Kudos to Disney...

Discussion in 'DVD Video' started by Mike Kohary, Jun 2, 2004.

  1. Mike Kohary

    Mike Kohary Guest

    ....for apparently beginning to get over the not-so-PC aspects of some of
    their older material, and I wonder if this bodes well for a future release
    of "Song of the South"? I was watching the latest "Mickey Mouse in Living
    Color" release with my kids yesterday, and they are indeed unedited and
    uncut, including some elements that would be considered quite insensitive
    and unsavory in today's political climate. These segments are preceded with
    a brief commentary by Leonard Maltin, explaining what the offensive elements
    are and why they were used at the time, giving a bit of historical
    perspective. While they make no excuses, they also make it clear that there
    was no malicious intent - this was simply the way that entertainment was
    commonly presented at the time these cartoons were made, and attitudes have
    shifted since then.

    I think this is a very common sense approach to an admittedly sticky
    problem. I'm hoping that future releases of such items as "Fantasia" and
    "Song of the South" might be forthcoming with no edits and an explanation of
    why these pieces were acceptable at the time. Putting some historical
    context behind them goes a long way towards making them palatable for today.
    I've long said that "Song of the South" in particular could be released in
    this fasion, and in fact is an excellent candidate for a "Disney Treasures"
    release as opposed to a standard movie release, in which a lot of room can
    be given to explaining the offensive elements contained in this picture and
    put into historical context.

    Mike
     
    Mike Kohary, Jun 2, 2004
    #1
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  2. Mike Kohary

    Mike Kohary Guest

    Derek Janssen wrote:
    > Mike Kohary wrote:
    >
    >> ...for apparently beginning to get over the not-so-PC aspects of
    >> some of their older material, and I wonder if this bodes well for a
    >> future release of "Song of the South"?

    >
    > The disk producer still said they didn't know--
    > http://www.animated-news.com/archives/00001479.html


    "The next question from the audience was about the possibility of Song of
    the South ever seeing the light of day on DVD. Dave responded by saying that
    he had previously thought it would be impossible to get a collection like On
    The Front Lines released, but that it was released, so maybe something
    similar could happen for Song of the South."

    So, basically the same thing I said - the current releases indicate that
    Disney is relaxing a bit, and releasing material we never thought they'd do
    before. Therefore, I think this bodes well for the chances of a future SOTS
    release.

    > And you can praise them for the next six months, you're still wishing.


    Of course. But they deserve the praise for not shelving the items I
    mentioned on the Mickey Volume 2 release, and for the Front Lines release as
    well. It's not flattery - I see actual progress.

    Mike
     
    Mike Kohary, Jun 2, 2004
    #2
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  3. Mike Kohary wrote:

    > ...for apparently beginning to get over the not-so-PC aspects of some of
    > their older material, and I wonder if this bodes well for a future release
    > of "Song of the South"?


    The disk producer still said they didn't know--
    http://www.animated-news.com/archives/00001479.html

    And you can praise them for the next six months, you're still wishing.

    Derek Janssen (flattery'll getcha nowhere with studio rights)
     
    Derek Janssen, Jun 2, 2004
    #3
  4. A lot of that stuff is so antiquated and offensive as to be laughable,
    but one wonders if people are being too sensitive about some of it. I
    remember reading the TinTin comics, and black people in those comics
    look like Al Jolson in full makeup, and Japanese characters had pug
    noses, squinty eyes, and huge teeth. And yet, in the middle of all this
    the main character takes time out to explain to a Chinese kid about
    "stupid Europeans" who think they're better than non-Europeans, and
    there's also a subplot involving a racist white guy who gets trashed so
    badly you would think the writer hated white people, if he weren't white
    himself. So are stereotypical drawings *necessarily* racist? I think
    the answer is probably no, even though this goes against PC ideology.
    After all, I've just given an example in which a cartoonist who is
    obviously passionately anti-racist drew thick-lipped Africans and
    buck-toothed Asians. It was just the artistic style of the day. After
    all, to an Asian person, a drawing of Homer Simpson looks like a
    charicature of a white person.

    --
    "I like the cover: 'DON'T PANIC.' It's the first sensible thing I've
    heard all day."
    --Arthur Dent

    Grand Inquisitor
    http://www.dvdprofiler.com/mycollection.asp?alias=Oost
     
    Grand Inquisitor, Jun 2, 2004
    #4
  5. Mike Kohary

    RnR Lesnar Guest

    Compared to what you see on MTV, those old cartoons are not offensive at
    all. I'm not against what is seen on TV today and don't believe in censoring
    everything, but it is ridiculous for Maltin to have to explain the old
    cartoons because some people may be offended by them, yet what is shown on
    TV today is far worse.

    If I were black, I think I'd be more offended by Ludacris freely throwing
    around the n word and calling women ho's and bitches as they shook their ass
    in the camera than by Song of the South.
    --
    RnR Lesnar
    It's True, It's True- Kurt Angle
    Bush/Cheney 2004
     
    RnR Lesnar, Jun 3, 2004
    #5
  6. Mike Kohary

    RnR Lesnar Guest

    "Derek Janssen" <> wrote in message
    news:40be4bba$0$2945$...
    > Grand Inquisitor wrote:
    > >
    > > <unresearched generic default stuff to bluff>

    >
    > Well, actually, we were kind of *assuming* Disney had the aborted '96
    > 50th-anniversary reissue in mind, playing up the "black history" angle
    > with the James Earl Jones intro and the "John Henry" short...
    >
    > And given how many showoffs grabbed up the Wartime set just for geeky
    > historical/core-fan bragging rights (uh, y'know, "Victory Through Air
    > Power" just isn't that *interesting*??), hopefully, Disney'll get the
    > right wrong idea, misinterpret this as "mainstream appeal", and try
    > playing the Issue card to sell SotS.


    I have to say that Victory through Air power was VERY interesting. I like
    history, and I find it cool to see the beginnings of the air force. You
    have to watch it in context with the time. That must have just wowed people
    back then.

    The one that I thought I'd have the least interest in turned out to be one
    of the best, and thats Tomorrowland. The first disc was really great. Again,
    with that you have to watch it knowing that all that stuff was new to people
    when it was shown. Most of us here grew up with that technology already
    existing. But in the 50's, sending a manned rocket into space was an idea.


    --
    RnR Lesnar
    It's True, It's True- Kurt Angle
    Bush/Cheney 2004
     
    RnR Lesnar, Jun 3, 2004
    #6
  7. Mike Kohary

    Invid Fan Guest

    In article <40be4bba$0$2945$>, Derek Janssen
    <> wrote:

    > (uh, y'know, "Victory Through Air Power" just isn't that *interesting*??)


    Depends on your interests, naturally. I thought it was damned fun, a
    look at how to win the war that was wrong :) Only for history geeks,
    though, I agree.

    (I mean, it's a compelling argument that island hopping till the US
    controled airbases near Japan would never work. Yet, it turned out to
    be somewhat easy. As I said, damned fun ^_^)

    --
    Chris Mack "Refugee, total shit. That's how I've always seen us.
    'Invid Fan' Not a help, you'll admit, to agreement between us."
    -'Deal/No Deal', CHESS
     
    Invid Fan, Jun 3, 2004
    #7
  8. Grand Inquisitor wrote:
    >
    > <unresearched generic default stuff to bluff>


    Well, actually, we were kind of *assuming* Disney had the aborted '96
    50th-anniversary reissue in mind, playing up the "black history" angle
    with the James Earl Jones intro and the "John Henry" short...

    And given how many showoffs grabbed up the Wartime set just for geeky
    historical/core-fan bragging rights (uh, y'know, "Victory Through Air
    Power" just isn't that *interesting*??), hopefully, Disney'll get the
    right wrong idea, misinterpret this as "mainstream appeal", and try
    playing the Issue card to sell SotS.

    (To make up for all that money they spent on the theatrical print
    restoration eight years ago.)

    Derek Janssen (now, y'see?--It's called "content"...Lively stuff, ain't it?)
     
    Derek Janssen, Jun 3, 2004
    #8
  9. RnR Lesnar wrote:

    > Compared to what you see on MTV, those old cartoons are not offensive at
    > all. I'm not against what is seen on TV today and don't believe in censoring
    > everything, but it is ridiculous for Maltin to have to explain the old
    > cartoons because some people may be offended by them, yet what is shown on
    > TV today is far worse.
    >
    > If I were black, I think I'd be more offended by Ludacris freely throwing
    > around the n word and calling women ho's and bitches as they shook their ass
    > in the camera than by Song of the South.


    I completely agree. If I were black I'd rather be stereotyped as simple
    and primitive than as a barbaric sex-mad guy who can't feed his kids,
    which is the image we get from MTV, NYPD Blue, rap, etc. Being a
    Southerner I already *am* stereotyped as simple and primitive, too. :-O

    --
    "I like the cover: 'DON'T PANIC.' It's the first sensible thing I've
    heard all day."
    --Arthur Dent

    Grand Inquisitor
    http://www.dvdprofiler.com/mycollection.asp?alias=Oost
     
    Grand Inquisitor, Jun 3, 2004
    #9
  10. Mike Kohary

    Invid Fan Guest

    In article <40be771a$0$2979$>, Derek Janssen
    <> wrote:

    > Invid Fan wrote:
    >
    > >>(uh, y'know, "Victory Through Air Power" just isn't that *interesting*??)

    > >
    > > Depends on your interests, naturally. I thought it was damned fun, a
    > > look at how to win the war that was wrong :) Only for history geeks,
    > > though, I agree.

    >
    > No, not history geeks--
    > Meant that particular fringe of rabid, slavering Disney/animation geeks
    > (often referred to as the Pecos Bill-ites) who want anything twice as
    > much if they think it's been "banned" or "censored" by the studio:
    > "Oh, and make sure they put on 'Education for Death', they'll never show
    > that on TV--And 'Der Fuehrer's Face', where Donald says Heil Hitler!
    > <drool, drool, slobber>..."
    >

    Those may be the geeks buying it, but it's those interested in military
    history that will actually enjoy "Victory Through Air Power".

    > Of course, Diz's a little too naive about said geekdom, and thinks all
    > the sales are coming from core Leonard Maltin fans--


    Where as if they were smart they'd advertise on the History Channel.

    --
    Chris Mack "Refugee, total shit. That's how I've always seen us.
    'Invid Fan' Not a help, you'll admit, to agreement between us."
    -'Deal/No Deal', CHESS
     
    Invid Fan, Jun 3, 2004
    #10
  11. Invid Fan wrote:

    >>(uh, y'know, "Victory Through Air Power" just isn't that *interesting*??)

    >
    > Depends on your interests, naturally. I thought it was damned fun, a
    > look at how to win the war that was wrong :) Only for history geeks,
    > though, I agree.


    No, not history geeks--
    Meant that particular fringe of rabid, slavering Disney/animation geeks
    (often referred to as the Pecos Bill-ites) who want anything twice as
    much if they think it's been "banned" or "censored" by the studio:
    "Oh, and make sure they put on 'Education for Death', they'll never show
    that on TV--And 'Der Fuehrer's Face', where Donald says Heil Hitler!
    <drool, drool, slobber>..."

    Of course, Diz's a little too naive about said geekdom, and thinks all
    the sales are coming from core Leonard Maltin fans--
    Disney might probably end up using the Wartime press to play the
    "Historical value" card with SotS, when they'd be smarter off playing
    the new-generation "Splash Mountain" card...
    But at this point, think the operative phrase is "Just whatever cons it
    in through the darn boardroom".

    Derek Janssen
     
    Derek Janssen, Jun 3, 2004
    #11
  12. RnR Lesnar wrote:
    >
    > The one that I thought I'd have the least interest in turned out to be one
    > of the best, and thats Tomorrowland. The first disc was really great. Again,
    > with that you have to watch it knowing that all that stuff was new to people
    > when it was shown. Most of us here grew up with that technology already
    > existing. But in the 50's, sending a manned rocket into space was an idea.


    Forget that--The CARTOONS on the Disk 1 episodes:
    Ward "Toot, Whistle, Plunk & Boom" Kimball meets John "Road Runner/Pink
    Panther" Dunn...

    ....Sort of your basic "What if Chuck Jones had been hired by Disney?"
    fantasy. :)

    Derek Janssen (you just didn't think Disney had it in them)
     
    Derek Janssen, Jun 3, 2004
    #12
  13. Mike Kohary

    RnR Lesnar Guest

    "Invid Fan" <> wrote in message
    news:020620042021472960%...
    > In article <40be4bba$0$2945$>, Derek Janssen
    > <> wrote:
    >
    > > (uh, y'know, "Victory Through Air Power" just isn't that

    *interesting*??)
    >
    > Depends on your interests, naturally. I thought it was damned fun, a
    > look at how to win the war that was wrong :) Only for history geeks,
    > though, I agree.


    What do you mean by "the war that was wrong"?


    --
    RnR Lesnar
    It's True, It's True- Kurt Angle
    Bush/Cheney 2004
     
    RnR Lesnar, Jun 3, 2004
    #13
  14. On Thu, 3 Jun 2004 03:06:45 -0500, "RnR Lesnar"
    <> wrote:

    >
    >"Invid Fan" <> wrote in message
    >news:020620042021472960%...
    >> In article <40be4bba$0$2945$>, Derek Janssen
    >> <> wrote:
    >>
    >> > (uh, y'know, "Victory Through Air Power" just isn't that

    >*interesting*??)
    >>
    >> Depends on your interests, naturally. I thought it was damned fun, a
    >> look at how to win the war that was wrong :) Only for history geeks,
    >> though, I agree.

    >
    >What do you mean by "the war that was wrong"?



    Read again, he said that the LOOK at HOW to win the war was wrong, the
    winning strategy was wrong, not the war itself. The film's timeline
    of how to take Japan using firepower is an interesting suggestion of
    how history may have progressed if Atomic bombs hadn't been dropped on
    Japan.

    ... Steve ..
     
    Steve(JazzHunter), Jun 3, 2004
    #14
  15. Mike Kohary

    Mike Kohary Guest

    Grand Inquisitor wrote:
    > A lot of that stuff is so antiquated and offensive as to be laughable,
    > but one wonders if people are being too sensitive about some of it. I
    > remember reading the TinTin comics, and black people in those comics
    > look like Al Jolson in full makeup, and Japanese characters had pug
    > noses, squinty eyes, and huge teeth. And yet, in the middle of all
    > this the main character takes time out to explain to a Chinese kid
    > about "stupid Europeans" who think they're better than non-Europeans,
    > and there's also a subplot involving a racist white guy who gets
    > trashed so badly you would think the writer hated white people, if he
    > weren't white himself. So are stereotypical drawings *necessarily*
    > racist? I think the answer is probably no, even though this goes
    > against PC ideology. After all, I've just given an example in which a
    > cartoonist who is obviously passionately anti-racist drew
    > thick-lipped Africans and buck-toothed Asians. It was just the
    > artistic style of the day. After all, to an Asian person, a drawing
    > of Homer Simpson looks like a charicature of a white person.


    Good points, and these are exactly the sorts of things Maltin briefly
    explains on the Mickey Vol. 2 collection.

    Mike
     
    Mike Kohary, Jun 3, 2004
    #15
  16. Mike Kohary

    Invid Fan Guest

    In article <c9mm6l$e36$>, RnR Lesnar
    <> wrote:

    > "Invid Fan" <> wrote in message
    > news:020620042021472960%...
    > > In article <40be4bba$0$2945$>, Derek Janssen
    > > <> wrote:
    > >
    > > > (uh, y'know, "Victory Through Air Power" just isn't that

    > *interesting*??)
    > >
    > > Depends on your interests, naturally. I thought it was damned fun, a
    > > look at how to win the war that was wrong :) Only for history geeks,
    > > though, I agree.

    >
    > What do you mean by "the war that was wrong"?


    You didn't read the whole sentence :) The film says that it's pointless
    to try and attack either Japan or Germany directly, that the only way
    to win the war was to use long range bombers to beat the hell out of
    them. This was wrong. In practice, the US was able to capture those
    airbases within range of Japan that the film said could never be taken
    within a year. To have followed what they suggested would be to have
    just held the line in the Pacific and done nothing until new long range
    bombers were built in a couple years, then maybe going on the attack in
    1945 or 46.

    --
    Chris Mack "Refugee, total shit. That's how I've always seen us.
    'Invid Fan' Not a help, you'll admit, to agreement between us."
    -'Deal/No Deal', CHESS
     
    Invid Fan, Jun 3, 2004
    #16
  17. On Wed, 2 Jun 2004, Derek Janssen wrote:

    > Forget that--The CARTOONS on the Disk 1 episodes:
    > Ward "Toot, Whistle, Plunk & Boom" Kimball meets John "Road Runner/Pink
    > Panther" Dunn...
    >
    > ...Sort of your basic "What if Chuck Jones had been hired by Disney?"
    > fantasy. :)
    >
    > Derek Janssen (you just didn't think Disney had it in them)


    But Chuck Jones *was* hired by Disney... :)

    swac
    Which is why I have a box set side full of Sniffles cartoons.
     
    Stephen Cooke, Jun 3, 2004
    #17
  18. On Wed, 2 Jun 2004, Derek Janssen wrote:

    > Meant that particular fringe of rabid, slavering Disney/animation geeks
    > (often referred to as the Pecos Bill-ites) who want anything twice as
    > much if they think it's been "banned" or "censored" by the studio:
    > "Oh, and make sure they put on 'Education for Death', they'll never show
    > that on TV--And 'Der Fuehrer's Face', where Donald says Heil Hitler!
    > <drool, drool, slobber>..."


    Yeah, well...so what?

    swac
     
    Stephen Cooke, Jun 3, 2004
    #18
  19. Mike Kohary

    Mike Kohary Guest

    Derek Janssen wrote:
    > Stephen Cooke wrote:
    >
    >> On Wed, 2 Jun 2004, Derek Janssen wrote:
    >>
    >>> Meant that particular fringe of rabid, slavering Disney/animation
    >>> geeks (often referred to as the Pecos Bill-ites) who want anything
    >>> twice as much if they think it's been "banned" or "censored" by the
    >>> studio: "Oh, and make sure they put on 'Education for Death',
    >>> they'll never show that on TV--And 'Der Fuehrer's Face', where
    >>> Donald says Heil Hitler! <drool, drool, slobber>..."

    >>
    >> Yeah, well...so what?

    >
    > Well, the mentality's about three or four years out of date--
    > Seeing as how the PB's tend to be either addicted to the National
    > Geographic thrill of seeing Disney do something "dirty", or are
    > psychologically stuck in 1999 and want to think they're "taking back"
    > the studio from the Limited Edition-era management.
    >
    > (These tend to be the posters who flood the DVD groups with paranoid
    > "Okay, tell me, what'd they cut, what'd they cut; I know they said
    > 'restored', but it's Disney, they had to have cut SOMETHING, I know
    > it!" posts, two days before any hi-profile Disney release...)


    You're being presumptuous about the motivations of these so-called PB's.
    For my part, it has nothing to do with either of the reasons you give above.
    For me, it's a simple matter of paranoia about the studio censoring itself,
    because they have a rich history of doing so. I'm a purist, and like to
    know that the discs I collect are true to the original work. It's that
    simple, nothing more, I promise you. :)

    Mike
     
    Mike Kohary, Jun 3, 2004
    #19
  20. Stephen Cooke wrote:

    > On Wed, 2 Jun 2004, Derek Janssen wrote:
    >
    >
    >>Meant that particular fringe of rabid, slavering Disney/animation geeks
    >>(often referred to as the Pecos Bill-ites) who want anything twice as
    >>much if they think it's been "banned" or "censored" by the studio:
    >>"Oh, and make sure they put on 'Education for Death', they'll never show
    >>that on TV--And 'Der Fuehrer's Face', where Donald says Heil Hitler!
    >><drool, drool, slobber>..."

    >
    > Yeah, well...so what?


    Well, the mentality's about three or four years out of date--
    Seeing as how the PB's tend to be either addicted to the National
    Geographic thrill of seeing Disney do something "dirty", or are
    psychologically stuck in 1999 and want to think they're "taking back"
    the studio from the Limited Edition-era management.

    (These tend to be the posters who flood the DVD groups with paranoid
    "Okay, tell me, what'd they cut, what'd they cut; I know they said
    'restored', but it's Disney, they had to have cut SOMETHING, I know it!"
    posts, two days before any hi-profile Disney release...)

    Derek Janssen (we must help these poor, traumatized souls)
     
    Derek Janssen, Jun 3, 2004
    #20
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