Labour hunting geek vote

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by Evil Bastard, Sep 12, 2005.

  1. Evil Bastard

    Evil Bastard Guest

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3408117a14095,00.html

    Now, let's hope they add the cherry and cream on top, by guaranteeing
    the exclusion of (pure) software and business methods from the patent
    system.

    --
    Cheers
    EB

    --

    One who is not a conservative by age 20 has no brain.
    One who is not a liberal by age 40 has no heart.
     
    Evil Bastard, Sep 12, 2005
    #1
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  2. Evil Bastard

    Sue Bilstein Guest

    On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 19:42:38 +1200, Evil Bastard <>
    wrote:

    >http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3408117a14095,00.html
    >
    >Now, let's hope they add the cherry and cream on top, by guaranteeing
    >the exclusion of (pure) software and business methods from the patent
    >system.


    They're really going for a landslide here ...
     
    Sue Bilstein, Sep 12, 2005
    #2
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  3. Evil Bastard

    JimP Guest

    Evil Bastard wrote:
    > http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3408117a14095,00.html
    >
    > Now, let's hope they add the cherry and cream on top, by guaranteeing
    > the exclusion of (pure) software and business methods from the patent
    > system.
    >


    LOL pull the other one! Labour has faffed around for six years and now
    an election is coming they "aim" to get us real broadband with a list of
    measures that they "might take" if they get reelected. Everyone knows
    that Helen slapped down Swainy when he recommended unbundling the local
    loop to cabinet (which would be the best way to achieve their newfound
    aims) because it would cut into the fat dividend cheques that Telecom
    gives to the government.
     
    JimP, Sep 12, 2005
    #3
  4. Evil Bastard

    Sue Bilstein Guest

    On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 21:49:22 +1200, JimP <> wrote:
    >Evil Bastard wrote:
    >> http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3408117a14095,00.html
    >>
    >> Now, let's hope they add the cherry and cream on top, by guaranteeing
    >> the exclusion of (pure) software and business methods from the patent
    >> system.
    >>

    >
    >LOL pull the other one! Labour has faffed around for six years and now
    >an election is coming they "aim" to get us real broadband with a list of
    >measures that they "might take" if they get reelected. Everyone knows
    >that Helen slapped down Swainy when he recommended unbundling the local
    >loop to cabinet (which would be the best way to achieve their newfound
    >aims) because it would cut into the fat dividend cheques that Telecom
    >gives to the government.


    I didn't realise that the government owns any significant share of
    Telecom. Are you sure about that?

    I thought their reluctance was something to do with the Kiwi Share
    deal - how if they have a serious go at Telecom, they may have to
    accept charging for local calls. Plus the fact that Telecom makes up
    a good proportion of the total capitalisation of the NZ sharemarket,
    so attacking Telecom's commercial position means a big drop in the
    NZSX50 index.
     
    Sue Bilstein, Sep 12, 2005
    #4
  5. Evil Bastard

    Guest

    Evil Bastard wrote:
    > Now, let's hope they add the cherry and cream on top, by guaranteeing
    > the exclusion of (pure) software and business methods from the patent
    > system.


    No, let's not. Not all geeks are fascists who want the Government to
    arbitrarily dictate to private enterprise.
     
    , Sep 12, 2005
    #5
  6. Evil Bastard

    kiwigal Guest

    "Evil Bastard" <> wrote in message

    > http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3408117a14095,00.html


    "Mr Cunliffe said today that if Telecom could not meet its target the
    Government would strengthen the Telecommunications Act to ensure its
    competitors gained wholesale broadband access on similar terms to Telecom's
    own retail arm."

    Could someone explain this to me- is Cunliffe saying Telecom currently has a
    broadband access advantage over it's competitors curtesy of the govt?
     
    kiwigal, Sep 12, 2005
    #6
  7. Evil Bastard

    Evil Bastard Guest

    wrote:
    >>Now, let's hope they add the cherry and cream on top, by guaranteeing
    >>the exclusion of (pure) software and business methods from the patent
    >>system.


    > No, let's not. Not all geeks are fascists who want the Government to
    > arbitrarily dictate to private enterprise.


    You got it ass-backwards.

    The US-style patents system is about the Government dictating to
    small/medium sized enterprises at the behest of large enterprises.

    For example, the effort Microsoft is putting in to trying to patent the
    *concept* of storing documents in XML format - a trivial and obvious
    idea with extensive prior art, and certainly not an invention. M$ wants
    the patent so it can undeservedly browbeat competitors.

    Business method patents are as bad or worse - they allow companies to
    stake ownership of even the most trivial ideas.

    Yes, patents can be tossed out in court, but it costs heavily, and thus
    gives large corporations an artifical advantage over smaller ones.

    Another aspect which disadvantages smaller players is the cost of
    searching patents. Small/medium businesses in the USA are now spending
    huge parts of their development budgets on patent searches, akin to
    slowing down a motorcade to sweep for mines.

    Many governments implement laws such as 'anti-trust' statutes to give an
    advantage to smaller companies in competing with larger ones. The
    US-style patent system does exactly the opposite.

    --
    Cheers
    EB

    --

    One who is not a conservative by age 20 has no brain.
    One who is not a liberal by age 40 has no heart.
     
    Evil Bastard, Sep 12, 2005
    #7
  8. Evil Bastard

    Evil Bastard Guest

    kiwigal wrote:
    >>http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3408117a14095,00.html


    > "Mr Cunliffe said today that if Telecom could not meet its target the
    > Government would strengthen the Telecommunications Act to ensure its
    > competitors gained wholesale broadband access on similar terms to Telecom's
    > own retail arm."
    >
    > Could someone explain this to me- is Cunliffe saying Telecom currently has a
    > broadband access advantage over it's competitors curtesy of the govt?


    Does the Pope wear a dress? Does a bear shit in the woods?

    It's akin to a restaurant chain owning all local farms and getting its
    supplies at wholesale cost price, and these farms charging top dollar to
    competing restaurants.

    It was a terrible mistake to sell Telecom lock stock and barrell. The
    government should have kept the copper network and just sold the retail
    business - or, unbundled the copper and retail and floated them separately.

    Telecom owns Xtra, so Xtra gets cheaper bandwidth and faster service,
    while competing ISPs pay through the nose and pick up the crumbs.

    If the local loop were unbundled, there'd be nothing in the way of
    consumers getting 7Mb/s (full speed) ADSL, with a decent uplink speed
    (maybe 1Mb/s or better), with 50GB traffic cap (or none at all) for the
    same price as the present shitty 256k UBS.

    --
    Cheers
    EB

    --

    One who is not a conservative by age 20 has no brain.
    One who is not a liberal by age 40 has no heart.
     
    Evil Bastard, Sep 12, 2005
    #8
  9. In article <>,
    wrote:

    >Evil Bastard wrote:
    >> Now, let's hope they add the cherry and cream on top, by guaranteeing
    >> the exclusion of (pure) software and business methods from the patent
    >> system.

    >
    >No, let's not. Not all geeks are fascists who want the Government to
    >arbitrarily dictate to private enterprise.


    So you think software and business-method patents are pro- rather than
    anti-free-enterprise? You approve of things like the Amazon "one-click"
    patent?
     
    Lawrence D¹Oliveiro, Sep 12, 2005
    #9
  10. Evil Bastard

    Janice Guest

    kiwigal wrote:

    > "Evil Bastard" <> wrote in message
    >
    > > http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3408117a14095,00.html

    >
    > "Mr Cunliffe said today that if Telecom could not meet its target the
    > Government would strengthen the Telecommunications Act to ensure its
    > competitors gained wholesale broadband access on similar terms to Telecom's
    > own retail arm."
    >
    > Could someone explain this to me- is Cunliffe saying Telecom currently has a
    > broadband access advantage over it's competitors curtesy of the govt?


    Telecom was sold a monopoly. Other competitors trying to break into the
    market were stifled by Telecom's monopololy over lines. A Telecommc'tns
    Act introduced by Labour went some way to regulating Telecom following
    years of litigation by frustrated companies trying to enter the market.


    Cunniliffe said "Should a Labour-led government need to strengthen the
    market we will consider amending the wholesaling provisions of the
    Telecommunications Act to ensure it is in line with international best
    practice, including reviewing approaches taken in the EU, the UK and
    Australia."

    I believe approaches taken in other countries is to split monopolies
    into retailing and lines companies, in order to generate open
    competition. I might be reading too much between the lines but it reads
    as though, the Telecommunications Commissioner may be considering this
    course of action for
    Telecom.
     
    Janice, Sep 12, 2005
    #10
  11. Evil Bastard

    kiwigal Guest

    "Evil Bastard" <> wrote in message news:43255ea5
    >
    > It's akin to a restaurant chain owning all local farms and getting its
    > supplies at wholesale cost price, and these farms charging top dollar to
    > competing restaurants.


    Thanks- bit lost on the technical bits I snipped but got this perfectly.
    Have you seen 'The digital strategy: Creating our digital future'- published
    2005. It's the plan of action to be implemented by government over the next
    five years to create a knowledge society in NZ. They reckon broadband is
    absolutely essential for our development/survival in the 21st century. I
    suppose Cunliffe will mow down Telecom if it gets in the way of progress.
     
    kiwigal, Sep 12, 2005
    #11
  12. Evil Bastard

    kiwigal Guest

    "Janice" <> wrote in message

    > Telecom was sold a monopoly. Other competitors trying to break into the
    > market were stifled by Telecom's monopololy over lines. A Telecommc'tns
    > Act introduced by Labour went some way to regulating Telecom following
    > years of litigation by frustrated companies trying to enter the market.
    >
    >
    > Cunniliffe said "Should a Labour-led government need to strengthen the
    > market we will consider amending the wholesaling provisions of the
    > Telecommunications Act to ensure it is in line with international best
    > practice, including reviewing approaches taken in the EU, the UK and
    > Australia."
    >
    > I believe approaches taken in other countries is to split monopolies
    > into retailing and lines companies, in order to generate open
    > competition. I might be reading too much between the lines but it reads
    > as though, the Telecommunications Commissioner may be considering this
    > course of action for
    > Telecom.


    Thanks Janice, appreciate the explanation. From what I've read, seems like
    Cunliffe is very much aware of what needs to be done for NZ's future and is
    working hard to do it.
     
    kiwigal, Sep 12, 2005
    #12
  13. Evil Bastard

    Richard Guest

    > Cunniliffe said "Should a Labour-led government need to strengthen the
    > market we will consider amending the wholesaling provisions of the
    > Telecommunications Act to ensure it is in line with international best
    > practice, including reviewing approaches taken in the EU, the UK and
    > Australia."


    > I believe approaches taken in other countries is to split monopolies
    > into retailing and lines companies, in order to generate open
    > competition. I might be reading too much between the lines but it reads
    > as though, the Telecommunications Commissioner may be considering this
    > course of action for
    > Telecom.


    "should" isnt the word I would you, they _must_ do this. 128k up is a joke that
    people from overseas cannot believe.
     
    Richard, Sep 12, 2005
    #13
  14. Evil Bastard

    Janice Guest

    kiwigal wrote:

    > "Janice" <> wrote in message
    >
    > > Telecom was sold a monopoly. Other competitors trying to break into the
    > > market were stifled by Telecom's monopololy over lines. A Telecommc'tns
    > > Act introduced by Labour went some way to regulating Telecom following
    > > years of litigation by frustrated companies trying to enter the market.
    > >
    > >
    > > Cunniliffe said "Should a Labour-led government need to strengthen the
    > > market we will consider amending the wholesaling provisions of the
    > > Telecommunications Act to ensure it is in line with international best
    > > practice, including reviewing approaches taken in the EU, the UK and
    > > Australia."
    > >
    > > I believe approaches taken in other countries is to split monopolies
    > > into retailing and lines companies, in order to generate open
    > > competition. I might be reading too much between the lines but it reads
    > > as though, the Telecommunications Commissioner may be considering this
    > > course of action for
    > > Telecom.

    >
    > Thanks Janice, appreciate the explanation. From what I've read, seems like
    > Cunliffe is very much aware of what needs to be done for NZ's future and is
    > working hard to do it.


    I agree with you. :)
     
    Janice, Sep 12, 2005
    #14
  15. Evil Bastard

    Philip Guest

    kiwigal wrote:
    > "Evil Bastard" <> wrote in message news:43255ea5
    >
    >>It's akin to a restaurant chain owning all local farms and getting its
    >>supplies at wholesale cost price, and these farms charging top dollar to
    >>competing restaurants.

    >
    >
    > Thanks- bit lost on the technical bits I snipped but got this perfectly.
    > Have you seen 'The digital strategy: Creating our digital future'- published
    > 2005. It's the plan of action to be implemented by government over the next
    > five years to create a knowledge society in NZ. They reckon broadband is
    > absolutely essential for our development/survival in the 21st century. I
    > suppose Cunliffe will mow down Telecom if it gets in the way of progress.
    >


    I hope not. It's not the business of government to "mow down" companies,
    even Bastard Operators from Hell like Telecom has become.

    He should rather try to commit them a real, binding, regulatory
    framework under which they are as free as they can be to develop their
    business and market their products - and so are any other competitors
    that exist now or might happen along.

    That means essentially unbundling - however it is achieved - and
    splitting retail and wholesale into two separate entities. Whether it is
    a Chinese wall or enforced divestiture is a moot point. The Brits have
    told BT, their local equivalent of Telecom, that if it doesn't smarten
    up its act and get on with the game it will be split. The Americans call
    this "trustbusting", and it's been a necessary weapon in the
    government's armory since 1890 and the railroad and oil combines.

    I have doubts whenever government tells a citizen - or a corporation -
    how to behave. But when the behavior is as grossly annoying and costly
    as Telecom's, it's time to bring out the big stick, whup them into line,
    and then stand back and let business proceed. It's worked in the US, in
    the UK, in Germany, in the Netherlands. Time for New Zealand to move
    forward, bust the Telecom NZ "Trust" and join the rest of the real world
    at the upper end of the OECD list.

    Interestingly, Maurice Williamson said in an online session organised by
    Internetnz that he would do just this. Seems not to have been noticed by
    my Lords of the Fourth Estate. Maybe the National Party should have told
    the Exclusive Praying Mantises about it?

    Philip
     
    Philip, Sep 12, 2005
    #15
  16. T'was the Mon, 12 Sep 2005 23:10:35 +1200 when I remembered "kiwigal"
    <> saying something like this:

    >They reckon broadband is
    >absolutely essential for our development/survival in the 21st century.


    It has to be in our transformation into a weightless economy (being
    that our economy will grow, but the total tonnage we ship will remain
    the same, or decrease).

    We can't live off the backs of sheep and cows forever!
    --
    Cheers,

    Waylon Kenning.
     
    Waylon Kenning, Sep 12, 2005
    #16
  17. wrote:
    >>Now, let's hope they add the cherry and cream on top, by guaranteeing
    >>the exclusion of (pure) software and business methods from the patent
    >>system.


    > No, let's not. Not all geeks are fascists who want the Government to
    > arbitrarily dictate to private enterprise.


    indeed

    --
    http://dave.net.nz <- My personal site.
     
    Dave - Dave.net.nz, Sep 12, 2005
    #17
  18. Evil Bastard

    Rob J Guest

    On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 21:59:44 +1200, Sue Bilstein
    <> wrote:

    >On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 21:49:22 +1200, JimP <> wrote:
    >>Evil Bastard wrote:
    >>> http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3408117a14095,00.html
    >>>
    >>> Now, let's hope they add the cherry and cream on top, by guaranteeing
    >>> the exclusion of (pure) software and business methods from the patent
    >>> system.
    >>>

    >>
    >>LOL pull the other one! Labour has faffed around for six years and now
    >>an election is coming they "aim" to get us real broadband with a list of
    >>measures that they "might take" if they get reelected. Everyone knows
    >>that Helen slapped down Swainy when he recommended unbundling the local
    >>loop to cabinet (which would be the best way to achieve their newfound
    >>aims) because it would cut into the fat dividend cheques that Telecom
    >>gives to the government.

    >
    >I didn't realise that the government owns any significant share of
    >Telecom. Are you sure about that?


    I think he's confused, he means tax.
     
    Rob J, Sep 12, 2005
    #18
  19. Evil Bastard

    Rob J Guest

    On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 22:39:36 +1200, Evil Bastard <>
    wrote:

    > wrote:
    >>>Now, let's hope they add the cherry and cream on top, by guaranteeing
    >>>the exclusion of (pure) software and business methods from the patent
    >>>system.

    >
    >> No, let's not. Not all geeks are fascists who want the Government to
    >> arbitrarily dictate to private enterprise.

    >
    >You got it ass-backwards.
    >
    >The US-style patents system is about the Government dictating to
    >small/medium sized enterprises at the behest of large enterprises.
    >
    >For example, the effort Microsoft is putting in to trying to patent the
    >*concept* of storing documents in XML format - a trivial and obvious
    >idea with extensive prior art, and certainly not an invention. M$ wants
    >the patent so it can undeservedly browbeat competitors.


    Funny, I was looking at some software the other day, that says "Our
    XML file format is copyright".
     
    Rob J, Sep 12, 2005
    #19
  20. Evil Bastard

    Rob J Guest

    On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 22:47:07 +1200, Evil Bastard <>
    wrote:

    >kiwigal wrote:
    >>>http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3408117a14095,00.html

    >
    >> "Mr Cunliffe said today that if Telecom could not meet its target the
    >> Government would strengthen the Telecommunications Act to ensure its
    >> competitors gained wholesale broadband access on similar terms to Telecom's
    >> own retail arm."
    >>
    >> Could someone explain this to me- is Cunliffe saying Telecom currently has a
    >> broadband access advantage over it's competitors curtesy of the govt?

    >
    >Does the Pope wear a dress? Does a bear shit in the woods?
    >
    >It's akin to a restaurant chain owning all local farms and getting its
    >supplies at wholesale cost price, and these farms charging top dollar to
    >competing restaurants.
    >
    >It was a terrible mistake to sell Telecom lock stock and barrell. The
    >government should have kept the copper network and just sold the retail
    >business - or, unbundled the copper and retail and floated them separately.
    >
    >Telecom owns Xtra, so Xtra gets cheaper bandwidth and faster service,
    >while competing ISPs pay through the nose and pick up the crumbs.
    >
    >If the local loop were unbundled, there'd be nothing in the way of
    >consumers getting 7Mb/s (full speed) ADSL, with a decent uplink speed
    >(maybe 1Mb/s or better), with 50GB traffic cap (or none at all) for the
    >same price as the present shitty 256k UBS.


    No evidence. The local loop is still a monopoly. They don't have to
    upgrade it or provide new services as long as the money keeps rolling
    in.
     
    Rob J, Sep 12, 2005
    #20
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