Looking for advice/opinion replacing Nikon 5700 with Nikon 8800, Please!

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by All Things Mopar, Feb 10, 2005.

  1. Hi, All!

    I'm in love with my 6 month-old Nikon Coolpix 5700 when
    shooting my favorite subject - car pictures - in daylight.
    I am completely dissasified with its flash performance not
    only with the puny Speedlight but also with the excellent
    Sunpak 433D Nikon-compatible external. I don't need to
    belabor that here, suffice to say the 5700 is going on
    eBay and I'm in the market for a new camera.

    I really do not want a DSLR, of any make or model. There's
    lots of reasons for this but size, weight, and the lack of
    an Electronic View Finder are all show stoppers for me.

    The 5700's 5 mega pixels is more than enough, but I'm
    looking at the 8800 because it has a brand new flash
    system (apparently)called iTTL. And, this time, I'm not
    gonna be penny wise and dollar fooling - I'm gonna buy
    Nikon's SB-600.

    My requirements are the same as most peoples: clear,
    sharp, noise-free, detailed, well exposed, great color,
    great camera features. Who doesn't want that stuff? 8 MP
    is just frosting on the cake. I don't like the 8800's
    maximum ISO 400, but I do like its vibration control,
    which may compensate for lack of ISO 800.

    I'm confident that the 8800 will work superbly for me in
    daylight. I don't know about flash. My local camera store
    will let me put the camera and flash on my Visa and give
    me 10 days to test drive it, so long as I don't open the
    CD, which is OK since I have a USB reader.

    I am not at all wed to Nikon. I've already started my
    research on the web, but still have a ways to go. What I'm
    asking of all the good people here is some opinions and
    advice from people that actually own a Nikon 8800 or
    competitive camera they recommend.

    My main flash problems are in the dank light of car
    museums where there're no walls or ceilings for the flash
    to reflect off.

    I am completely open-minded on make and model. I'd say my
    budget is $1,000, which is where the 8800 is, less a $100
    rebate. I understand that there's a major photo show in a
    couple of weeks, so the 8800 and its competitors may come
    down in price by the end of the month.

    I would appreciate advice and opinions. If I have been
    unclear as to my requirements, the problems I've had with
    the 5700 or why I'm anti-DSLR, I'll be glad to
    clarify/elaborate. I just wanted to keep my OP as short as
    possible.

    Thanks in advance for the help!

    --
    ATM, aka Jerry
     
    All Things Mopar, Feb 10, 2005
    #1
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  2. All Things Mopar

    Guest

    I think you sort of answered your own question - you say you really
    like the 5700 in daylight, so the camera is not likely to be the issue.
    Then you say you are disappointed with the flash performance, but you
    didn't really elaborate on what the problem was. Then you say you are
    shooting in the dark light of car museums with little in the way of
    reflective surfaces to use bounce techniques. (And those bounce
    techniques are not going to give you good results on something as big
    and as shiny as a car anyway - at least not with a single flash.) I
    don't think a new camera and one flash, no matter how powerful, is
    going to help that much.

    I'm no expert on this type of photography, but having seen pro's shoot
    vehicles at car shows - they either use a tripod and rely on the car
    presenters lighting, or they go to a s#%#load of trouble with multiple
    lights, some direct, some bounced, or even *huge* lightboxes. At the
    very least, I think you will be wanting a couple of slaved flashes on
    stands, or other more complex lighting arrangements.

    So don't be too disappointed if the 8800 doesn't meet your expectations
    either!
     
    , Feb 10, 2005
    #2
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  3. All Things Mopar

    Ben Thomas Guest

    Re: Looking for advice/opinion replacing Nikon 5700 with Nikon 8800,Please!

    All Things Mopar wrote:
    > Hi, All!
    >
    > I'm in love with my 6 month-old Nikon Coolpix 5700 when
    > shooting my favorite subject - car pictures - in daylight.
    > I am completely dissasified with its flash performance not
    > only with the puny Speedlight but also with the excellent
    > Sunpak 433D Nikon-compatible external. I don't need to
    > belabor that here, suffice to say the 5700 is going on
    > eBay and I'm in the market for a new camera.
    >
    > I really do not want a DSLR, of any make or model. There's
    > lots of reasons for this but size, weight, and the lack of
    > an Electronic View Finder are all show stoppers for me.
    >
    > The 5700's 5 mega pixels is more than enough, but I'm
    > looking at the 8800 because it has a brand new flash
    > system (apparently)called iTTL. And, this time, I'm not
    > gonna be penny wise and dollar fooling - I'm gonna buy
    > Nikon's SB-600.
    >
    > My requirements are the same as most peoples: clear,
    > sharp, noise-free, detailed, well exposed, great color,
    > great camera features. Who doesn't want that stuff? 8 MP
    > is just frosting on the cake. I don't like the 8800's
    > maximum ISO 400, but I do like its vibration control,
    > which may compensate for lack of ISO 800.
    >
    > I'm confident that the 8800 will work superbly for me in
    > daylight. I don't know about flash. My local camera store
    > will let me put the camera and flash on my Visa and give
    > me 10 days to test drive it, so long as I don't open the
    > CD, which is OK since I have a USB reader.
    >
    > I am not at all wed to Nikon. I've already started my
    > research on the web, but still have a ways to go. What I'm
    > asking of all the good people here is some opinions and
    > advice from people that actually own a Nikon 8800 or
    > competitive camera they recommend.
    >
    > My main flash problems are in the dank light of car
    > museums where there're no walls or ceilings for the flash
    > to reflect off.
    >
    > I am completely open-minded on make and model. I'd say my
    > budget is $1,000, which is where the 8800 is, less a $100
    > rebate. I understand that there's a major photo show in a
    > couple of weeks, so the 8800 and its competitors may come
    > down in price by the end of the month.
    >
    > I would appreciate advice and opinions. If I have been
    > unclear as to my requirements, the problems I've had with
    > the 5700 or why I'm anti-DSLR, I'll be glad to
    > clarify/elaborate. I just wanted to keep my OP as short as
    > possible.
    >
    > Thanks in advance for the help!
    >


    I'm really curious to know why you insist on an electronic viewfinder. Most info
    is availabe either in the optical viewfinder or mini LCD status screen on
    top/back of a digital SLR. The Pentax *ist DS is much smaller than the rest, and
    barely bigger than the prosumer P&Ss like the 8800. Go and have a play with one
    if you haven't already.

    --
    --
    Ben Thomas - Software Engineer - Melbourne, Australia

    My Digital World:
    Kodak DX6490, Canon i9950, Pioneer A05;
    Hitachi 37" HD plasma display, DGTEC 2000A,
    Denon 2800, H/K AVR4500, Whatmough Encore;
    Sony Ericsson K700i, Palm Tungsten T.

    Disclaimer:
    Opinions, conclusions, and other information in this message that do not
    relate to the official business of my employer shall be understood as neither
    given nor endorsed by it.
     
    Ben Thomas, Feb 10, 2005
    #3
  4. > I think you sort of answered your own question - you
    > say you really like the 5700 in daylight, so the
    > camera is not likely to be the issue.


    Yes, it is, I'm afraid...

    > Then you say you are disappointed with the flash
    > performance, but you didn't really elaborate on
    > what the problem was.


    This post wasn't to diagnose my flash problems, I've been
    there done that, including posting here, where Bob Rogers
    worked with me some, not to mention a couple of weeks with
    Nikon tech support on the phone and E-mail, and a trip to
    Nikon Service.

    I can describe what's going on for you, but that isn't
    going to change how I feel about the 5700. It's history.

    > Then you say you are shooting in the dark light
    > of car museums with little in the way of reflective
    > surfaces to use bounce techniques.


    I didn't say I tilted the flash head up for bounce flash,
    I just said there no close aboard walls or ceilings, as in
    a smaller room, for the flash to simply reflect back on
    the car. My 5700 works very well in small-to-moderate
    rooms, and it works quite well if I can fill the entire
    picture with the subject. The issue comes in when I want
    to include, say 30% of the picture with the background of
    the scene. Again, I'm not going to elaborate because
    that's not the point of this post, but when I allow lots
    of background into my photos, the 5700's flash sensor
    which controls the auto exposure system gets confused in
    an inconsistant manner. Enough of that...

    > I don't think a new camera and one flash, no matter
    > how powerful, is going to help that much.


    Please keep in mind that I've used the Sunpak with mixed
    results. It has a Guide Number of 120, which is plenty for
    30-35'. That's beyond the distance I shoot at so my flash
    is *not* the cause of the problem. And, I've proven to
    myself that I get completely correct exposures if I put
    the camera in manual and use the old GN / distance =
    f/stop at 1/125. What I want, though, is to get reliable
    auto flash exposures without having to diddle with manual
    controls on every picture.

    >
    > I'm no expert on this type of photography, but having
    > seen pro's shoot vehicles at car shows - they either
    > use a tripod and rely on the car presenters lighting,
    > or they go to a s#%#load of trouble with multiple
    > lights, some direct, some bounced, or even *huge*
    > lightboxes.


    Again, I thank for your observations. I know all that
    stuff you said, but don't want to do it. I'm not putting
    you down, but I didn't post this request to get a lesson
    in car show photography. I posted it because I want to
    dump the 5700 and I'm asking for personal experience with
    the Nikon 8800 in museum environments, or experience with
    a competitor's camera.

    I'm trying to make a judgement on what to buy. Posting
    here will provide some data points, I'll get more by
    reading dpreview.com, more data points from talking to
    camera store sales people, etc.

    I'm hoping to be as informed as I can before I buy. But,
    since I have 3 stores locally that'll give me a 10-day no-
    questions-asked charge refund, I'm protected. That's
    plenty of time to get to the two big car museums near me -
    The Henry Ford Museum and the Walter P. Museum. This is a
    lot like asking people what car to buy. After all the
    hoopla dies down, and the arguments about features,
    reliablity, test results, etc. are over, you really have
    to get in one, see if you're comfortable, and decide
    first-hand if you *like* the car. That's what I'm trying
    to do here.

    I'll know one way or another if the 8800 is acceptable in
    about a half-hour's shooting. And, I'll be using Nikon's
    own SB-600 flash so there won't be any bullshit argument
    out of Nikon that I'm screwed up because I have a non-
    compatible flash (which isn't the case).

    Besides chiding me for possible naievte and giving me
    photography lessons I didn't ask for, can you offer me
    some perspectives on how you believe an 8800 will perform
    vs. a 5700 under similar shooting conditions with similar
    lighting? If not, I thank again, and I'll move on to the
    10 day test drive.

    Cheers!

    --
    ATM, aka Jerry
     
    All Things Mopar, Feb 10, 2005
    #4
  5. Ben Thomas commented courteously ...

    > I'm really curious to know why you insist on an
    > electronic viewfinder. Most info is availabe either
    > in the optical viewfinder or mini LCD status screen on
    > top/back of a digital SLR. The Pentax *ist DS is much
    > smaller than the rest, and barely bigger than the
    > prosumer P&Ss like the 8800. Go and have a play
    > with one if you haven't already.


    You ask fair questions, Ben. Let me try to respond...

    You cannot see what the as-taken image looks like in an
    optical viewfinder, and the itty bitty LCD on the back is
    way to small to make more than gross judgements.

    For example, I can make an instant judgement with the EVF
    of my Nikon 5700 that tells me 1) is the exposure
    reasonable? 2) is the subject in focus? 3) do I have
    enough depth of field? 4) did I pick up a bad flash glare?
    5) did I accidently cut-off part of the subject by
    carelessness? 6) are there any unwanted but unexpected
    defects in the picture that could be alleviated by moving
    slightly?

    Besides those reasons, which are peculiar to my perhaps
    warped thinking, I want to have a long zoom lens which is
    relatively compact, and I don't want to have to buy
    several expensive lenses and lug them around. The days of
    trekking through Yellowstone Park with my Nikon FTN and 3
    lenses is over for me.

    That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it! So, As I
    mentioned in my other reply post, I certainly respect you
    for your knowledge, but what I'm looking for are
    experienced opinions of how an 8800 might perform in the
    peculiar flash situation I need to shoot in , vs. my 5700.

    In car terms, I might dismiss the entire genre of truck-
    based SUV, such as Chevy Tahoes, Ford Expeditions, or
    Dodge Durangos, in favor of a traditional 4-door sedan
    with good power, handling, and vehicle dynamics such as a
    HEMI 300C. That doesn't make the SUVs bad, they're not. I
    just don't want one. And, I don't want a DSLR.

    Thanks again for your observations.

    --
    ATM, aka Jerry
     
    All Things Mopar, Feb 10, 2005
    #5
  6. All Things Mopar

    SteveJ Guest

    Some of the DSLRs also have the same underexposure problems.
    Go for the 8800, but its noise is higher than your 5700, that is a given.


    "All Things Mopar" <> wrote in message
    news:Xns95F8D30207290ReplyToken@216.196.97.131...
    > Ben Thomas commented courteously ...
    >
    >> I'm really curious to know why you insist on an
    >> electronic viewfinder. Most info is availabe either
    >> in the optical viewfinder or mini LCD status screen on
    >> top/back of a digital SLR. The Pentax *ist DS is much
    >> smaller than the rest, and barely bigger than the
    >> prosumer P&Ss like the 8800. Go and have a play
    >> with one if you haven't already.

    >
    > You ask fair questions, Ben. Let me try to respond...
    >
    > You cannot see what the as-taken image looks like in an
    > optical viewfinder, and the itty bitty LCD on the back is
    > way to small to make more than gross judgements.
    >
    > For example, I can make an instant judgement with the EVF
    > of my Nikon 5700 that tells me 1) is the exposure
    > reasonable? 2) is the subject in focus? 3) do I have
    > enough depth of field? 4) did I pick up a bad flash glare?
    > 5) did I accidently cut-off part of the subject by
    > carelessness? 6) are there any unwanted but unexpected
    > defects in the picture that could be alleviated by moving
    > slightly?
    >
    > Besides those reasons, which are peculiar to my perhaps
    > warped thinking, I want to have a long zoom lens which is
    > relatively compact, and I don't want to have to buy
    > several expensive lenses and lug them around. The days of
    > trekking through Yellowstone Park with my Nikon FTN and 3
    > lenses is over for me.
    >
    > That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it! So, As I
    > mentioned in my other reply post, I certainly respect you
    > for your knowledge, but what I'm looking for are
    > experienced opinions of how an 8800 might perform in the
    > peculiar flash situation I need to shoot in , vs. my 5700.
    >
    > In car terms, I might dismiss the entire genre of truck-
    > based SUV, such as Chevy Tahoes, Ford Expeditions, or
    > Dodge Durangos, in favor of a traditional 4-door sedan
    > with good power, handling, and vehicle dynamics such as a
    > HEMI 300C. That doesn't make the SUVs bad, they're not. I
    > just don't want one. And, I don't want a DSLR.
    >
    > Thanks again for your observations.
    >
    > --
    > ATM, aka Jerry
     
    SteveJ, Feb 10, 2005
    #6
  7. SteveJ commented courteously ...

    > Some of the DSLRs also have the same underexposure
    > problems. Go for the 8800, but its noise is higher
    > than your 5700, that is a given.


    Thanks for the opine, Steve! Are you basing your belief
    that the 8800 is noisier on the fact that it is an early-
    generation Nikon 8 mega pixel, and new designs are often
    noisier than follow-on designs from the same manufacturer?

    And, do you consider the noise to be a show-stopper for
    subjects requiring low noise, fine detail, and sharpness,
    such as car pictures?

    I noticed that the 8800 has ISO 50, where my 5700 was 100
    min, so that should help. The 8800 doesn't go beyond ISO
    400, which bugs me, but I'll be doing flash far more often
    than available light either hand-held of with a tripod.

    --
    ATM, aka Jerry
     
    All Things Mopar, Feb 10, 2005
    #7
  8. All Things Mopar

    Harvey Guest

    "All Things Mopar" <> wrote in message
    news:Xns95F8D85758808ReplyToken@216.196.97.131...
    > SteveJ commented courteously ...
    >
    > > Some of the DSLRs also have the same underexposure
    > > problems. Go for the 8800, but its noise is higher
    > > than your 5700, that is a given.

    >
    > Thanks for the opine, Steve! Are you basing your belief
    > that the 8800 is noisier on the fact that it is an early-
    > generation Nikon 8 mega pixel, and new designs are often
    > noisier than follow-on designs from the same manufacturer?
    >
    > And, do you consider the noise to be a show-stopper for
    > subjects requiring low noise, fine detail, and sharpness,
    > such as car pictures?
    >
    > I noticed that the 8800 has ISO 50, where my 5700 was 100
    > min, so that should help. The 8800 doesn't go beyond ISO
    > 400, which bugs me, but I'll be doing flash far more often
    > than available light either hand-held of with a tripod.
    >


    Check out the Panasonic FZ20. It has a long flash range, and the lens does
    not extend forward much. Anti shake too.
     
    Harvey, Feb 10, 2005
    #8
  9. All Things Mopar

    Guest

    Thanks for the explanation. I can't read your mind, and if you re-read
    your post, I think you'll agree that my advice *could* have been
    correct, as you didn't mention the inconsistency issues - you just said
    you got poor results in dark venues. I did not `chide`, nor intend to,
    and I'm not sure how you read that into my post.

    As for the 'inconsistent confusion' that the 5700 encounters, I haven't
    seen or heard of this fault on that camera, so I won't try to comment
    on whether the 8800 and/or a different flash will help. I haven't
    noticed any similar issues with mine (Oly 8080), but I've only used it
    with a very ancient hammerhead flash in manual.

    (I might add that although I agree that the Panasonic DMC-FZ20
    recommended below is a very fine camera, it *does* get reported as
    occasionally having exposure issues, so maybe that might not be `the
    one` either!).
     
    , Feb 10, 2005
    #9
  10. > Thanks for the explanation. I can't read your mind,
    > and if you re-read your post, I think you'll
    > agree that my advice *could* have been correct,
    > as you didn't mention the inconsistency issues - you
    > just said you got poor results in dark venues.


    I don't think you and I are at odds, maybe just on
    adjacent lanes of the same highway.

    > I did not `chide`, nor intend to, and I'm not sure how
    > you read that into my post.


    No, you didn't chide. And, if I left you with my thinking
    of you that way, it was unintentional. Again, there're
    limits to how much is prudent to put into an OP or even a
    follow-up. Past some reasonably small amount of text,
    everyone will tune out. So, I didn't want to confuse the
    issue with people trying to figure out why I couldn't get
    good flash pictures. I just put a short paragraph in to
    say "I've fed up - need a new toy!".

    > As for the 'inconsistent confusion' that the 5700
    > encounters, I haven't seen or heard of this fault
    > on that camera, so I won't try to comment on whether
    > the 8800 and/or a different flash will help.


    Well, as best I've been able to determine after trying for
    over 5 months, damn few people are even alleging a defect.
    I think I've read maybe three posts alluding to flash
    problems where I thought the shooting situation was even
    similar to mine. Mainly, when I've enquired before - as I
    did on this NG a couple of times - the responses I got
    were very well thought out and indicative of people
    knowing more about this stuff than I did. Unfortunately,
    in the final analysis I didn't glean anything that I could
    hang my hat on, except that my technique is universally
    considered to be sub-optimal.

    You would know that, because you and I haven't talked
    about it, but I wasn't in the past and I'm not now asking
    for help in photographic technique to get better car
    pictures, I was asking earlier for help in trying to
    figure out why *specific* circumstances - smart or not -
    were causing trouble.

    But, I'm past that now. I'm still interested in personal
    testimonials but I'm pessimistic of getting them. Its just
    that some situations aren't all that common.

    So, again, I'm spreading a wide net past this NG to gain
    as much info I can, but in the final analysis, I'll find
    out through the school of hard knocks - the 8800 (or
    whatever I buy) will either do the job or not. If it does,
    I'm golden and I sell the 5700. If it doesn't, back to the
    store for a refund it goes.

    Since I'm knee deep in some pretty tall weeds, here, I'll
    dig myself in a deeper hole: My previous camera was a 2001
    FujiFilm 4900 4 mega pixel. It has an itty bitty built-in
    flash, also. Naturally, it never took anything approaching
    great pictures, but at the Detroit Auto Show, at three
    museums, at outdoor car shows where I was using flash as
    fill, and in new car dealers, the pictures might not have
    been good, but they were drop-dead consistant: light fell
    off as the square of increased distance if I tried to
    exeed that 10-12' max range of the flash.

    But, with the Fuji, I *never* got inconsistent exposures.
    And, to rule out an attack of early-onset Alzheimer's, I
    took my wife's $150 Kodak 6330 P & S to the WPC museum
    along with my 5700 and took a couple dozen identical
    situation pictures. The Nikon pics were sharper and more
    detailed, as you'd expect, but the cheapie Kodak beat the
    Nikon's brains out with highly consistent flash.

    So, I respectfully ask you (and the others), what am I
    missing here? I'm not the sharpest tool in the box, and I
    admit it, but I don't visualize myself as a drooling
    imbecile either (and, *NO*, I am *not* saying that you
    implied that!).

    I'm a retired DaimlerChrysler employee with company lease
    car priveledges, such as it is. Last fall, they gave us a
    special lease rate on base model Chrysler Crossfire
    coupes. I'm not making a political statement here, but I
    think it's a pretty good looking car. So, I went for a
    test drive.

    Turned out that it is quiet, handled well, performed
    adequately (if not spectacularly), but I *hated* it! There
    is no earthly way I could have discovered that by reading
    Motor Trend or watching Motor Trend TV or watching other
    Speed Channel shows that gushed on the car. It's a great
    car, I just didn't like if for my brand of driving.

    So, by analogy, the Nikon 5700 is a fine camera with
    excellent reviews and many happy owners, but not me. So,
    I'm gonna fix it by buying some I do like to drive.

    Thanks again for your many suggestions. As Mr. Spock used
    to say to Captain Kirk, "Sir, I shall consider it!"

    --
    ATM, aka Jerry
     
    All Things Mopar, Feb 10, 2005
    #10
  11. Harvey commented courteously ...

    > Check out the Panasonic FZ20. It has a long flash
    > range,and the lens does not extend forward much.
    > Anti shake too.


    Thanks for the heads-up Harvey! This is exactly why I
    posted my plea for advice. I will definitely investigate
    the Panasonic.

    --
    ATM, aka Jerry
     
    All Things Mopar, Feb 10, 2005
    #11
  12. All Things Mopar

    Ed Ruf Guest

    On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 18:13:25 -0600, in rec.photo.digital All Things Mopar
    <> wrote:

    >I really do not want a DSLR, of any make or model. There's
    >lots of reasons for this but size, weight, and the lack of
    >an Electronic View Finder are all show stoppers for me.


    >My main flash problems are in the dank light of car
    >museums where there're no walls or ceilings for the flash
    >to reflect off.


    A dslr with usable high iso and a fast lens would not necessarily require a
    flash in such situations. Just a thought.
    ----------
    Ed Ruf Lifetime AMA# 344007 ()
    See images taken with my CP-990/5700 & D70 at
    http://edwardgruf.com/Digital_Photography/General/index.html
     
    Ed Ruf, Feb 10, 2005
    #12
  13. Ed Ruf commented courteously ...

    > A dslr with usable high iso and a fast lens
    > would not necessarily require a flash in such
    > situations. Just a thought.


    That is obviously correct, Ed. At a car show like the 2005
    North American Internation Auto Show in Detroit, what you
    say is entirely true - it is *very* bright. I missed it
    this year, but if I had something like a Canon 20D, I'd
    definitely shoot available light, but I'd probably also
    carry along an external flash for fill, and see if that
    helps or hinders.

    I see from your sig that you own a 5700. You really can't
    shoot available light with that (at least not mine!)
    because at ISO 800, my pictures look like beach sand
    paintings. I can tell from your suggestion that you're
    doing my kind of shooting with your D70. But, have you
    tried the 5700 with competant flash?
    The Walter P. Chrysler Museum is 15 minutes from me and I
    get in free because I'm a Chrysler retiree, so I go there
    often. Unlike many museums, lighting is "normal" most
    places.

    It has some unique challenges, though. For example, there
    are large windows on two walls on the 1st and second
    floors. They park cars in front of them. I go in late
    afternoon to shoot the back-lit cars, and change from
    "matrix" to "spot" metering.

    Other places in the WPC are pretty dark. Then, the
    basement display has a mixture of both incandescent and
    fluorescent lighting! How the dickens do you set white
    balance for that?

    The Henry Ford Museum, 45 minutes from me and $16 bucks a
    pop is so dark that it makes a beer joint bright! I could
    get by hand-held at maybe ISO 800 or 1600 at the WPC, but
    I'd definitely need a tripod at the HF.

    One last comment: I like my pictures bright and contrasty.
    I know how to do that with the camera but prefer to do it
    in Paint Shop Pro 9 so I can see the changes. The NAIAS
    car show is bright enough that contrast isn't that much of
    a problem. The WPC is marginal on contrast, but again, the
    HF is dismal. Available light pictures look flat and
    uninteresting, with color balance problems even when set
    for incandescent.

    Anyway, thank you for the suggestion, and you have a great
    day, hear?!

    --
    ATM, aka Jerry
     
    All Things Mopar, Feb 10, 2005
    #13
  14. All Things Mopar

    Nige Guest

    "Ben Thomas" <> wrote in message
    news:iiaeuc.2pu.ln@192.168.11.2...
    > All Things Mopar wrote:
    >> Hi, All!
    >>
    >> I'm in love with my 6 month-old Nikon Coolpix 5700 when shooting my
    >> favorite subject - car pictures - in daylight. I am completely
    >> dissasified with its flash performance not only with the puny Speedlight
    >> but also with the excellent Sunpak 433D Nikon-compatible external. I
    >> don't need to belabor that here, suffice to say the 5700 is going on eBay
    >> and I'm in the market for a new camera.
    >>
    >> I really do not want a DSLR, of any make or model. There's lots of
    >> reasons for this but size, weight, and the lack of an Electronic View
    >> Finder are all show stoppers for me.
    >>
    >> The 5700's 5 mega pixels is more than enough, but I'm looking at the 8800
    >> because it has a brand new flash system (apparently)called iTTL. And,
    >> this time, I'm not gonna be penny wise and dollar fooling - I'm gonna buy
    >> Nikon's SB-600.
    >>
    >> My requirements are the same as most peoples: clear, sharp, noise-free,
    >> detailed, well exposed, great color, great camera features. Who doesn't
    >> want that stuff? 8 MP is just frosting on the cake. I don't like the
    >> 8800's maximum ISO 400, but I do like its vibration control, which may
    >> compensate for lack of ISO 800.
    >>
    >> I'm confident that the 8800 will work superbly for me in daylight. I
    >> don't know about flash. My local camera store will let me put the camera
    >> and flash on my Visa and give me 10 days to test drive it, so long as I
    >> don't open the CD, which is OK since I have a USB reader.
    >>
    >> I am not at all wed to Nikon. I've already started my research on the
    >> web, but still have a ways to go. What I'm asking of all the good people
    >> here is some opinions and advice from people that actually own a Nikon
    >> 8800 or competitive camera they recommend.
    >>
    >> My main flash problems are in the dank light of car museums where
    >> there're no walls or ceilings for the flash to reflect off.
    >>
    >> I am completely open-minded on make and model. I'd say my budget is
    >> $1,000, which is where the 8800 is, less a $100 rebate. I understand that
    >> there's a major photo show in a couple of weeks, so the 8800 and its
    >> competitors may come down in price by the end of the month.
    >>
    >> I would appreciate advice and opinions. If I have been unclear as to my
    >> requirements, the problems I've had with the 5700 or why I'm anti-DSLR,
    >> I'll be glad to clarify/elaborate. I just wanted to keep my OP as short
    >> as possible.
    >>
    >> Thanks in advance for the help!
    >>

    >
    > I'm really curious to know why you insist on an electronic viewfinder.
    > Most info is availabe either in the optical viewfinder or mini LCD status
    > screen on top/back of a digital SLR. The Pentax *ist DS is much smaller
    > than the rest, and barely bigger than the prosumer P&Ss like the 8800. Go
    > and have a play with one if you haven't already.
    >
    > --
    > --
    > Ben Thomas - Software Engineer - Melbourne, Australia
    >
    > My Digital World:
    > Kodak DX6490, Canon i9950, Pioneer A05;
    > Hitachi 37" HD plasma display, DGTEC 2000A,
    > Denon 2800, H/K AVR4500, Whatmough Encore;
    > Sony Ericsson K700i, Palm Tungsten T.
    >
    > Disclaimer:
    > Opinions, conclusions, and other information in this message that do not
    > relate to the official business of my employer shall be understood as
    > neither
    > given nor endorsed by it.
     
    Nige, Feb 10, 2005
    #14
  15. Nige commented courteously ...

    Sorry to top-post, but Huh? I'm not following what you
    posted...

    >
    > "Ben Thomas" <> wrote in message
    > news:iiaeuc.2pu.ln@192.168.11.2...
    >> All Things Mopar wrote:
    >>> Hi, All!
    >>>
    >>> I'm in love with my 6 month-old Nikon Coolpix 5700

    when
    >>> shooting my favorite subject - car pictures - in
    >>> daylight. I am completely dissasified with its flash
    >>> performance not only with the puny Speedlight but also
    >>> with the excellent Sunpak 433D Nikon-compatible

    external.
    >>> I don't need to belabor that here, suffice to say the
    >>> 5700 is going on eBay and I'm in the market for a new
    >>> camera.
    >>>
    >>> I really do not want a DSLR, of any make or model.
    >>> There's lots of reasons for this but size, weight, and
    >>> the lack of an Electronic View Finder are all show
    >>> stoppers for me.
    >>>
    >>> The 5700's 5 mega pixels is more than enough, but I'm
    >>> looking at the 8800 because it has a brand new flash
    >>> system (apparently)called iTTL. And, this time, I'm

    not
    >>> gonna be penny wise and dollar fooling - I'm gonna buy
    >>> Nikon's SB-600.
    >>>
    >>> My requirements are the same as most peoples: clear,
    >>> sharp, noise-free, detailed, well exposed, great

    color,
    >>> great camera features. Who doesn't want that stuff? 8

    MP
    >>> is just frosting on the cake. I don't like the 8800's
    >>> maximum ISO 400, but I do like its vibration control,
    >>> which may compensate for lack of ISO 800.
    >>>
    >>> I'm confident that the 8800 will work superbly for me

    in
    >>> daylight. I don't know about flash. My local camera

    store
    >>> will let me put the camera and flash on my Visa and

    give
    >>> me 10 days to test drive it, so long as I don't open

    the
    >>> CD, which is OK since I have a USB reader.
    >>>
    >>> I am not at all wed to Nikon. I've already started my
    >>> research on the web, but still have a ways to go. What
    >>> I'm asking of all the good people here is some

    opinions
    >>> and advice from people that actually own a Nikon 8800

    or
    >>> competitive camera they recommend.
    >>>
    >>> My main flash problems are in the dank light of car
    >>> museums where there're no walls or ceilings for the

    flash
    >>> to reflect off.
    >>>
    >>> I am completely open-minded on make and model. I'd say

    my
    >>> budget is $1,000, which is where the 8800 is, less a

    $100
    >>> rebate. I understand that there's a major photo show

    in a
    >>> couple of weeks, so the 8800 and its competitors may

    come
    >>> down in price by the end of the month.
    >>>
    >>> I would appreciate advice and opinions. If I have been
    >>> unclear as to my requirements, the problems I've had

    with
    >>> the 5700 or why I'm anti-DSLR, I'll be glad to
    >>> clarify/elaborate. I just wanted to keep my OP as

    short
    >>> as possible.
    >>>
    >>> Thanks in advance for the help!
    >>>

    >>
    >> I'm really curious to know why you insist on an

    electronic
    >> viewfinder. Most info is availabe either in the optical
    >> viewfinder or mini LCD status screen on top/back of a
    >> digital SLR. The Pentax *ist DS is much smaller than

    the
    >> rest, and barely bigger than the prosumer P&Ss like the
    >> 8800. Go and have a play with one if you haven't

    already.
    >>
    >> --
    >> --
    >> Ben Thomas - Software Engineer - Melbourne, Australia
    >>
    >> My Digital World:
    >> Kodak DX6490, Canon i9950, Pioneer A05;
    >> Hitachi 37" HD plasma display, DGTEC 2000A,
    >> Denon 2800, H/K AVR4500, Whatmough Encore;
    >> Sony Ericsson K700i, Palm Tungsten T.
    >>
    >> Disclaimer:
    >> Opinions, conclusions, and other information in this
    >> message that do not relate to the official business of

    my
    >> employer shall be understood as neither
    >> given nor endorsed by it.

    >
    >
    >




    --
    ATM, aka Jerry
     
    All Things Mopar, Feb 10, 2005
    #15
  16. All Things Mopar

    Nige Guest

    ???


    "All Things Mopar" <> wrote in message
    news:Xns95F9526F36DFCReplyToken@216.196.97.131...
    > Nige commented courteously ...
    >
    > Sorry to top-post, but Huh? I'm not following what you
    > posted...
    >
    >>
    >> "Ben Thomas" <> wrote in message
    >> news:iiaeuc.2pu.ln@192.168.11.2...
    >>> All Things Mopar wrote:
    >>>> Hi, All!
    >>>>
    >>>> I'm in love with my 6 month-old Nikon Coolpix 5700

    > when
    >>>> shooting my favorite subject - car pictures - in
    >>>> daylight. I am completely dissasified with its flash
    >>>> performance not only with the puny Speedlight but also
    >>>> with the excellent Sunpak 433D Nikon-compatible

    > external.
    >>>> I don't need to belabor that here, suffice to say the
    >>>> 5700 is going on eBay and I'm in the market for a new
    >>>> camera.
    >>>>
    >>>> I really do not want a DSLR, of any make or model.
    >>>> There's lots of reasons for this but size, weight, and
    >>>> the lack of an Electronic View Finder are all show
    >>>> stoppers for me.
    >>>>
    >>>> The 5700's 5 mega pixels is more than enough, but I'm
    >>>> looking at the 8800 because it has a brand new flash
    >>>> system (apparently)called iTTL. And, this time, I'm

    > not
    >>>> gonna be penny wise and dollar fooling - I'm gonna buy
    >>>> Nikon's SB-600.
    >>>>
    >>>> My requirements are the same as most peoples: clear,
    >>>> sharp, noise-free, detailed, well exposed, great

    > color,
    >>>> great camera features. Who doesn't want that stuff? 8

    > MP
    >>>> is just frosting on the cake. I don't like the 8800's
    >>>> maximum ISO 400, but I do like its vibration control,
    >>>> which may compensate for lack of ISO 800.
    >>>>
    >>>> I'm confident that the 8800 will work superbly for me

    > in
    >>>> daylight. I don't know about flash. My local camera

    > store
    >>>> will let me put the camera and flash on my Visa and

    > give
    >>>> me 10 days to test drive it, so long as I don't open

    > the
    >>>> CD, which is OK since I have a USB reader.
    >>>>
    >>>> I am not at all wed to Nikon. I've already started my
    >>>> research on the web, but still have a ways to go. What
    >>>> I'm asking of all the good people here is some

    > opinions
    >>>> and advice from people that actually own a Nikon 8800

    > or
    >>>> competitive camera they recommend.
    >>>>
    >>>> My main flash problems are in the dank light of car
    >>>> museums where there're no walls or ceilings for the

    > flash
    >>>> to reflect off.
    >>>>
    >>>> I am completely open-minded on make and model. I'd say

    > my
    >>>> budget is $1,000, which is where the 8800 is, less a

    > $100
    >>>> rebate. I understand that there's a major photo show

    > in a
    >>>> couple of weeks, so the 8800 and its competitors may

    > come
    >>>> down in price by the end of the month.
    >>>>
    >>>> I would appreciate advice and opinions. If I have been
    >>>> unclear as to my requirements, the problems I've had

    > with
    >>>> the 5700 or why I'm anti-DSLR, I'll be glad to
    >>>> clarify/elaborate. I just wanted to keep my OP as

    > short
    >>>> as possible.
    >>>>
    >>>> Thanks in advance for the help!
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>> I'm really curious to know why you insist on an

    > electronic
    >>> viewfinder. Most info is availabe either in the optical
    >>> viewfinder or mini LCD status screen on top/back of a
    >>> digital SLR. The Pentax *ist DS is much smaller than

    > the
    >>> rest, and barely bigger than the prosumer P&Ss like the
    >>> 8800. Go and have a play with one if you haven't

    > already.
    >>>
    >>> --
    >>> --
    >>> Ben Thomas - Software Engineer - Melbourne, Australia
    >>>
    >>> My Digital World:
    >>> Kodak DX6490, Canon i9950, Pioneer A05;
    >>> Hitachi 37" HD plasma display, DGTEC 2000A,
    >>> Denon 2800, H/K AVR4500, Whatmough Encore;
    >>> Sony Ericsson K700i, Palm Tungsten T.
    >>>
    >>> Disclaimer:
    >>> Opinions, conclusions, and other information in this
    >>> message that do not relate to the official business of

    > my
    >>> employer shall be understood as neither
    >>> given nor endorsed by it.

    >>
    >>
    >>

    >
    >
    >
    > --
    > ATM, aka Jerry
     
    Nige, Feb 10, 2005
    #16
  17. All Things Mopar

    Ed Ruf Guest

    On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 05:30:26 -0600, in rec.photo.digital All Things Mopar
    <> wrote:

    >Ed Ruf commented courteously ...
    >
    >> A dslr with usable high iso and a fast lens
    >> would not necessarily require a flash in such
    >> situations. Just a thought.


    >I see from your sig that you own a 5700. You really can't
    >shoot available light with that (at least not mine!)
    >because at ISO 800, my pictures look like beach sand
    >paintings.


    I find 400 quite usable with the use of Neat Image to help filter the
    noise. For something like you are taking about you can also make use of BSS
    to cope with getting the best shot at slow shutter speeds. I've gotten
    shots down as low as 1/4 sec ( DSCN9395.JPG) in the Cradle of Aviation
    Museum
    http://edwardgruf.com/Digital_Photography/CP_990/Wide/reduced/index.htm
    In many instances of the planes I wanted to capture the lighting as it was.
    Typically, I don't do a lot of flash photos.

    I can tell from your suggestion that you're
    >doing my kind of shooting with your D70. But, have you
    >tried the 5700 with competant flash?


    No. I do a lot of low light shooting that can't be done with flash too
    well. Wildlife and indoor/night racing with long focal lengths. So for this
    I look to bump iso up and use as fast a lens as possible. I started with a
    990 and the TC-3x converter, went to the 5700 and TC1.5 and found it
    lacking. I couldn't get the shutter speeds I needed. Hence the get a fast
    lens and bump the iso. Over Christmas I shot my 7 yr old nephew's school
    Christmas pageant with no flash using my D70 and 70-200 f/2.8 stabilized
    lens. I had to push the iso on this. But I prefer that to flash, myself
    along with my other needs. I do shoot raw, admittedly a PIA with the 5700
    given the 20-22 sec it takes to write to the card.

    The 8800 is stabilized, but it's still not fast, especially if you zoom in
    at all.

    >It has some unique challenges, though. For example, there
    >are large windows on two walls on the 1st and second
    >floors. They park cars in front of them. I go in late
    >afternoon to shoot the back-lit cars, and change from
    >"matrix" to "spot" metering.


    Yep, and your gonna blow out the windows probably it it's bright outside.

    >Other places in the WPC are pretty dark. Then, the
    >basement display has a mixture of both incandescent and
    >fluorescent lighting! How the dickens do you set white
    >balance for that?


    The real answer for that is raw where you can then easily change the WB
    when you process it.

    >The Henry Ford Museum, 45 minutes from me and $16 bucks a
    >pop is so dark that it makes a beer joint bright! I could
    >get by hand-held at maybe ISO 800 or 1600 at the WPC, but
    >I'd definitely need a tripod at the HF.


    See my CAV pics mentioned above, pretty slow shutter speeds. If you have a
    Nikon P&S BSS is definitely your friend in these situations. Also if
    possible shoot off the hip. I did this all the time with the swivel head
    990, not as much help with the 5700.

    >One last comment: I like my pictures bright and contrasty.
    >I know how to do that with the camera but prefer to do it
    >in Paint Shop Pro 9 so I can see the changes. The NAIAS
    >car show is bright enough that contrast isn't that much of
    >a problem. The WPC is marginal on contrast, but again, the
    >HF is dismal. Available light pictures look flat and
    >uninteresting, with color balance problems even when set
    >for incandescent.


    Again, sounds like a call for using raw capabilities.
    ----------
    Ed Ruf Lifetime AMA# 344007 ()
    See images taken with my CP-990/5700 & D70 at
    http://edwardgruf.com/Digital_Photography/General/index.html
     
    Ed Ruf, Feb 10, 2005
    #17
  18. All Things Mopar

    Ed Ruf Guest

    On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 21:52:12 -0600, in rec.photo.digital All Things Mopar
    <> wrote:


    >So, I respectfully ask you (and the others), what am I
    >missing here? I'm not the sharpest tool in the box, and I
    >admit it, but I don't visualize myself as a drooling
    >imbecile either (and, *NO*, I am *not* saying that you
    >implied that!).


    The sensor is just to the side and below the flash. As such I would think
    it can be blocked from light coming below by the lens. Also if you look
    closely it is set back a fair amount from the surface. As such it's field
    of view is limited some by this. How much I don't know, but your problems
    with wider angle shots would seem to imply this might be a pertinent issue.
    ----------
    Ed Ruf Lifetime AMA# 344007 ()
    See images taken with my CP-990/5700 & D70 at
    http://edwardgruf.com/Digital_Photography/General/index.html
     
    Ed Ruf, Feb 10, 2005
    #18
  19. Ed Ruf commented courteously ...

    > I find 400 quite usable with the use of Neat Image
    > to help filter the noise.


    I haven't tried that one, but I've used PSP 9's
    outstanding DCNR, but even this impressive filter has a
    tough time.

    > The 8800 is stabilized, but it's still not fast,
    > especially if you zoom in at all.


    Ed, sometimes I think I've got the most peculiar
    requirements and personal preferences on this NG. Luckily
    for me, the cars I shoot aren't moving, so if there's
    shutter lag or other nasty stuff, it doesn't bother me.

    But, being hyper-active, I'm too damn impatient to set up
    a tripod and shoot available light. I guess you could say
    I sacrifice a lot of quality to get quantity.

    But, being neither a pro nor even an advanced amateur
    photographer, most of my pictures satisfy me. I
    characterize my pictures as "documentary" rather than
    photographically aesthetic, so I can get by with things
    like a single flash mounted on top the camera when all the
    talented people, like you, just cringe.

    The good news, though, is today's digital camera market is
    plenty deep and wide for everyone from a current user of
    1-time Kodaks to someone who makes their living with
    digital.

    And, with reference to RAW, I have a rudimentary
    understanding of why it is advantageous, but the 80/20
    rule and the law of dimishing returns enters into it, and
    I don't currently visualize enough advantage to RAW to
    compensate for the big file sizes and slower graphics
    manipulation. But, my opinion on that may well change
    sometime in the future...

    Thanks for your suggestions.

    --
    ATM, aka Jerry
     
    All Things Mopar, Feb 11, 2005
    #19
  20. All Things Mopar

    Ed Ruf Guest

    On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 20:23:34 -0600, in rec.photo.digital All Things Mopar
    <> wrote:

    >Ed Ruf commented courteously ...
    >
    >> I find 400 quite usable with the use of Neat Image
    >> to help filter the noise.

    >
    >I haven't tried that one, but I've used PSP 9's
    >outstanding DCNR, but even this impressive filter has a
    >tough time.


    I've given it a try being a PSP7/8 user for a long time, but never liked it
    compared to NI and stayed with PSP8.

    >> The 8800 is stabilized, but it's still not fast,
    >> especially if you zoom in at all.

    >
    >Ed, sometimes I think I've got the most peculiar
    >requirements and personal preferences on this NG. Luckily
    >for me, the cars I shoot aren't moving, so if there's
    >shutter lag or other nasty stuff, it doesn't bother me.


    You might consider the Panasonic with the stabilized fast f/2.8 lens. IIRC,
    it's only 5 mp. David Taylor of this and the zlr groups speaks of it having
    moved to it after a 5700.
    ----------
    Ed Ruf Lifetime AMA# 344007 ()
    See images taken with my CP-990/5700 & D70 at
    http://edwardgruf.com/Digital_Photography/General/index.html
     
    Ed Ruf, Feb 11, 2005
    #20
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