Living tax-free in NZ

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by Bruce Simpson, Jan 9, 2004.

  1. After my recent run-in with the taxman, I have decided to try a new
    tack.

    I am about to spend a lot of time (the one resource I now have plenty
    of) in revamping my Aardvark website.

    As well as the existing daily commentary and Net-industry news
    aggregation, I'll be adding a raft of other news (general/current
    affairs, science, etc), some audio feeds, a significantly enhanced
    discussion/forums system, regular new feature articles and reviews,
    etc.

    All of this will be published completely free of charge and free of
    paid advertising.

    What I will be doing however, is accepting "monetary gifts" through
    the site -- my hope being that people will come to the site and think
    to themselves "this guy's working hard and producing something I
    consider to be valuable so I'll gift him a little money."

    This won't be a donation or a payment -- it will be a gift, as
    recently defined to me by the IRD who say it is anything of value
    which is given unconditionally and not in return for any service,
    product or other consideration.

    Although there will be a "gift" button on the website, the
    contribution of a gift will in no way entitled the giver to any
    product, service or other benefit or entitlement -- hence it will be a
    pure gift and tehrefore (according to the IRD themselves) non-taxable.

    Also, since I'm not able to be a company director or be self-employed
    for the next three years, this will not be a business venture --
    simply something to consume my otherwise spare time.

    Now the IRD/government has two options here:

    1. They can dispute the "gift" status of money given to me through
    this website (even though it qualifies by their own definitions as a
    gift) and therefore spend even more taxpayer's money testing this in
    court -- an action I will defend using taxpayers' money via the legal
    aid system)

    or

    2. They can accept that by doing this I won't need to draw an
    unemployment benefit and so the net result of allowing any gifts
    received to considered tax-free (as they should be) will result in a
    net positive outcome for the taxpayer. One only has to work out how
    much I'd receive by way of the dole versus how much would be lost by
    not taxing my gifts to see which is the best option for the taxpayer's
    pocket.

    I figure that if I can create a website that convinces just 2000-3000
    people to gift me just $10 a year then I can "survive" without paying
    tax and without burdening the taxpayer.

    Of course there's also the risk that, even if the site becomes wildly
    successful, in terms of traffic and its content, only a handful of
    people will choose to send me a gift and I won't be able to survive.
    However, I've got to do something with my energies and I'd rather do
    something positive that contributes to NZ than just waste away
    watching TV and spending other taxpayers' money by way of the dole.

    Of course the prospect of filing a tax return in which I show no
    taxable income -- but claim enough donations to charitable
    organisations that *they* have to send me a cheque has a certain
    appeal to it too :)

    What do you think?

    Am I wasting my time? Am I poking a tiger with a stick? Should I
    simply sit back and enjoy a three-year holiday at the taxpayers'
    expense instead?

    And what would *you* like to see on the Aardvark website? What would
    it take to make Aardvark a regular feature on your bookmark list?

    --
    you can contact me via http://aardvark.co.nz/contact/
     
    Bruce Simpson, Jan 9, 2004
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. Bruce Simpson

    Jay Guest

    Bruce Simpson wrote:

    > This won't be a donation or a payment -- it will be a gift, as
    > recently defined to me by the IRD who say it is anything of value
    > which is given unconditionally and not in return for any service,
    > product or other consideration.


    Haven't you heard of gift duty?
    You are not allowed to give money away in NZ.
    You will pay tax.

    Also, deliberate attempts to evade tax will attract severe punishment.

    But I think you will deserve it, mainly because you have already declared
    an intention to defraud the public purse. And now we all have your IP
    address, and it doesn't take a genius to work out who you are.

    If you haven't already been bankrupted then I reckon it wont take long.
     
    Jay, Jan 9, 2004
    #2
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  3. Bruce Simpson

    KS Guest

    Bruce, have a look at

    www.investigatemagazine.com and the Feb 2000 issue. It looked at NZ tax
    issues (well it took US tax issues and gave it a NZ angle).

    It's good for a laugh.
     
    KS, Jan 9, 2004
    #3
  4. Bruce Simpson

    John Sefton Guest

    "Jay" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Bruce Simpson wrote:
    >
    > > This won't be a donation or a payment -- it will be a gift, as
    > > recently defined to me by the IRD who say it is anything of value
    > > which is given unconditionally and not in return for any service,
    > > product or other consideration.

    >
    > Haven't you heard of gift duty?
    > You are not allowed to give money away in NZ.
    > You will pay tax.
    >
    > Also, deliberate attempts to evade tax will attract severe punishment.
    >
    > But I think you will deserve it, mainly because you have already declared
    > an intention to defraud the public purse. And now we all have your IP
    > address, and it doesn't take a genius to work out who you are.
    >
    > If you haven't already been bankrupted then I reckon it wont take long.


    Oh, grow up!
     
    John Sefton, Jan 9, 2004
    #4
  5. Bruce Simpson

    Barry Phease Guest

    On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 21:34:58 +1300, Bruce Simpson wrote:


    > Although there will be a "gift" button on the website, the
    > contribution of a gift will in no way entitled the giver to any
    > product, service or other benefit or entitlement -- hence it will be a
    > pure gift and tehrefore (according to the IRD themselves) non-taxable.


    The fact that you are spending money (hosting fees/ISP fees) to put
    information on the website would probably count against you. That could
    be seen as a service to your donors. (A bit like busking - which is
    taxable).

    > Of course the prospect of filing a tax return in which I show no taxable
    > income -- but claim enough donations to charitable organisations that
    > *they* have to send me a cheque has a certain appeal to it too :)


    I don't think it works like that. I don't think you can claim more than
    you pay unless you are a business, and even then they don't send you
    money, you can only hold it against a future tax bill.

    >
    > What do you think?


    I hope it works for you, but if you get more than a few thousand dollars
    I expect the IRD will investigate.

    >
    > Am I wasting my time? Am I poking a tiger with a stick? Should I
    > simply sit back and enjoy a three-year holiday at the taxpayers' expense
    > instead?


    There are other alternatives. :)

    >
    > And what would *you* like to see on the Aardvark website? What would it
    > take to make Aardvark a regular feature on your bookmark list?


    Good question! I guess real information that is hard to find anywhere
    else. Perhaps statistics that are hard to find for future pointless
    usenet arguments (about crime rates, tax rates etc across different
    countries). :)

    --
    Barry Phease

    mailto://
    http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~barryp
     
    Barry Phease, Jan 9, 2004
    #5
  6. Bruce Simpson

    Dave Joll Guest

    "Jay" <> wrote

    > Bruce Simpson wrote:


    > > This won't be a donation or a payment -- it will be a gift, as
    > > recently defined to me by the IRD who say it is anything of value
    > > which is given unconditionally and not in return for any service,
    > > product or other consideration.


    > Haven't you heard of gift duty?
    > You are not allowed to give money away in NZ.
    > You will pay tax.


    Gift duty is payable by the giver, not the receiver; and
    is (as far as I can recall) only payable if the total value
    of gifts given by one person exceeds something like
    $27,000 in one year.

    However it may count as income for tax purposes...
    Bruce, you'd better get something in writing from the
    IRD (and from someone fairly high up within it) if
    you don't want the buggers breathing down your neck.

    - Dave
    --
    Lowering the tone of Usenet since 1997...

    Please send replies to New Zealand instead of Zanzibar.
    Sorry, but the spam is just getting a little too much...
     
    Dave Joll, Jan 9, 2004
    #6
  7. Bruce Simpson

    K & S Guest

    On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 19:44:06 +1100, Jay <> wrote:

    >Bruce Simpson wrote:
    >
    >> This won't be a donation or a payment -- it will be a gift, as
    >> recently defined to me by the IRD who say it is anything of value
    >> which is given unconditionally and not in return for any service,
    >> product or other consideration.

    >
    >Haven't you heard of gift duty?
    >You are not allowed to give money away in NZ.
    >You will pay tax.
    >
    >Also, deliberate attempts to evade tax will attract severe punishment.
    >
    >But I think you will deserve it, mainly because you have already declared
    >an intention to defraud the public purse. And now we all have your IP
    >address, and it doesn't take a genius to work out who you are.
    >
    >If you haven't already been bankrupted then I reckon it wont take long.
    >




    Why does he not get a job, like most of us..
     
    K & S, Jan 9, 2004
    #7
  8. Bruce Simpson

    KS Guest

    > Why does he not get a job, like most of us..

    ****, that's rich coming from you.

    "Mr ACC handout how shall I spend my new large payout ohh should it be a new
    video card ??"

    At least Bruce doesn't run around claiming he knows everything, unlike you,
    you stupid braindead child.
     
    KS, Jan 9, 2004
    #8
  9. Bruce Simpson

    K & S Guest

    On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 09:55:09 GMT, (Matthew Poole) wrote:

    >In article <>, Jay <> wrote:
    >>Bruce Simpson wrote:

    >*SNIP*
    >>Haven't you heard of gift duty?

    >I'm sure he has.
    >
    >>You are not allowed to give money away in NZ.

    >Yes, you are. I suggest you look at the laws. There's NOTHING to stop
    >you giving money away. I could give money to my cat if I so desired.
    >
    >>You will pay tax.
    >>

    >No, he won't. You're not an accountant, or a tax lawyer. You're an
    >ex-pat Kiwi (and I'm ashamed of that association) who thinks he knows it
    >all but is actually a long way out of his depth.
    >
    >>Also, deliberate attempts to evade tax will attract severe punishment.
    >>

    >Only if you're evading tax that should rightfully have been paid.
    >Bruce's plan does not attract tax.
    >
    >>But I think you will deserve it, mainly because you have already declared
    >>an intention to defraud the public purse. And now we all have your IP
    >>address, and it doesn't take a genius to work out who you are.
    >>

    >We know who Bruce is. He lives in Whangaparoa (or thereabouts). He's
    >an internationally-known inventor, who has unfortunately run afoul of
    >the IRD through no real fault of his own.
    >
    >>If you haven't already been bankrupted then I reckon it wont take long.
    >>

    >**** you're an asshole. Were you born that way, or did you have to
    >practice?




    Please overseas readers take no notice of the cretin the biggest mole here.


    One of the many Usenet bullies here.
     
    K & S, Jan 9, 2004
    #9
  10. In article <>, Jay <> wrote:
    >Bruce Simpson wrote:

    *SNIP*
    >Haven't you heard of gift duty?

    I'm sure he has.

    >You are not allowed to give money away in NZ.

    Yes, you are. I suggest you look at the laws. There's NOTHING to stop
    you giving money away. I could give money to my cat if I so desired.

    >You will pay tax.
    >

    No, he won't. You're not an accountant, or a tax lawyer. You're an
    ex-pat Kiwi (and I'm ashamed of that association) who thinks he knows it
    all but is actually a long way out of his depth.

    >Also, deliberate attempts to evade tax will attract severe punishment.
    >

    Only if you're evading tax that should rightfully have been paid.
    Bruce's plan does not attract tax.

    >But I think you will deserve it, mainly because you have already declared
    >an intention to defraud the public purse. And now we all have your IP
    >address, and it doesn't take a genius to work out who you are.
    >

    We know who Bruce is. He lives in Whangaparoa (or thereabouts). He's
    an internationally-known inventor, who has unfortunately run afoul of
    the IRD through no real fault of his own.

    >If you haven't already been bankrupted then I reckon it wont take long.
    >

    **** you're an asshole. Were you born that way, or did you have to
    practice?

    --
    Matthew Poole Auckland, New Zealand
    "Veni, vidi, velcro...
    I came, I saw, I stuck around"

    My real e-mail is mattATp00leDOTnet
     
    Matthew Poole, Jan 9, 2004
    #10
  11. On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 22:11:45 +1300, Barry Phease <>
    wrote:

    >> Although there will be a "gift" button on the website, the
    >> contribution of a gift will in no way entitled the giver to any
    >> product, service or other benefit or entitlement -- hence it will be a
    >> pure gift and tehrefore (according to the IRD themselves) non-taxable.

    >
    >The fact that you are spending money (hosting fees/ISP fees) to put
    >information on the website would probably count against you. That could
    >be seen as a service to your donors. (A bit like busking - which is
    >taxable).


    It looks as if I'll be getting the hosting for free and since I, like
    millions of other Kiwis, use my ISP connection for a range of things,
    I don't think they could hold that against me (although that doesn't
    mean they wouldn't try).

    >> Of course the prospect of filing a tax return in which I show no taxable
    >> income -- but claim enough donations to charitable organisations that
    >> *they* have to send me a cheque has a certain appeal to it too :)

    >
    >I don't think it works like that. I don't think you can claim more than
    >you pay unless you are a business, and even then they don't send you
    >money, you can only hold it against a future tax bill.


    Yes, you're right -- the amount claimed in deductible donations can't
    exceed your income or $630 -- whichever is the lower. That's not a
    problem though because I still have my ChCh Press column that returns
    not much more than that and on which I pay provisional tax at about
    24% I believe. So -- not only will I get a rebate on the difference
    between the lowest taxable rate (19.5%?) and the provisional amount
    paid, but if I donate $640 of that money to charity I can also get a
    rebate on 19.5% of that amount as well.

    >> And what would *you* like to see on the Aardvark website? What would it
    >> take to make Aardvark a regular feature on your bookmark list?

    >
    >Good question! I guess real information that is hard to find anywhere
    >else. Perhaps statistics that are hard to find for future pointless
    >usenet arguments (about crime rates, tax rates etc across different
    >countries). :)


    There *will* be a political section -- albeit that I'll probably host
    that over at politics.co.nz


    --
    you can contact me via http://aardvark.co.nz/contact/
     
    Bruce Simpson, Jan 9, 2004
    #11
  12. On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 19:44:06 +1100, Jay <> wrote:

    >Bruce Simpson wrote:
    >
    >> This won't be a donation or a payment -- it will be a gift, as
    >> recently defined to me by the IRD who say it is anything of value
    >> which is given unconditionally and not in return for any service,
    >> product or other consideration.

    >
    >Haven't you heard of gift duty?


    Yes I have. -- but it's a tax levied against the giver of the gift,
    not the recipient. And it also doesn't apply unless the giver has
    given over $27,000 in any financial year. No, I don't expect *anyone*
    to gift even 0.1% of that amount so it shouldn't result in anyone
    paying gift duty.

    >You are not allowed to give money away in NZ.


    Yes you are -- or are you suggesting that when Grandma sends little
    Johnny a birthday card with a $20 note in it she's risking
    prosectution by the IRD?

    >You will pay tax.


    No I won't -- did you pay tax on your Christmas presents??

    >Also, deliberate attempts to evade tax will attract severe punishment.


    That's true -- but since I will not be running a business and not
    charging for any service, product or other consideration -- I won't be
    evading tax.

    >But I think you will deserve it, mainly because you have already declared
    >an intention to defraud the public purse. And now we all have your IP
    >address, and it doesn't take a genius to work out who you are.


    Gosh, that's true -- but it obviously takes a lot more intelligence
    than you've got.

    >If you haven't already been bankrupted then I reckon it wont take long.


    Do some research -- find out who I am and the background to my
    situation.

    --
    you can contact me via http://aardvark.co.nz/contact/
     
    Bruce Simpson, Jan 9, 2004
    #12
  13. Bruce Simpson

    Craig Sutton Guest

    "Bruce Simpson" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > After my recent run-in with the taxman, I have decided to try a new
    > tack.
    >
    > I am about to spend a lot of time (the one resource I now have plenty
    > of) in revamping my Aardvark website.
    >
    >

    How about PornVark ?

    with some lovelly ladies who will do anything to get people clicking that
    gift button :)
     
    Craig Sutton, Jan 9, 2004
    #13
  14. In article <>,
    Bruce Simpson <> wrote:

    >2. They can accept that by doing this I won't need to draw an
    >unemployment benefit and so the net result of allowing any gifts
    >received to considered tax-free (as they should be) will result in a
    >net positive outcome for the taxpayer. One only has to work out how
    >much I'd receive by way of the dole versus how much would be lost by
    >not taxing my gifts to see which is the best option for the taxpayer's
    >pocket.


    That makes sense ... which means they couldn't possibly allow it to work.
     
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Jan 9, 2004
    #14
  15. Bruce Simpson

    Sue Bilstein Guest

    "Bruce Simpson" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > After my recent run-in with the taxman, I have decided to try a new
    > tack.
    >

    ....
    > What I will be doing however, is accepting "monetary gifts" through
    > the site -- my hope being that people will come to the site and think
    > to themselves "this guy's working hard and producing something I
    > consider to be valuable so I'll gift him a little money."
    >
    > This won't be a donation or a payment -- it will be a gift, as
    > recently defined to me by the IRD who say it is anything of value
    > which is given unconditionally and not in return for any service,
    > product or other consideration.
    >


    What about starting an online church? (Are ministers and churches
    tax-exempt here?)
     
    Sue Bilstein, Jan 9, 2004
    #15
  16. Bruce Simpson

    K & S Guest

    On Fri, 9 Jan 2004 22:21:35 +1300, "KS" <> wrote:

    >> Why does he not get a job, like most of us..

    >
    >****, that's rich coming from you.
    >
    >"Mr ACC handout how shall I spend my new large payout ohh should it be a new
    >video card ??"
    >
    >At least Bruce doesn't run around claiming he knows everything, unlike you,
    >you stupid braindead child.
    >



    I do have a Job you know, and ACC Only paid me what I was entitled to..

    Are you jealous or some thing as it does sound like that..
     
    K & S, Jan 9, 2004
    #16
  17. Bruce Simpson

    K & S Guest

    On Fri, 9 Jan 2004 22:21:35 +1300, "KS" <> wrote:

    >> Why does he not get a job, like most of us..

    >
    >****, that's rich coming from you.
    >
    >"Mr ACC handout how shall I spend my new large payout ohh should it be a new
    >video card ??"




    That was in the Bank and saved up for before I even got any money frm ACC,
    seems to me you just can't save..?




    >At least Bruce doesn't run around claiming he knows everything, unlike you,
    >you stupid braindead child.
    >
     
    K & S, Jan 9, 2004
    #17
  18. On Fri, 9 Jan 2004 22:12:03 +1300, "Dave Joll" <>
    wrote:

    >However it may count as income for tax purposes...
    >Bruce, you'd better get something in writing from the
    >IRD (and from someone fairly high up within it) if
    >you don't want the buggers breathing down your neck.


    Written opinions from the IRD are generally not worth the paper
    they're written on and are, from what I've read, non-binding.

    I would really like to see whether they have the best interests of
    taxpayers in mind -- and this is one way to check that out. If they
    are prepared to spend a small fortune (of taxpayer's money) to
    prosecute me while I'm doing my best to *avoid* being a drain on the
    public purse then I think it would say a lot -- not that their actions
    haven't said a lot already.

    Besides which -- what can they do? Send me a bill for $x,000 and
    bankrupt me if I don't pay?

    I already have a verbal assurance from the dept (time/date of the call
    and the helpdesk respondent's name carefully noted in my diary) so I
    think it's fair to say that I am acting in good faith on the basis of
    information given to me by the IRD.

    --
    you can contact me via http://aardvark.co.nz/contact/
     
    Bruce Simpson, Jan 9, 2004
    #18
  19. Bruce Simpson

    Jason M Guest

    On Fri, 09 Jan 2004 23:33:57 +1300, Bruce Simpson
    <> wrote:

    >On Fri, 9 Jan 2004 22:12:03 +1300, "Dave Joll" <>
    >wrote:
    >
    >>However it may count as income for tax purposes...
    >>Bruce, you'd better get something in writing from the
    >>IRD (and from someone fairly high up within it) if
    >>you don't want the buggers breathing down your neck.

    >
    >Written opinions from the IRD are generally not worth the paper
    >they're written on and are, from what I've read, non-binding.
    >
    >I would really like to see whether they have the best interests of
    >taxpayers in mind -- and this is one way to check that out. If they
    >are prepared to spend a small fortune (of taxpayer's money) to
    >prosecute me while I'm doing my best to *avoid* being a drain on the
    >public purse then I think it would say a lot -- not that their actions
    >haven't said a lot already.
    >
    >Besides which -- what can they do? Send me a bill for $x,000 and
    >bankrupt me if I don't pay?


    I know of a bankrupt guy who went to jail for months for just signing
    a document while he thought he was working as an employee, so you need
    to be very careful of that.

    >I already have a verbal assurance from the dept (time/date of the call
    >and the helpdesk respondent's name carefully noted in my diary) so I
    >think it's fair to say that I am acting in good faith on the basis of
    >information given to me by the IRD.


    They will probably have recorded the call, and so should you have.
     
    Jason M, Jan 9, 2004
    #19
  20. Bruce Simpson

    LAR Guest

    Bruce Simpson wrote:

    > After my recent run-in with the taxman, I have decided to try a new
    > tack.
    >
    > I am about to spend a lot of time (the one resource I now have plenty
    > of) in revamping my Aardvark website.
    >
    > As well as the existing daily commentary and Net-industry news
    > aggregation, I'll be adding a raft of other news (general/current
    > affairs, science, etc), some audio feeds, a significantly enhanced
    > discussion/forums system, regular new feature articles and reviews,
    > etc.
    >
    > All of this will be published completely free of charge and free of
    > paid advertising.
    >
    > What I will be doing however, is accepting "monetary gifts" through
    > the site -- my hope being that people will come to the site and think
    > to themselves "this guy's working hard and producing something I
    > consider to be valuable so I'll gift him a little money."
    >
    > This won't be a donation or a payment -- it will be a gift, as
    > recently defined to me by the IRD who say it is anything of value
    > which is given unconditionally and not in return for any service,
    > product or other consideration.
    >
    > Although there will be a "gift" button on the website, the
    > contribution of a gift will in no way entitled the giver to any
    > product, service or other benefit or entitlement -- hence it will be a
    > pure gift and tehrefore (according to the IRD themselves) non-taxable.
    >
    > Also, since I'm not able to be a company director or be self-employed
    > for the next three years, this will not be a business venture --
    > simply something to consume my otherwise spare time.
    >
    > Now the IRD/government has two options here:
    >
    > 1. They can dispute the "gift" status of money given to me through
    > this website (even though it qualifies by their own definitions as a
    > gift) and therefore spend even more taxpayer's money testing this in
    > court -- an action I will defend using taxpayers' money via the legal
    > aid system)
    >
    > or
    >
    > 2. They can accept that by doing this I won't need to draw an
    > unemployment benefit and so the net result of allowing any gifts
    > received to considered tax-free (as they should be) will result in a
    > net positive outcome for the taxpayer. One only has to work out how
    > much I'd receive by way of the dole versus how much would be lost by
    > not taxing my gifts to see which is the best option for the taxpayer's
    > pocket.
    >
    > I figure that if I can create a website that convinces just 2000-3000
    > people to gift me just $10 a year then I can "survive" without paying
    > tax and without burdening the taxpayer.
    >
    > Of course there's also the risk that, even if the site becomes wildly
    > successful, in terms of traffic and its content, only a handful of
    > people will choose to send me a gift and I won't be able to survive.
    > However, I've got to do something with my energies and I'd rather do
    > something positive that contributes to NZ than just waste away
    > watching TV and spending other taxpayers' money by way of the dole.
    >
    > Of course the prospect of filing a tax return in which I show no
    > taxable income -- but claim enough donations to charitable
    > organisations that *they* have to send me a cheque has a certain
    > appeal to it too :)
    >
    > What do you think?
    >
    > Am I wasting my time? Am I poking a tiger with a stick? Should I
    > simply sit back and enjoy a three-year holiday at the taxpayers'
    > expense instead?
    >
    > And what would *you* like to see on the Aardvark website? What would
    > it take to make Aardvark a regular feature on your bookmark list?
    >
    > --
    > you can contact me via http://aardvark.co.nz/contact/


    A gift of free bandwidth would be great don't you think? ;-)
     
    LAR, Jan 9, 2004
    #20
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