Longevity of CDRs

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Mary, Sep 11, 2003.

  1. Mary

    Mary Guest

    Anyone know the longevity of CDRs? I am using them as backups for my digital
    photos.

    Mary
     
    Mary, Sep 11, 2003
    #1
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  2. Enough <> writes:

    > In article <3f60a88a$0$65922$-net.com>,
    > "Mary" <> wrote:
    >
    > > Anyone know the longevity of CDRs?

    >
    > They live till they die.


    That is unfortunately true. Kodak has made some claims for the
    longevity of their Gold Ultima CDRs (since discontinued), but they do
    depend on storage, and the original writer being properly adjusted,
    and they're also the result of accelerated testing. Still, being
    willing to make a claim is something. Kodak claims 120 years for
    those if stored on edge in jewel cases at decent temps.

    *I* want to know similar data for DVD-R, having finally broken down
    and bought one (CDs are too bleeding small).
    --
    David Dyer-Bennet, <>, <www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
    RKBA: <noguns-nomoney.com> <www.dd-b.net/carry/>
    Photos: <dd-b.lighthunters.net> Snapshots: <www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
    Dragaera mailing lists: <dragaera.info/>
     
    David Dyer-Bennet, Sep 11, 2003
    #2
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  3. Mary

    Tom Guest

    "Tony Spadaro" <> wrote in message
    news:xL58b.20241$...
    > I have some almost 5 years old now that are still readable without

    problems
    > in every player I've tried. Those who predict they won't last any time at
    > all are probably just as stupid as those who predict they will outlive
    > civilization as we know it.



    The problem is... no one *really* does know, do they? Until the technology
    has *actually* been around for 50 years, not a soul on earth can say for
    certain they will last that long.

    Accelerated aging processes are little better than WAG's (Wild Ass Guesses).
    Of course, for the next 50 years or so, that's all we have. :)

    Tom
     
    Tom, Sep 11, 2003
    #3
  4. Mary

    WebKatz Guest

    "Johnny Noshoes" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Thu, 11 Sep 2003 12:59:13 -0400, "Mary"
    > <> wrote:
    >
    > >Anyone know the longevity of CDRs? I am using them as backups for my

    digital
    > >photos.
    > >
    > >Mary
    > >

    > In my job we use CDRs to archive video in mpeg1 format. We started
    > doing this in March of 1997. Unless a disc has become badly scratched
    > they've held up fine so far.
    >


    What brand/type are you using?
     
    WebKatz, Sep 12, 2003
    #4
  5. Mary

    kay Guest

    At an extreme, Mitsui Archival is rated for 400 years (should outlast the
    format by a long shot). Stay away from no-name brands (have had one of
    those disintegrate in only a few months), permanent markers (ink will
    permeate the cd and react with the dye layer) and UV light (especially the
    sun, which can trash the best CD-R in only a few hours).
    Check the website of the brands you're interested in, they'll often give a
    longevity estimate.

    "Mary" <> wrote in message
    news:3f60a88a$0$65922$-net.com...
    > Anyone know the longevity of CDRs? I am using them as backups for my

    digital
    > photos.
    >
    > Mary
    >
    >
     
    kay, Sep 12, 2003
    #5
  6. Mary

    sombody Guest

    Mary wrote:
    > Anyone know the longevity of CDRs? I am using them as backups for my digital
    > photos.
    >
    > Mary
    >
    >


    http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/54/32593.html
    PC Active tested data disks from 30 manufacturers that were recorded 20
    months ago. Several data CDs developed serious errors, or became
    virtually unreadable. .........

    Some manufacturers claim that their CDs are good for at least 10 years,
    if you keep them out of the sunlight. Some even say that their CDs will
    last up to a century; but the Dutch test seems to suggest that CD-R is
    the wrong medium to store photos, music or data files for posterity. It
    makes you wonder how the various DVD disk formats stack up.
     
    sombody, Sep 12, 2003
    #6
  7. Mary

    David Chien Guest

    Mitsui Gold and other brands of discs from 1995 on have mostly survived
    dark storage here. Only three discs have encountered disc rot out of
    several hundreds of discs stored. All are playable/readable at this time.

    All were stored in CaseLogic CD sleeves in boxes in a closet. Besides
    that, no additional measures were taken to prevent damage due to
    atmospheric conditions.

    --

    Thus, while nobody knows for sure since CD-R discs have not been out for
    more than about 10 years, you can expect most discs to last at least 5-8
    years without problems.

    Light exposure and degredation is the #1 killer of discs, so leaving
    them out in sunlight will result in rapid degeneration of these CD-Rs no
    matter how good they are --- all of the dye compounds deteriorate under
    sunlight. But, p.cyanine (light green) dyes are the most resistant to
    deterioration under lab tests (vs. azo (dark to medium blue/purple) and
    cyanine (light blue)).

    --

    One thing is true - libraries and archivists aren't depending on optical
    media to last forever either, so don't expect CD-Rs to.

    As for DVDs, expect the same. While the dye layer is better protected
    than on CD-Rs (CD-Rs have scratchable top layer where the dye is; DVD-R
    is sandwiched between two plastic layers), many people have experienced
    DVD disc rot (search for such on Yahoo.com) already.

    --

    Best bet?

    Knowing that nobody has 12" floppy discs anymore (or the drives and
    computers to read them), best to migrate all data from older media to
    newer media every 5-10 years. That way, you avoid any deterioration of
    data, and you can always read the data decades from now.


    ---

    beyond that, even the free-after-rebate cheapie CD-Rs have been doing
    fine in storage for several years.

    but if you're really, really worried, Mitsui Gold CD-R discs are the
    only ones to use.
     
    David Chien, Sep 12, 2003
    #7
  8. Mary

    Alice Gless Guest

    Alice Gless, Sep 12, 2003
    #8
  9. Mary

    Chrys Guest

    "kay" <> wrote in news:JDd8b.123108$kP.4672@fed1read03:

    > At an extreme, Mitsui Archival is rated for 400 years (should outlast
    > the format by a long shot). Stay away from no-name brands (have had
    > one of those disintegrate in only a few months), permanent markers
    > (ink will permeate the cd and react with the dye layer)

    *snipped rest of message*
    What brands have you had this happen on? I've 5 year old cdrs covered
    with writing from Sharpies, etc, that work just fine. Or perhaps I should
    ask which type of markers are you using?
    -Chrys
    --
    http://www.fotolog.net/celticchrys
     
    Chrys, Sep 12, 2003
    #9
  10. Mary

    Guest

    Re: Longevity of CDRs <MARY>

    Mary, Probably as long as a 78 rpm vinal record. They will last long
    enough to
    re-copy them to what ever is the latest thing in 5 or 10 yrs.
    Like the 78 rpm's it will be a mater of finding something to play them
    on.
    IMHO ~
    ~THOM~

    http://home.earthlink.net/~thom_b_foto
     
    , Sep 13, 2003
    #10
  11. Mary

    Paul H. Guest

    "Tom Thackrey" <> wrote in message
    news:qxs8b.13$...
    >
    > On 11-Sep-2003, "kay" <> wrote:
    >
    > > At an extreme, Mitsui Archival is rated for 400 years (should outlast

    the
    > > format by a long shot). Stay away from no-name brands (have had one of
    > > those disintegrate in only a few months), permanent markers (ink will
    > > permeate the cd and react with the dye layer) and UV light (especially

    the
    > > sun, which can trash the best CD-R in only a few hours).
    > > Check the website of the brands you're interested in, they'll often give

    a
    > > longevity estimate.

    >
    > I thought it was the washable ink that caused problems not the permanent.


    For CD-R's and CD-R/W's, the dye layer--the layer to which the data bits are
    physically written--lies immediately under the label area, which is usually
    just a thin layer of paint. It has been suggested that the solvent used in
    permanent markers *may* leach through the paint into the dye layer and
    corrupt data by dissolving parts of the dye layer. Some have even suggested
    it may takes months for the leaching-through to occur, so completely and
    successfully verifying the data on a CD immediately after labelling with a
    permanent marker cannot tell you if the data-corruption process has begun or
    not; all such a verification procedure can do is say something about the
    state of the data at the time the test is performed. Water-based inks, on
    the other hand, purportedly find the painted surface of the label area
    impenetrable and thus present no danger to the dye layer, so the data won't
    be corrupted.

    These are the conjectures, at any rate. I don't know anyone who's actually
    demonstrated data loss is indisputably linked to permanent markers, but the
    arguments seem quite reasonable to me, given my experience with similar
    things over the years. So why take chances now that water-based markers
    are available and cheap? I love my Sharpies, but I love my photos more.
     
    Paul H., Sep 13, 2003
    #11
  12. "Paul H." <> writes:

    > These are the conjectures, at any rate. I don't know anyone who's
    > actually demonstrated data loss is indisputably linked to permanent
    > markers, but the arguments seem quite reasonable to me, given my
    > experience with similar things over the years. So why take chances
    > now that water-based markers are available and cheap? I love my
    > Sharpies, but I love my photos more.


    I have seen a CD-R that you could clearly see the interaction between
    the ink and the dye layer. It was totally unreadable for all practicle
    purposes.

    --
    Paul Repacholi 1 Crescent Rd.,
    +61 (08) 9257-1001 Kalamunda.
    West Australia 6076
    comp.os.vms,- The Older, Grumpier Slashdot
    Raw, Cooked or Well-done, it's all half baked.
    EPIC, The Architecture of the future, always has been, always will be.
     
    Paul Repacholi, Sep 14, 2003
    #12
  13. "Tom" <> wrote in message
    news:Gy68b.418679$o%2.189741@sccrnsc02...
    >
    > "Tony Spadaro" <> wrote in message
    > news:xL58b.20241$...
    > > I have some almost 5 years old now that are still readable without

    > problems
    > > in every player I've tried. Those who predict they won't last any time at
    > > all are probably just as stupid as those who predict they will outlive
    > > civilization as we know it.

    >
    >
    > The problem is... no one *really* does know, do they? Until the technology
    > has *actually* been around for 50 years, not a soul on earth can say for
    > certain they will last that long.
    >
    > Accelerated aging processes are little better than WAG's (Wild Ass Guesses).
    > Of course, for the next 50 years or so, that's all we have. :)

    ....

    Sure, for most of us, it's easy enough to make at least 2 copies of everything.
    If in 3 to 5 years, I haven't upgraded to another storage form (DVD?), I'll make
    another copy.

    Wash, rinse, repeat.


    --
    Dan (Woj...) dmaster (at) lucent (dot) com

    "When children have to play inside so they don't disappear
    While private eyes solve marriage lies cause we dont talk for years
    And football teams are kissing queens and losing sight of having dreams
    In a world where all we want is only what we want until it's ours"
     
    Dan Wojciechowski, Sep 16, 2003
    #13
  14. Mary

    Kay Guest

    Pentel Film marker PM403, very permanent.

    "Chrys" <> wrote in message
    news:Xns93F49E5E231DEsome1somewherenet@199.45.49.11...
    > "kay" <> wrote in news:JDd8b.123108$kP.4672@fed1read03:
    >
    > > At an extreme, Mitsui Archival is rated for 400 years (should outlast
    > > the format by a long shot). Stay away from no-name brands (have had
    > > one of those disintegrate in only a few months), permanent markers
    > > (ink will permeate the cd and react with the dye layer)

    > *snipped rest of message*
    > What brands have you had this happen on? I've 5 year old cdrs covered
    > with writing from Sharpies, etc, that work just fine. Or perhaps I should
    > ask which type of markers are you using?
    > -Chrys
    > --
    > http://www.fotolog.net/celticchrys
    >
     
    Kay, Sep 19, 2003
    #14
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