Lawyers and camera user manuals.

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by John, Nov 6, 2006.

  1. John

    John Guest

    These excerpts are from two different pages of the same camera user's manual.

    "Once an image is erased, it cannot be recovered. Make sure that you no
    longer need the image before erasing it."

    "Formatting a CF card will erase everything on the card. Even protected
    images will be erased."

    "When the card is formatted, only the file management information is changed.
    The actual data is not completely erased. Keep this in mind when giving the
    card to another person or discarding it."

    "When discarding the card, destroy the card physically to prevent the data
    from being stolen."


    Using this twisted logic:

    If I erase images, I cannot be recover them. However, if I discard the card
    someone else can recover the data (but I can't). Therefore, if I want to
    recover the data I need to give/sell/dispose of the card so that the next
    person who takes possession of the card can recover the data.

    Can you imagine destroying $800 16GB Sandisk CF cards when you no longer need
    them since the *next* person can recover the data? Naturally, there's no
    technology on the face of the earth that can wipe a disk or simply filling
    the disk with junk to overwrite any previously erased images.
     
    John, Nov 6, 2006
    #1
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  2. John wrote:
    > These excerpts are from two different pages of the same camera user's
    > manual.
    > "Once an image is erased, it cannot be recovered. Make sure that you
    > no longer need the image before erasing it."
    >
    > "Formatting a CF card will erase everything on the card. Even
    > protected images will be erased."
    >
    > "When the card is formatted, only the file management information is
    > changed. The actual data is not completely erased. Keep this in mind
    > when giving the card to another person or discarding it."
    >
    > "When discarding the card, destroy the card physically to prevent the
    > data from being stolen."
    >
    >
    > Using this twisted logic:
    >
    > If I erase images, I cannot be recover them. However, if I discard
    > the card someone else can recover the data (but I can't). Therefore,
    > if I want to recover the data I need to give/sell/dispose of the card
    > so that the next person who takes possession of the card can recover
    > the data.
    > Can you imagine destroying $800 16GB Sandisk CF cards when you no
    > longer need them since the *next* person can recover the data? Naturally,
    > there's no technology on the face of the earth that can
    > wipe a disk or simply filling the disk with junk to overwrite any
    > previously erased images.



    I believe that is your put those statements in context, and I believe
    most people will, there is no problem. For most users it is not possible to
    get images back from a deleted file. However it is possible for someone
    with a real interest to do so. If someone is really concerned about data on
    a disk, the only solution I would trust is physical destruction.

    --
    Joseph Meehan

    Dia 's Muire duit
     
    Joseph Meehan, Nov 6, 2006
    #2
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  3. John

    acl Guest

    Joseph Meehan wrote:
    > I believe that is your put those statements in context, and I believe
    > most people will, there is no problem. For most users it is not possible to
    > get images back from a deleted file. However it is possible for someone
    > with a real interest to do so. If someone is really concerned about data on
    > a disk, the only solution I would trust is physical destruction.
    >


    You're probably right about context-in this case. But in my D200's
    manual, it says that care must be exercised when operating the diopter
    control (next to the eyepiece) in order to avoid inserting one's
    fingernails into one's eye. I challenge you to find a context in which
    this is a reasonable warning!
     
    acl, Nov 6, 2006
    #3
  4. John

    Phil Wheeler Guest

    John wrote:
    >
    > Can you imagine destroying $800 16GB Sandisk CF cards when you no longer
    > need them since the *next* person can recover the data?


    No ... since I cannot imagine owning an $800 CF card.

    BTW .. which lawyer are you speaking of?

    Phil
     
    Phil Wheeler, Nov 6, 2006
    #4
  5. John

    Jim Townsend Guest

    John wrote:


    > Can you imagine destroying $800 16GB Sandisk CF cards when you no longer need
    > them since the *next* person can recover the data?


    I doubt many will be destroyed. They'll wind up being sold in the not too
    distant future at computer flea markets for $5 - $10 dollars each ;-)
     
    Jim Townsend, Nov 6, 2006
    #5
  6. John

    George K Guest

    You can obtain programs that can recover data from a simple erased card
    or formatted card. These programs work because only a limited amount of
    data is modified to mark a directory entry as deleted or CF space as
    available. If these information is modified back to indicate the file
    exist and the image detailed information has not been overwritten, it
    will appear as before deletion or formatting.

    There are also programs that will do a high security delete by
    rewritting over the detailed data 8 or more times with a changing and
    random numbers or data. These programs will also rewrite unused space
    to scramble any scratch date. The U.S. Government standard is a minimum
    of 8 rewrites, since they can easily recover data overwritten 8 times
    with specialized equipment as can other data recovery firms.

    The utilities to recover erased or corrupted images are available for
    under $100.00 High security erase programs are included in many system
    utility suites for under $200.00 along with unerase programs.


    John wrote:
    > These excerpts are from two different pages of the same camera user's manual.
    >
    > "Once an image is erased, it cannot be recovered. Make sure that you no
    > longer need the image before erasing it."
    >
    > "Formatting a CF card will erase everything on the card. Even protected
    > images will be erased."
    >
    > "When the card is formatted, only the file management information is changed.
    > The actual data is not completely erased. Keep this in mind when giving the
    > card to another person or discarding it."
    >
    > "When discarding the card, destroy the card physically to prevent the data
    > from being stolen."
    >
    >
    > Using this twisted logic:
    >
    > If I erase images, I cannot be recover them. However, if I discard the card
    > someone else can recover the data (but I can't). Therefore, if I want to
    > recover the data I need to give/sell/dispose of the card so that the next
    > person who takes possession of the card can recover the data.
    >
    > Can you imagine destroying $800 16GB Sandisk CF cards when you no longer need
    > them since the *next* person can recover the data? Naturally, there's no
    > technology on the face of the earth that can wipe a disk or simply filling
    > the disk with junk to overwrite any previously erased images.
     
    George K, Nov 6, 2006
    #6
  7. John

    John Guest

    Joseph Meehan wrote:
    > John wrote:
    >> These excerpts are from two different pages of the same camera user's
    >> manual.
    >> "Once an image is erased, it cannot be recovered. Make sure that you
    >> no longer need the image before erasing it."
    >>
    >> "Formatting a CF card will erase everything on the card. Even
    >> protected images will be erased."
    >>
    >> "When the card is formatted, only the file management information is
    >> changed. The actual data is not completely erased. Keep this in mind
    >> when giving the card to another person or discarding it."
    >>
    >> "When discarding the card, destroy the card physically to prevent the
    >> data from being stolen."
    >>
    >>
    >> Using this twisted logic:
    >>
    >> If I erase images, I cannot be recover them. However, if I discard
    >> the card someone else can recover the data (but I can't). Therefore,
    >> if I want to recover the data I need to give/sell/dispose of the card
    >> so that the next person who takes possession of the card can recover
    >> the data.
    >> Can you imagine destroying $800 16GB Sandisk CF cards when you no
    >> longer need them since the *next* person can recover the data? Naturally,
    >> there's no technology on the face of the earth that can
    >> wipe a disk or simply filling the disk with junk to overwrite any
    >> previously erased images.

    >
    >
    > I believe that is your put those statements in context, and I believe
    > most people will, there is no problem. For most users it is not possible to
    > get images back from a deleted file. However it is possible for someone
    > with a real interest to do so. If someone is really concerned about data on
    > a disk, the only solution I would trust is physical destruction.
    >



    How would one put mutually exclusive statements in a context so that they
    were no longer mutually exclusive?

    Either the images on CF cards are permanently erased or they're not.
     
    John, Nov 6, 2006
    #7
  8. John

    Marvin Guest

    acl wrote:
    > Joseph Meehan wrote:
    >
    >> I believe that is your put those statements in context, and I
    >> believe most people will, there is no problem. For most users it is
    >> not possible to get images back from a deleted file. However it is
    >> possible for someone with a real interest to do so. If someone is
    >> really concerned about data on a disk, the only solution I would trust
    >> is physical destruction.
    >>

    >
    > You're probably right about context-in this case. But in my D200's
    > manual, it says that care must be exercised when operating the diopter
    > control (next to the eyepiece) in order to avoid inserting one's
    > fingernails into one's eye. I challenge you to find a context in which
    > this is a reasonable warning!


    Makers of almost everything are sued for reasons that seem
    strange to many of us. I use alumina rods to sharpen knives
    - they do a great job. I got them free at a trade show.
    The salesman told me that they stopped selling them for
    knife sharpening when they were sued several times by people
    who cut themselves on the sharpened knives! The claims were
    that the product did what it was intended for, but too well.
    Those odd-seeming instructions are a defense against law
    suits.
     
    Marvin, Nov 6, 2006
    #8
  9. John

    l v Guest

    John wrote:

    [snip]

    > need them since the *next* person can recover the data? Naturally,
    > there's no technology on the face of the earth that can wipe a disk or
    > simply filling the disk with junk to overwrite any previously erased
    > images.


    There is software which is approved US Department of Defense for such
    purposes. If good enough for the government, good enough for me and my
    pictures. One example is:
    http://www.whitecanyon.com/clean-disk-software.php

    --

    Len
     
    l v, Nov 6, 2006
    #9
  10. John

    George K Guest

    Many documents are written by many individuals and not always
    consistent in the infromation being disclosed.

    Many lawyers and writers do not know the technical aspects of how an
    image is deleted, they just know they can not recover the image. Also
    not all erased images can be recovered. If there have been other images
    taken after the image has been erased. So one can say it is possible to
    recover images and say not all images can be recovered since there are
    additional facts and information that needs to be known before making
    any statements. Also most absolute statements are wrong at sometime or
    under certain conditions.

    John wrote:
    > Joseph Meehan wrote:
    > > John wrote:
    > >> These excerpts are from two different pages of the same camera user's
    > >> manual.
    > >> "Once an image is erased, it cannot be recovered. Make sure that you
    > >> no longer need the image before erasing it."
    > >>
    > >> "Formatting a CF card will erase everything on the card. Even
    > >> protected images will be erased."
    > >>
    > >> "When the card is formatted, only the file management information is
    > >> changed. The actual data is not completely erased. Keep this in mind
    > >> when giving the card to another person or discarding it."
    > >>
    > >> "When discarding the card, destroy the card physically to prevent the
    > >> data from being stolen."
    > >>
    > >>
    > >> Using this twisted logic:
    > >>
    > >> If I erase images, I cannot be recover them. However, if I discard
    > >> the card someone else can recover the data (but I can't). Therefore,
    > >> if I want to recover the data I need to give/sell/dispose of the card
    > >> so that the next person who takes possession of the card can recover
    > >> the data.
    > >> Can you imagine destroying $800 16GB Sandisk CF cards when you no
    > >> longer need them since the *next* person can recover the data? Naturally,
    > >> there's no technology on the face of the earth that can
    > >> wipe a disk or simply filling the disk with junk to overwrite any
    > >> previously erased images.

    > >
    > >
    > > I believe that is your put those statements in context, and I believe
    > > most people will, there is no problem. For most users it is not possible to
    > > get images back from a deleted file. However it is possible for someone
    > > with a real interest to do so. If someone is really concerned about data on
    > > a disk, the only solution I would trust is physical destruction.
    > >

    >
    >
    > How would one put mutually exclusive statements in a context so that they
    > were no longer mutually exclusive?
    >
    > Either the images on CF cards are permanently erased or they're not.
     
    George K, Nov 6, 2006
    #10
  11. John

    Chris Hills Guest

    In message <ECJ3h.18031$>, John
    >>

    >
    >
    >How would one put mutually exclusive statements in a context so that
    >they were no longer mutually exclusive?
    >
    >Either the images on CF cards are permanently erased or they're not.



    For the average users deleting a picture means it is GONE.

    For the average intelligence service, disaster recovery outfit or hacker
    it might be recoverable.....

    If my mother deletes a file it is GONE
    If I delete a file I might be able to get it back with Norton.

    If I delete a file and format the disk its GONE
    However I know at least two places that might recover it.
    (But they don't offer a commercial service :)

    Why do you thing some people just delete a file but "government
    standard" deleting includes formatting and then re-writing an
    alternating bit pattern at least 3 times.



    --
    \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
    \/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/
    /\/\/ www.phaedsys.org \/\/\
    \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
     
    Chris Hills, Nov 6, 2006
    #11
  12. John

    Paul Rubin Guest

    John <> writes:
    > If I erase images, I cannot be recover them. However, if I discard the
    > card someone else can recover the data (but I can't).


    Both sets of warnings are entirely logical. You could take two
    pictures (call them A and B), each about 3 MB in size (the jpeg size
    varies with the amount of detail in the picture). Then you reformat
    the card and take one more picture (call it C), which is slightly more
    detailed, so the jpeg file is 3.5 MB. C has overwritten the space
    used by A and the first 0.5MB of space used by B. That means A cannot
    be recovered. B cannot be recovered intact but it may be partially
    recoverable. For you the photographer, expecting complete and usable
    images, a partial recovery (whose success is not guaranteed and maybe
    not even likely) is useless. But for an attacker, even getting little
    scattered fragments of pictures here and there from the card may leak
    your confidential info.
     
    Paul Rubin, Nov 6, 2006
    #12
  13. John

    ASAAR Guest

    On Mon, 06 Nov 2006 15:51:08 +0100, acl wrote:

    > You're probably right about context-in this case. But in my D200's
    > manual, it says that care must be exercised when operating the diopter
    > control (next to the eyepiece) in order to avoid inserting one's
    > fingernails into one's eye. I challenge you to find a context in which
    > this is a reasonable warning!


    It's an accident frequently made due to carelessness, usually by
    unobservant, novice pupils. It can happen in the blink of an eye.
    :)

    Seriously, though, while I highly doubt that I could ever suffer
    such an accident, I don't have the fingernails of some women that
    are often longer than an inch or two. It's usually not enough to
    prevent some of them from typing, so it probably wouldn't be enough
    to stop them from using cameras.
     
    ASAAR, Nov 6, 2006
    #13
  14. John

    Bill Funk Guest

    On Mon, 06 Nov 2006 15:51:08 +0100, acl
    <> wrote:

    >Joseph Meehan wrote:
    >> I believe that is your put those statements in context, and I believe
    >> most people will, there is no problem. For most users it is not possible to
    >> get images back from a deleted file. However it is possible for someone
    >> with a real interest to do so. If someone is really concerned about data on
    >> a disk, the only solution I would trust is physical destruction.
    >>

    >
    >You're probably right about context-in this case. But in my D200's
    >manual, it says that care must be exercised when operating the diopter
    >control (next to the eyepiece) in order to avoid inserting one's
    >fingernails into one's eye. I challenge you to find a context in which
    >this is a reasonable warning!


    You're joking, right?
    --
    Bill Funk
    replace "g" with "a"
     
    Bill Funk, Nov 6, 2006
    #14
  15. John

    Bill Funk Guest

    On 6 Nov 2006 08:08:54 -0800, "George K" <> wrote:

    >You can obtain programs that can recover data from a simple erased card
    >or formatted card. These programs work because only a limited amount of
    >data is modified to mark a directory entry as deleted or CF space as
    >available. If these information is modified back to indicate the file
    >exist and the image detailed information has not been overwritten, it
    >will appear as before deletion or formatting.
    >
    >There are also programs that will do a high security delete by
    >rewritting over the detailed data 8 or more times with a changing and
    >random numbers or data. These programs will also rewrite unused space
    >to scramble any scratch date. The U.S. Government standard is a minimum
    >of 8 rewrites, since they can easily recover data overwritten 8 times
    >with specialized equipment as can other data recovery firms.


    There are *VERY* few organizations (and, in the US, none without
    3-letter acronyms) that can recover data fron disks overwritten 3
    times.
    That 8 overwrites is a government standard does not imply that the
    government can recover data overwritten 7 times.

    Eraser is free, and very good.
    http://www.heidi.ie/eraser/
    --
    Bill Funk
    replace "g" with "a"
     
    Bill Funk, Nov 6, 2006
    #15
  16. John

    Bill Funk Guest

    On Mon, 6 Nov 2006 17:46:53 +0000, Chris Hills <>
    wrote:

    >If I delete a file and format the disk its GONE
    >However I know at least two places that might recover it.
    >(But they don't offer a commercial service :)


    There are many recovery apps that will recover data from formatted
    disks and flash RAM cards.
    --
    Bill Funk
    replace "g" with "a"
     
    Bill Funk, Nov 6, 2006
    #16
  17. John

    Eric Miller Guest

    John wrote:
    > These excerpts are from two different pages of the same camera user's
    > manual.
    >
    > "Once an image is erased, it cannot be recovered. Make sure that you no
    > longer need the image before erasing it."
    >
    > "Formatting a CF card will erase everything on the card. Even protected
    > images will be erased."
    >
    > "When the card is formatted, only the file management information is
    > changed. The actual data is not completely erased. Keep this in mind
    > when giving the card to another person or discarding it."
    >
    > "When discarding the card, destroy the card physically to prevent the
    > data from being stolen."
    >
    >
    > Using this twisted logic:
    >
    > If I erase images, I cannot be recover them. However, if I discard the
    > card someone else can recover the data (but I can't). Therefore, if I
    > want to recover the data I need to give/sell/dispose of the card so that
    > the next person who takes possession of the card can recover the data.
    >
    > Can you imagine destroying $800 16GB Sandisk CF cards when you no longer
    > need them since the *next* person can recover the data? Naturally,
    > there's no technology on the face of the earth that can wipe a disk or
    > simply filling the disk with junk to overwrite any previously erased
    > images.



    The problem with your "analysis" is that what you are criticizing is not
    an "argument" and yet you are criticizing it as if it were. It is not
    intended to be "logic," it is simply intended as information to users,
    and all things considered, good information for most users. Since you
    don't get the gist of the instructions, here it is, put a little more
    plainly:

    Don't count on being able to recover an erased image.
    Don't count on others not being able to recover an erased image.
    Don't format a card without backing up images you want to keep.
    Don't rely or card formatting to protect sensitive data.
    Only destroying the card will insure destruction of data.

    Eric Miller
     
    Eric Miller, Nov 6, 2006
    #17

  18. > Makers of almost everything are sued for reasons that seem strange to many
    > of us. I use alumina rods to sharpen knives - they do a great job. I got
    > them free at a trade show. The salesman told me that they stopped selling
    > them for knife sharpening when they were sued several times by people who
    > cut themselves on the sharpened knives! The claims were that the product
    > did what it was intended for, but too well. Those odd-seeming instructions
    > are a defense against law suits.


    More likely they cut themselves while using the rods.
     
    Charles Schuler, Nov 6, 2006
    #18
  19. Paul Rubin wrote:
    > John <> writes:
    >> If I erase images, I cannot be recover them. However, if I discard the
    >> card someone else can recover the data (but I can't).

    >
    > Both sets of warnings are entirely logical. You could take two
    > pictures (call them A and B), each about 3 MB in size (the jpeg size
    > varies with the amount of detail in the picture). Then you reformat
    > the card and take one more picture (call it C), which is slightly more
    > detailed, so the jpeg file is 3.5 MB. C has overwritten the space
    > used by A and the first 0.5MB of space used by B. That means A cannot
    > be recovered. B cannot be recovered intact but it may be partially
    > recoverable.


    Are you quite sure all cameras- or any- allocate their new data space in
    just that manner?

    --
    John McWilliams
     
    John McWilliams, Nov 6, 2006
    #19
  20. John

    acl Guest

    acl, Nov 6, 2006
    #20
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