Linux with friendly app installs - Finally Apple should be worried?

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by Alan, Jul 27, 2009.

  1. Alan

    Alan Guest

    http://blogs.computerworld.com/node/14432/print

    "There's really nothing that hard about installing programs on Linux.
    Anyone who still uses shell commands like say, "apt-get install
    some-program-or-the-other," is doing so because they want to do it
    that way, not because they have to. Programs like Debian and Ubuntu's
    Synaptic, Fedora's yum or openSUSE's YaST makes installing programs
    little more than a matter of point and click. Still, some people have
    trouble, so Ubuntu is reviving a dusty, old project, AppCenter so that
    anyone can install Linux programs."


    If they pull this off, Linux on the desktop might actually get some
    traction beyond the LiNerds that shout and scream about how easy it is
    to use, while being derogatory to the 'mere mortals' that give it a
    go, get stuck, and end up asking for help starting from what they
    already know (Windows generally).

    If application installation in Ubuntu becomes as easy as it is in
    Windows, then Apple could be locked into their current position of
    being a provincial player, and finally it will provide some much
    needed competition to Windows.


    Alan.

    --

    The views expressed are my own, not those of my employer or others.
    My unmunged email is: (valid for 30 days
    min probably much longer).
    Alan, Jul 27, 2009
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. Alan

    Malcolm Guest

    Re: Linux with friendly app installs - Finally Apple should beworried?

    On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 12:07:01 +1200
    "Alan" <> wrote:

    > http://blogs.computerworld.com/node/14432/print
    >
    > "There's really nothing that hard about installing programs on Linux.
    > Anyone who still uses shell commands like say, "apt-get install
    > some-program-or-the-other," is doing so because they want to do it
    > that way, not because they have to. Programs like Debian and Ubuntu's
    > Synaptic, Fedora's yum or openSUSE's YaST makes installing programs
    > little more than a matter of point and click. Still, some people have
    > trouble, so Ubuntu is reviving a dusty, old project, AppCenter so
    > that anyone can install Linux programs."
    >
    >
    > If they pull this off, Linux on the desktop might actually get some
    > traction beyond the LiNerds that shout and scream about how easy it
    > is to use, while being derogatory to the 'mere mortals' that give it
    > a go, get stuck, and end up asking for help starting from what they
    > already know (Windows generally).
    >
    > If application installation in Ubuntu becomes as easy as it is in
    > Windows, then Apple could be locked into their current position of
    > being a provincial player, and finally it will provide some much
    > needed competition to Windows.
    >
    >
    > Alan.
    >

    Hi
    Or you can use 1-click ;) http://software.opensuse.org/search? note the
    OBS covers more than just openSuSE as well.

    --
    Cheers Malcolm °¿° (Linux Counter #276890)
    SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop 11 (x86_64) Kernel 2.6.27.25-0.1-default
    up 3 days 6:36, 2 users, load average: 0.52, 0.31, 0.25
    GPU GeForce 8600 GTS Silent - Driver Version: 185.18.14
    Malcolm, Jul 27, 2009
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Alan

    Max Burke Guest

    Alan wrote:
    > http://blogs.computerworld.com/node/14432/print
    >
    > "There's really nothing that hard about installing programs on Linux.
    > Anyone who still uses shell commands like say, "apt-get install
    > some-program-or-the-other," is doing so because they want to do it that
    > way, not because they have to. Programs like Debian and Ubuntu's
    > Synaptic, Fedora's yum or openSUSE's YaST makes installing programs
    > little more than a matter of point and click. Still, some people have
    > trouble, so Ubuntu is reviving a dusty, old project, AppCenter so that
    > anyone can install Linux programs."
    >
    >
    > If they pull this off, Linux on the desktop might actually get some
    > traction beyond the LiNerds that shout and scream about how easy it is
    > to use, while being derogatory to the 'mere mortals' that give it a go,
    > get stuck, and end up asking for help starting from what they already
    > know (Windows generally).
    >
    > If application installation in Ubuntu becomes as easy as it is in
    > Windows, then Apple could be locked into their current position of being
    > a provincial player, and finally it will provide some much needed
    > competition to Windows.


    Still got a long way to go to be as easy to use as Windows; Microsoft
    and time aint going to wait around for Linux/Ubuntu to catch up...

    My experience so far using Ubuntu is that you can find apps that will
    match those you/I use in Windows (to a certain extent) but they're no
    where near as easy to install and get working as the equivalent Windows
    ones are.

    Two examples:

    1#
    In Windows I use SpeedFan (http://www.almico.com/sfdownload.php)
    as a temperature/voltage/fan system monitor.

    All that is required to install it is to download the EXE install file,
    run the install file, and then it just does what it says it does.

    To do the [near] equivalent in Ubuntu I found Gnome Sensors Applet:
    Have a read of what has to be done to get this app to work..

    First I had to follow the instructions here, to get the sensors
    installed and working.
    http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2780

    Then I had to follow the instructions here to get them monitoring what I
    wanted them to monitor:
    http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=92504

    Finally I had to add then to a panel to display the temperatures, etc.


    2#
    Then I needed an app to monitor my Epson Stylus Photo 890 printers ink
    cartridges, do head cleaning; etc.

    In Windows I use SSC Service Utility. http://www.ssclg.com/epsone.shtml
    (another free ware app that I have been using for years from Win95 to
    Win XP Pro)
    Again all it takes is download the install exe, run it, then run the
    programme, it detects the printer and displays the ink cartridge levels.
    That's it.

    In Ubuntu the closest app I have found is MTInk
    Help/Install instructions are here:

    http://ubuntuforums.org/archive/index.php/t-28175.html

    But I had to use the terminal editor to give myself permission to use
    mtink, set up an lp group and make myself part of that group, and edit
    the printer usb connection so mtink could see it.

    But I got it working eventually...

    I can see now why Linux users talk up being able to use the 'command
    line' so much.
    Quite often it's the only way you can get anything to work...

    ;-)

    --

    Replace the obvious with paradise.net to email me
    Found Images
    http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/~mlvburke
    Max Burke, Jul 27, 2009
    #3
  4. Alan

    Malcolm Guest

    Re: Linux with friendly app installs - Finally Apple should beworried?

    On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 16:57:55 +1200
    Max Burke <> wrote:

    <snip>
    > Still got a long way to go to be as easy to use as Windows; Microsoft
    > and time aint going to wait around for Linux/Ubuntu to catch up...
    >
    > My experience so far using Ubuntu is that you can find apps that will
    > match those you/I use in Windows (to a certain extent) but they're no
    > where near as easy to install and get working as the equivalent
    > Windows ones are.

    <snip>
    Hi
    Whilst I agree with your comments ;) In SLE/openSuSE YaST provides a
    certain amount of tools so you don't need to use the command line for
    everything. Guess I've spent too much time at the CLI it's second
    nature......

    Have a look at gkrellm
    http://members.dslextreme.com/users/billw/gkrellm/gkrellm.html
    That combined with hddtemp and lm_sensors provides good detail.

    I use HP printers here, the HP Manager (hplip) provides all the info
    and tools you need.


    --
    Cheers Malcolm °¿° (Linux Counter #276890)
    SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop 11 (x86_64) Kernel 2.6.27.25-0.1-default
    up 2:52, 2 users, load average: 3.59, 2.48, 1.45
    GPU GeForce 8600 GTS Silent - Driver Version: 185.18.14
    Malcolm, Jul 27, 2009
    #4
  5. Alan

    victor Guest

    Max Burke wrote:
    > Alan wrote:
    >> http://blogs.computerworld.com/node/14432/print
    >>
    >> "There's really nothing that hard about installing programs on Linux.
    >> Anyone who still uses shell commands like say, "apt-get install
    >> some-program-or-the-other," is doing so because they want to do it
    >> that way, not because they have to. Programs like Debian and Ubuntu's
    >> Synaptic, Fedora's yum or openSUSE's YaST makes installing programs
    >> little more than a matter of point and click. Still, some people have
    >> trouble, so Ubuntu is reviving a dusty, old project, AppCenter so that
    >> anyone can install Linux programs."
    >>
    >>
    >> If they pull this off, Linux on the desktop might actually get some
    >> traction beyond the LiNerds that shout and scream about how easy it is
    >> to use, while being derogatory to the 'mere mortals' that give it a
    >> go, get stuck, and end up asking for help starting from what they
    >> already know (Windows generally).
    >>
    >> If application installation in Ubuntu becomes as easy as it is in
    >> Windows, then Apple could be locked into their current position of
    >> being a provincial player, and finally it will provide some much
    >> needed competition to Windows.

    >
    > Still got a long way to go to be as easy to use as Windows; Microsoft
    > and time aint going to wait around for Linux/Ubuntu to catch up...
    >
    > My experience so far using Ubuntu is that you can find apps that will
    > match those you/I use in Windows (to a certain extent) but they're no
    > where near as easy to install and get working as the equivalent Windows
    > ones are.
    >
    > Two examples:
    >
    > 1#
    > In Windows I use SpeedFan (http://www.almico.com/sfdownload.php)
    > as a temperature/voltage/fan system monitor.
    >
    > All that is required to install it is to download the EXE install file,
    > run the install file, and then it just does what it says it does.
    >
    > To do the [near] equivalent in Ubuntu I found Gnome Sensors Applet:
    > Have a read of what has to be done to get this app to work..
    >
    > First I had to follow the instructions here, to get the sensors
    > installed and working.
    > http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2780
    >
    > Then I had to follow the instructions here to get them monitoring what I
    > wanted them to monitor:
    > http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=92504
    >
    > Finally I had to add then to a panel to display the temperatures, etc.
    >
    >
    > 2#
    > Then I needed an app to monitor my Epson Stylus Photo 890 printers ink
    > cartridges, do head cleaning; etc.
    >
    > In Windows I use SSC Service Utility. http://www.ssclg.com/epsone.shtml
    > (another free ware app that I have been using for years from Win95 to
    > Win XP Pro)
    > Again all it takes is download the install exe, run it, then run the
    > programme, it detects the printer and displays the ink cartridge levels.
    > That's it.
    >
    > In Ubuntu the closest app I have found is MTInk
    > Help/Install instructions are here:
    >
    > http://ubuntuforums.org/archive/index.php/t-28175.html
    >
    > But I had to use the terminal editor to give myself permission to use
    > mtink, set up an lp group and make myself part of that group, and edit
    > the printer usb connection so mtink could see it.
    >
    > But I got it working eventually...
    >
    > I can see now why Linux users talk up being able to use the 'command
    > line' so much.
    > Quite often it's the only way you can get anything to work...
    >
    > ;-)
    >

    Its costing you a fortune !!
    Your time is obviously worth nothing
    ;-)
    victor, Jul 27, 2009
    #5
  6. Alan

    Alan Guest

    "victor" <> wrote in message
    news:h4jla3$c0n$-september.org...
    > Max Burke wrote:
    >> Alan wrote:
    >>> http://blogs.computerworld.com/node/14432/print
    >>>
    >>> "There's really nothing that hard about installing programs on
    >>> Linux. Anyone who still uses shell commands like say, "apt-get
    >>> install some-program-or-the-other," is doing so because they want
    >>> to do it that way, not because they have to. Programs like Debian
    >>> and Ubuntu's Synaptic, Fedora's yum or openSUSE's YaST makes
    >>> installing programs little more than a matter of point and click.
    >>> Still, some people have trouble, so Ubuntu is reviving a dusty,
    >>> old project, AppCenter so that anyone can install Linux programs."
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> If they pull this off, Linux on the desktop might actually get
    >>> some traction beyond the LiNerds that shout and scream about how
    >>> easy it is to use, while being derogatory to the 'mere mortals'
    >>> that give it a go, get stuck, and end up asking for help starting
    >>> from what they already know (Windows generally).
    >>>
    >>> If application installation in Ubuntu becomes as easy as it is in
    >>> Windows, then Apple could be locked into their current position of
    >>> being a provincial player, and finally it will provide some much
    >>> needed competition to Windows.

    >>
    >> Still got a long way to go to be as easy to use as Windows;
    >> Microsoft and time aint going to wait around for Linux/Ubuntu to
    >> catch up...
    >>
    >> My experience so far using Ubuntu is that you can find apps that
    >> will match those you/I use in Windows (to a certain extent) but
    >> they're no where near as easy to install and get working as the
    >> equivalent Windows ones are.
    >>
    >> Two examples:
    >>
    >> 1#
    >> In Windows I use SpeedFan (http://www.almico.com/sfdownload.php)
    >> as a temperature/voltage/fan system monitor.
    >>
    >> All that is required to install it is to download the EXE install
    >> file, run the install file, and then it just does what it says it
    >> does.
    >>
    >> To do the [near] equivalent in Ubuntu I found Gnome Sensors Applet:
    >> Have a read of what has to be done to get this app to work..
    >>
    >> First I had to follow the instructions here, to get the sensors
    >> installed and working.
    >> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2780
    >>
    >> Then I had to follow the instructions here to get them monitoring
    >> what I wanted them to monitor:
    >> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=92504
    >>
    >> Finally I had to add then to a panel to display the temperatures,
    >> etc.
    >>
    >>
    >> 2#
    >> Then I needed an app to monitor my Epson Stylus Photo 890 printers
    >> ink cartridges, do head cleaning; etc.
    >>
    >> In Windows I use SSC Service Utility.
    >> http://www.ssclg.com/epsone.shtml
    >> (another free ware app that I have been using for years from Win95
    >> to Win XP Pro)
    >> Again all it takes is download the install exe, run it, then run
    >> the programme, it detects the printer and displays the ink
    >> cartridge levels.
    >> That's it.
    >>
    >> In Ubuntu the closest app I have found is MTInk
    >> Help/Install instructions are here:
    >>
    >> http://ubuntuforums.org/archive/index.php/t-28175.html
    >>
    >> But I had to use the terminal editor to give myself permission to
    >> use mtink, set up an lp group and make myself part of that group,
    >> and edit the printer usb connection so mtink could see it.
    >>
    >> But I got it working eventually...
    >>
    >> I can see now why Linux users talk up being able to use the
    >> 'command line' so much.
    >> Quite often it's the only way you can get anything to work...
    >>
    >> ;-)
    >>

    > Its costing you a fortune !!
    > Your time is obviously worth nothing
    > ;-)
    >


    You may be joking (or perhaps not), but that is why the TCO for a
    windows environment is frequently lower than an Linux environment.

    If you were starting from a zero base in both cases (both
    administration and user side) then probably Linux would win out, but
    for most businesses, the TCO of switching to Linux is just far too
    high.

    Add to that, finding a reliable Linux expert with recognised
    qualifications is also both more difficult and more expensive, and the
    heterogeneity of Linux environments means that if your tame Linux
    support guy leaves or gets uppity, you can have major issues that just
    won't be there in windows land where almost any IT company can walk in
    and have things working in five minutes.

    Them's the strengths and also the frustrations of Linux-land. We have
    such a long way to go ;-(

    Alan.


    --

    The views expressed are my own, not those of my employer or others.
    My unmunged email is: (valid for 30 days
    min probably much longer).
    Alan, Jul 27, 2009
    #6
  7. Alan

    victor Guest

    Alan wrote:
    > "victor" <> wrote in message
    > news:h4jla3$c0n$-september.org...
    >> Max Burke wrote:
    >>> Alan wrote:
    >>>> http://blogs.computerworld.com/node/14432/print
    >>>>
    >>>> "There's really nothing that hard about installing programs on
    >>>> Linux. Anyone who still uses shell commands like say, "apt-get
    >>>> install some-program-or-the-other," is doing so because they want to
    >>>> do it that way, not because they have to. Programs like Debian and
    >>>> Ubuntu's Synaptic, Fedora's yum or openSUSE's YaST makes installing
    >>>> programs little more than a matter of point and click. Still, some
    >>>> people have trouble, so Ubuntu is reviving a dusty, old project,
    >>>> AppCenter so that anyone can install Linux programs."
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> If they pull this off, Linux on the desktop might actually get some
    >>>> traction beyond the LiNerds that shout and scream about how easy it
    >>>> is to use, while being derogatory to the 'mere mortals' that give it
    >>>> a go, get stuck, and end up asking for help starting from what they
    >>>> already know (Windows generally).
    >>>>
    >>>> If application installation in Ubuntu becomes as easy as it is in
    >>>> Windows, then Apple could be locked into their current position of
    >>>> being a provincial player, and finally it will provide some much
    >>>> needed competition to Windows.
    >>>
    >>> Still got a long way to go to be as easy to use as Windows; Microsoft
    >>> and time aint going to wait around for Linux/Ubuntu to catch up...
    >>>
    >>> My experience so far using Ubuntu is that you can find apps that will
    >>> match those you/I use in Windows (to a certain extent) but they're no
    >>> where near as easy to install and get working as the equivalent
    >>> Windows ones are.
    >>>
    >>> Two examples:
    >>>
    >>> 1#
    >>> In Windows I use SpeedFan (http://www.almico.com/sfdownload.php)
    >>> as a temperature/voltage/fan system monitor.
    >>>
    >>> All that is required to install it is to download the EXE install
    >>> file, run the install file, and then it just does what it says it does.
    >>>
    >>> To do the [near] equivalent in Ubuntu I found Gnome Sensors Applet:
    >>> Have a read of what has to be done to get this app to work..
    >>>
    >>> First I had to follow the instructions here, to get the sensors
    >>> installed and working.
    >>> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2780
    >>>
    >>> Then I had to follow the instructions here to get them monitoring
    >>> what I wanted them to monitor:
    >>> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=92504
    >>>
    >>> Finally I had to add then to a panel to display the temperatures, etc.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> 2#
    >>> Then I needed an app to monitor my Epson Stylus Photo 890 printers
    >>> ink cartridges, do head cleaning; etc.
    >>>
    >>> In Windows I use SSC Service Utility. http://www.ssclg.com/epsone.shtml
    >>> (another free ware app that I have been using for years from Win95 to
    >>> Win XP Pro)
    >>> Again all it takes is download the install exe, run it, then run the
    >>> programme, it detects the printer and displays the ink cartridge levels.
    >>> That's it.
    >>>
    >>> In Ubuntu the closest app I have found is MTInk
    >>> Help/Install instructions are here:
    >>>
    >>> http://ubuntuforums.org/archive/index.php/t-28175.html
    >>>
    >>> But I had to use the terminal editor to give myself permission to use
    >>> mtink, set up an lp group and make myself part of that group, and
    >>> edit the printer usb connection so mtink could see it.
    >>>
    >>> But I got it working eventually...
    >>>
    >>> I can see now why Linux users talk up being able to use the 'command
    >>> line' so much.
    >>> Quite often it's the only way you can get anything to work...
    >>>
    >>> ;-)
    >>>

    >> Its costing you a fortune !!
    >> Your time is obviously worth nothing
    >> ;-)
    >>

    >
    > You may be joking (or perhaps not), but that is why the TCO for a
    > windows environment is frequently lower than an Linux environment.
    >
    > If you were starting from a zero base in both cases (both administration
    > and user side) then probably Linux would win out, but for most
    > businesses, the TCO of switching to Linux is just far too high.
    >
    > Add to that, finding a reliable Linux expert with recognised
    > qualifications is also both more difficult and more expensive, and the
    > heterogeneity of Linux environments means that if your tame Linux
    > support guy leaves or gets uppity, you can have major issues that just
    > won't be there in windows land where almost any IT company can walk in
    > and have things working in five minutes.
    >
    > Them's the strengths and also the frustrations of Linux-land. We have
    > such a long way to go ;-(
    >
    > Alan.
    >
    >

    You and the article you posted seem to assume that improvements in Linux
    are made with the objective of capturing Microsoft or Apple customers.
    Why ?
    If there is no reason to switch, then don't.
    Ubuntu comes with at least 6 apt installers by default, its no big deal
    if they add another one.
    victor, Jul 27, 2009
    #7
  8. Alan

    Alan Guest

    "victor" <> wrote in message
    news:h4jn1b$i37$-september.org...
    > Alan wrote:
    >> "victor" <> wrote in message
    >> news:h4jla3$c0n$-september.org...
    >>> Max Burke wrote:
    >>>> Alan wrote:
    >>>>> http://blogs.computerworld.com/node/14432/print
    >>>>>
    >>>>> "There's really nothing that hard about installing programs on
    >>>>> Linux. Anyone who still uses shell commands like say, "apt-get
    >>>>> install some-program-or-the-other," is doing so because they
    >>>>> want to do it that way, not because they have to. Programs like
    >>>>> Debian and Ubuntu's Synaptic, Fedora's yum or openSUSE's YaST
    >>>>> makes installing programs little more than a matter of point and
    >>>>> click. Still, some people have trouble, so Ubuntu is reviving a
    >>>>> dusty, old project, AppCenter so that anyone can install Linux
    >>>>> programs."
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>> If they pull this off, Linux on the desktop might actually get
    >>>>> some traction beyond the LiNerds that shout and scream about how
    >>>>> easy it is to use, while being derogatory to the 'mere mortals'
    >>>>> that give it a go, get stuck, and end up asking for help
    >>>>> starting from what they already know (Windows generally).
    >>>>>
    >>>>> If application installation in Ubuntu becomes as easy as it is
    >>>>> in Windows, then Apple could be locked into their current
    >>>>> position of being a provincial player, and finally it will
    >>>>> provide some much needed competition to Windows.
    >>>>
    >>>> Still got a long way to go to be as easy to use as Windows;
    >>>> Microsoft and time aint going to wait around for Linux/Ubuntu to
    >>>> catch up...
    >>>>
    >>>> My experience so far using Ubuntu is that you can find apps that
    >>>> will match those you/I use in Windows (to a certain extent) but
    >>>> they're no where near as easy to install and get working as the
    >>>> equivalent Windows ones are.
    >>>>
    >>>> Two examples:
    >>>>
    >>>> 1#
    >>>> In Windows I use SpeedFan (http://www.almico.com/sfdownload.php)
    >>>> as a temperature/voltage/fan system monitor.
    >>>>
    >>>> All that is required to install it is to download the EXE install
    >>>> file, run the install file, and then it just does what it says it
    >>>> does.
    >>>>
    >>>> To do the [near] equivalent in Ubuntu I found Gnome Sensors
    >>>> Applet:
    >>>> Have a read of what has to be done to get this app to work..
    >>>>
    >>>> First I had to follow the instructions here, to get the sensors
    >>>> installed and working.
    >>>> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2780
    >>>>
    >>>> Then I had to follow the instructions here to get them monitoring
    >>>> what I wanted them to monitor:
    >>>> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=92504
    >>>>
    >>>> Finally I had to add then to a panel to display the temperatures,
    >>>> etc.
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> 2#
    >>>> Then I needed an app to monitor my Epson Stylus Photo 890
    >>>> printers ink cartridges, do head cleaning; etc.
    >>>>
    >>>> In Windows I use SSC Service Utility.
    >>>> http://www.ssclg.com/epsone.shtml
    >>>> (another free ware app that I have been using for years from
    >>>> Win95 to Win XP Pro)
    >>>> Again all it takes is download the install exe, run it, then run
    >>>> the programme, it detects the printer and displays the ink
    >>>> cartridge levels.
    >>>> That's it.
    >>>>
    >>>> In Ubuntu the closest app I have found is MTInk
    >>>> Help/Install instructions are here:
    >>>>
    >>>> http://ubuntuforums.org/archive/index.php/t-28175.html
    >>>>
    >>>> But I had to use the terminal editor to give myself permission to
    >>>> use mtink, set up an lp group and make myself part of that group,
    >>>> and edit the printer usb connection so mtink could see it.
    >>>>
    >>>> But I got it working eventually...
    >>>>
    >>>> I can see now why Linux users talk up being able to use the
    >>>> 'command line' so much.
    >>>> Quite often it's the only way you can get anything to work...
    >>>>
    >>>> ;-)
    >>>>
    >>> Its costing you a fortune !!
    >>> Your time is obviously worth nothing
    >>> ;-)
    >>>

    >>
    >> You may be joking (or perhaps not), but that is why the TCO for a
    >> windows environment is frequently lower than an Linux environment.
    >>
    >> If you were starting from a zero base in both cases (both
    >> administration and user side) then probably Linux would win out,
    >> but for most businesses, the TCO of switching to Linux is just far
    >> too high.
    >>
    >> Add to that, finding a reliable Linux expert with recognised
    >> qualifications is also both more difficult and more expensive, and
    >> the heterogeneity of Linux environments means that if your tame
    >> Linux support guy leaves or gets uppity, you can have major issues
    >> that just won't be there in windows land where almost any IT
    >> company can walk in and have things working in five minutes.
    >>
    >> Them's the strengths and also the frustrations of Linux-land. We
    >> have such a long way to go ;-(
    >>
    >> Alan.
    >>
    >>

    > You and the article you posted seem to assume that improvements in
    > Linux are made with the objective of capturing Microsoft or Apple
    > customers.
    > Why ?
    >


    Well, existing users have either given up, or gotten over the
    difficulties.

    Hence is seems fair to say that the addition of an 'easy to use'
    installer is aimed at new users, and for a new user, each OS is
    implicitly in competition with the others (accepting that may users
    will use two or more OSs and each flavour of Linux is in implicit
    competition with the other flavours).

    >
    > If there is no reason to switch, then don't.
    > Ubuntu comes with at least 6 apt installers by default, its no big
    > deal if they add another one.
    >


    Alan.

    --

    The views expressed are my own, not those of my employer or others.
    My unmunged email is: (valid for 30 days
    min probably much longer).
    Alan, Jul 27, 2009
    #8
  9. Alan

    victor Guest

    Alan wrote:
    > "victor" <> wrote in message
    > news:h4jn1b$i37$-september.org...
    >> Alan wrote:
    >>> "victor" <> wrote in message
    >>> news:h4jla3$c0n$-september.org...
    >>>> Max Burke wrote:
    >>>>> Alan wrote:
    >>>>>> http://blogs.computerworld.com/node/14432/print
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> "There's really nothing that hard about installing programs on
    >>>>>> Linux. Anyone who still uses shell commands like say, "apt-get
    >>>>>> install some-program-or-the-other," is doing so because they want
    >>>>>> to do it that way, not because they have to. Programs like Debian
    >>>>>> and Ubuntu's Synaptic, Fedora's yum or openSUSE's YaST makes
    >>>>>> installing programs little more than a matter of point and click.
    >>>>>> Still, some people have trouble, so Ubuntu is reviving a dusty,
    >>>>>> old project, AppCenter so that anyone can install Linux programs."
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> If they pull this off, Linux on the desktop might actually get
    >>>>>> some traction beyond the LiNerds that shout and scream about how
    >>>>>> easy it is to use, while being derogatory to the 'mere mortals'
    >>>>>> that give it a go, get stuck, and end up asking for help starting
    >>>>>> from what they already know (Windows generally).
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> If application installation in Ubuntu becomes as easy as it is in
    >>>>>> Windows, then Apple could be locked into their current position of
    >>>>>> being a provincial player, and finally it will provide some much
    >>>>>> needed competition to Windows.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Still got a long way to go to be as easy to use as Windows;
    >>>>> Microsoft and time aint going to wait around for Linux/Ubuntu to
    >>>>> catch up...
    >>>>>
    >>>>> My experience so far using Ubuntu is that you can find apps that
    >>>>> will match those you/I use in Windows (to a certain extent) but
    >>>>> they're no where near as easy to install and get working as the
    >>>>> equivalent Windows ones are.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Two examples:
    >>>>>
    >>>>> 1#
    >>>>> In Windows I use SpeedFan (http://www.almico.com/sfdownload.php)
    >>>>> as a temperature/voltage/fan system monitor.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> All that is required to install it is to download the EXE install
    >>>>> file, run the install file, and then it just does what it says it
    >>>>> does.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> To do the [near] equivalent in Ubuntu I found Gnome Sensors Applet:
    >>>>> Have a read of what has to be done to get this app to work..
    >>>>>
    >>>>> First I had to follow the instructions here, to get the sensors
    >>>>> installed and working.
    >>>>> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2780
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Then I had to follow the instructions here to get them monitoring
    >>>>> what I wanted them to monitor:
    >>>>> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=92504
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Finally I had to add then to a panel to display the temperatures, etc.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>> 2#
    >>>>> Then I needed an app to monitor my Epson Stylus Photo 890 printers
    >>>>> ink cartridges, do head cleaning; etc.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> In Windows I use SSC Service Utility.
    >>>>> http://www.ssclg.com/epsone.shtml
    >>>>> (another free ware app that I have been using for years from Win95
    >>>>> to Win XP Pro)
    >>>>> Again all it takes is download the install exe, run it, then run
    >>>>> the programme, it detects the printer and displays the ink
    >>>>> cartridge levels.
    >>>>> That's it.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> In Ubuntu the closest app I have found is MTInk
    >>>>> Help/Install instructions are here:
    >>>>>
    >>>>> http://ubuntuforums.org/archive/index.php/t-28175.html
    >>>>>
    >>>>> But I had to use the terminal editor to give myself permission to
    >>>>> use mtink, set up an lp group and make myself part of that group,
    >>>>> and edit the printer usb connection so mtink could see it.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> But I got it working eventually...
    >>>>>
    >>>>> I can see now why Linux users talk up being able to use the
    >>>>> 'command line' so much.
    >>>>> Quite often it's the only way you can get anything to work...
    >>>>>
    >>>>> ;-)
    >>>>>
    >>>> Its costing you a fortune !!
    >>>> Your time is obviously worth nothing
    >>>> ;-)
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>> You may be joking (or perhaps not), but that is why the TCO for a
    >>> windows environment is frequently lower than an Linux environment.
    >>>
    >>> If you were starting from a zero base in both cases (both
    >>> administration and user side) then probably Linux would win out, but
    >>> for most businesses, the TCO of switching to Linux is just far too high.
    >>>
    >>> Add to that, finding a reliable Linux expert with recognised
    >>> qualifications is also both more difficult and more expensive, and
    >>> the heterogeneity of Linux environments means that if your tame Linux
    >>> support guy leaves or gets uppity, you can have major issues that
    >>> just won't be there in windows land where almost any IT company can
    >>> walk in and have things working in five minutes.
    >>>
    >>> Them's the strengths and also the frustrations of Linux-land. We
    >>> have such a long way to go ;-(
    >>>
    >>> Alan.
    >>>
    >>>

    >> You and the article you posted seem to assume that improvements in
    >> Linux are made with the objective of capturing Microsoft or Apple
    >> customers.
    >> Why ?
    >>

    >
    > Well, existing users have either given up, or gotten over the difficulties.
    >
    > Hence is seems fair to say that the addition of an 'easy to use'
    > installer is aimed at new users, and for a new user, each OS is
    > implicitly in competition with the others (accepting that may users will
    > use two or more OSs and each flavour of Linux is in implicit competition
    > with the other flavours).
    >


    All installers are aimed at new users, Add Applications and Update
    Manager or a combination thereof won't make any difference in the
    perception that you make a Linux computer by breaking a perfectly
    acceptable Windows computer for no good reason and the people that are
    likely to try it are the ones who think they are skilled enough to get
    their puter back if it all goes pear shaped. They are self selecting,
    their decision to use Linux for the first time will be a by product of
    their Windows aptitude.
    victor, Jul 27, 2009
    #9
  10. Alan

    Alan Guest

    "victor" <> wrote in message
    news:h4jul6$evu$-september.org...
    > Alan wrote:
    >> "victor" <> wrote in message
    >> news:h4jn1b$i37$-september.org...
    >>> Alan wrote:
    >>>> "victor" <> wrote in message
    >>>> news:h4jla3$c0n$-september.org...
    >>>>> Max Burke wrote:
    >>>>>> Alan wrote:
    >>>>>>> http://blogs.computerworld.com/node/14432/print
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> "There's really nothing that hard about installing programs on
    >>>>>>> Linux. Anyone who still uses shell commands like say, "apt-get
    >>>>>>> install some-program-or-the-other," is doing so because they
    >>>>>>> want to do it that way, not because they have to. Programs
    >>>>>>> like Debian and Ubuntu's Synaptic, Fedora's yum or openSUSE's
    >>>>>>> YaST makes installing programs little more than a matter of
    >>>>>>> point and click. Still, some people have trouble, so Ubuntu is
    >>>>>>> reviving a dusty, old project, AppCenter so that anyone can
    >>>>>>> install Linux programs."
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> If they pull this off, Linux on the desktop might actually get
    >>>>>>> some traction beyond the LiNerds that shout and scream about
    >>>>>>> how easy it is to use, while being derogatory to the 'mere
    >>>>>>> mortals' that give it a go, get stuck, and end up asking for
    >>>>>>> help starting from what they already know (Windows generally).
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> If application installation in Ubuntu becomes as easy as it is
    >>>>>>> in Windows, then Apple could be locked into their current
    >>>>>>> position of being a provincial player, and finally it will
    >>>>>>> provide some much needed competition to Windows.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Still got a long way to go to be as easy to use as Windows;
    >>>>>> Microsoft and time aint going to wait around for Linux/Ubuntu
    >>>>>> to catch up...
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> My experience so far using Ubuntu is that you can find apps
    >>>>>> that will match those you/I use in Windows (to a certain
    >>>>>> extent) but they're no where near as easy to install and get
    >>>>>> working as the equivalent Windows ones are.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Two examples:
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> 1#
    >>>>>> In Windows I use SpeedFan
    >>>>>> (http://www.almico.com/sfdownload.php)
    >>>>>> as a temperature/voltage/fan system monitor.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> All that is required to install it is to download the EXE
    >>>>>> install file, run the install file, and then it just does what
    >>>>>> it says it does.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> To do the [near] equivalent in Ubuntu I found Gnome Sensors
    >>>>>> Applet:
    >>>>>> Have a read of what has to be done to get this app to work..
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> First I had to follow the instructions here, to get the sensors
    >>>>>> installed and working.
    >>>>>> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2780
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Then I had to follow the instructions here to get them
    >>>>>> monitoring what I wanted them to monitor:
    >>>>>> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=92504
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Finally I had to add then to a panel to display the
    >>>>>> temperatures, etc.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> 2#
    >>>>>> Then I needed an app to monitor my Epson Stylus Photo 890
    >>>>>> printers ink cartridges, do head cleaning; etc.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> In Windows I use SSC Service Utility.
    >>>>>> http://www.ssclg.com/epsone.shtml
    >>>>>> (another free ware app that I have been using for years from
    >>>>>> Win95 to Win XP Pro)
    >>>>>> Again all it takes is download the install exe, run it, then
    >>>>>> run the programme, it detects the printer and displays the ink
    >>>>>> cartridge levels.
    >>>>>> That's it.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> In Ubuntu the closest app I have found is MTInk
    >>>>>> Help/Install instructions are here:
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> http://ubuntuforums.org/archive/index.php/t-28175.html
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> But I had to use the terminal editor to give myself permission
    >>>>>> to use mtink, set up an lp group and make myself part of that
    >>>>>> group, and edit the printer usb connection so mtink could see
    >>>>>> it.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> But I got it working eventually...
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> I can see now why Linux users talk up being able to use the
    >>>>>> 'command line' so much.
    >>>>>> Quite often it's the only way you can get anything to work...
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> ;-)
    >>>>>>
    >>>>> Its costing you a fortune !!
    >>>>> Your time is obviously worth nothing
    >>>>> ;-)
    >>>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> You may be joking (or perhaps not), but that is why the TCO for a
    >>>> windows environment is frequently lower than an Linux
    >>>> environment.
    >>>>
    >>>> If you were starting from a zero base in both cases (both
    >>>> administration and user side) then probably Linux would win out,
    >>>> but for most businesses, the TCO of switching to Linux is just
    >>>> far too high.
    >>>>
    >>>> Add to that, finding a reliable Linux expert with recognised
    >>>> qualifications is also both more difficult and more expensive,
    >>>> and the heterogeneity of Linux environments means that if your
    >>>> tame Linux support guy leaves or gets uppity, you can have major
    >>>> issues that just won't be there in windows land where almost any
    >>>> IT company can walk in and have things working in five minutes.
    >>>>
    >>>> Them's the strengths and also the frustrations of Linux-land. We
    >>>> have such a long way to go ;-(
    >>>>
    >>>> Alan.
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>> You and the article you posted seem to assume that improvements in
    >>> Linux are made with the objective of capturing Microsoft or Apple
    >>> customers.
    >>> Why ?
    >>>

    >>
    >> Well, existing users have either given up, or gotten over the
    >> difficulties.
    >>
    >> Hence is seems fair to say that the addition of an 'easy to use'
    >> installer is aimed at new users, and for a new user, each OS is
    >> implicitly in competition with the others (accepting that may users
    >> will use two or more OSs and each flavour of Linux is in implicit
    >> competition with the other flavours).
    >>

    >
    > All installers are aimed at new users, Add Applications and Update
    > Manager or a combination thereof won't make any difference in the
    > perception that you make a Linux computer by breaking a perfectly
    > acceptable Windows computer for no good reason and the people that
    > are likely to try it are the ones who think they are skilled enough
    > to get their puter back if it all goes pear shaped. They are self
    > selecting, their decision to use Linux for the first time will be a
    > by product of their Windows aptitude.
    >


    Well reasoned.

    Not sure it is the _whole_ story, but I do agree to a large degree.

    Alan.

    --

    The views expressed are my own, not those of my employer or others.
    My unmunged email is: (valid for 30 days
    min probably much longer).
    Alan, Jul 27, 2009
    #10
  11. Alan

    Max Burke Guest

    victor wrote:
    > Alan wrote:


    >>> Max Burke wrote:
    >>> I can see now why Linux users talk up being able to use the 'command
    >>> line' so much.
    >>> Quite often it's the only way you can get anything to work...
    >>> ;-)


    Its costing you a fortune !!
    Your time is obviously worth nothing
    ;-)

    >> You may be joking (or perhaps not), but that is why the TCO for a
    >> windows environment is frequently lower than an Linux environment.
    >>
    >> If you were starting from a zero base in both cases (both
    >> administration and user side) then probably Linux would win out, but
    >> for most businesses, the TCO of switching to Linux is just far too high.
    >>
    >> Add to that, finding a reliable Linux expert with recognised
    >> qualifications is also both more difficult and more expensive, and the
    >> heterogeneity of Linux environments means that if your tame Linux
    >> support guy leaves or gets uppity, you can have major issues that just
    >> won't be there in windows land where almost any IT company can walk in
    >> and have things working in five minutes.
    >>
    >> Them's the strengths and also the frustrations of Linux-land. We have
    >> such a long way to go ;-(


    > You and the article you posted seem to assume that improvements in Linux
    > are made with the objective of capturing Microsoft or Apple customers.
    > Why ?


    Google Linux V Windows.
    Read any Linux Advocacy website/forum/mailing list...
    Or you could try reading LDO's posts in nz.comp...

    ;-)



    --

    Replace the obvious with paradise.net to email me
    Found Images
    http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/~mlvburke
    Max Burke, Jul 27, 2009
    #11
  12. Alan

    victor Guest

    Max Burke wrote:
    > victor wrote:
    >> Alan wrote:

    >
    >>>> Max Burke wrote:
    >>>> I can see now why Linux users talk up being able to use the 'command
    >>>> line' so much.
    >>>> Quite often it's the only way you can get anything to work...
    >>>> ;-)

    >
    > Its costing you a fortune !!
    > Your time is obviously worth nothing
    > ;-)
    >
    >>> You may be joking (or perhaps not), but that is why the TCO for a
    >>> windows environment is frequently lower than an Linux environment.
    >>>
    >>> If you were starting from a zero base in both cases (both
    >>> administration and user side) then probably Linux would win out, but
    >>> for most businesses, the TCO of switching to Linux is just far too high.
    >>>
    >>> Add to that, finding a reliable Linux expert with recognised
    >>> qualifications is also both more difficult and more expensive, and
    >>> the heterogeneity of Linux environments means that if your tame Linux
    >>> support guy leaves or gets uppity, you can have major issues that
    >>> just won't be there in windows land where almost any IT company can
    >>> walk in and have things working in five minutes.
    >>>
    >>> Them's the strengths and also the frustrations of Linux-land. We
    >>> have such a long way to go ;-(

    >
    >> You and the article you posted seem to assume that improvements in
    >> Linux are made with the objective of capturing Microsoft or Apple
    >> customers.
    >> Why ?

    >
    > Google Linux V Windows.
    > Read any Linux Advocacy website/forum/mailing list...
    > Or you could try reading LDO's posts in nz.comp...
    >
    > ;-)
    >
    >
    >

    Sounds tedious.
    That is the nature of geek flame baiting, and very popular it is too,
    but it's not necessarily the motivation of the OS and application
    developers, whether they are making software for Linux Windows Macs or
    BSD, they seem more interested in enhancing their own reputations with
    their technical contributions than their bitchin' repartee.
    victor, Jul 27, 2009
    #12
  13. In article <h4jul6$evu$-september.org>, victor <> wrote:
    (snip)

    > They are self selecting,
    >their decision to use Linux for the first time will be a by product of
    >their Windows aptitude.


    I suspect that they (we) are rather, those have finally had a gutsfull of
    not being able to do what we want with our computer. You could, I suppose)
    suggest that implies knowing enough to know there was choice. :)
    That was certainly my view. I did not want to surrender control of what I
    did to anyone (DRM, registration, ... etc), so made a concious choice to use
    anything else. To misss quote, ... We are mad as hell and not going to take
    it any more. :)
    Bruce Sinclair, Jul 28, 2009
    #13
  14. Alan

    victor Guest

    Bruce Sinclair wrote:
    > In article <h4jul6$evu$-september.org>, victor <> wrote:
    > (snip)
    >
    >> They are self selecting,
    >> their decision to use Linux for the first time will be a by product of
    >> their Windows aptitude.

    >
    > I suspect that they (we) are rather, those have finally had a gutsfull of
    > not being able to do what we want with our computer. You could, I suppose)
    > suggest that implies knowing enough to know there was choice. :)
    > That was certainly my view. I did not want to surrender control of what I
    > did to anyone (DRM, registration, ... etc), so made a concious choice to use
    > anything else. To misss quote, ... We are mad as hell and not going to take
    > it any more. :)
    >
    >
    >

    That might be just you. I'm quite happy using Windows, in fact if I tap
    the button on my kvm switch theres my Windows laptop running a Windows
    only design app. I've got a bunch of Ubuntu and Debian variants as well.
    I know enough to get me by, There is a level of competence in setting up
    computers and networks and the various gadgets that go with them which
    is now just basic household skills, getting the Windows wifi laptops
    printing through a cups server, using them or a phone to change the
    playlist on the music server. The payoff for learning a little is huge
    with computers and especially with Linux.
    victor, Jul 28, 2009
    #14
  15. Re: Linux with friendly app installs - Finally Microsoft should be worried?

    In message <h4jchr$pv7$-september.org>, Max Burke wrote:

    > 1#
    > In Windows I use SpeedFan (http://www.almico.com/sfdownload.php)
    > as a temperature/voltage/fan system monitor.
    >
    > All that is required to install it is to download the EXE install file,
    > run the install file, and then it just does what it says it does.
    >
    > 2#
    > Then I needed an app to monitor my Epson Stylus Photo 890 printers ink
    > cartridges, do head cleaning; etc.
    >
    > In Windows I use SSC Service Utility. http://www.ssclg.com/epsone.shtml
    > (another free ware app that I have been using for years from Win95 to
    > Win XP Pro)
    > Again all it takes is download the install exe, run it, then run the
    > programme, it detects the printer and displays the ink cartridge levels.
    > That's it.


    But there's no central place in Windows where you can find things like this.
    You have to visit dodgy websites and download questionable installers,
    unless some more experienced geek has already told you where to go.

    And once you've installed it, what then? How do you keep it up to date? Some
    months down the track, when the inevitable time comes to reinstall Windows,
    you suddenly find you've lost some capability that you'd grown accustomed
    to. Now where did that come from? Some third-party utility you'd installed
    and then forgotten. Where to go to get it again? What was it called, anyway?

    Or you upgrade to a new version of the OS. Will the utility still work? No
    luck. Go to the website to look for a new version? Sorry, the company has
    gone out of business. Or they want to charge you money for the new version.

    And so on and so on and so on...
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Jul 29, 2009
    #15
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