Linux, DVD's and GPLv3

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Jul 28, 2007.

  1. In message <f8dvjt$5bb$>, Mickey Mouse wrote:

    > Do they individually sign an
    > agreement with MPEG LA allowing them to make use of patented IP to ensure
    > they aren't in breach?


    Patented under which jurisdictions?
     
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Jul 28, 2007
    #1
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  2. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Mickey Mouse Guest

    Just how do Linux users legally play MPEG2 encoded data (used in DVD's)
    without an accompanying licence to do so? Do they individually sign an
    agreement with MPEG LA allowing them to make use of patented IP to ensure
    they aren't in breach? And just what are the implications of entering into
    such licensing agreements under GPLv3?

    http://www.mpegla.com/m2/
     
    Mickey Mouse, Jul 28, 2007
    #2
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  3. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    impossible Guest

    "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <_zealand> wrote in message
    news:f8dvs2$qs8$...
    > In message <f8dvjt$5bb$>, Mickey Mouse wrote:
    >
    >> Do they individually sign an
    >> agreement with MPEG LA allowing them to make use of patented IP to ensure
    >> they aren't in breach?

    >
    > Patented under which jurisdictions?
    >


    Since IP is now globally protected by the WTO, it doesn't matter.
     
    impossible, Jul 28, 2007
    #3
  4. In message <>, impossible wrote:

    > "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <_zealand> wrote in message
    > news:f8dvs2$qs8$...
    >> In message <f8dvjt$5bb$>, Mickey Mouse wrote:
    >>
    >>> Do they individually sign an
    >>> agreement with MPEG LA allowing them to make use of patented IP to
    >>> ensure they aren't in breach?

    >>
    >> Patented under which jurisdictions?
    >>

    > Since IP is now globally protected by the WTO, it doesn't matter.


    The WTO's job is not to "protect IP" or act as some kind of global patent
    enforcer. There is no global treaty for recognizing other countries'
    patents, the way the Berne convention enforces global copyright, for
    instance--patents still have to be applied for individually in different
    jurisdictions. See section 5 of TRIPS, articles 27-34, which spell out the
    rights and reponsibilities of member states regarding patents.
     
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Jul 28, 2007
    #4
  5. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Shane Guest

    Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

    > In message <>, impossible
    > wrote:
    >
    >> "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <_zealand> wrote in message
    >> news:f8dvs2$qs8$...
    >>> In message <f8dvjt$5bb$>, Mickey Mouse wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> Do they individually sign an
    >>>> agreement with MPEG LA allowing them to make use of patented IP to
    >>>> ensure they aren't in breach?
    >>>
    >>> Patented under which jurisdictions?
    >>>

    >> Since IP is now globally protected by the WTO, it doesn't matter.

    >
    > The WTO's job is not to "protect IP" or act as some kind of global patent
    > enforcer. There is no global treaty for recognizing other countries'
    > patents, the way the Berne convention enforces global copyright, for
    > instance--patents still have to be applied for individually in different
    > jurisdictions. See section 5 of TRIPS, articles 27-34, which spell out the
    > rights and reponsibilities of member states regarding patents.


    I presume the nym you are talking to includes all the p2p downloading that
    people (running windows oddly enough) proudly boast about, in his wee IP
    crusade.

    --
    Q: What is the difference between a mathematician and a philosopher?
    A: The mathematician only needs paper, pencil, and a trash bin for his
    work - the philosopher can do without the trash bin...
     
    Shane, Jul 28, 2007
    #5
  6. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Mickey Mouse Guest

    "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <_zealand> wrote in message
    news:f8dvs2$qs8$...
    > In message <f8dvjt$5bb$>, Mickey Mouse wrote:
    >
    >> Do they individually sign an
    >> agreement with MPEG LA allowing them to make use of patented IP to ensure
    >> they aren't in breach?

    >
    > Patented under which jurisdictions?


    What jurisdictions is GPLv3 applicable to?
     
    Mickey Mouse, Jul 28, 2007
    #6
  7. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    sam Guest

    Mickey Mouse wrote:
    > Just how do Linux users legally play MPEG2 encoded data (used in DVD's)
    > without an accompanying licence to do so? Do they individually sign an
    > agreement with MPEG LA allowing them to make use of patented IP to
    > ensure they aren't in breach? And just what are the implications of
    > entering into such licensing agreements under GPLv3?
    >
    > http://www.mpegla.com/m2/


    Good question
    What is the situation if you use VLC on a Windows OS instead of Linux ?
     
    sam, Jul 28, 2007
    #7
  8. In message <f8e530$ksd$>, Mickey Mouse wrote:

    > "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <_zealand> wrote in message
    > news:f8dvs2$qs8$...
    >
    >> In message <f8dvjt$5bb$>, Mickey Mouse wrote:
    >>
    >>> Do they individually sign an
    >>> agreement with MPEG LA allowing them to make use of patented IP to
    >>> ensure they aren't in breach?

    >>
    >> Patented under which jurisdictions?

    >
    > What jurisdictions is GPLv3 applicable to?


    Wherever people agree to it. It's a licence agreement, not a law, after all.
     
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Jul 28, 2007
    #8
  9. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    impossible Guest

    "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <_zealand> wrote in message
    news:f8e3ja$297$...
    > In message <>, impossible
    > wrote:
    >
    >> "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <_zealand> wrote in message
    >> news:f8dvs2$qs8$...
    >>> In message <f8dvjt$5bb$>, Mickey Mouse wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> Do they individually sign an
    >>>> agreement with MPEG LA allowing them to make use of patented IP to
    >>>> ensure they aren't in breach?
    >>>
    >>> Patented under which jurisdictions?
    >>>

    >> Since IP is now globally protected by the WTO, it doesn't matter.

    >
    > The WTO's job is not to "protect IP" or act as some kind of global patent
    > enforcer. There is no global treaty for recognizing other countries'
    > patents, the way the Berne convention enforces global copyright, for
    > instance--patents still have to be applied for individually in different
    > jurisdictions. See section 5 of TRIPS, articles 27-34, which spell out the
    > rights and reponsibilities of member states regarding patents.


    TRIPS stipulates that member states are responsible for enforcement of IP,
    regardless of its point of nnational origin, and member states that do not
    comply face WTO sanctions. So which jurisdictions are you claiming are
    exempt from the MPEG LA?
     
    impossible, Jul 28, 2007
    #9
  10. In message <>, impossible wrote:

    >
    > "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <_zealand> wrote in message
    > news:f8e3ja$297$...
    >> In message <>, impossible
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >>> "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <_zealand> wrote in
    >>> message news:f8dvs2$qs8$...
    >>>> In message <f8dvjt$5bb$>, Mickey Mouse wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> Do they individually sign an
    >>>>> agreement with MPEG LA allowing them to make use of patented IP to
    >>>>> ensure they aren't in breach?
    >>>>
    >>>> Patented under which jurisdictions?
    >>>>
    >>> Since IP is now globally protected by the WTO, it doesn't matter.

    >>
    >> The WTO's job is not to "protect IP" or act as some kind of global patent
    >> enforcer. There is no global treaty for recognizing other countries'
    >> patents, the way the Berne convention enforces global copyright, for
    >> instance--patents still have to be applied for individually in different
    >> jurisdictions. See section 5 of TRIPS, articles 27-34, which spell out
    >> the rights and reponsibilities of member states regarding patents.

    >
    > TRIPS stipulates that member states are responsible for enforcement of IP,
    > regardless of its point of nnational origin, and member states that do not
    > comply face WTO sanctions.


    The primary job of the WTO is to ensure free trade, not enforce IP. If
    there's a conflict between the two, then free trade prevails
    <http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/05/23/antigua_wto_us_gambling/>.

    > So which jurisdictions are you claiming are exempt from the MPEG LA?


    All those in which its patents do not apply.
     
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Jul 28, 2007
    #10
  11. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Mickey Mouse Guest

    "sam" <> wrote in message news:...
    > Mickey Mouse wrote:
    >> Just how do Linux users legally play MPEG2 encoded data (used in DVD's)
    >> without an accompanying licence to do so? Do they individually sign an
    >> agreement with MPEG LA allowing them to make use of patented IP to ensure
    >> they aren't in breach? And just what are the implications of entering
    >> into such licensing agreements under GPLv3?
    >>
    >> http://www.mpegla.com/m2/

    >
    > Good question
    > What is the situation if you use VLC on a Windows OS instead of Linux ?


    Answered here:
    http://wiki.videolan.org/Frequently_Asked_Questions#What_about_personal.2Fcommercial_usage.3F

    In commercial software packages (such as the bundled Windows DVD player,
    PowerDVD etc) the producer has arranged the licence and has paid the
    associated fee, so the user does not have to be concerned with making
    special arrangements. In the case of open source software however, the
    software producer has not licensed the software, so it becomes the users
    responsibility to ensure that they arrange such a licence by contacting MPEG
    LA (the group holder of the applicable patents) if they wish to make use of
    MPEG2 encoded data (such as DVD's).
     
    Mickey Mouse, Jul 28, 2007
    #11
  12. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    peterwn Guest

    Mickey Mouse wrote:
    > "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <_zealand> wrote in
    > message news:f8dvs2$qs8$...
    >> In message <f8dvjt$5bb$>, Mickey Mouse wrote:
    >>
    >>> Do they individually sign an
    >>> agreement with MPEG LA allowing them to make use of patented IP to
    >>> ensure
    >>> they aren't in breach?

    >>
    >> Patented under which jurisdictions?

    >
    > What jurisdictions is GPLv3 applicable to?


    Any jurisdiction that recognises international copyright law. It is the
    "user" of the works who needs to wave the licence around as evidence
    that he or she is authorised to use the works. There is no such thing
    as a copyright licence being 'invalid' in one or more jurisdictions.
    Contrary to what some FUD writers say, an "invalid" or untested (in
    courts) licence does not put the associated works "out of copyright" -
    anyone who repudiates such a licence when sued for breach of copyright
    virtually confesses that they have breached copyright.

    Patents are quite different - they apply only in the jurisdictions in
    which they are issued. A USA patent is not enforceable in NZ for
    example. Moreover it seems the majority of patents (especially those
    related to software) fall over when challenged because of 'prior art',
    'obviousness' or other non compliance with patent law.
     
    peterwn, Jul 28, 2007
    #12
  13. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Peter Guest

    Mickey Mouse wrote:
    > Just how do Linux users legally play MPEG2 encoded data (used in DVD's)


    You should check when purchasing the media. That is, have a conversation
    with the merchant at point of sale, so that it is a condition of sale that
    it is ok to play the purchased material on your Linux system at home.
    You'll also need to take note of any notices, licences or conditions printed
    on the material (box, DVD, etc). There are usually notices prohibiting
    public playing of the content.

    HTH

    Peter
     
    Peter, Jul 28, 2007
    #13
  14. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    impossible Guest

    "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <_zealand> wrote in message
    news:f8e9i2$c78$...
    > In message <>, impossible
    > wrote:
    >
    >>
    >> "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <_zealand> wrote in message
    >> news:f8e3ja$297$...
    >>> In message <>, impossible
    >>> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <_zealand> wrote in
    >>>> message news:f8dvs2$qs8$...
    >>>>> In message <f8dvjt$5bb$>, Mickey Mouse wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> Do they individually sign an
    >>>>>> agreement with MPEG LA allowing them to make use of patented IP to
    >>>>>> ensure they aren't in breach?
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Patented under which jurisdictions?
    >>>>>
    >>>> Since IP is now globally protected by the WTO, it doesn't matter.
    >>>
    >>> The WTO's job is not to "protect IP" or act as some kind of global
    >>> patent
    >>> enforcer. There is no global treaty for recognizing other countries'
    >>> patents, the way the Berne convention enforces global copyright, for
    >>> instance--patents still have to be applied for individually in different
    >>> jurisdictions. See section 5 of TRIPS, articles 27-34, which spell out
    >>> the rights and reponsibilities of member states regarding patents.

    >>
    >> TRIPS stipulates that member states are responsible for enforcement of
    >> IP,
    >> regardless of its point of nnational origin, and member states that do
    >> not
    >> comply face WTO sanctions.

    >
    > The primary job of the WTO is to ensure free trade, not enforce IP. If
    > there's a conflict between the two, then free trade prevails


    There's no conflict at all. To ensure free trade in IP, the WTO requires
    memeber countires to enforce all relevant patents and coipyrights.

    > <http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/05/23/antigua_wto_us_gambling/>.
    >


    Gambling? This has what to do with IP?

    >> So which jurisdictions are you claiming are exempt from the MPEG LA?

    >
    > All those in which its patents do not apply.


    Since patents aplply in all 139 countries that are members of the WTO, your
    list will be short..
     
    impossible, Jul 28, 2007
    #14
  15. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    sam Guest

    Mickey Mouse wrote:
    > "sam" <> wrote in message news:...
    >> Mickey Mouse wrote:
    >>> Just how do Linux users legally play MPEG2 encoded data (used in
    >>> DVD's) without an accompanying licence to do so? Do they individually
    >>> sign an agreement with MPEG LA allowing them to make use of patented
    >>> IP to ensure they aren't in breach? And just what are the
    >>> implications of entering into such licensing agreements under GPLv3?
    >>>
    >>> http://www.mpegla.com/m2/

    >>
    >> Good question
    >> What is the situation if you use VLC on a Windows OS instead of Linux ?

    >
    > Answered here:
    > http://wiki.videolan.org/Frequently_Asked_Questions#What_about_personal.2Fcommercial_usage.3F
    >
    >
    > In commercial software packages (such as the bundled Windows DVD player,
    > PowerDVD etc) the producer has arranged the licence and has paid the
    > associated fee, so the user does not have to be concerned with making
    > special arrangements. In the case of open source software however, the
    > software producer has not licensed the software, so it becomes the users
    > responsibility to ensure that they arrange such a licence by contacting
    > MPEG LA (the group holder of the applicable patents) if they wish to
    > make use of MPEG2 encoded data (such as DVD's).


    So what does a TiVo user do ?
     
    sam, Jul 28, 2007
    #15
  16. In message <>, impossible wrote:

    > "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <_zealand> wrote in message
    > news:f8e9i2$c78$...
    >> In message <>, impossible
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >>>
    >>> "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <_zealand> wrote in
    >>> message news:f8e3ja$297$...
    >>>> In message <>, impossible
    >>>> wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <_zealand> wrote in
    >>>>> message news:f8dvs2$qs8$...
    >>>>>> In message <f8dvjt$5bb$>, Mickey Mouse wrote:
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>> Do they individually sign an
    >>>>>>> agreement with MPEG LA allowing them to make use of patented IP to
    >>>>>>> ensure they aren't in breach?
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Patented under which jurisdictions?
    >>>>>>
    >>>>> Since IP is now globally protected by the WTO, it doesn't matter.
    >>>>
    >>>> The WTO's job is not to "protect IP" or act as some kind of global
    >>>> patent enforcer. There is no global treaty for recognizing other
    >>>> countries' patents, the way the Berne convention enforces global
    >>>> copyright, for instance--patents still have to be applied for
    >>>> individually in different jurisdictions. See section 5 of TRIPS,
    >>>> articles 27-34, which spell out the rights and reponsibilities of
    >>>> member states regarding patents.
    >>>
    >>> TRIPS stipulates that member states are responsible for enforcement of
    >>> IP, regardless of its point of nnational origin, and member states that
    >>> do not comply face WTO sanctions.

    >>
    >> The primary job of the WTO is to ensure free trade, not enforce IP. If
    >> there's a conflict between the two, then free trade prevails
    >> <http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/05/23/antigua_wto_us_gambling/>.

    >
    > Gambling? This has what to do with IP?


    Note the remedies that Antigua has available because the US has violated its
    free trade rights--these include suspension of IP agreements. Thus, free
    trade trumps IP.

    >>> So which jurisdictions are you claiming are exempt from the MPEG LA?

    >>
    >> All those in which its patents do not apply.

    >
    > Since patents aplply in all 139 countries that are members of the WTO,
    > your list will be short..


    OK, now please come up with NZ registrations for all the patents claimed by
    MPEG-LA. I'll make it easy for you, by not asking for equivalent
    registrations for all other WTO members...
     
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Jul 28, 2007
    #16
  17. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    sam Guest

    Mickey Mouse wrote:
    > "sam" <> wrote in message news:...
    >> Mickey Mouse wrote:
    >>> Just how do Linux users legally play MPEG2 encoded data (used in
    >>> DVD's) without an accompanying licence to do so? Do they individually
    >>> sign an agreement with MPEG LA allowing them to make use of patented
    >>> IP to ensure they aren't in breach? And just what are the
    >>> implications of entering into such licensing agreements under GPLv3?
    >>>
    >>> http://www.mpegla.com/m2/

    >>
    >> Good question
    >> What is the situation if you use VLC on a Windows OS instead of Linux ?

    >
    > Answered here:
    > http://wiki.videolan.org/Frequently_Asked_Questions#What_about_personal.2Fcommercial_usage.3F
    >
    >
    > In commercial software packages (such as the bundled Windows DVD player,
    > PowerDVD etc) the producer has arranged the licence and has paid the
    > associated fee, so the user does not have to be concerned with making
    > special arrangements. In the case of open source software however, the
    > software producer has not licensed the software, so it becomes the users
    > responsibility to ensure that they arrange such a licence by contacting
    > MPEG LA (the group holder of the applicable patents) if they wish to
    > make use of MPEG2 encoded data (such as DVD's).


    So the issue isn't specific to Linux users.
    You shills from Microsoft NZ aren't above telling a few fibs when you
    are doing your anonymous trolling, are you ?
     
    sam, Jul 28, 2007
    #17
  18. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    sam Guest

    Mickey Mouse wrote:
    > "sam" <> wrote in message news:...
    >>
    >> So what does a TiVo user do ?

    >
    > I think you will find that TiVo (like Linspire) included fully licensed
    > codecs with their packages.
    >
    > TiVo is one of the targeted victims of GPLv3 as I understand.



    Are they, or are they not Linux users ?
     
    sam, Jul 28, 2007
    #18
  19. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Mickey Mouse Guest

    "Peter" <> wrote in message
    news:1185592110.218228@ftpsrv1...
    > Mickey Mouse wrote:
    >> Just how do Linux users legally play MPEG2 encoded data (used in DVD's)

    >
    > You should check when purchasing the media. That is, have a conversation
    > with the merchant at point of sale, so that it is a condition of sale that
    > it is ok to play the purchased material on your Linux system at home.
    > You'll also need to take note of any notices, licences or conditions
    > printed
    > on the material (box, DVD, etc). There are usually notices prohibiting
    > public playing of the content.


    Well, I suppose you could also ask a salesperson whether a DVD writer is a
    good quality model with a high level of compatibility, as you need one where
    the discs will work with a large cross-section of other drives and
    standalone DVD players, and make it a condition of sale that media written
    with the purchased DVD writer will work on your friends computers.

    I would be very interested to see just how far such an "agreement" with the
    retailer will get you, if the discs you are writing for distribution are
    copies of commercial DVD releases.
     
    Mickey Mouse, Jul 28, 2007
    #19
  20. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Mickey Mouse Guest

    "sam" <> wrote in message news:...
    >
    > So what does a TiVo user do ?


    I think you will find that TiVo (like Linspire) included fully licensed
    codecs with their packages.

    TiVo is one of the targeted victims of GPLv3 as I understand.
     
    Mickey Mouse, Jul 28, 2007
    #20
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