Linux use reaches 1% -- world yawns

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by impossible, May 7, 2009.

  1. impossible

    impossible Guest

    http://blogs.computerworld.com/linux_use_reached_1_world_yawns

    "Many people have made much of the fact that for the first time, Linux use
    as measured by Net Applications has crossed the 1% market share barrier. As
    significant milestones go, this is about as meaningless as it gets. ..."

    "To understand why, let's look at how Linux reached that 1% market share.
    Linux was first created in 1991 --- that's 18 years ago. To reach 1% market
    share in 18 years is not a particularly difficult task, especially
    considering that the operating system is available for free. For most of
    Linux's history, it wasn't even a blip on the radar of any market share
    figures, apart from server market share. There it's a strong presence, and
    deservedly so. It's a flat-out great operating system for servers. The
    desktop is where it's floundered, and for good reason. There are too many
    variants of it, and while it's gotten much easier to use, when you need to
    install software on it or update it, it's far too complicated...."

    "Why has Linux finally broken the 1% barrier? Because of netbooks.
    Initially, Linux had a big netbook market share of 30% or so. So the 1%
    breakthrough is due entirely to netbook use, not Linux use on desktops,
    where it still flounders. Sure, you can buy Linux on a Dell, if you try hard
    enough. But otherwise, good luck. And that's the way it will stay. Linux
    will never become a mainstream operating system on desktops, and so for
    client machines, it will remain largely confined to netbooks. Market surveys
    have shown that Linux sales on netbooks have plunged to only 10% of
    netbooks."
     
    impossible, May 7, 2009
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. impossible

    Dave Doe Guest

    In article <iUpMl.687190$yE1.299487@attbi_s21>,
    says...
    > http://blogs.computerworld.com/linux_use_reached_1_world_yawns
    >
    > "Many people have made much of the fact that for the first time, Linux use
    > as measured by Net Applications has crossed the 1% market share barrier. As
    > significant milestones go, this is about as meaningless as it gets. ..."
    >
    > "To understand why, let's look at how Linux reached that 1% market share.
    > Linux was first created in 1991 --- that's 18 years ago. To reach 1% market
    > share in 18 years is not a particularly difficult task, especially
    > considering that the operating system is available for free. For most of
    > Linux's history, it wasn't even a blip on the radar of any market share
    > figures, apart from server market share. There it's a strong presence, and
    > deservedly so. It's a flat-out great operating system for servers. The
    > desktop is where it's floundered, and for good reason. There are too many
    > variants of it, and while it's gotten much easier to use, when you need to
    > install software on it or update it, it's far too complicated...."
    >
    > "Why has Linux finally broken the 1% barrier? Because of netbooks.
    > Initially, Linux had a big netbook market share of 30% or so. So the 1%
    > breakthrough is due entirely to netbook use, not Linux use on desktops,
    > where it still flounders. Sure, you can buy Linux on a Dell, if you try hard
    > enough. But otherwise, good luck. And that's the way it will stay. Linux
    > will never become a mainstream operating system on desktops, and so for
    > client machines, it will remain largely confined to netbooks. Market surveys
    > have shown that Linux sales on netbooks have plunged to only 10% of
    > netbooks."


    Well if you ask me, I think the writer's got it all wrong. It's a great
    milestone (IMO) that Linux has got a 1% desktop market share.

    Linux still has a *long* way to go - just to catch up to Windows - but
    it *will* get there. Note MS's advanced release of Windows 7 (I think
    they're very worried - Vista was a marketing *disaster*). Windows 7
    will not be released (IMO) Jan next year - they'll get it out ASAP,
    probably last quarter of this year.

    Linux development has made good inroads as far as "office" apps go - a
    long way to go still - and, as said, good inroads into the desktop
    market (still a long way to go there too). Microsoft will continue
    (IMO) to "own" the desktop and office environments, but I wonder how far
    they can go (how much further they can go), and note how fast Linux is
    catching up.

    It will be a great day when it happens.

    --
    Duncan
     
    Dave Doe, May 7, 2009
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. impossible

    impossible Guest

    "Dave Doe" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > In article <iUpMl.687190$yE1.299487@attbi_s21>,
    > says...
    >> http://blogs.computerworld.com/linux_use_reached_1_world_yawns
    >>
    >> "Many people have made much of the fact that for the first time, Linux
    >> use
    >> as measured by Net Applications has crossed the 1% market share barrier.
    >> As
    >> significant milestones go, this is about as meaningless as it gets. ..."
    >>
    >> "To understand why, let's look at how Linux reached that 1% market share.
    >> Linux was first created in 1991 --- that's 18 years ago. To reach 1%
    >> market
    >> share in 18 years is not a particularly difficult task, especially
    >> considering that the operating system is available for free. For most of
    >> Linux's history, it wasn't even a blip on the radar of any market share
    >> figures, apart from server market share. There it's a strong presence,
    >> and
    >> deservedly so. It's a flat-out great operating system for servers. The
    >> desktop is where it's floundered, and for good reason. There are too many
    >> variants of it, and while it's gotten much easier to use, when you need
    >> to
    >> install software on it or update it, it's far too complicated...."
    >>
    >> "Why has Linux finally broken the 1% barrier? Because of netbooks.
    >> Initially, Linux had a big netbook market share of 30% or so. So the 1%
    >> breakthrough is due entirely to netbook use, not Linux use on desktops,
    >> where it still flounders. Sure, you can buy Linux on a Dell, if you try
    >> hard
    >> enough. But otherwise, good luck. And that's the way it will stay. Linux
    >> will never become a mainstream operating system on desktops, and so for
    >> client machines, it will remain largely confined to netbooks. Market
    >> surveys
    >> have shown that Linux sales on netbooks have plunged to only 10% of
    >> netbooks."

    >
    > Well if you ask me, I think the writer's got it all wrong. It's a great
    > milestone (IMO) that Linux has got a 1% desktop market share.
    >
    > Linux still has a *long* way to go - just to catch up to Windows - but
    > it *will* get there. Note MS's advanced release of Windows 7 (I think
    > they're very worried - Vista was a marketing *disaster*). Windows 7
    > will not be released (IMO) Jan next year - they'll get it out ASAP,
    > probably last quarter of this year.
    >
    > Linux development has made good inroads as far as "office" apps go - a
    > long way to go still - ....


    I don'tt knwo what you can possibl;y be talking about. The utter lack of
    professional-grade office apps for the nix platform is chiefly responsible
    for the failure of Linux to capture more than a tiny fraction of the desktop
    market.

    > and, as said, good inroads into the desktop
    > market (still a long way to go there too).


    1% every 18 years? Yeah, right. Long way to go.

    > Microsoft will continue
    > (IMO) to "own" the desktop and office environments, but I wonder how far
    > they can go (how much further they can go), and note how fast Linux is
    > catching up.
    >


    1% in 18 years! Is there anything else else on the planet that grows more
    slowly than the Linux desktop?

    > It will be a great day when it happens.
    >
    > --


    Hallelujah!
     
    impossible, May 7, 2009
    #3
  4. impossible

    Dave Doe Guest

    In article <7RqMl.687257$yE1.2972@attbi_s21>,
    says...
    >
    > "Dave Doe" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    > > In article <iUpMl.687190$yE1.299487@attbi_s21>,
    > > says...
    > >> http://blogs.computerworld.com/linux_use_reached_1_world_yawns
    > >>
    > >> "Many people have made much of the fact that for the first time, Linux
    > >> use
    > >> as measured by Net Applications has crossed the 1% market share barrier.
    > >> As
    > >> significant milestones go, this is about as meaningless as it gets. ..."
    > >>
    > >> "To understand why, let's look at how Linux reached that 1% market share.
    > >> Linux was first created in 1991 --- that's 18 years ago. To reach 1%
    > >> market
    > >> share in 18 years is not a particularly difficult task, especially
    > >> considering that the operating system is available for free. For most of
    > >> Linux's history, it wasn't even a blip on the radar of any market share
    > >> figures, apart from server market share. There it's a strong presence,
    > >> and
    > >> deservedly so. It's a flat-out great operating system for servers. The
    > >> desktop is where it's floundered, and for good reason. There are too many
    > >> variants of it, and while it's gotten much easier to use, when you need
    > >> to
    > >> install software on it or update it, it's far too complicated...."
    > >>
    > >> "Why has Linux finally broken the 1% barrier? Because of netbooks.
    > >> Initially, Linux had a big netbook market share of 30% or so. So the 1%
    > >> breakthrough is due entirely to netbook use, not Linux use on desktops,
    > >> where it still flounders. Sure, you can buy Linux on a Dell, if you try
    > >> hard
    > >> enough. But otherwise, good luck. And that's the way it will stay. Linux
    > >> will never become a mainstream operating system on desktops, and so for
    > >> client machines, it will remain largely confined to netbooks. Market
    > >> surveys
    > >> have shown that Linux sales on netbooks have plunged to only 10% of
    > >> netbooks."

    > >
    > > Well if you ask me, I think the writer's got it all wrong. It's a great
    > > milestone (IMO) that Linux has got a 1% desktop market share.
    > >
    > > Linux still has a *long* way to go - just to catch up to Windows - but
    > > it *will* get there. Note MS's advanced release of Windows 7 (I think
    > > they're very worried - Vista was a marketing *disaster*). Windows 7
    > > will not be released (IMO) Jan next year - they'll get it out ASAP,
    > > probably last quarter of this year.
    > >
    > > Linux development has made good inroads as far as "office" apps go - a
    > > long way to go still - ....

    >
    > I don'tt knwo what you can possibl;y be talking about. The utter lack of
    > professional-grade office apps for the nix platform is chiefly responsible
    > for the failure of Linux to capture more than a tiny fraction of the desktop
    > market.


    I agree, OpenOffice and Evolution are pretty awful - but they have
    advanced a lot - more than MS's Office IMO over time.

    >
    > > and, as said, good inroads into the desktop
    > > market (still a long way to go there too).

    >
    > 1% every 18 years? Yeah, right. Long way to go.


    Well if you think IT development, software wise (let alone hardware) is
    a linear development - enough said.

    --
    Duncan
     
    Dave Doe, May 7, 2009
    #4
  5. impossible

    Dave Doe Guest

    In article <>,
    says...
    > Dave Doe wrote:
    > >
    > > Linux still has a *long* way to go - just to catch up to Windows - but
    > > it *will* get there.

    >
    > Roll on 2096 .


    I'll take a bet with you - neither Microsoft or Linux will be around in
    2096.

    --
    Duncan
     
    Dave Doe, May 7, 2009
    #5
  6. impossible

    Lodi Guest

    > impossible wrote:

    > Hallelujah!


    I'll bite :)

    I'm just curious what you were trying to achieve by posting this (again).

    Do you honestly expect that the linux users here on nz.comp are going to say
    to themselves...

    "Gosh. Only 1% of the desktop market. I guess I'd better give up using my
    current system and head out to Dick Smiths and buy a Microsoft system.

    It may cost the best part of a couple of grand to get a Windows 7 machine
    but at least then I'll be one of the 87%

    I'll have to start thinking about viruses and trojans and root kits and all
    that stuff again but at least I'll be one of the 87%

    I'll have to start paying for software but at least I'll be one of the 87%

    I'll have to stop accepting open format files and only send out closed
    format files but at least I'll be one of the 87%

    I'll no longer be able to use the swiss army knife of computing (that's the
    command line for the uninitiated) but at least I'll be one of the
    87%....... actually I've got to stop there. I've just realized that if I
    was stupid enough to stop using the command line purely to be acceptable to
    you then I deserve to be one of the 87%

    Only 1% of the world drive a Lamborgini. I'm guessing the 87% drive
    something from General Motors. And guess who just filed for bankruptcy :)

    Regards
    Lodi
     
    Lodi, May 7, 2009
    #6
  7. impossible

    impossible Guest

    "Lodi" <> wrote in message
    news:gtth0e$nv9$...
    >> impossible wrote:


    >>>> http://blogs.computerworld.com/linux_use_reached_1_world_yawns
    >>>>
    >>>> "Many people have made much of the fact that for the first time, Linux
    >>>> use
    >>>> as measured by Net Applications has crossed the 1% market share
    >>>> barrier.
    >>>> As
    >>>> significant milestones go, this is about as meaningless as it gets.
    >>>> ..."
    >>>>
    >>>> "To understand why, let's look at how Linux reached that 1% market
    >>>> share.
    >>>> Linux was first created in 1991 --- that's 18 years ago. To reach 1%
    >>>> market
    >>>> share in 18 years is not a particularly difficult task, especially
    >>>> considering that the operating system is available for free. For most
    >>>> of
    >>>> Linux's history, it wasn't even a blip on the radar of any market share
    >>>> figures, apart from server market share. There it's a strong presence,
    >>>> and
    >>>> deservedly so. It's a flat-out great operating system for servers. The
    >>>> desktop is where it's floundered, and for good reason. There are too
    >>>> many
    >>>> variants of it, and while it's gotten much easier to use, when you need
    >>>> to
    >>>> install software on it or update it, it's far too complicated...."
    >>>>
    >>>> "Why has Linux finally broken the 1% barrier? Because of netbooks.
    >>>> Initially, Linux had a big netbook market share of 30% or so. So the 1%
    >>>> breakthrough is due entirely to netbook use, not Linux use on desktops,
    >>>> where it still flounders. Sure, you can buy Linux on a Dell, if you try
    >>>> hard
    >>>> enough. But otherwise, good luck. And that's the way it will stay.
    >>>> Linux
    >>>> will never become a mainstream operating system on desktops, and so for
    >>>> client machines, it will remain largely confined to netbooks. Market
    >>>> surveys
    >>>> have shown that Linux sales on netbooks have plunged to only 10% of
    >>>> netbooks."
    >>>
    >>> Well if you ask me, I think the writer's got it all wrong. It's a great
    >>> milestone (IMO) that Linux has got a 1% desktop market share.
    >>>
    >>> Linux still has a *long* way to go - just to catch up to Windows - but
    >>> it *will* get there. Note MS's advanced release of Windows 7 (I think
    >>> they're very worried - Vista was a marketing *disaster*). Windows 7
    >>> will not be released (IMO) Jan next year - they'll get it out ASAP,
    >>> probably last quarter of this year.
    >>>
    >>> Linux development has made good inroads as far as "office" apps go - a
    >>> long way to go still - ....

    >>
    >> I don'tt knwo what you can possibl;y be talking about. The utter lack of
    >> professional-grade office apps for the nix platform is chiefly
    >> responsible
    >> for the failure of Linux to capture more than a tiny fraction of the
    >> desktop
    >> market.
    >>
    >>> and, as said, good inroads into the desktop
    >>> market (still a long way to go there too).

    >>
    >> 1% every 18 years? Yeah, right. Long way to go.
    >>
    >>> Microsoft will continue
    >>> (IMO) to "own" the desktop and office environments, but I wonder how far
    >>> they can go (how much further they can go), and note how fast Linux is
    >>> catching up.
    >>>

    >>
    >> 1% in 18 years! Is there anything else else on the planet that grows more
    >> slowly than the Linux desktop?
    >>
    >>> It will be a great day when it happens.
    >>>
    >>> --

    >>
    >> Hallelujah!
    >>>

    > I'll bite :)
    >
    > I'm just curious what you were trying to achieve by posting this (again).
    >


    Discussion?

    > Do you honestly expect that the linux users here on nz.comp are going to
    > say
    > to themselves...
    >
    > "Gosh. Only 1% of the desktop market. I guess I'd better give up using my
    > current system and head out to Dick Smiths and buy a Microsoft system.
    >


    No. Your life currently revolves around the intricacies of an os that almost
    no one care about. That makes you feel cool -- kind of a renegade type. Plus
    you have no job so you building a system that caters to doing real work has
    absolutely no appeal to you.

    > It may cost the best part of a couple of grand to get a Windows 7 machine
    > but at least then I'll be one of the 87%
    >
    > I'll have to start thinking about viruses and trojans and root kits and
    > all
    > that stuff again but at least I'll be one of the 87%
    >
    > I'll have to start paying for software but at least I'll be one of the 87%
    >
    > I'll have to stop accepting open format files and only send out closed
    > format files but at least I'll be one of the 87%
    >
    > I'll no longer be able to use the swiss army knife of computing (that's
    > the
    > command line for the uninitiated) but at least I'll be one of the
    > 87%....... actually I've got to stop there. I've just realized that if I
    > was stupid enough to stop using the command line purely to be acceptable
    > to
    > you then I deserve to be one of the 87%
    >
    > Only 1% of the world drive a Lamborgini. I'm guessing the 87% drive
    > something from General Motors. And guess who just filed for bankruptcy :)
    >


    What is it with Linuxheads that they can never manage a single decent
    analogy.
     
    impossible, May 7, 2009
    #7
  8. impossible

    impossible Guest

    "Dave Doe" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > In article <7RqMl.687257$yE1.2972@attbi_s21>,
    > says...
    >>
    >> "Dave Doe" <> wrote in message
    >> news:...
    >> > In article <iUpMl.687190$yE1.299487@attbi_s21>,
    >> > says...
    >> >> http://blogs.computerworld.com/linux_use_reached_1_world_yawns
    >> >>
    >> >> "Many people have made much of the fact that for the first time, Linux
    >> >> use
    >> >> as measured by Net Applications has crossed the 1% market share
    >> >> barrier.
    >> >> As
    >> >> significant milestones go, this is about as meaningless as it gets.
    >> >> ..."
    >> >>
    >> >> "To understand why, let's look at how Linux reached that 1% market
    >> >> share.
    >> >> Linux was first created in 1991 --- that's 18 years ago. To reach 1%
    >> >> market
    >> >> share in 18 years is not a particularly difficult task, especially
    >> >> considering that the operating system is available for free. For most
    >> >> of
    >> >> Linux's history, it wasn't even a blip on the radar of any market
    >> >> share
    >> >> figures, apart from server market share. There it's a strong presence,
    >> >> and
    >> >> deservedly so. It's a flat-out great operating system for servers. The
    >> >> desktop is where it's floundered, and for good reason. There are too
    >> >> many
    >> >> variants of it, and while it's gotten much easier to use, when you
    >> >> need
    >> >> to
    >> >> install software on it or update it, it's far too complicated...."
    >> >>
    >> >> "Why has Linux finally broken the 1% barrier? Because of netbooks.
    >> >> Initially, Linux had a big netbook market share of 30% or so. So the
    >> >> 1%
    >> >> breakthrough is due entirely to netbook use, not Linux use on
    >> >> desktops,
    >> >> where it still flounders. Sure, you can buy Linux on a Dell, if you
    >> >> try
    >> >> hard
    >> >> enough. But otherwise, good luck. And that's the way it will stay.
    >> >> Linux
    >> >> will never become a mainstream operating system on desktops, and so
    >> >> for
    >> >> client machines, it will remain largely confined to netbooks. Market
    >> >> surveys
    >> >> have shown that Linux sales on netbooks have plunged to only 10% of
    >> >> netbooks."
    >> >
    >> > Well if you ask me, I think the writer's got it all wrong. It's a
    >> > great
    >> > milestone (IMO) that Linux has got a 1% desktop market share.
    >> >
    >> > Linux still has a *long* way to go - just to catch up to Windows - but
    >> > it *will* get there. Note MS's advanced release of Windows 7 (I think
    >> > they're very worried - Vista was a marketing *disaster*). Windows 7
    >> > will not be released (IMO) Jan next year - they'll get it out ASAP,
    >> > probably last quarter of this year.
    >> >
    >> > Linux development has made good inroads as far as "office" apps go - a
    >> > long way to go still - ....

    >>
    >> I don'tt knwo what you can possibl;y be talking about. The utter lack of
    >> professional-grade office apps for the nix platform is chiefly
    >> responsible
    >> for the failure of Linux to capture more than a tiny fraction of the
    >> desktop
    >> market.

    >
    > I agree, OpenOffice and Evolution are pretty awful - but they have
    > advanced a lot - more than MS's Office IMO over time.


    I wouldn't hold my breath for the next "advance" if I were you. The
    OpenOffice project is in complete disarray at this point. Headed nowhere.

    >>
    >>
    >> > and, as said, good inroads into the desktop
    >> > market (still a long way to go there too).

    >>
    >> 1% every 18 years? Yeah, right. Long way to go.

    >
    > Well if you think IT development, software wise (let alone hardware) is
    > a linear development - enough said.
    >
    >> 1% in 18 years! Is there anything else else on the planet that grows more
    >> slowly than the Linux desktop?


    Well, is there?
     
    impossible, May 7, 2009
    #8
  9. impossible

    Dave Doe Guest

    In article <7ysMl.687404$yE1.522901@attbi_s21>,
    says...
    >
    > "Dave Doe" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    > > In article <7RqMl.687257$yE1.2972@attbi_s21>,
    > > says...
    > >>
    > >> "Dave Doe" <> wrote in message
    > >> news:...
    > >> > In article <iUpMl.687190$yE1.299487@attbi_s21>,
    > >> > says...
    > >> >> http://blogs.computerworld.com/linux_use_reached_1_world_yawns
    > >> >>
    > >> >> "Many people have made much of the fact that for the first time, Linux
    > >> >> use
    > >> >> as measured by Net Applications has crossed the 1% market share
    > >> >> barrier.
    > >> >> As
    > >> >> significant milestones go, this is about as meaningless as it gets.
    > >> >> ..."
    > >> >>
    > >> >> "To understand why, let's look at how Linux reached that 1% market
    > >> >> share.
    > >> >> Linux was first created in 1991 --- that's 18 years ago. To reach 1%
    > >> >> market
    > >> >> share in 18 years is not a particularly difficult task, especially
    > >> >> considering that the operating system is available for free. For most
    > >> >> of
    > >> >> Linux's history, it wasn't even a blip on the radar of any market
    > >> >> share
    > >> >> figures, apart from server market share. There it's a strong presence,
    > >> >> and
    > >> >> deservedly so. It's a flat-out great operating system for servers. The
    > >> >> desktop is where it's floundered, and for good reason. There are too
    > >> >> many
    > >> >> variants of it, and while it's gotten much easier to use, when you
    > >> >> need
    > >> >> to
    > >> >> install software on it or update it, it's far too complicated...."
    > >> >>
    > >> >> "Why has Linux finally broken the 1% barrier? Because of netbooks.
    > >> >> Initially, Linux had a big netbook market share of 30% or so. So the
    > >> >> 1%
    > >> >> breakthrough is due entirely to netbook use, not Linux use on
    > >> >> desktops,
    > >> >> where it still flounders. Sure, you can buy Linux on a Dell, if you
    > >> >> try
    > >> >> hard
    > >> >> enough. But otherwise, good luck. And that's the way it will stay.
    > >> >> Linux
    > >> >> will never become a mainstream operating system on desktops, and so
    > >> >> for
    > >> >> client machines, it will remain largely confined to netbooks. Market
    > >> >> surveys
    > >> >> have shown that Linux sales on netbooks have plunged to only 10% of
    > >> >> netbooks."
    > >> >
    > >> > Well if you ask me, I think the writer's got it all wrong. It's a
    > >> > great
    > >> > milestone (IMO) that Linux has got a 1% desktop market share.
    > >> >
    > >> > Linux still has a *long* way to go - just to catch up to Windows - but
    > >> > it *will* get there. Note MS's advanced release of Windows 7 (I think
    > >> > they're very worried - Vista was a marketing *disaster*). Windows 7
    > >> > will not be released (IMO) Jan next year - they'll get it out ASAP,
    > >> > probably last quarter of this year.
    > >> >
    > >> > Linux development has made good inroads as far as "office" apps go - a
    > >> > long way to go still - ....
    > >>
    > >> I don'tt knwo what you can possibl;y be talking about. The utter lack of
    > >> professional-grade office apps for the nix platform is chiefly
    > >> responsible
    > >> for the failure of Linux to capture more than a tiny fraction of the
    > >> desktop
    > >> market.

    > >
    > > I agree, OpenOffice and Evolution are pretty awful - but they have
    > > advanced a lot - more than MS's Office IMO over time.

    >
    > I wouldn't hold my breath for the next "advance" if I were you. The
    > OpenOffice project is in complete disarray at this point. Headed nowhere.
    >
    > >>
    > >>
    > >> > and, as said, good inroads into the desktop
    > >> > market (still a long way to go there too).
    > >>
    > >> 1% every 18 years? Yeah, right. Long way to go.

    > >
    > > Well if you think IT development, software wise (let alone hardware) is
    > > a linear development - enough said.
    > >
    > >> 1% in 18 years! Is there anything else else on the planet that grows more
    > >> slowly than the Linux desktop?

    >
    > Well, is there?


    You seriously expect an answer, surely you need to provide a serious
    question.

    In it's current form and context, the answer is yes - trillions of
    things... you, me, most humans, many animals - and that's just on a
    small scale of time. Do we go into the universe itself?

    Moving away from your farcical question, what about something more
    serious, such as:
    Has Linux evolved in a linear fashion?

    Perhaps another way of looking at it: Has the Linux desktop market grown
    much in just the last 1 or 2 or 3 years?

    Leads to other questions too: how dis computerworld (or whoever did the
    counting) do the counting? (How do they know and count the folk that
    have installed Linux themselves?) - they didn't, it's just based on net
    apps. Also consider that most distros have been created in the last few
    years, not 18 years - infact it's a bit unfair to say Linux is 18 years
    old. Is it a good comparison?, are they good numbers? - not really eh.

    --
    Duncan
     
    Dave Doe, May 7, 2009
    #9
  10. impossible

    Lodi Guest

    > impossible wrote:
    >
    >> "Lodi" <> wrote in message
    >>
    >> I'm just curious what you were trying to achieve by posting this (again).
    >>

    > Discussion?
    >

    Yeah right....it's just trolling. You know it. I know it. It's part of the
    fun of nz.comp
    >
    > Your life currently revolves around the intricacies of an os that
    > almost no one cares about. That makes you feel cool -- kind of a renegade
    > type.


    Certainly not a renegade but I've definitely acquired the air of smug
    superiority which most linux users have. Hard not to feel smug when pretty
    much all linux users have previously used and subsequently discarded
    Windows in favour of something we've found to be superior.

    The big achilles heel of MS'ers criticizing Linux is that hardly any of them
    have used Linux. And those that have and have failed to make the change
    *always* blame the tool, never themselves. I think those MS'ers get upset
    the most because there are so many people saying Linux is great but these
    unfortunates can't seem to get it working. All their years of hard-earned
    MS knowledge count for naught and they're left standing on the outside
    looking in.

    > Plus you have no job


    I was actually able to stop working when I was forty *because* of my
    knowledge of computers. Am just living off investments for (hopefully) the
    rest of my days.

    > so you building a system that caters to doing
    > real work has absolutely no appeal to you.
    >


    Real work???? You mean like all those millions of Windows 98/XP/Vista users
    who are doing "real work" on their system.....

    How many of your 87% (who bought their copy of 98/XP/Vista pre-loaded at
    Dick Smiths) need a national ticketing system or a database with a million
    entries or a secure electronic cash payment system. Pretty much none.

    Real work = email, web browsing, reconcile the bank statement, edit a few
    photos, do some word processing, burn a few dvd's, download a few torrents,
    check out the shills on nz.comp

    > What is it with Linuxheads that they can never manage a single decent
    > analogy.


    You're just envious. Admit it.........on second thoughts, you're not one of
    those "tried Linux and couldn't get it to work" MS'ers are you.


    Regards
    Lodi
     
    Lodi, May 7, 2009
    #10
  11. impossible

    Gordon Guest

    On 2009-05-07, impossible <> wrote:
    > http://blogs.computerworld.com/linux_use_reached_1_world_yawns
    >

    Pity you have not joined them.

    The real point is that after 18 years Linux is still powering along. So is
    the Apple. People are using both OS.

    Also OSS is not restricted to Linux.

    OSS powers all sorts of non desktop equipment, routers, modems NAS, etc

    Linux maybebe "not on the desktop" but it all around and over the place,
    including on desktops.

    Still media have to sell copies eh, just like MS.
     
    Gordon, May 7, 2009
    #11
  12. impossible

    Jack Spratt Guest

    "Gordon" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On 2009-05-07, impossible <> wrote:
    >> http://blogs.computerworld.com/linux_use_reached_1_world_yawns
    >>

    > Pity you have not joined them.
    >
    > The real point is that after 18 years Linux is still powering along. So is
    > the Apple. People are using both OS.
    >
    > Also OSS is not restricted to Linux.
    >
    > OSS powers all sorts of non desktop equipment, routers, modems NAS, etc
    >
    > Linux maybebe "not on the desktop" but it all around and over the place,
    > including on desktops.
    >
    > Still media have to sell copies eh, just like MS.
    >



    Just like the bogun argument over Ford Vs Holden, I don't get the Linux/MS
    thing.
    It is (almost) the one constant that I have encountered over 15 years
    online.
    There is no right or wrong and unfortunately no end.

    It seems that either party feels the need to justify their choice (LO'D
    being the most frequent offender).
    We have reasons for choosing. I certainly don't feel I need to
    explain/boast/justify/belittle.
     
    Jack Spratt, May 7, 2009
    #12
  13. impossible

    Rhino Guest

    On Thu, 7 May 2009 21:02:44 +1200, "Jack Spratt"
    <pickledpork@_nospam_gmail.com> wrote:
    >Just like the bogun argument over Ford Vs Holden, I don't get the Linux/MS
    >thing.

    Agreed. I use Windows, Linux and BSD at work, and all do the required
    tasks without problems.
    >It is (almost) the one constant that I have encountered over 15 years
    >online.

    Make that over 20 years for me. I started out with a Unix shell
    account in Chch before "The Web" existed. TIN was my newsreader and
    Pine my email client. *nix and Windows wars weregoing on way back
    then. :(
    >There is no right or wrong and unfortunately no end.

    Very true.
    >It seems that either party feels the need to justify their choice (LO'D
    >being the most frequent offender).
    >We have reasons for choosing. I certainly don't feel I need to
    >explain/boast/justify/belittle.

    Bling to you. Let's just get on and use the tools we have chosen.

    Cheers, Rhino
     
    Rhino, May 7, 2009
    #13
  14. impossible

    impossible Guest

    "Dave Doe" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > In article <7ysMl.687404$yE1.522901@attbi_s21>,
    > says...
    >>
    >> "Dave Doe" <> wrote in message
    >> news:...
    >> > In article <7RqMl.687257$yE1.2972@attbi_s21>,
    >> > says...
    >> >>
    >> >> "Dave Doe" <> wrote in message
    >> >> news:...
    >> >> > In article <iUpMl.687190$yE1.299487@attbi_s21>,
    >> >> >
    >> >> > says...
    >> >> >> http://blogs.computerworld.com/linux_use_reached_1_world_yawns
    >> >> >>
    >> >> >> "Many people have made much of the fact that for the first time,
    >> >> >> Linux
    >> >> >> use
    >> >> >> as measured by Net Applications has crossed the 1% market share
    >> >> >> barrier.
    >> >> >> As
    >> >> >> significant milestones go, this is about as meaningless as it gets.
    >> >> >> ..."
    >> >> >>
    >> >> >> "To understand why, let's look at how Linux reached that 1% market
    >> >> >> share.
    >> >> >> Linux was first created in 1991 --- that's 18 years ago. To reach
    >> >> >> 1%
    >> >> >> market
    >> >> >> share in 18 years is not a particularly difficult task, especially
    >> >> >> considering that the operating system is available for free. For
    >> >> >> most
    >> >> >> of
    >> >> >> Linux's history, it wasn't even a blip on the radar of any market
    >> >> >> share
    >> >> >> figures, apart from server market share. There it's a strong
    >> >> >> presence,
    >> >> >> and
    >> >> >> deservedly so. It's a flat-out great operating system for servers.
    >> >> >> The
    >> >> >> desktop is where it's floundered, and for good reason. There are
    >> >> >> too
    >> >> >> many
    >> >> >> variants of it, and while it's gotten much easier to use, when you
    >> >> >> need
    >> >> >> to
    >> >> >> install software on it or update it, it's far too complicated...."
    >> >> >>
    >> >> >> "Why has Linux finally broken the 1% barrier? Because of netbooks.
    >> >> >> Initially, Linux had a big netbook market share of 30% or so. So
    >> >> >> the
    >> >> >> 1%
    >> >> >> breakthrough is due entirely to netbook use, not Linux use on
    >> >> >> desktops,
    >> >> >> where it still flounders. Sure, you can buy Linux on a Dell, if you
    >> >> >> try
    >> >> >> hard
    >> >> >> enough. But otherwise, good luck. And that's the way it will stay.
    >> >> >> Linux
    >> >> >> will never become a mainstream operating system on desktops, and so
    >> >> >> for
    >> >> >> client machines, it will remain largely confined to netbooks.
    >> >> >> Market
    >> >> >> surveys
    >> >> >> have shown that Linux sales on netbooks have plunged to only 10% of
    >> >> >> netbooks."
    >> >> >
    >> >> > Well if you ask me, I think the writer's got it all wrong. It's a
    >> >> > great
    >> >> > milestone (IMO) that Linux has got a 1% desktop market share.
    >> >> >
    >> >> > Linux still has a *long* way to go - just to catch up to Windows -
    >> >> > but
    >> >> > it *will* get there. Note MS's advanced release of Windows 7 (I
    >> >> > think
    >> >> > they're very worried - Vista was a marketing *disaster*). Windows 7
    >> >> > will not be released (IMO) Jan next year - they'll get it out ASAP,
    >> >> > probably last quarter of this year.
    >> >> >
    >> >> > Linux development has made good inroads as far as "office" apps go -
    >> >> > a
    >> >> > long way to go still - ....
    >> >>
    >> >> I don'tt knwo what you can possibl;y be talking about. The utter lack
    >> >> of
    >> >> professional-grade office apps for the nix platform is chiefly
    >> >> responsible
    >> >> for the failure of Linux to capture more than a tiny fraction of the
    >> >> desktop
    >> >> market.
    >> >
    >> > I agree, OpenOffice and Evolution are pretty awful - but they have
    >> > advanced a lot - more than MS's Office IMO over time.

    >>
    >> I wouldn't hold my breath for the next "advance" if I were you. The
    >> OpenOffice project is in complete disarray at this point. Headed nowhere.
    >>
    >> >>
    >> >>
    >> >> > and, as said, good inroads into the desktop
    >> >> > market (still a long way to go there too).
    >> >>
    >> >> 1% every 18 years? Yeah, right. Long way to go.
    >> >
    >> > Well if you think IT development, software wise (let alone hardware) is
    >> > a linear development - enough said.
    >> >
    >> >> 1% in 18 years! Is there anything else else on the planet that grows
    >> >> more
    >> >> slowly than the Linux desktop?

    >>
    >> Well, is there?

    >
    > You seriously expect an answer, surely you need to provide a serious
    > question.
    >
    > In it's current form and context, the answer is yes - trillions of
    > things... you, me, most humans, many animals - and that's just on a
    > small scale of time. Do we go into the universe itself?
    >


    <shakes head> Product market share -- that's what we were talking about. Is
    there anything else else on the planet that grows more
    slowly than the Linux desktop?

    > Moving away from your farcical question, what about something more
    > serious, such as:
    > Has Linux evolved in a linear fashion?
    >


    No. Which is even more disappointing for the Linux fanboys, I would think.

    > Perhaps another way of looking at it: Has the Linux desktop market grown
    > much in just the last 1 or 2 or 3 years?
    >


    No. Got any evidence to say otherwise?

    > Leads to other questions too: how dis computerworld (or whoever did the
    > counting) do the counting? (How do they know and count the folk that
    > have installed Linux themselves?) - they didn't, it's just based on net
    > apps. Also consider that most distros have been created in the last few
    > years, not 18 years - infact it's a bit unfair to say Linux is 18 years
    > old. Is it a good comparison?, are they good numbers? - not really eh.
    >
    > --


    Read the article. That's why I supply links:

    http://blogs.computerworld.com/linux_use_reached_1_world_yawns

    The study was done by Net Applications, which keeps a running tally of these
    things available to anyone. The survey methodology, which counts any
    appliance (pc, netbook, phone) as a "desktop" certainly flatters Linux.
     
    impossible, May 7, 2009
    #14
  15. impossible

    impossible Guest

    "Lodi" <> wrote in message
    news:gtu3g0$qof$...
    >> impossible wrote:
    >>
    >>> "Lodi" <> wrote in message
    >>>
    >>> I'm just curious what you were trying to achieve by posting this
    >>> (again).
    >>>

    >> Discussion?
    >>

    > Yeah right....it's just trolling. You know it. I know it. It's part of the
    > fun of nz.comp
    >>
    >> Your life currently revolves around the intricacies of an os that
    >> almost no one cares about. That makes you feel cool -- kind of a renegade
    >> type.

    >
    > Certainly not a renegade but I've definitely acquired the air of smug
    > superiority which most linux users have. Hard not to feel smug when pretty
    > much all linux users have previously used and subsequently discarded
    > Windows in favour of something we've found to be superior.
    >



    Superior for what? There are no professional-grade applications for the
    Linux desktop.

    What do you do with a Linux machine exactly? Spend your day booting and
    rebooting (quickly, I understand -- woohoo)? Rebuilding distros? Figuring
    out new command-line commands.

    > The big achilles heel of MS'ers criticizing Linux is that hardly any of
    > them
    > have used Linux. And those that have and have failed to make the change
    > *always* blame the tool, never themselves. I think those MS'ers get upset
    > the most because there are so many people saying Linux is great but these
    > unfortunates can't seem to get it working. All their years of hard-earned
    > MS knowledge count for naught and they're left standing on the outside
    > looking in.
    >


    Most users, myself included, pick an os based on its suitability as a
    platform for applications. Until someone create those applications, the
    "Linux desktop" will remain a mirage.

    >> Plus you have no job

    >
    > I was actually able to stop working when I was forty *because* of my
    > knowledge of computers. Am just living off investments for (hopefully) the
    > rest of my days.
    >


    Ok, so you're a hobbyist now. That makes sense. If I had all the time in the
    world on my hands, I'd tinker, too.

    >> so you building a system that caters to doing
    >> real work has absolutely no appeal to you.
    >>

    >
    > Real work???? You mean like all those millions of Windows 98/XP/Vista
    > users
    > who are doing "real work" on their system.....
    >


    Yes. The world's largest and most successful businesses run Windows
    applications on Windows desktops.

    > How many of your 87% (who bought their copy of 98/XP/Vista pre-loaded at
    > Dick Smiths) need a national ticketing system or a database with a million
    > entries or a secure electronic cash payment system. Pretty much none.
    >


    True, and yet they still can't be bothered with Linux.

    > Real work = email, web browsing, reconcile the bank statement, edit a few
    > photos, do some word processing, burn a few dvd's, download a few
    > torrents,
    > check out the shills on nz.comp
    >


    And you prefer Linux for this "work" why exactly?

    >> What is it with Linuxheads that they can never manage a single decent
    >> analogy.

    >
    > You're just envious. Admit it.........on second thoughts, you're not one
    > of
    > those "tried Linux and couldn't get it to work" MS'ers are you.
    >
    >


    Linux without professional-grade applications is useless to me. But have fun
    with your hobby.
     
    impossible, May 7, 2009
    #15
  16. impossible

    Guest

    >On May 8, 12:05 am, "impossible" <> wrote:
    >
    > Ok, so you're a hobbyist now. That makes sense. If I had all the time in the
    > world on my hands, I'd tinker, too.
    >


    A hobbyist.....a HOBBYIST !!!!!!!
    I'll have you know it says "IT Consultant" on the business cards I've
    just printed up (using Open Office)


    And why can't I call myself a "consultant". Word of mouth has people
    coming to me for my opinion and assistance. They offer me money to
    help them out which, for the record, I *always* decline (unless
    there's travel involved).

    I advise them on the pros and cons of their current system (invariably
    Windows) and how having Ubuntu as a dual-boot backup can help out.

    Over the last few years I've built up a "customer base" of about
    forty. Friends, family, neighbours, friends of neighbours
    friends....the usual.

    I even offer 24/7 phone support for those who choose the dual-boot
    option.

    If that doesn't make me a consultant I don't know what does. I guess I
    could buy a suit and tie.

    >
    > Yes. The world's largest and most successful businesses run Windows
    > applications on Windows desktops.
    >


    Yes. The employees of the aforementioned "world's largest and most
    successful businesses" are running Windows applications. Cutting-edge
    applications that do all sorts of things like ummmmm........ send
    emails, write reports for the boss, keep customer records, browse
    TradeMe, track appointments. You've convinced me.

    Lodi
     
    , May 8, 2009
    #16
  17. impossible

    impossible Guest

    <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >>On May 8, 12:05 am, "impossible" <> wrote:
    >> "Lodi" <> wrote in message
    >> news:gtu3g0$qof$...
    >>>> impossible wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> "Lodi" <> wrote in message
    >>>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> Your life currently revolves around the intricacies of an os that
    >>>> almost no one cares about. That makes you feel cool -- kind of a
    >>>> renegade
    >>>> type.
    >>>
    >>> Certainly not a renegade but I've definitely acquired the air of smug
    >>> superiority which most linux users have. Hard not to feel smug when
    >>> pretty
    >>> much all linux users have previously used and subsequently discarded
    >>> Windows in favour of something we've found to be superior.
    >>>

    >>
    >> Superior for what? There are no professional-grade applications for the
    >> Linux desktop.
    >>
    >> What do you do with a Linux machine exactly? Spend your day booting and
    >> rebooting (quickly, I understand -- woohoo)? Rebuilding distros?
    >> Figuring
    >> out new command-line commands.
    >>
    >>> The big achilles heel of MS'ers criticizing Linux is that hardly any of
    >>> them
    >>> have used Linux. And those that have and have failed to make the change
    >>> *always* blame the tool, never themselves. I think those MS'ers get
    >>> upset
    >>> the most because there are so many people saying Linux is great but
    >>> these
    >>> unfortunates can't seem to get it working. All their years of
    >>> hard-earned
    >>> MS knowledge count for naught and they're left standing on the outside
    >>> looking in.
    >>>

    >>
    >> Most users, myself included, pick an os based on its suitability as a
    >> platform for applications. Until someone create those applications, the
    >> "Linux desktop" will remain a mirage.
    >>
    >>>> Plus you have no job
    >>>
    >>> I was actually able to stop working when I was forty *because* of my
    >>> knowledge of computers. Am just living off investments for (hopefully)
    >>> the
    >>> rest of my days.
    >>>

    >>
    >> Ok, so you're a hobbyist now. That makes sense. If I had all the time in
    >> the
    >> world on my hands, I'd tinker, too.
    >>
    >> A hobbyist.....a HOBBYIST !!!!!!!
    >> I'll have you know it says "IT Consultant" on the business cards I've
    >> just printed up (using Open Office)
    > >

    >
    > <shakes head> Just printed those up, did you? "Lodi the IT Consultant".
    > Cool! I think I'll go out tonight and get somthing like that myself.
    >
    >
    >> And why can't I call myself a "consultant". Word of mouth has people
    >> coming to me for my opinion and assistance. They offer me money to
    >> help them out which, for the record, I *always* decline (unless
    >> there's travel involved).
    >>
    >> I advise them on the pros and cons of their current system (invariably
    >> Windows) and how having Ubuntu as a dual-boot backup can help out.
    >>
    > >
    >> Over the last few years I've built up a "customer base" of about
    >> forty. Friends, family, neighbours, friends of neighbours
    >> friends....the usual.

    >
    >> I even offer 24/7 phone support for those who choose the dual-boot
    >> option.

    >
    >
    >> If that doesn't make me a consultant I don't know what does.
    >>

    >
    > <shakes head> You've just touted your credentials as a telephone
    > help-desk operator. Have another go.


    >>I guess I could buy a suit and tie.

    >


    Wouldn't help. You're a hobbyist with an axe to grind.

    >>>> so you building a system that caters to doing
    >>>> real work has absolutely no appeal to you.
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>> Real work???? You mean like all those millions of Windows 98/XP/Vista
    >>> users
    >>> who are doing "real work" on their system.....
    >>>

    >> Yes. The world's largest and most successful businesses run Windows
    >> applications on Windows desktops.
    >>

    >
    > Yes. The employees of the aforementioned "world's largest and most
    > successful businesses" are running Windows applications. Cutting-edge
    > applications that do all sorts of things like ummmmm........ send
    > emails, write reports for the boss, keep customer records, browse
    > TradeMe, track appointments. You've convinced me.
    >


    You're an ignorant sod, aren't you? Try reading a bit to fill in the blanks.
     
    impossible, May 8, 2009
    #17
  18. impossible

    Guest

    > On May 8, 7:02 pm, whoisthis <> wrote:
    >
    > ROTFL... being able to print a card does NOT make you a consultant.
    >


    Damn. And I spent all afternoon colouring them in with a brand new
    pack of 24 different coloured felt tip pens I bought from the
    Warehouse specifically for the job. Guess that was a waste of time.
    Might as well cancel the order for the suit, tie and open-toed sandals
    while I'm at it.

    >
    > You are NOT a good consultant. All the good consultants I have come
    > across recognise that the most expensive part of the computer is now the
    > user. Making the user more productive (which is not the same as making
    > them busy) is the  most important thing, this looks at what applications
    > are needed, which applications the user is most familiar with then once
    > those decisions have been made then the OS that they run on can be
    > decided.
    >
    >

    Anyway, having read your job description I've decided I don't want to
    be an IT consultant. Too much touchy-feely holistic "work smarter, not
    harder" managerial gobbledy-gook. My "customers" phone me with a
    specific problem and expect a detailed solution pretty much straight
    away. For example........

    Three calls yesterday.

    Number one wanted advice on sending a 3MB jpg as an email attachment.
    Solution = Right-click/Open with GIMP/crop/scale/adjust colour levels
    (optional)/file save for web/resulting file was 130K

    Number two wanted to do a clean install of XP on a blank HD
    Solution=F2 at bootup/arrow to boot options/F5 CD-ROM to 1/insert XP
    CD/F10/product key is on the case

    Number three wanted to ditch the crippled webcam software that came
    bundled with XP for something more feature-filled.
    Solution=Boot into Ubuntu partition (one I prepared earlier)/Terminal/
    sudo apt-get install luvcview cheese avidemux/links to avidemux-wiki/
    talk through luvcview/cheese just follow your nose

    Specific problems and detailed solutions. If I had a chest they'd give
    me a medal.

    Regards
    Lodi
     
    , May 8, 2009
    #18
  19. impossible

    Guest

    > On May 8, 11:57 pm, "impossible" <> wrote:

    >
    > <shakes head> Just printed those up, did you? "Lodi the IT Consultant".
    > Cool! I think I'll go out tonight and get somthing like that myself.
    >


    >  <shakes head> You've just touted your credentials as a telephone
    > help-desk operator. Have another go.



    Yep. I've already been shown by whoisthis that I can't cut the mustard
    as an IT consultant. Damn disappointing.

    But as we speak I'm printing up another batch of cards with "Helpdesk
    IT Support".
    Is that okay with you?


    > You're an ignorant sod, aren't you? Try reading a bit to fill in the blanks.


    Woohoo. Name calling. That's a personal insult. Thread over. I win.
    You lose.

    My turn......just cos MS pay you to hang out in newsgroups it doesn't
    mean you work in IT.

    See you in your next thread

    Lodi :)
     
    , May 9, 2009
    #19
  20. impossible

    impossible Guest

    <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On May 8, 7:02 pm, whoisthis <> wrote:
    >>
    >> ROTFL... being able to print a card does NOT make you a consultant.
    >>

    >
    > Damn. And I spent all afternoon colouring them in with a brand new
    > pack of 24 different coloured felt tip pens I bought from the
    > Warehouse specifically for the job. Guess that was a waste of time.
    > Might as well cancel the order for the suit, tie and open-toed sandals
    > while I'm at it.
    >
    >>
    >> You are NOT a good consultant. All the good consultants I have come
    >> across recognise that the most expensive part of the computer is now the
    >> user. Making the user more productive (which is not the same as making
    >> them busy) is the most important thing, this looks at what applications
    >> are needed, which applications the user is most familiar with then once
    >> those decisions have been made then the OS that they run on can be
    >> decided.
    >>
    >>

    > Anyway, having read your job description I've decided I don't want to
    > be an IT consultant. Too much touchy-feely holistic "work smarter, not
    > harder" managerial gobbledy-gook. My "customers" phone me with a
    > specific problem and expect a detailed solution pretty much straight
    > away. For example........
    >
    > Three calls yesterday.
    >
    > Number one wanted advice on sending a 3MB jpg as an email attachment.
    > Solution = Right-click/Open with GIMP/crop/scale/adjust colour levels
    >(optional)/file save for web/resulting file was 130K
    >
    > Number two wanted to do a clean install of XP on a blank HD
    > Solution=F2 at bootup/arrow to boot options/F5 CD-ROM to 1/insert XP
    > CD/F10/product key is on the case
    >
    > Number three wanted to ditch the crippled webcam software that came
    > bundled with XP for something more feature-filled.
    > Solution=Boot into Ubuntu partition (one I prepared earlier)/Terminal/
    > sudo apt-get install luvcview cheese avidemux/links to avidemux-wiki/
    > talk through luvcview/cheese just follow your nose
    >
    > Specific problems and detailed solutions. If I had a chest they'd give
    > me a medal.
    >


    Sorry, the help-desk job has been filled.
     
    impossible, May 9, 2009
    #20
    1. Advertising

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