Li-ion storage advice?

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Bruce., Apr 4, 2012.

  1. Bruce.

    Bruce. Guest

    One of the things I've always loved about Lithium Ion batteries
    (compared to NiMH) is their very low self discharge rate. Put it in a
    drawer for 6 months and sill have a usable charge it it.

    Also the total lack of memory effect. You can charge/discharge them
    without regard to "harming" the cells in some way, other than normal wear.

    I've read different advice on how to store Li-ion batteries, from
    freezing to always storing filly charged. Doing a Google search these
    days seems to yield the general advice to discharge them to 40% for long
    term storage.

    And under no circumstances should they be allowed to fully discharge as
    a special protection circuit needs a bit of remaining juice or it may
    malfunction and prevent the cell from ever being charged again.

    So it was with great amazement I read this in the Canon manual for my
    new S100 camera.

    "How to store the battery for long periods: Deplete and remove the
    battery from the camera. Attach the terminal cover and store the
    battery. Storing a battery for long periods of time (about a year)
    without depleting it may shorten its life span or affect its performance."

    So what's the general advice these days? Do you agree with Canon's
    advice to store Li-ion batteries completely discharged?

    Bruce.
    Bruce., Apr 4, 2012
    #1
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  2. Bruce.

    nospam Guest

    In article <jlg30i$po8$>, Bruce. <>
    wrote:

    > One of the things I've always loved about Lithium Ion batteries
    > (compared to NiMH) is their very low self discharge rate. Put it in a
    > drawer for 6 months and sill have a usable charge it it.
    >
    > Also the total lack of memory effect. You can charge/discharge them
    > without regard to "harming" the cells in some way, other than normal wear.
    >
    > I've read different advice on how to store Li-ion batteries, from
    > freezing to always storing filly charged. Doing a Google search these
    > days seems to yield the general advice to discharge them to 40% for long
    > term storage.


    you want it somewhere in the middle. 40% is close enough. fully charged
    or fully discharged is bad for storage.

    > And under no circumstances should they be allowed to fully discharge as
    > a special protection circuit needs a bit of remaining juice or it may
    > malfunction and prevent the cell from ever being charged again.


    you can't fully discharge a lion battery. the protection circuit will
    kick in and prevent it. however, discharging it at low as it goes is
    still bad for long term storage.

    > So it was with great amazement I read this in the Canon manual for my
    > new S100 camera.
    >
    > "How to store the battery for long periods: Deplete and remove the
    > battery from the camera. Attach the terminal cover and store the
    > battery. Storing a battery for long periods of time (about a year)
    > without depleting it may shorten its life span or affect its performance."


    is it a lion battery or something else?

    > So what's the general advice these days? Do you agree with Canon's
    > advice to store Li-ion batteries completely discharged?


    if it's lion, definitely not. discharge them to 50% and put into
    storage.
    nospam, Apr 4, 2012
    #2
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  3. Bruce.

    Mort Guest

    Bruce. wrote:
    > One of the things I've always loved about Lithium Ion batteries
    > (compared to NiMH) is their very low self discharge rate. Put it in a
    > drawer for 6 months and sill have a usable charge it it.
    >
    > Also the total lack of memory effect. You can charge/discharge them
    > without regard to "harming" the cells in some way, other than normal wear.
    >
    > I've read different advice on how to store Li-ion batteries, from
    > freezing to always storing filly charged. Doing a Google search these
    > days seems to yield the general advice to discharge them to 40% for long
    > term storage.
    >
    > And under no circumstances should they be allowed to fully discharge as
    > a special protection circuit needs a bit of remaining juice or it may
    > malfunction and prevent the cell from ever being charged again.
    >
    > So it was with great amazement I read this in the Canon manual for my
    > new S100 camera.
    >
    > "How to store the battery for long periods: Deplete and remove the
    > battery from the camera. Attach the terminal cover and store the
    > battery. Storing a battery for long periods of time (about a year)
    > without depleting it may shorten its life span or affect its performance."
    >
    > So what's the general advice these days? Do you agree with Canon's
    > advice to store Li-ion batteries completely discharged?
    >
    > Bruce.


    I too have a Canon S-100, which I like very much. Have you ever thought
    of posing your question to Canon's Tech Support people? In addition to a
    reply that might possibly be helpful, you can print out their e-mail
    response and keep it with your owner's manual, in case a problem with
    the battery arises. A piece of paper might be more useful than a
    telephone conversation.

    Regards,

    Mort Linder
    Mort, Apr 4, 2012
    #3
  4. Bruce.

    Whisky-dave Guest

    On Apr 4, 6:28 am, Mxsmanic <> wrote:
    > Bruce. writes:
    > > So what's the general advice these days?  Do you agree with Canon's
    > > advice to store Li-ion batteries completely discharged?

    >
    > No. The advice I've seen is that they should be about half charged.


    http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_store_batteries

    "While lead acid must always be kept at full charge during storage,
    nickel- and lithium-based chemistries should be stored at around a 40
    percent state-of-charge (SoC). This level minimizes age-related
    capacity loss while keeping the battery in operating condition and
    allowing self-discharge."


    >
    > I keep them fully charged, so that they are ready to use,


    A valid point, in that is it better to have the bateries ready for
    real use or to extend their life ?
    for the average user it might be best to keep them charged as much as
    possible but if seliing them
    then I guess it's better at 40%.

    There's also a range of li-ion
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_battery#Chemistries

    be interesting to know which ones are used buy which manufactures/
    companies
    Which might also explain co0me price differnies between them.

    > and rotate through
    > them so that they all get cycled periodically. I usually charge a batteryas
    > soon as I'm done shooting for the day, and I rarely run batteries all theway
    > down (mainly because I use higher-capacity batteries when I can).
    Whisky-dave, Apr 4, 2012
    #4
  5. Bruce.

    Bruce. Guest

    On 4/3/2012 7:07 PM, nospam wrote:
    > is it a lion battery or something else?


    Yes, Canon NB-5L Li-Ion Batteries.

    Bruce.
    Bruce., Apr 4, 2012
    #5
  6. Bruce.

    Bruce. Guest

    On 4/3/2012 7:20 PM, Mort wrote:
    > I too have a Canon S-100, which I like very much. Have you ever thought
    > of posing your question to Canon's Tech Support people? In addition to a
    > reply that might possibly be helpful, you can print out their e-mail
    > response and keep it with your owner's manual, in case a problem with
    > the battery arises. A piece of paper might be more useful than a
    > telephone conversation.


    Good idea! I didn't know they had email support which I just found. I
    have sent them the same question and will post the reply. I don't
    expect them to contradict their camera manual but the reply might be
    enlightening in some way.

    Bruce.
    Bruce., Apr 4, 2012
    #6
  7. Bruce.

    Bruce. Guest

    On 4/3/2012 7:07 PM, nospam wrote:
    > you can't fully discharge a lion battery. the protection circuit will
    > kick in and prevent it. however, discharging it at low as it goes is
    > still bad for long term storage.


    From what I read, which may be dated and no longer accurate, that while
    the circuit prevents a short term full discharge, if the battery is
    fully discharged and then allowed to sit in that state for a long time,
    the unavoidable self-discharge rate will continue to deplete the battery
    below what is needed for the circuit to work, although that may take
    many months longer, making it impossible for most battery chargers to
    recharge it.

    They also mentioned that there are special chargers available that can
    recharge such "dead" batteries despite the non-functional protection circuit

    Bruce.
    Bruce., Apr 4, 2012
    #7
  8. Bruce.

    Bruce. Guest

    On 4/4/2012 9:13 AM, Bruce. wrote:
    > Good idea! I didn't know they had email support which I just found. I
    > have sent them the same question and will post the reply. I don't expect
    > them to contradict their camera manual but the reply might be
    > enlightening in some way.


    Well, not too surprisingly, the basically restated what the manual says.
    They do get high marks for a very fast reply though! Here is the reply:

    "To store the battery pack it is recommended that you deplete the power
    and remove the battery from the camera. Attach the terminal cover (or
    place the battery pack in a zip lock style bag) and store the battery.
    Storing it for a long period of time without depleting it may shorten
    its life span or affect its performance. If you do not use the battery
    for long periods of time, charge it fully and discharge it fully in the
    camera about once a year before returning it to storage."

    To the advice in the manual, they added the requirement that the battery
    in storage be fully charged and then fully discharged about once a year.

    So Canon seems to disagree with the general Li-ion advice I've read
    elsewhere.

    Bruce.
    Bruce., Apr 4, 2012
    #8
  9. "Bruce." <> writes:

    > So it was with great amazement I read this in the Canon manual for my
    > new S100 camera.
    >
    > "How to store the battery for long periods: Deplete and remove the
    > battery from the camera. Attach the terminal cover and store the
    > battery. Storing a battery for long periods of time (about a year)
    > without depleting it may shorten its life span or affect its
    > performance."
    >
    > So what's the general advice these days? Do you agree with Canon's
    > advice to store Li-ion batteries completely discharged?


    It may not be the same for all Li-ion batteries, either. Either the
    underlying battery tech, or the layer of management circuitry on top,
    may be different, causing different recommended storage procedures.

    I'd need pretty strong reasons to ignore specific instructions for my
    exact battery.
    --
    David Dyer-Bennet, ; http://dd-b.net/
    Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/
    Photos: http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery/
    Dragaera: http://dragaera.info
    David Dyer-Bennet, Apr 4, 2012
    #9
  10. Bruce.

    charles Guest

    On Wed, 04 Apr 2012 09:33:40 -0500, "Bruce." <>
    wrote:

    >On 4/4/2012 9:13 AM, Bruce. wrote:
    >> Good idea! I didn't know they had email support which I just found. I
    >> have sent them the same question and will post the reply. I don't expect
    >> them to contradict their camera manual but the reply might be
    >> enlightening in some way.

    >
    >Well, not too surprisingly, the basically restated what the manual says.
    > They do get high marks for a very fast reply though! Here is the reply:
    >
    >"To store the battery pack it is recommended that you deplete the power
    >and remove the battery from the camera. Attach the terminal cover (or
    >place the battery pack in a zip lock style bag) and store the battery.
    >Storing it for a long period of time without depleting it may shorten
    >its life span or affect its performance. If you do not use the battery
    >for long periods of time, charge it fully and discharge it fully in the
    >camera about once a year before returning it to storage."
    >
    >To the advice in the manual, they added the requirement that the battery
    >in storage be fully charged and then fully discharged about once a year.
    >
    >So Canon seems to disagree with the general Li-ion advice I've read
    >elsewhere.
    >
    >Bruce.



    I wonder if they (Canon) are thinking that the camera will only
    discharge the battery to a certain point, not fully discharge it as
    would a flashlight.
    charles, Apr 4, 2012
    #10
  11. Bruce.

    Bruce. Guest

    On 4/4/2012 2:01 PM, charles wrote:
    > I wonder if they (Canon) are thinking that the camera will only
    > discharge the battery to a certain point, not fully discharge it as
    > would a flashlight.


    Possible. Another thing the manual says it the camera's current
    date/time will only last about 3 weeks if the Li-ion battery is removed.
    After that the date/time will need to me manually set again next time
    it's powered up.

    That implies that so long as the battery is installed the camera is
    drawing some current to keep the date/time updated. But since my
    current watch battery lasts 10 years, I'd guess the current needed is
    extremely small.

    Bruce.
    Bruce., Apr 4, 2012
    #11
  12. "Mxsmanic" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Whisky-dave writes:
    >
    >> A valid point, in that is it better to have the bateries ready for
    >> real use or to extend their life ?

    >
    > I vote for fully charged, because there's not much point in buying a
    > battery
    > of capacity x if you're only going to keep it charged to x/2. They are
    > not
    > that expensive, and they don't die that quickly.


    It's one of several cases where what you do operationally - having your
    batteries fully charged every night, for example - may not be optimal for
    battery life, but does ensure you get the photos the next day!

    Cheers,
    David
    David J Taylor, Apr 5, 2012
    #12
  13. Bruce.

    DanP Guest

    On Wednesday, 4 April 2012 01:01:22 UTC+1, Bruce. wrote:
    > One of the things I've always loved about Lithium Ion batteries
    > (compared to NiMH) is their very low self discharge rate. Put it in a
    > drawer for 6 months and sill have a usable charge it it.
    >
    > Also the total lack of memory effect. You can charge/discharge them
    > without regard to "harming" the cells in some way, other than normal wear..
    >
    > I've read different advice on how to store Li-ion batteries, from
    > freezing to always storing filly charged. Doing a Google search these
    > days seems to yield the general advice to discharge them to 40% for long
    > term storage.
    >
    > And under no circumstances should they be allowed to fully discharge as
    > a special protection circuit needs a bit of remaining juice or it may
    > malfunction and prevent the cell from ever being charged again.
    >
    > So it was with great amazement I read this in the Canon manual for my
    > new S100 camera.
    >
    > "How to store the battery for long periods: Deplete and remove the
    > battery from the camera. Attach the terminal cover and store the
    > battery. Storing a battery for long periods of time (about a year)
    > without depleting it may shorten its life span or affect its performance."
    >
    > So what's the general advice these days? Do you agree with Canon's
    > advice to store Li-ion batteries completely discharged?
    >
    > Bruce.


    I had the surprise to have use an mobile phone stored for over one year andsee the battery half charged. Another experience was with a notebook, could not charge it, battery was well depleted, then it would not be charged again. Eventually after leaving it on charge for a few days the battery was charged again.

    I'd say ignore Canon's advice and keep the battery half charged. BTW, the camera has a small internal battery so it can keep time/settings when you take the main battery out.


    DanP
    DanP, Apr 5, 2012
    #13
  14. Bruce.

    Bruce. Guest

    On 4/5/2012 4:10 AM, DanP wrote:
    > I had the surprise to have use an mobile phone stored for over one year and see the battery half charged. Another experience was with a notebook, could not charge it, battery was well depleted, then it would not be charged again. Eventually after leaving it on charge for a few days the battery was charged again.
    >
    > I'd say ignore Canon's advice and keep the battery half charged. BTW, the camera has a small internal battery so it can keep time/settings when you take the main battery out.


    Thanks for your thoughts Dan.

    Another point is cost. My first spare Canon NB-5L battery from B&H
    Photo Video cost me $43. At that price how I store them seems important.

    But I have since found aftermarket NB-5L batteries for as little as $14
    each. I got a couple of those and in informal testing, they seem to
    hold as much charge as the Canon ones do.

    At $14 each, suddenly how I store them seems less important. I'd rather
    keep fully charged batteries on hand even if I have to buy replacements
    slightly more often.

    Battery cost can me a big issue for the Canon S100. They packed a bunch
    of high end features in a shirt pocket camera that severely limits the
    size of the battery they can use. As a result, it's good for about 200
    shots, or 40 minutes of HD video, or some limited combination of the
    two. I plan to keep at least 2 spare batteries on hand at all times.

    Bruce.
    Bruce., Apr 6, 2012
    #14
  15. Bruce.

    GMAN Guest

    In article <jllh4k$bdn$>, "Bruce." <> wrote:
    >On 4/5/2012 4:10 AM, DanP wrote:
    >> I had the surprise to have use an mobile phone stored for over one year and

    > see the battery half charged. Another experience was with a notebook, could
    > not charge it, battery was well depleted, then it would not be charged again.
    > Eventually after leaving it on charge for a few days the battery was charged
    > again.
    >>
    >> I'd say ignore Canon's advice and keep the battery half charged. BTW, the

    > camera has a small internal battery so it can keep time/settings when you take
    > the main battery out.
    >
    >Thanks for your thoughts Dan.
    >
    >Another point is cost. My first spare Canon NB-5L battery from B&H
    >Photo Video cost me $43. At that price how I store them seems important.
    >



    B&H are seriously screwing you at that price!


    >At $14 each, suddenly how I store them seems less important. I'd rather
    >keep fully charged batteries on hand even if I have to buy replacements
    >slightly more often.
    >
    >Battery cost can me a big issue for the Canon S100. They packed a bunch
    >of high end features in a shirt pocket camera that severely limits the
    >size of the battery they can use. As a result, it's good for about 200
    >shots, or 40 minutes of HD video, or some limited combination of the
    >two. I plan to keep at least 2 spare batteries on hand at all times.
    >
    >Bruce.
    GMAN, Apr 6, 2012
    #15
  16. Bruce.

    Bruce. Guest

    On 4/6/2012 12:43 PM, GMAN wrote:
    > In article<jllh4k$bdn$>, "Bruce."<> wrote:
    >> Another point is cost. My first spare Canon NB-5L battery from B&H
    >> Photo Video cost me $43. At that price how I store them seems important.
    >>

    >
    >
    > B&H are seriously screwing you at that price!


    Amazon wants $45.87 for the original Canon model. When I was buying the
    camera I was nervous about trying aftermarket batteries, so I bought 1
    of the Canon for my spare.

    Since then I've bought several of the $14 and they seem to compare very
    nicely to the Canon ones.

    One interesting one is here:

    http://www.amazon.com/STKs-Canon-NB-5L-NB5L-Battery/dp/B000NK5Z8Y/ref=pd_cp_p_0

    I've seen this battery on several web sites and the text description
    always lists them as 1400 mAH. However, if you look closely at the
    battery, the label says 1600 mAH. I have a couple of them now and they
    do indeed say 1600 mAH. I don't have the test equipment I'd need to
    tell if they're significantly better than the Canon ones but based on HD
    recording time, I can say they seem at least as good as the 1120 mAH Canons.

    Bruce.
    Bruce., Apr 6, 2012
    #16
  17. Bruce.

    Bruce. Guest

    On 4/6/2012 3:21 PM, Savageduck wrote:
    > B&H currently lists the Canon NB-5L 1129mAh at $42.40, and a Pearstone
    > generic NB-5L 875mAh at $19.95. So it is not really a case of comparing
    > apples with apples.
    >
    > Amazon lists a 1400mAh generic at $14.99.


    When I bought my Canon S100, I ordered an extra battery because all of
    the reviews said it was battery hungry. The Canon NB-5L battery was a
    seemingly ridiculous $49. Ouch. The standard Canon battery was rated
    at 1120 mAh.

    So it was with great joy that I found much cheaper aftermarket batteries
    with an even higher mAh. There was a variety of them out there, 1120s,
    1200s, 1400, and 1600. Prices were as cheap as $10 each.

    Well to summarize a bunch of money and time later, you get what you pay
    for. I used the S100 HD video record function to see how long each
    battery lasted, with 2 batteries of each kind to test.

    The 1600s were weird. The advertisement text says 1400, but the
    pictures clearly showed them stamped as 1600. I got a couple of those
    1400s and sure enough, they're stamped as 1600.

    Anyway, here is the results of my HD record test from fully charged to
    camera shutdown. Identical environment for each run.

    Rosewill 1, 1400 mAh, $10, 50.18 minutes
    Rosewill 2, 1400 mAh, $10, 52:23 minutes
    Powwer 1, 1400 labeled 1600, $14, 48:14 Minutes
    Powwer 2, 1400 labeled 1600, $14, 46:07 minutes
    NoName 1, 1400, $15, 42:16 Minutes
    NoName 2, 1400, $15, 42:48 Minutes
    Canon 1, 1120, $49, 1:07:42 Minutes
    Canon 2, 1120, $49, 1:06:54 Minutes

    Either Canon doesn't know how to properly rate mAh, or everyone else is
    flat lying. Most of these substitute batteries were in the price range
    of $14 to $19 each. A dramatic savings, but not much consolation if the
    battery goes dead in the middle of something important.

    What makes it worse is the low battery indicator on the camera is very
    misleading and can't be trusted. It starts flashing at anywhere from
    30% to 50% used, so you have a boat load of time left after it starts
    flashing. Perhaps it's more reliable in picture taking than video
    taking. You basically have to run it dry to be sure you've used it all.

    I wouldn't care if the batteries lasted a week, but combining the 3rd
    party battery capacity with the camera's premature battery low
    indicator, and you'll be swapping batteries every 20 minutes. Who can
    carry or keep that many batteries charged and ready?

    Then again, who would have expected a battery rated higher mAh to
    perform this much worse?

    If you didn't mind losing about 20 minute per battery, the Rosewill
    (Newegg) batteries are the best deal. For me I bit the bullet and
    ordered some Canons for $43 each.

    Bruce.
    Bruce., Apr 12, 2012
    #17
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