landline termination charge.

Discussion in 'UK VOIP' started by default, Aug 25, 2008.

  1. default

    default Guest

    BT and VirginMedia have a connection charge of ~6p per call.
    Totally free UK "to landline" calls are available on voip from Finarea
    (www.voipcheap.com, www.smslisto.com, etc)

    What is the actual cost to a company like Finarea of putting a call to
    a landline ?

    Is it a sustainable business model to provide free "to landline" calls
    when they receive only ~10 Euros per 90 days usable on mobiles at ~5
    Eu cents per minute ?

    Thanks,

    Fred
    default, Aug 25, 2008
    #1
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  2. default

    Graham. Guest

    "default" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > BT and VirginMedia have a connection charge of ~6p per call.
    > Totally free UK "to landline" calls are available on voip from Finarea
    > (www.voipcheap.com, www.smslisto.com, etc)
    >
    > What is the actual cost to a company like Finarea of putting a call to
    > a landline ?
    >
    > Is it a sustainable business model to provide free "to landline" calls
    > when they receive only ~10 Euros per 90 days usable on mobiles at ~5
    > Eu cents per minute ?
    >
    > Thanks,
    >
    > Fred


    Unless SWMBO exceeds the 300 in 7 rule like mine has!
    I wonder myself about the buisness model sometimes,
    Betamax have at least 27 brands (and counting) according to
    http://backsla.sh/betamax
    I started with voipcheap.co.uk, (I still have an incomming
    number from them), moved to voipcheap.com, then
    recently moved again to smslisto.com


    --
    Graham.

    %Profound_observation%
    Graham., Aug 25, 2008
    #2
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  3. default

    default Guest


    >> What is the actual cost to a company like Finarea of putting a call to
    >> a landline ?

    >
    >A bit under 1p per minute.


    Gosh, it is even a per minute cost, rather than a single connection
    charge.
    This really surprises me. As I stated, I get "free" landline calls (to
    UK, US, etc) as long as I spend 10 Euros per 90 days on mobiles, 0870,
    etc, and don't exceed a "fair use" amount on SMSlisto.

    Even the rather expensive Skype offer unlimited UK landline calls for
    ~2 pounds per month. If Skype have to pay BT ~1p per minute, that
    doesn't seem to add up.

    Fred
    default, Aug 26, 2008
    #3
  4. In article <>,
    R. Mark Clayton <> wrote:
    >
    >"default" <> wrote in message
    >news:...
    >> BT and VirginMedia have a connection charge of ~6p per call.
    >> Totally free UK "to landline" calls are available on voip from Finarea
    >> (www.voipcheap.com, www.smslisto.com, etc)

    >
    >You may be misreading their promo's.
    >>
    >> What is the actual cost to a company like Finarea of putting a call to
    >> a landline ?

    >
    >A bit under 1p per minute.


    Isn't it actually revenue gernerating for them?

    However I've never been able to get to the bottom of it myself - they
    accept the calls in the UK, compress/voip them off-shore, then send them
    back on-shore via PSTN, where there are some funny/weird termination
    rules and charging schemes in-place?

    Gordon
    Gordon Henderson, Aug 26, 2008
    #4
  5. default a écrit :
    > BT and VirginMedia have a connection charge of ~6p per call.
    > Totally free UK "to landline" calls are available on voip from Finarea
    > (www.voipcheap.com, www.smslisto.com, etc)
    >
    > What is the actual cost to a company like Finarea of putting a call to
    > a landline ?
    >
    > Is it a sustainable business model to provide free "to landline" calls
    > when they receive only ~10 Euros per 90 days usable on mobiles at ~5
    > Eu cents per minute ?


    Sustainable I don't know, but it last since years...
    I found very interesting explanations about how they are making money.
    Unfortunatly it's in French, so here is a Google translation:

    "If there are 1 million users Finarea, or even more, who pays: € 5 or 10
    €… (Remember: VoipBuster, NetAppel, VoipCheap) reported that large
    inflows of money, which also multiplication of tenders for services or
    clones Finarea Betamax almost identical (if it works once, why not try
    again?). The sums obtained quickly are reinvested into two parts: a
    first part is used for the purchase of communications at wholesale
    prices packet telephone minutes - the second part of the money remains
    pending. The income made by the interests of money sufficient to pay for
    free calls. Moreover, as regards destinations pay (and to mobile), they
    are often slightly more expensive than others, it relates their extra
    income.

    Details: at the opening of each new offer of Betamax - Finarea, all
    prices are low (introductory offer), then increased after when a certain
    sum of money was collected. This in turn meant that some users no longer
    use the credit paid (in hope that the price decline) or whether they use
    it at a price become lucrative for Betamax."
    More here:
    http://www.gratostel.com/Betamax_Finarea.htm


    --
    Cordialement,
    ________________
    @ndré

    __o
    _'\(,_
    (_)/ (_)
    André Tuytschaver, Aug 27, 2008
    #5
  6. default

    Mark Guest

    On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 19:30:35 +0200, André Tuytschaver
    <> wrote:

    >default a écrit :
    >> BT and VirginMedia have a connection charge of ~6p per call.
    >> Totally free UK "to landline" calls are available on voip from Finarea
    >> (www.voipcheap.com, www.smslisto.com, etc)
    >>
    >> What is the actual cost to a company like Finarea of putting a call to
    >> a landline ?
    >>
    >> Is it a sustainable business model to provide free "to landline" calls
    >> when they receive only ~10 Euros per 90 days usable on mobiles at ~5
    >> Eu cents per minute ?

    >
    >Sustainable I don't know, but it last since years...
    >I found very interesting explanations about how they are making money.
    >Unfortunatly it's in French, so here is a Google translation:
    >
    >"If there are 1 million users Finarea, or even more, who pays: € 5 or 10
    >€… (Remember: VoipBuster, NetAppel, VoipCheap) reported that large
    >inflows of money, which also multiplication of tenders for services or
    >clones Finarea Betamax almost identical (if it works once, why not try
    >again?). The sums obtained quickly are reinvested into two parts: a
    >first part is used for the purchase of communications at wholesale
    >prices packet telephone minutes - the second part of the money remains
    >pending. The income made by the interests of money sufficient to pay for
    >free calls. Moreover, as regards destinations pay (and to mobile), they
    >are often slightly more expensive than others, it relates their extra
    >income.
    >
    >Details: at the opening of each new offer of Betamax - Finarea, all
    >prices are low (introductory offer), then increased after when a certain
    >sum of money was collected. This in turn meant that some users no longer
    >use the credit paid (in hope that the price decline) or whether they use
    >it at a price become lucrative for Betamax."
    >More here:
    >http://www.gratostel.com/Betamax_Finarea.htm


    Yes, they basically rely on a decent up-front cash-flow plus the
    average person's inertia not to change service provider once signed
    up. (=laziness not bothering to re-check tariffs as time goes by).
    Mark, Aug 27, 2008
    #6
  7. default

    Graham. Guest

    "Mark" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 19:30:35 +0200, André Tuytschaver
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >>default a écrit :
    >>> BT and VirginMedia have a connection charge of ~6p per call.
    >>> Totally free UK "to landline" calls are available on voip from Finarea
    >>> (www.voipcheap.com, www.smslisto.com, etc)
    >>>
    >>> What is the actual cost to a company like Finarea of putting a call to
    >>> a landline ?
    >>>
    >>> Is it a sustainable business model to provide free "to landline" calls
    >>> when they receive only ~10 Euros per 90 days usable on mobiles at ~5
    >>> Eu cents per minute ?

    >>
    >>Sustainable I don't know, but it last since years...
    >>I found very interesting explanations about how they are making money.
    >>Unfortunatly it's in French, so here is a Google translation:
    >>
    >>"If there are 1 million users Finarea, or even more, who pays: ? 5 or 10
    >>?. (Remember: VoipBuster, NetAppel, VoipCheap) reported that large
    >>inflows of money, which also multiplication of tenders for services or
    >>clones Finarea Betamax almost identical (if it works once, why not try
    >>again?). The sums obtained quickly are reinvested into two parts: a
    >>first part is used for the purchase of communications at wholesale
    >>prices packet telephone minutes - the second part of the money remains
    >>pending. The income made by the interests of money sufficient to pay for
    >>free calls. Moreover, as regards destinations pay (and to mobile), they
    >>are often slightly more expensive than others, it relates their extra
    >>income.
    >>
    >>Details: at the opening of each new offer of Betamax - Finarea, all
    >>prices are low (introductory offer), then increased after when a certain
    >>sum of money was collected. This in turn meant that some users no longer
    >>use the credit paid (in hope that the price decline) or whether they use
    >>it at a price become lucrative for Betamax."
    >>More here:
    >>http://www.gratostel.com/Betamax_Finarea.htm

    >
    > Yes, they basically rely on a decent up-front cash-flow plus the
    > average person's inertia not to change service provider once signed
    > up. (=laziness not bothering to re-check tariffs as time goes by).


    Another ploy they use is not allowing you to sign up for a second
    product using the same paypal account as you used to sign up
    previously. You get an instant refund if you try.
    The simple solution is to create a new Paypal account!
    --
    Graham.

    %Profound_observation%
    Graham., Aug 27, 2008
    #7
  8. default

    default Guest

    On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 22:16:10 +0100, Mark <>
    wrote:


    >Yes, they basically rely on a decent up-front cash-flow plus the
    >average person's inertia not to change service provider once signed
    >up. (=laziness not bothering to re-check tariffs as time goes by).


    OK but while I may barely notice if mobile calls go from 4p to 5p per
    minute; I will certainly notice if UK landline calls go from 0p per
    minure with 0p connection, to something higher (eg 1p per minute + 5p
    conection).

    It seems the question of what is the "real" wholesale cost of
    terminating a call to a UK landline is shrouded in mystery :)

    Fred
    default, Aug 27, 2008
    #8
  9. Graham. a écrit :
    > "Mark" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 19:30:35 +0200, André Tuytschaver
    >> <> wrote:
    >>
    >>> default a écrit :


    > Another ploy they use is not allowing you to sign up for a second
    > product using the same paypal account as you used to sign up
    > previously. You get an instant refund if you try.
    > The simple solution is to create a new Paypal account!


    I signed up for several products using the same credit card with no
    problems.


    --
    Cordialement,
    ________________
    @ndré

    __o
    _'\(,_
    (_)/ (_)
    André Tuytschaver, Aug 28, 2008
    #9
  10. default

    Graham. Guest

    "André Tuytschaver" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Graham. a écrit :
    >> "Mark" <> wrote in message
    >> news:...
    >>> On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 19:30:35 +0200, André Tuytschaver
    >>> <> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> default a écrit :

    >
    >> Another ploy they use is not allowing you to sign up for a second
    >> product using the same paypal account as you used to sign up
    >> previously. You get an instant refund if you try.
    >> The simple solution is to create a new Paypal account!

    >
    > I signed up for several products using the same credit card with no
    > problems.



    I don't generally use my credit card directly on-line.
    Mind you, I have heard some horror storeys about
    Paypal.

    By the way, if you pay Betamax using a credit card,
    do they charge a 50c admin charge?

    --
    Graham.

    %Profound_observation%
    Graham., Aug 28, 2008
    #10
  11. default

    Steve Terry Guest

    "Graham." <> wrote in message
    news:g96pc3$fip$...
    > "André Tuytschaver" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> Graham. a écrit :
    >>> "Mark" <> wrote in message
    >>> news:...
    >>>> On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 19:30:35 +0200, André Tuytschaver
    >>>> <> wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> default a écrit :

    >>
    >>> Another ploy they use is not allowing you to sign up for a second
    >>> product using the same paypal account as you used to sign up
    >>> previously. You get an instant refund if you try.
    >>> The simple solution is to create a new Paypal account!

    >>
    >> I signed up for several products using the same credit card with no
    >> problems.

    >
    > I don't generally use my credit card directly on-line.
    > Mind you, I have heard some horror storeys about
    > Paypal.
    >
    >

    Paypal has been good for me, as long as you check that
    the person is "Authorised" which mean their credit card
    details match their address.
    In which case PayPal will insure the payment

    Steve Terry
    Steve Terry, Aug 28, 2008
    #11
  12. Graham. a écrit :
    > "André Tuytschaver" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> Graham. a écrit :
    >>> "Mark" <> wrote in message
    >>> news:...
    >>>> On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 19:30:35 +0200, André Tuytschaver
    >>>> <> wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> default a écrit :
    >>> Another ploy they use is not allowing you to sign up for a second
    >>> product using the same paypal account as you used to sign up
    >>> previously. You get an instant refund if you try.
    >>> The simple solution is to create a new Paypal account!

    >> I signed up for several products using the same credit card with no
    >> problems.

    >
    >
    > I don't generally use my credit card directly on-line.
    > Mind you, I have heard some horror storeys about
    > Paypal.


    > By the way, if you pay Betamax using a credit card,
    > do they charge a 50c admin charge?


    Yes.



    --
    Cordialement,
    ________________
    @ndré

    __o
    _'\(,_
    (_)/ (_)
    André Tuytschaver, Aug 28, 2008
    #12
  13. default

    Graham. Guest

    "André Tuytschaver" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Graham. a écrit :
    >> "André Tuytschaver" <> wrote in message
    >> news:...
    >>> Graham. a écrit :
    >>>> "Mark" <> wrote in message
    >>>> news:...
    >>>>> On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 19:30:35 +0200, André Tuytschaver
    >>>>> <> wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> default a écrit :
    >>>> Another ploy they use is not allowing you to sign up for a second
    >>>> product using the same paypal account as you used to sign up
    >>>> previously. You get an instant refund if you try.
    >>>> The simple solution is to create a new Paypal account!
    >>> I signed up for several products using the same credit card with no
    >>> problems.

    >>
    >>
    >> I don't generally use my credit card directly on-line.
    >> Mind you, I have heard some horror storeys about
    >> Paypal.

    >
    >> By the way, if you pay Betamax using a credit card,
    >> do they charge a 50c admin charge?

    >
    > Yes.

    So is there any way one can pay Betamax the advertised
    price of 10 euros rather than 10.50?
    (I suspect I know the answer).

    --
    Graham.

    %Profound_observation%
    Graham., Aug 28, 2008
    #13
  14. default

    Mark Guest

    On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 21:42:50 GMT, default <> wrote:

    >On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 22:16:10 +0100, Mark <>
    >wrote:
    >
    >
    >>Yes, they basically rely on a decent up-front cash-flow plus the
    >>average person's inertia not to change service provider once signed
    >>up. (=laziness not bothering to re-check tariffs as time goes by).

    >
    >OK but while I may barely notice if mobile calls go from 4p to 5p per
    >minute; I will certainly notice if UK landline calls go from 0p per
    >minure with 0p connection, to something higher (eg 1p per minute + 5p
    >conection).
    >
    >It seems the question of what is the "real" wholesale cost of
    >terminating a call to a UK landline is shrouded in mystery :)


    It's not a mystery at all AFAICS.

    It's clearly volume dependent, but the price is in the order of
    0.5p/minute (as R. Mark Clayton has already stated) and the margin on
    that is pretty small so the actual cost isn't far behind.
    Mark, Aug 28, 2008
    #14
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