours with a 48x/1.4Ghz/512Mb and i'm damned if i
    can find anything its actually improved on.

    frankly downloading the 2Gb .iso's would be a waste of time for anyone
    satisfied with their existing installation. i cant find anything new but
    have found konsole and control centre gone.
     
    bruce, Nov 19, 2003
    #1
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  2. bruce wrote:

    > frankly downloading the 2Gb .iso's would be a waste of time for anyone
    > satisfied with their existing installation. i cant find anything new but
    > have found konsole and control centre gone.


    Give up on the .rpm based distros. Try debian. you simply type in
    apt-get update; apt-get dist-upgrade and its done. In the few cases
    where an updated package wants to copy a new config file in, it gives
    you options as to what you want to do.

    If its a desktop system, try knoppix, its debian based and much more
    user friendly than normal debian. Its primarily cd based so you can try
    it out without affecting your hard drive. There are other debian based
    distros that are also more friendly on the desktop than raw debian.

    I have also heard good things about source based distros, but havent
    extensivly used one yet.

    But I really dislike the rpm based distros.
     
    Kurt Häusler, Nov 19, 2003
    #2
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  3. bruce

    Peter Guest

    bruce wrote:
    > frankly downloading the 2Gb .iso's would be a waste of time for anyone
    > satisfied with their existing installation. i cant find anything new but
    > have found konsole and control centre gone.


    Strange - I've installed MDK9.2 on 3 different PCs (incl a laptop) and had
    no such problems. Going from 9.1 to 9.2 is obviously an incremental step,
    so no massive changes, but several nice updates to various packages.


    Peter
     
    Peter, Nov 19, 2003
    #3
  4. bruce

    Enkidu Guest

    On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 19:22:16 +0100, Kurt Häusler <>
    wrote:
    >
    >Give up on the .rpm based distros. Try debian. you simply type in
    >apt-get update; apt-get dist-upgrade and its done. In the few cases
    >where an updated package wants to copy a new config file in, it gives
    >you options as to what you want to do.
    >

    Beware of dist-upgrade. Read and understand all the warnings. It will
    automatically upgrade packages, so be sure that you run it with -s to
    see what it will do first. I've given up on dist-upgrade. It can cause
    too many problems, though 80 - 90% of the time it works OK.

    Cheers,

    Cliff
    --

    The complete lack of evidence is the surest sign
    that the conspiracy is working.
     
    Enkidu, Nov 19, 2003
    #4
  5. bruce

    steve Guest

    Kurt Häusler allegedly said:

    > bruce wrote:
    >
    >> frankly downloading the 2Gb .iso's would be a waste of time for anyone
    >> satisfied with their existing installation. i cant find anything new but
    >> have found konsole and control centre gone.

    >
    > Give up on the .rpm based distros. Try debian. you simply type in
    > apt-get update; apt-get dist-upgrade and its done. In the few cases
    > where an updated package wants to copy a new config file in, it gives
    > you options as to what you want to do.


    Installing debian on a laptop could be "fun". Woody (latest version of
    debian 'stable') has a fairly lousy install by current standards. He'd be
    left to set up X and whatever else debian's install barfed on.

    Agreed absolutely once you get it on and everything is running it's pure
    magic.....but they REALLY need to ditch that install. Happily, a new and
    better installer is in beta....

    > If its a desktop system, try knoppix, its debian based and much more
    > user friendly than normal debian. Its primarily cd based so you can try
    > it out without affecting your hard drive. There are other debian based
    > distros that are also more friendly on the desktop than raw debian.


    I have done a hard drive install of Knoppix to my old IBM ThinkPad 600E
    (PII-300/96MB) and it ran very well - especially if I used Fluxbox or IceWM
    as the Window Manager rather than KDE. This worked well....and was probably
    the easiest Debian-based distro install - with the possible exception of
    Xandros 1.0....with is pret-tee cool.

    > I have also heard good things about source based distros, but havent
    > extensivly used one yet.


    I've installed Gentoo 1.4 on the same IBM laptop and that went fine. I did a
    stage 3 install.....so didn't build the entire system from the floor
    up...but did compile xfree and fluxbox and Mozilla....which too a while on
    the wee old thing. How hard to compile? Easy:

    'emerge mozilla'

    ....then wait for about 8-9 hours on my PII-300 with low RAM while it drags
    in all pre-reqs of the Internet and compiles them. The package management
    system on Gentoo is "Portage" (derived from doing a 'portage' with a canoe
    betwen two bodies of water) :)

    > But I really dislike the rpm based distros.


    I'm becoming the same way. Though....if you use apt-rpm, it effectively
    treats RPMs as though they were deb packages (as far as pre-reqs are
    concerned) and provides much of the ease of use that apt or portage are
    both famous and much appreciated for.

    It should be noted that the new "Fedora Core 1.0" (would have been Red Hat
    Linux 10) supports a variety of package management schemes.....including
    "YUM"....which I have never used before. I'm not sure you can use them
    interchangeably. You probably have to choose one and then stick with
    it....but at least you have the choice.

    --
    Best Regards,
    Steve Withers
    defenestrate: The act of throwing Windows out the window and replacing it on
    your PC with some other operating system.
     
    steve, Nov 19, 2003
    #5
  6. bruce

    harry Guest

    "steve" <> wrote in message
    news:UGRub.8385$...
    > Kurt Häusler allegedly said:
    >
    > > bruce wrote:
    > >
    > >> frankly downloading the 2Gb .iso's would be a waste of time for anyone
    > >> satisfied with their existing installation. i cant find anything new

    but
    > >> have found konsole and control centre gone.

    > >
    > > Give up on the .rpm based distros. Try debian. you simply type in
    > > apt-get update; apt-get dist-upgrade and its done. In the few cases
    > > where an updated package wants to copy a new config file in, it gives
    > > you options as to what you want to do.

    >
    > Installing debian on a laptop could be "fun". Woody (latest version of
    > debian 'stable') has a fairly lousy install by current standards. He'd be
    > left to set up X and whatever else debian's install barfed on.


    Its not that hard to do, at the end of the base install it prompts you to
    run tasksel and you select x-windows-system, and desktop-environment.
    After hearing all the negativity about this process, I did it, and couldn't
    figure out what all the fuss was about.
    You have to manually select what sort of video card, most people can tell
    what nv mga or ati mean.
    I think what we are getting from steve is gossip and hearsay, an excursion
    into hyperbole, not the words of actual experience.

    Heres a great article to guide you through a first Debian install
    http://tinyplanet.ca/projects/debian/



    > Agreed absolutely once you get it on and everything is running it's pure
    > magic.....but they REALLY need to ditch that install. Happily, a new and
    > better installer is in beta....
    >
    > > If its a desktop system, try knoppix, its debian based and much more
    > > user friendly than normal debian. Its primarily cd based so you can try
    > > it out without affecting your hard drive. There are other debian based
    > > distros that are also more friendly on the desktop than raw debian.

    >
    > I have done a hard drive install of Knoppix to my old IBM ThinkPad 600E
    > (PII-300/96MB) and it ran very well - especially if I used Fluxbox or

    IceWM
    > as the Window Manager rather than KDE. This worked well....and was

    probably
    > the easiest Debian-based distro install - with the possible exception of
    > Xandros 1.0....with is pret-tee cool.
    >
    > > I have also heard good things about source based distros, but havent
    > > extensivly used one yet.

    >
    > I've installed Gentoo 1.4 on the same IBM laptop and that went fine. I did

    a
    > stage 3 install.....so didn't build the entire system from the floor
    > up...but did compile xfree and fluxbox and Mozilla....which too a while on
    > the wee old thing. How hard to compile? Easy:
    >
    > 'emerge mozilla'
    >
    > ...then wait for about 8-9 hours on my PII-300 with low RAM while it drags
    > in all pre-reqs of the Internet and compiles them. The package management
    > system on Gentoo is "Portage" (derived from doing a 'portage' with a canoe
    > betwen two bodies of water) :)
    >


    Thats way harder than Debian
     
    harry, Nov 19, 2003
    #6
  7. bruce

    harry Guest

    "Enkidu" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 19:22:16 +0100, Kurt Häusler <>
    > wrote:
    > >
    > >Give up on the .rpm based distros. Try debian. you simply type in
    > >apt-get update; apt-get dist-upgrade and its done. In the few cases
    > >where an updated package wants to copy a new config file in, it gives
    > >you options as to what you want to do.
    > >

    > Beware of dist-upgrade. Read and understand all the warnings. It will
    > automatically upgrade packages, so be sure that you run it with -s to
    > see what it will do first. I've given up on dist-upgrade. It can cause
    > too many problems, though 80 - 90% of the time it works OK.
    >


    Theres an excellent guide to APT here, particularly the /etc/apt/apt.conf
    default release settings

    http://www.spack.org/index.cgi/AptHelp
     
    harry, Nov 19, 2003
    #7
  8. bruce

    Enkidu Guest

    On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 10:57:08 +1300, steve <> wrote:
    >
    >Installing debian on a laptop could be "fun". Woody (latest version of
    >debian 'stable') has a fairly lousy install by current standards. He'd be
    >left to set up X and whatever else debian's install barfed on.
    >

    Steve, this is FUD worthy only of IBM and Microsoft.

    I've installed many distros and Debian is one of the easier and better
    ones. I've started from floppies, downloaing everything and I've
    started from CD. No problems. No install barfs. Install X and it just
    runs.

    I've never tried Mandrake so I can't comment on that one. I've done
    many RH installs and they've been mostly trouble free. I've done
    slackware in the early days and that was not too bad.

    I've seen your posts about Debian. You appear to have had some
    problems with it and therefore decided to rubbish it. However that
    doesn't change the fact that 99.99..% of people who install Debian
    have no trouble.

    Cheers,

    Cliff
    --

    The complete lack of evidence is the surest sign
    that the conspiracy is working.
     
    Enkidu, Nov 19, 2003
    #8
  9. Enkidu wrote:

    > Steve, this is FUD worthy only of IBM and Microsoft.


    Hi. I agree totally with your post, I am also a staunch debian supporter.

    But what FUD have IBM been spreading? I know MS are guilty but IBM? They
    are pretty strong linux backers.
     
    Kurt Häusler, Nov 19, 2003
    #9
  10. bruce

    harry Guest

    "Kurt Häusler" <> wrote in message
    news:bpgv86$uf2$06$-online.com...
    > Enkidu wrote:
    >
    > > Steve, this is FUD worthy only of IBM and Microsoft.

    >
    > Hi. I agree totally with your post, I am also a staunch debian supporter.
    >
    > But what FUD have IBM been spreading? I know MS are guilty but IBM? They
    > are pretty strong linux backers.
    >


    Its a historical reference

    http://catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/F/FUD.html


    FUD: /fuhd/, n.
    Defined by Gene Amdahl after he left IBM to found his own company: "FUD is
    the fear, uncertainty, and doubt that IBM sales people instill in the minds
    of potential customers who might be considering [Amdahl] products." The
    idea, of course, was to persuade them to go with safe IBM gear rather than
    with competitors' equipment. This implicit coercion was traditionally
    accomplished by promising that Good Things would happen to people who stuck
    with IBM, but Dark Shadows loomed over the future of competitors' equipment
    or software.
     
    harry, Nov 20, 2003
    #10
  11. bruce

    steve Guest

    Enkidu allegedly said:

    > On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 10:57:08 +1300, steve <> wrote:
    >>
    >>Installing debian on a laptop could be "fun". Woody (latest version of
    >>debian 'stable') has a fairly lousy install by current standards. He'd be
    >>left to set up X and whatever else debian's install barfed on.
    >>

    > Steve, this is FUD worthy only of IBM and Microsoft.


    NO it isn't.

    Debian has been a pain in my arse every time I've tried it.

    Compared to a redHat or Mandrake install, it's well back in the pack.

    Statement of fact.....and that fact SHOULD cause some fear, uncertainty and
    doubt among new people to Linux....as it is entirely justified.

    > I've never tried Mandrake so I can't comment on that one.


    Then you won't know that the Mandrake install makes Debian look decidecly
    sub-standard in the install stakes.

    > I've done
    > many RH installs and they've been mostly trouble free. I've done
    > slackware in the early days and that was not too bad.


    Same here. Have you installed Red Hat 9.0 or Fedora Core 1.0? Again...they
    make debian look pretty sad.

    > I've seen your posts about Debian. You appear to have had some
    > problems with it and therefore decided to rubbish it.


    I report my experiences....if that's bad for Debian's image...tough.

    > However that
    > doesn't change the fact that 99.99..% of people who install Debian
    > have no trouble.


    Now that's bullshit if bullshit has been seen anywhere. Let's define
    install:

    OS on board, all devices functional, GUI up and running. Minimum of
    intervetion required by the user.

    Debian? No.

    --
    Best Regards,
    Steve Withers
    defenestrate: The act of throwing Windows out the window and replacing it on
    your PC with some other operating system.
     
    steve, Nov 20, 2003
    #11
  12. bruce

    steve Guest

    Kurt Häusler allegedly said:

    > Enkidu wrote:
    >
    >> Steve, this is FUD worthy only of IBM and Microsoft.

    >
    > Hi. I agree totally with your post, I am also a staunch debian supporter.


    My comments were from the perspective of a newbie....responding to "what
    linux should I put on my laptop".

    I would never recommend Debian (as on the Woody CD) to a Linux newbie.
    It would simply be cruel...and you'd lose the opportunity to win over
    someone to linux.

    If you have linux experience and understand how it's put together and how to
    pull together the pieces you need if they aren't there...then Debian is
    fine.

    Otherwise, start with Mandrake, Redhta/Fedora or maybe Xandros or
    Lindows....or any Linux that has an install experience similar to what a
    Windows user would be used to.

    Debian ain't it.

    --
    Best Regards,
    Steve Withers
    defenestrate: The act of throwing Windows out the window and replacing it on
    your PC with some other operating system.
     
    steve, Nov 20, 2003
    #12
  13. bruce

    steve Guest

    harry allegedly said:

    > I think what we are getting from steve is gossip and hearsay, an excursion
    > into hyperbole, not the words of actual experience.


    My comments are firmly rooted in my own experiences with Debian whereas your
    comments here are pure speculatation.

    Ironic.

    --
    Best Regards,
    Steve Withers
    defenestrate: The act of throwing Windows out the window and replacing it on
    your PC with some other operating system.
     
    steve, Nov 20, 2003
    #13
  14. bruce

    steve Guest

    harry allegedly said:

    > Its not that hard to do, at the end of the base install it prompts you to
    > run tasksel and you select x-windows-system, and desktop-environment.


    ....and a newbie to Linux will know what tasks to select?

    No.

    Tasksel is fine for people who already know Linux well...

    For newbies, it's "WTF?"

    Debian also doesn't support nForce2 on Woody....leaving a single-PC user
    with no network.

    I've been there many times now. I've never yet had a problem-free Debian
    install in 7 years.

    People keep saying how great it is.....and it turns to shit for me every
    time.

    --
    Best Regards,
    Steve Withers
    defenestrate: The act of throwing Windows out the window and replacing it on
    your PC with some other operating system.
     
    steve, Nov 20, 2003
    #14
  15. bruce

    Enkidu Guest

    On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 13:43:44 +1300, steve <> wrote:

    >Enkidu allegedly said:
    >
    >> On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 10:57:08 +1300, steve <> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>Installing debian on a laptop could be "fun". Woody (latest version of
    >>>debian 'stable') has a fairly lousy install by current standards. He'd be
    >>>left to set up X and whatever else debian's install barfed on.
    >>>

    >> Steve, this is FUD worthy only of IBM and Microsoft.

    >
    >NO it isn't.
    >
    >Debian has been a pain in my arse every time I've tried it.
    >

    .....and has worked smoothly every time I've tried it.
    >
    >Compared to a redHat or Mandrake install, it's well back in the pack.
    >
    >Statement of fact.....and that fact SHOULD cause some fear, uncertainty and
    >doubt among new people to Linux....as it is entirely justified.
    >

    I don't agree. It's different, but it's not hard.
    >
    >> I've never tried Mandrake so I can't comment on that one.

    >
    >Then you won't know that the Mandrake install makes Debian look decidecly
    >sub-standard in the install stakes.
    >

    What's so difficult about shoving a CD in the slot and following the
    prompts?
    >
    >> I've done
    >> many RH installs and they've been mostly trouble free. I've done
    >> slackware in the early days and that was not too bad.

    >
    >Same here. Have you installed Red Hat 9.0 or Fedora Core 1.0? Again...they
    >make debian look pretty sad.
    >
    >> I've seen your posts about Debian. You appear to have had some
    >> problems with it and therefore decided to rubbish it.

    >
    >I report my experiences....if that's bad for Debian's image...tough.
    >

    It's not a matter of "image". It's a matter of what is usual. I don't
    believe that your experience is usual in the case of Debian.

    I remember my first install of Debian from two flopies. I was
    expecting difficulties. Instead it went well. I believe that to be the
    more usual case.
    >
    >> However that
    >> doesn't change the fact that 99.99..% of people who install Debian
    >> have no trouble.

    >
    >Now that's bullshit if bullshit has been seen anywhere. Let's define
    >install:
    >
    >OS on board, all devices functional, GUI up and running. Minimum of
    >intervetion required by the user.
    >
    >Debian? No.


    [last word - this is going nowhere....Just like old times, eh,
    Steve??]

    Debian, yes, Slackware, yes, Redhat, yes, and Mandrake, yes.

    Cheers,

    Cliff

    --

    The complete lack of evidence is the surest sign
    that the conspiracy is working.
     
    Enkidu, Nov 20, 2003
    #15
  16. bruce

    Enkidu Guest

    On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 13:18:10 +1300, "harry" <> wrote:

    >
    >"Kurt Häusler" <> wrote in message
    >news:bpgv86$uf2$06$-online.com...
    >> Enkidu wrote:
    >>
    >> > Steve, this is FUD worthy only of IBM and Microsoft.

    >>
    >> Hi. I agree totally with your post, I am also a staunch debian supporter.
    >>
    >> But what FUD have IBM been spreading? I know MS are guilty but IBM? They
    >> are pretty strong linux backers.
    >>

    >
    >Its a historical reference
    >
    >http://catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/F/FUD.html
    >

    Bloody heck! Historical? History starts so recently these days!

    Cheers,

    Cliff
    --

    The complete lack of evidence is the surest sign
    that the conspiracy is working.
     
    Enkidu, Nov 20, 2003
    #16
  17. bruce

    harry Guest

    "Enkidu" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 13:18:10 +1300, "harry" <> wrote:
    >
    > >
    > >"Kurt Häusler" <> wrote in message
    > >news:bpgv86$uf2$06$-online.com...
    > >> Enkidu wrote:
    > >>
    > >> > Steve, this is FUD worthy only of IBM and Microsoft.
    > >>
    > >> Hi. I agree totally with your post, I am also a staunch debian

    supporter.
    > >>
    > >> But what FUD have IBM been spreading? I know MS are guilty but IBM?

    They
    > >> are pretty strong linux backers.
    > >>

    > >
    > >Its a historical reference
    > >
    > >http://catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/F/FUD.html
    > >

    > Bloody heck! Historical? History starts so recently these days!
    >

    1975 The first Amdahl replacement for the IBM 360/165 :)
    Thats when the FUD started.
    "Nobody ever got fired for buyng IBM......"
     
    harry, Nov 20, 2003
    #17
  18. bruce

    T.N.O. Guest

    Enkidu wrote:
    > However that
    > doesn't change the fact that 99.99..% of people who install Debian
    > have no trouble.


    even I had Debian on this machine for a while, and it was no trouble...
    but 99.99% I reckon it would have to be a higher %age have trouble.
     
    T.N.O., Nov 20, 2003
    #18
  19. bruce

    Jerry Guest

    On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 13:18:10 +1300, "harry" <> wrote:

    >
    >"Kurt Häusler" <> wrote in message
    >news:bpgv86$uf2$06$-online.com...
    >> Enkidu wrote:
    >>
    >> > Steve, this is FUD worthy only of IBM and Microsoft.

    >>
    >> Hi. I agree totally with your post, I am also a staunch debian supporter.
    >>
    >> But what FUD have IBM been spreading? I know MS are guilty but IBM? They
    >> are pretty strong linux backers.
    >>

    >
    >Its a historical reference
    >
    >http://catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/F/FUD.html
    >
    >
    >FUD: /fuhd/, n.
    >Defined by Gene Amdahl after he left IBM to found his own company: "FUD is
    >the fear, uncertainty, and doubt that IBM sales people instill in the minds
    >of potential customers who might be considering [Amdahl] products." The
    >idea, of course, was to persuade them to go with safe IBM gear rather than
    >with competitors' equipment. This implicit coercion was traditionally
    >accomplished by promising that Good Things would happen to people who stuck
    >with IBM, but Dark Shadows loomed over the future of competitors' equipment
    >or software.
    >


    Amdahl left IBM in 1970. The "old" IBM disintegrated in the 80s. Do
    you have a more current reference?

    Jerry
     
    Jerry, Nov 20, 2003
    #19
  20. bruce

    Jerry Guest

    On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 15:20:02 +1300, "harry" <> wrote:

    >
    >"Enkidu" <> wrote in message
    >news:...
    >> On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 13:18:10 +1300, "harry" <> wrote:
    >>
    >> >
    >> >"Kurt Häusler" <> wrote in message
    >> >news:bpgv86$uf2$06$-online.com...
    >> >> Enkidu wrote:
    >> >>
    >> >> > Steve, this is FUD worthy only of IBM and Microsoft.
    >> >>
    >> >> Hi. I agree totally with your post, I am also a staunch debian

    >supporter.
    >> >>
    >> >> But what FUD have IBM been spreading? I know MS are guilty but IBM?

    >They
    >> >> are pretty strong linux backers.
    >> >>
    >> >
    >> >Its a historical reference
    >> >
    >> >http://catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/F/FUD.html
    >> >

    >> Bloody heck! Historical? History starts so recently these days!
    >>

    >1975 The first Amdahl replacement for the IBM 360/165 :)
    >Thats when the FUD started.
    >"Nobody ever got fired for buyng IBM......"
    >


    There never was an IBM 360/165. There was a 370/165, but that was
    superceded in 1973 with the announcement of the system 370/168.
    Amdahl's first machine was a potential replacement for the 168

    Jerry
     
    Jerry, Nov 20, 2003
    #20
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