Leica M8 review on Luminous-Landscape

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Kinon O'Cann, Oct 30, 2006.

  1. David J Taylor wrote:
    > David J. Littleboy wrote:
    > []
    >> BS again. Looking at page after page of grainy grit gets old quick.
    >> The grain detracts from the images, not enhances them.

    >
    > Whatever works for you - I do not think that technical excellence or
    > complete freedom from grain is essential for an image to be worth looking
    > at, or for me to enjoy.


    Without too much stretching, it seems as though you and the other David
    J might actually be more in agreement than otherwise.

    But I was wrong once before on this NG....


    <s.>

    --
    john mcwilliams
    John McWilliams, Nov 1, 2006
    #41
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  2. John McWilliams wrote:
    > David J Taylor wrote:
    >> David J. Littleboy wrote:
    >> []
    >>> BS again. Looking at page after page of grainy grit gets old quick.
    >>> The grain detracts from the images, not enhances them.

    >>
    >> Whatever works for you - I do not think that technical excellence or
    >> complete freedom from grain is essential for an image to be worth
    >> looking at, or for me to enjoy.

    >
    > Without too much stretching, it seems as though you and the other
    > David J might actually be more in agreement than otherwise.
    >
    > But I was wrong once before on this NG....
    >
    >
    > <s.>


    Oh, quite possibly! I just don't mind a little noise in an image, and
    feel there are times when grain or noise can positively enhance the
    character of an image. Like David, I probably wouldn't want to look at
    page after page of such images, nor would I expect significant grain in
    "daylight" condition images....

    David
    David J Taylor, Nov 1, 2006
    #42
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  3. Kinon O'Cann

    Annika1980 Guest

    Kinon O'Cann wrote:
    > Reichman's review is up, and if you wish to believe him, Leica has hit a
    > home run with this one.
    >
    > www.luminous-landscape.com


    That review makes me want to go out and buy a new camera ... a Canon 5D.
    Annika1980, Nov 1, 2006
    #43
  4. Kinon O'Cann

    frederick Guest

    Barry Pearson wrote:
    <snip>
    >
    > The Nikon D70 (and perhaps other Nikons?) is claimed to have a lossy,
    > but "visually lossless", compression of raw data before storage. This
    > was apparently to achieve smaller raw files. I assume the M8 has it for
    > the same reason. It enables the raw file for a 10 MP camera to be 10 MB
    > without any other compression, and if it is run through the DNG
    > Converter to (losslessly) compress it, that typically reduces to 7 MB
    > or less. (And the D70 had a weaker than normal anti-alias filter).
    >


    Have you seen examples comparing lossy with lossless raw format on a
    camera that has both options?
    That I haven't seen any posted on the internet perhaps indicates that
    there's nothing to see? Perhaps I haven't looked hard enough.
    frederick, Nov 1, 2006
    #44
  5. Kinon O'Cann

    frederick Guest

    Annika1980 wrote:
    > Kinon O'Cann wrote:
    >> Reichman's review is up, and if you wish to believe him, Leica has hit a
    >> home run with this one.
    >>
    >> www.luminous-landscape.com

    >
    > That review makes me want to go out and buy a new camera ... a Canon 5D.
    >

    If you fit some Shakti stones to the M8, then you will clearly see the
    je ne sais quoi intangible qualities that Leica offers.
    Shakti stones have many more published favourable reviews than the M8
    itself.
    http://www.shakti-innovations.com/audiovideo.htm
    The patented Noise Reduction Technology should be exactly and perfectly
    as effective on digital cameras as it is for audio applications.
    Then again, if they work for the M8, they'll also work for the 5d.
    frederick, Nov 1, 2006
    #45
  6. Kinon O'Cann

    Scott W Guest

    frederick wrote:
    > Annika1980 wrote:
    > > Kinon O'Cann wrote:
    > >> Reichman's review is up, and if you wish to believe him, Leica has hit a
    > >> home run with this one.
    > >>
    > >> www.luminous-landscape.com

    > >
    > > That review makes me want to go out and buy a new camera ... a Canon 5D.
    > >

    > If you fit some Shakti stones to the M8, then you will clearly see the
    > je ne sais quoi intangible qualities that Leica offers.
    > Shakti stones have many more published favourable reviews than the M8
    > itself.
    > http://www.shakti-innovations.com/audiovideo.htm
    > The patented Noise Reduction Technology should be exactly and perfectly
    > as effective on digital cameras as it is for audio applications.
    > Then again, if they work for the M8, they'll also work for the 5d.


    That is too funny. When we use to do EMI testing of new products we
    always had a big box of ferrites, which is what I am sure that stone
    it. Sure it reduces EMI but you can get the same thing for a fraction
    the cost at many places. The idea of just placing the ferrite near the
    device in question is pretty funny as well. Mostly they don't do a
    thing to improve performance, more to keep a device from radiating too
    much EMI.

    Scott
    Scott W, Nov 1, 2006
    #46
  7. On Nov 1, 8:08 pm, frederick <> wrote:
    [snip]
    > Have you seen examples comparing lossy with lossless raw format on a
    > camera that has both options?
    > That I haven't seen any posted on the internet perhaps indicates that
    > there's nothing to see? Perhaps I haven't looked hard enough.


    Good point. No. I've seen lots of largish prints from people with D70s,
    and haven't identified an issue.

    Since I started using a digital camera, I've only shot raw. But it
    isn't because I have been obsessed with every last bit! It is largely
    because it is the simplest and most flexible way for me to take photos.

    --
    Barry Pearson
    http://www.barry.pearson.name/photography/
    Barry Pearson, Nov 1, 2006
    #47
  8. Kinon O'Cann

    frederick Guest

    Scott W wrote:
    > frederick wrote:
    >> Annika1980 wrote:
    >>> Kinon O'Cann wrote:
    >>>> Reichman's review is up, and if you wish to believe him, Leica has hit a
    >>>> home run with this one.
    >>>>
    >>>> www.luminous-landscape.com
    >>> That review makes me want to go out and buy a new camera ... a Canon 5D.
    >>>

    >> If you fit some Shakti stones to the M8, then you will clearly see the
    >> je ne sais quoi intangible qualities that Leica offers.
    >> Shakti stones have many more published favourable reviews than the M8
    >> itself.
    >> http://www.shakti-innovations.com/audiovideo.htm
    >> The patented Noise Reduction Technology should be exactly and perfectly
    >> as effective on digital cameras as it is for audio applications.
    >> Then again, if they work for the M8, they'll also work for the 5d.

    >
    > That is too funny. When we use to do EMI testing of new products we
    > always had a big box of ferrites, which is what I am sure that stone
    > it. Sure it reduces EMI but you can get the same thing for a fraction
    > the cost at many places. The idea of just placing the ferrite near the
    > device in question is pretty funny as well. Mostly they don't do a
    > thing to improve performance, more to keep a device from radiating too
    > much EMI.
    >
    > Scott
    >

    Oh you cynic!
    Just like the M8, Shakti Stones have reviewers singing their praises.
    The Leica M8 and Shakti stones are targeting exactly the same
    econo-intellectual demographic. Shakti and Leica should work together.
    frederick, Nov 1, 2006
    #48
  9. Kinon O'Cann

    Scott W Guest

    frederick wrote:
    > Oh you cynic!
    > Just like the M8, Shakti Stones have reviewers singing their praises.
    > The Leica M8 and Shakti stones are targeting exactly the same
    > econo-intellectual demographic. Shakti and Leica should work together.


    I can't argue with that :)

    scott
    Scott W, Nov 1, 2006
    #49
  10. Kinon O'Cann

    acl Guest

    frederick wrote:
    > Have you seen examples comparing lossy with lossless raw format on a
    > camera that has both options?
    > That I haven't seen any posted on the internet perhaps indicates that
    > there's nothing to see? Perhaps I haven't looked hard enough.


    http://regex.info/blog/photo-tech/nef-compression/
    acl, Nov 1, 2006
    #50
  11. Kinon O'Cann

    frederick Guest

    acl wrote:
    > frederick wrote:
    >> Have you seen examples comparing lossy with lossless raw format on a
    >> camera that has both options?
    >> That I haven't seen any posted on the internet perhaps indicates that
    >> there's nothing to see? Perhaps I haven't looked hard enough.

    >
    > http://regex.info/blog/photo-tech/nef-compression/
    >

    Very cool - thank you.
    Well, I am using a high-end diamondtron monitor, and closed the blinds
    in my office, double-checked gamma setting, and did some eye-exercises
    in preparation. I looked very very closely at the sample images full
    scene and 100% crops. Those observations have made one thing very clear
    to me. If I upgrade my D70 and decide on a D200 rather than a D80, then
    availability of uncompressed raw with the D200 is of academic interest
    only - as it shows incredibly small or no practical benefit at all.
    I know that if I struggle to see any difference in 100% crop on screen,
    then I'm going to see nothing at all in a print.
    frederick, Nov 1, 2006
    #51
  12. Kinon O'Cann

    Rich Guest

    David J Taylor wrote:
    > John McWilliams wrote:
    > > David J Taylor wrote:
    > >> David J. Littleboy wrote:
    > >> []
    > >>> BS again. Looking at page after page of grainy grit gets old quick.
    > >>> The grain detracts from the images, not enhances them.
    > >>
    > >> Whatever works for you - I do not think that technical excellence or
    > >> complete freedom from grain is essential for an image to be worth
    > >> looking at, or for me to enjoy.

    > >
    > > Without too much stretching, it seems as though you and the other
    > > David J might actually be more in agreement than otherwise.
    > >
    > > But I was wrong once before on this NG....
    > >
    > >
    > > <s.>

    >
    > Oh, quite possibly! I just don't mind a little noise in an image, and
    > feel there are times when grain or noise can positively enhance the
    > character of an image. Like David, I probably wouldn't want to look at
    > page after page of such images, nor would I expect significant grain in
    > "daylight" condition images....
    >
    > David


    Daylight doesn't effect noise, exposure does. If you shoot a scene in
    daylight, and some parts are in deep shadow and you expose them -5 or
    -6 stops under, you're going to see the same noise as a night image
    exposed in the same way.
    Rich, Nov 2, 2006
    #52
  13. Kinon O'Cann

    acl Guest

    frederick wrote:
    > acl wrote:
    > > frederick wrote:
    > >> Have you seen examples comparing lossy with lossless raw format on a
    > >> camera that has both options?
    > >> That I haven't seen any posted on the internet perhaps indicates that
    > >> there's nothing to see? Perhaps I haven't looked hard enough.

    > >
    > > http://regex.info/blog/photo-tech/nef-compression/
    > >

    > Very cool - thank you.
    > Well, I am using a high-end diamondtron monitor, and closed the blinds
    > in my office, double-checked gamma setting, and did some eye-exercises
    > in preparation. I looked very very closely at the sample images full
    > scene and 100% crops. Those observations have made one thing very clear
    > to me. If I upgrade my D70 and decide on a D200 rather than a D80, then
    > availability of uncompressed raw with the D200 is of academic interest
    > only - as it shows incredibly small or no practical benefit at all.
    > I know that if I struggle to see any difference in 100% crop on screen,
    > then I'm going to see nothing at all in a print.


    Yes. I also did some experiments involving taking two versions of the
    same raw file, one compressed and one not, and doing acrobatics in
    various raw converters and photoshop. Even knowing what I had to do to
    see the difference I couldn't; so I switched to compressed raw.
    acl, Nov 2, 2006
    #53
  14. Kinon O'Cann

    frederick Guest

    acl wrote:
    > frederick wrote:
    >> acl wrote:
    >>> frederick wrote:
    >>>> Have you seen examples comparing lossy with lossless raw format on a
    >>>> camera that has both options?
    >>>> That I haven't seen any posted on the internet perhaps indicates that
    >>>> there's nothing to see? Perhaps I haven't looked hard enough.
    >>> http://regex.info/blog/photo-tech/nef-compression/
    >>>

    >> Very cool - thank you.
    >> Well, I am using a high-end diamondtron monitor, and closed the blinds
    >> in my office, double-checked gamma setting, and did some eye-exercises
    >> in preparation. I looked very very closely at the sample images full
    >> scene and 100% crops. Those observations have made one thing very clear
    >> to me. If I upgrade my D70 and decide on a D200 rather than a D80, then
    >> availability of uncompressed raw with the D200 is of academic interest
    >> only - as it shows incredibly small or no practical benefit at all.
    >> I know that if I struggle to see any difference in 100% crop on screen,
    >> then I'm going to see nothing at all in a print.

    >
    > Yes. I also did some experiments involving taking two versions of the
    > same raw file, one compressed and one not, and doing acrobatics in
    > various raw converters and photoshop. Even knowing what I had to do to
    > see the difference I couldn't; so I switched to compressed raw.
    >


    It is good to know that. Sometimes you read/hear criticism of
    compressed raw - yet have no counter-argument apart from detailed
    technical analysis which could (and it seems sometimes does) lead to an
    incorrect - or at best wildly exaggerated - conclusion.
    frederick, Nov 2, 2006
    #54
  15. Kinon O'Cann

    Annika1980 Guest

    frederick wrote:
    > If you fit some Shakti stones to the M8, then you will clearly see the
    > je ne sais quoi intangible qualities that Leica offers.


    Just don't forget to wash them in the Seismic Sink.

    Surely you aren't suggesting that the fine folks at Leica use snake oil
    on their salads?
    Annika1980, Nov 2, 2006
    #55
  16. Kinon O'Cann

    frederick Guest

    Annika1980 wrote:
    > frederick wrote:
    >> If you fit some Shakti stones to the M8, then you will clearly see the
    >> je ne sais quoi intangible qualities that Leica offers.

    >
    > Just don't forget to wash them in the Seismic Sink.
    >
    > Surely you aren't suggesting that the fine folks at Leica use snake oil
    > on their salads?
    >

    Wow - hadn't seen a seismic sink, fantastic stuff.
    Do they make one to fit an iPod?
    frederick, Nov 2, 2006
    #56
  17. Kinon O'Cann

    Scott W Guest

    Annika1980 wrote:
    > frederick wrote:
    > > If you fit some Shakti stones to the M8, then you will clearly see the
    > > je ne sais quoi intangible qualities that Leica offers.

    >
    > Just don't forget to wash them in the Seismic Sink.

    Hey, we are still a bit jumpy about any thing seismic around here.

    Scott
    Scott W, Nov 2, 2006
    #57
  18. "Scott W" <> wrote:
    > Annika1980 wrote:
    >> frederick wrote:
    >> > If you fit some Shakti stones to the M8, then you will clearly see the
    >> > je ne sais quoi intangible qualities that Leica offers.

    >>
    >> Just don't forget to wash them in the Seismic Sink.

    > Hey, we are still a bit jumpy about any thing seismic around here.


    Welcome to my world...

    David J. Littleboy
    Tokyo, Japan
    David J. Littleboy, Nov 2, 2006
    #58
  19. Kinon O'Cann

    frederick Guest

    David J. Littleboy wrote:
    > "Scott W" <> wrote:
    >> Annika1980 wrote:
    >>> frederick wrote:
    >>>> If you fit some Shakti stones to the M8, then you will clearly see the
    >>>> je ne sais quoi intangible qualities that Leica offers.
    >>> Just don't forget to wash them in the Seismic Sink.

    >> Hey, we are still a bit jumpy about any thing seismic around here.

    >
    > Welcome to my world...
    >

    And greetings back from the shaky isles.
    http://www.geonet.org.nz/
    Always waiting for the big one...
    frederick, Nov 2, 2006
    #59
  20. Rich wrote:
    > David J Taylor wrote:

    []
    >> Oh, quite possibly! I just don't mind a little noise in an image,
    >> and feel there are times when grain or noise can positively enhance
    >> the character of an image. Like David, I probably wouldn't want to
    >> look at page after page of such images, nor would I expect
    >> significant grain in "daylight" condition images....
    >>
    >> David

    >
    > Daylight doesn't effect noise, exposure does. If you shoot a scene in
    > daylight, and some parts are in deep shadow and you expose them -5 or
    > -6 stops under, you're going to see the same noise as a night image
    > exposed in the same way.


    I was drawing the comparison between when I would find image noise
    acceptable or not, not when or how the noise was generated.

    David
    David J Taylor, Nov 2, 2006
    #60
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