JFK: Tales From Dealey Plaza.

Discussion in 'DVD Video' started by Scot Gardner, Nov 17, 2003.

  1. Scot Gardner

    Scot Gardner Guest

    It's not just a coincidence that Warner Bros. has just released yet
    another DVD version of Oliver Stone's _JFK_. After all, Saturday,
    November 22, will be the 40th anniversary of JFK's death.

    Just when I thought that the JFK assassination conspiracy was a proven
    fact, contradictory evidence has surfaced. After watching "Beyond JFK:
    The Question of Conspiracy", which is contained on the new and improved
    _JFK_ supplementary disk, I'm beginning to doubt the testimony of some
    of the Dealey Plaza witnesses prominently featured in the documentary.

    There is photo evidence which contradicts some testimony, conflicting
    stories told by the same person over the years and other strange
    accounts. It's hard to distinguish some of the Dealey Plaza eye
    witnesses from the people who regularly have lunch with Elvis at Burger
    King.

    People who have come to rely on claims made by the Dealey Plaza
    celebrities, such as James Tague, Marilyn Sitzman, Julia Ann Mercer,
    Mary Moorman, Jean Hill, Beverly Oliver and Ed Hoffman might want to
    check out the website below.

    http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dealey.htm
     
    Scot Gardner, Nov 17, 2003
    #1
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  2. Scot Gardner

    Steve Hanson Guest

    Scot Gardner wrote in <20031116232906.839$>:

    >It's not just a coincidence that Warner Bros. has just released yet
    >another DVD version of Oliver Stone's _JFK_. After all, Saturday,
    >November 22, will be the 40th anniversary of JFK's death.
    >
    >Just when I thought that the JFK assassination conspiracy was a proven
    >fact, contradictory evidence has surfaced. After watching "Beyond JFK:
    >The Question of Conspiracy", which is contained on the new and improved
    >_JFK_ supplementary disk, I'm beginning to doubt the testimony of some
    >of the Dealey Plaza witnesses prominently featured in the documentary.
    >
    >There is photo evidence which contradicts some testimony, conflicting
    >stories told by the same person over the years and other strange
    >accounts. It's hard to distinguish some of the Dealey Plaza eye
    >witnesses from the people who regularly have lunch with Elvis at Burger
    >King.
    >
    >People who have come to rely on claims made by the Dealey Plaza
    >celebrities, such as James Tague, Marilyn Sitzman, Julia Ann Mercer,
    >Mary Moorman, Jean Hill, Beverly Oliver and Ed Hoffman might want to
    >check out the website below.
    >
    >http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dealey.htm
    >


    This is old news though. Most of the conspiracy freaks are nutcases
    that one expects also have UFO abduction stories or past life memories
    to relate. Go to Dealey Plaza (I live close to it). It's not a very
    large area. It's unfathonable that someone could have shot from, say,
    the grassy knoll without being spotted by scores of spectators. Hell,
    some of the wackos posit a shooter within the line of sight of most of
    the people there, if you actually stand in the plaza and pinpoint
    where they claim the shots came from. I think I'd notice someone
    taking aim and firing at the presidential motorcade within 30 feet of
    me, wouldn't you?

    Oswald's sniper's nest was an ideal vantage point, and still he was
    unable to conceal himself totally from witnesses. (And this raises
    another question: why would you put your patsy in one of the
    best-concealed and most advantageous shooting positions? Wouldn't you
    rather have the real trigger man there?) Now consider someone
    standing out in the open with little or no cover and in constant risk
    of detection by passers-by. Sounds pretty implausible, doesn't it?
    Cue paranoid fantasies about faked seizures, hobos, etc.

    People will believe almost anything.
     
    Steve Hanson, Nov 17, 2003
    #2
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  3. Scot Gardner

    Scot Gardner Guest

    "Steve Hanson" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >People who have come to rely on claims made by the Dealey
    >Plaza celebrities, such as James Tague, Marilyn Sitzman, Julia
    >Ann Mercer, Mary Moorman, Jean Hill, Beverly Oliver and Ed
    >Hoffman might want to check out the website below.
    >
    >http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dealey.htm
    >


    <<This is old news though. Most of the conspiracy freaks are nutcases
    that one expects also have UFO abduction stories or past life memories
    to relate. Go to Dealey Plaza (I live close to it). It's not a very
    large area. It's unfathonable that someone could have shot from, say,
    the grassy knoll without being spotted by scores of spectators. Hell,
    some of the wackos posit(ion) a shooter within the line of sight of most
    of the people there, if you actually stand in the plaza and pinpoint
    where they claim the shots came from. I think I'd notice someone taking
    aim and firing at the presidential motorcade within 30 feet of me,
    wouldn't you?>>

    <<Oswald's sniper's nest was an ideal vantage point, and still he was
    unable to conceal himself totally from witnesses. (And this raises
    another question: why would you put your patsy in one of the
    best-concealed and most advantageous shooting positions? Wouldn't you
    rather have the real trigger man there?) Now consider someone standing
    out in the open with little or no cover and in constant risk of
    detection by passers-by. Sounds pretty implausible, doesn't it? Cue
    paranoid fantasies about faked seizures, hobos, etc.>>

    <<People will believe almost anything.>>


    The main argument against a single assassin operating from the 6th floor
    of the Book Depository building is that the best shot was missed when
    the Presidential Motorcade turned right off of Main Street and proceeded
    north on Houston Street. On Houston Street, the motorcade would have
    been moving very slowly in order to make the awkward left turn onto Elm
    Street. With the motorcade moving at 5 miles per hour on Houston Street,
    a lone gunman in the Book Depository would have the best shot as the
    motorcade would have been proceeding toward him.

    Here is another link in the conspiracy theory chain: Why did the
    motorcade slow down to negotiate the turn off Main Street onto Houston
    Street and then make another slow turn onto Elm Street? The logical and
    much safer route would have been to proceed directly down Main Street to
    the underpass and then move right over Elm Street and onto the Stemmons
    Freeway. (You have been there. Is it possible, in spite of the signs
    saying not to merge to the right across Elm Street, to get onto the
    Stemmons Freeway from Main Street?)

    While some of the Dealey Plaza celebrities may be totally nuts, there
    are still many contradictions and uncertainties as to the number of
    shooters, the direction of the shots and the number of shots fired. This
    is the point that Oliver Stone is making when he says that there are 150
    contradictions (for example) to the Warren Report. If we subtract the
    Grassy Knoll testimony, we still have 149 contradictions. That
    incredible Magic Bullet is a good one:

    "I can't get it off my mind! It's obsessing me! ... He drove past the
    book depository and the police said conclusively that it was an exit
    wound. So how is it possible for Oswald to have fired from two angles at
    once? It doesn't make sense! I'll tell you this, he was not marksman
    enough to hit a moving target at that range. But if there was a second
    assassin... -- That's It!"

    -- Woody Allen in _Annie Hall_.
     
    Scot Gardner, Nov 17, 2003
    #3
  4. Scot Gardner

    Steve Hanson Guest

    Scot Gardner wrote in <20031117105010.907$>:

    >The main argument against a single assassin operating from the 6th floor
    >of the Book Depository building is that the best shot was missed when
    >the Presidential Motorcade turned right off of Main Street and proceeded
    >north on Houston Street. On Houston Street, the motorcade would have
    >been moving very slowly in order to make the awkward left turn onto Elm
    >Street. With the motorcade moving at 5 miles per hour on Houston Street,
    >a lone gunman in the Book Depository would have the best shot as the
    >motorcade would have been proceeding toward him.


    If this is the best argument against a single assassin then it's also
    the best argument against anything happening anywhere. People are
    unpredictable. Oswald may have felt uncomfortable shooting the
    motorcade as it approached as opposed to when it was (slowly) driving
    past--it can seem easier to track a target that is moving away from
    you. For that matter, why didn't the conspiracy shoot him at that
    point (during the turn)? Why wasn't the trigger man in the Book
    Depository? They so beautifully arranged everything else including
    crowd diversions.

    Oswald was a pretty random character if you read a good biography of
    him. Nearly illiterate, obsessed with fantasies of playing some major
    role in communist society, a total loser who evidently took potshots
    at a right-wing general prior to the assassination. I don't think you
    could explain many of his actions in life on the basis of strictly
    rational behavior. Maybe he just hesitated then shot while he still
    had a chance.

    >Here is another link in the conspiracy theory chain: Why did the
    >motorcade slow down to negotiate the turn off Main Street onto Houston
    >Street and then make another slow turn onto Elm Street? The logical and
    >much safer route would have been to proceed directly down Main Street to
    >the underpass and then move right over Elm Street and onto the Stemmons
    >Freeway. (You have been there. Is it possible, in spite of the signs
    >saying not to merge to the right across Elm Street, to get onto the
    >Stemmons Freeway from Main Street?)


    The whole point of a motorcade is to let people see the president, not
    get him onto Stemmons Freeway like a bat-out-of-hell yuppie during
    rush hour. The site you linked to contains a thorough discussion of
    this issue and specifically discusses why they didn't just drive down
    Main (I believe there's a concrete barrier that prevents or hinders
    access to the freeway to avoid traffic congestion with Elm).

    http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/route.htm

    The suggestion that the conspiracy could not have shot Kennedy along
    any other motorcade route just further tortures the plausibility of
    the various conspiracy theories. They could doctor the autopsy
    photos, plant evidence, hire patsies, coordinate multiple gunmen who
    all had to fire within seconds of each other yet if the motorcade
    doesn't go down Elm they're screwed?

    You be the judge.

    >While some of the Dealey Plaza celebrities may be totally nuts, there
    >are still many contradictions and uncertainties as to the number of
    >shooters, the direction of the shots and the number of shots fired. This
    >is the point that Oliver Stone is making when he says that there are 150
    >contradictions (for example) to the Warren Report. If we subtract the
    >Grassy Knoll testimony, we still have 149 contradictions. That
    >incredible Magic Bullet is a good one:


    There's an astonishing level of agreement as to the number of shots
    fired--most people who were there said "three". And of course one has
    to make some allowance for the vagaries of eyewitness testimony.

    Just read McAdams' site. Plenty of questions, plenty of answers.
     
    Steve Hanson, Nov 18, 2003
    #4
  5. If you believe Oswald did it, then you believe in the tooth fairy. Anyone
    here want to know the REAL truth? Don't believe this lone gunman/single
    bullet theory nonsense, go out and do some serious reading on the subject.

    Check out books by Jim Marrs, Dr. Cyril Wecht, Harold Greenberg and William
    Turner among many others. A two-bit loser like Oswald pulling off shots like
    that? Not to mention the fact that his marine buddies said he was a lousy
    shot.
    Besides, guys that defected to the U.S.S.R in the early sixties, didn't come
    back to the good ol' U.S.A to do as they please, they would have been hounded
    by Hoover's boys and watched 24/7.

    I could go on and on, but Steve, don't insult our intelligence with your
    tales from fantasyland.

    Steve Hanson wrote:

    > Scot Gardner wrote in <20031117105010.907$>:
    >
    > >The main argument against a single assassin operating from the 6th floor
    > >of the Book Depository building is that the best shot was missed when
    > >the Presidential Motorcade turned right off of Main Street and proceeded
    > >north on Houston Street. On Houston Street, the motorcade would have
    > >been moving very slowly in order to make the awkward left turn onto Elm
    > >Street. With the motorcade moving at 5 miles per hour on Houston Street,
    > >a lone gunman in the Book Depository would have the best shot as the
    > >motorcade would have been proceeding toward him.

    >
    > If this is the best argument against a single assassin then it's also
    > the best argument against anything happening anywhere. People are
    > unpredictable. Oswald may have felt uncomfortable shooting the
    > motorcade as it approached as opposed to when it was (slowly) driving
    > past--it can seem easier to track a target that is moving away from
    > you. For that matter, why didn't the conspiracy shoot him at that
    > point (during the turn)? Why wasn't the trigger man in the Book
    > Depository? They so beautifully arranged everything else including
    > crowd diversions.
    >
    > Oswald was a pretty random character if you read a good biography of
    > him. Nearly illiterate, obsessed with fantasies of playing some major
    > role in communist society, a total loser who evidently took potshots
    > at a right-wing general prior to the assassination. I don't think you
    > could explain many of his actions in life on the basis of strictly
    > rational behavior. Maybe he just hesitated then shot while he still
    > had a chance.
    >
    > >Here is another link in the conspiracy theory chain: Why did the
    > >motorcade slow down to negotiate the turn off Main Street onto Houston
    > >Street and then make another slow turn onto Elm Street? The logical and
    > >much safer route would have been to proceed directly down Main Street to
    > >the underpass and then move right over Elm Street and onto the Stemmons
    > >Freeway. (You have been there. Is it possible, in spite of the signs
    > >saying not to merge to the right across Elm Street, to get onto the
    > >Stemmons Freeway from Main Street?)

    >
    > The whole point of a motorcade is to let people see the president, not
    > get him onto Stemmons Freeway like a bat-out-of-hell yuppie during
    > rush hour. The site you linked to contains a thorough discussion of
    > this issue and specifically discusses why they didn't just drive down
    > Main (I believe there's a concrete barrier that prevents or hinders
    > access to the freeway to avoid traffic congestion with Elm).
    >
    > http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/route.htm
    >
    > The suggestion that the conspiracy could not have shot Kennedy along
    > any other motorcade route just further tortures the plausibility of
    > the various conspiracy theories. They could doctor the autopsy
    > photos, plant evidence, hire patsies, coordinate multiple gunmen who
    > all had to fire within seconds of each other yet if the motorcade
    > doesn't go down Elm they're screwed?
    >
    > You be the judge.
    >
    > >While some of the Dealey Plaza celebrities may be totally nuts, there
    > >are still many contradictions and uncertainties as to the number of
    > >shooters, the direction of the shots and the number of shots fired. This
    > >is the point that Oliver Stone is making when he says that there are 150
    > >contradictions (for example) to the Warren Report. If we subtract the
    > >Grassy Knoll testimony, we still have 149 contradictions. That
    > >incredible Magic Bullet is a good one:

    >
    > There's an astonishing level of agreement as to the number of shots
    > fired--most people who were there said "three". And of course one has
    > to make some allowance for the vagaries of eyewitness testimony.
    >
    > Just read McAdams' site. Plenty of questions, plenty of answers.
     
    Jim Ignatowski, Nov 18, 2003
    #5
  6. Scot Gardner

    Eric R. Guest

    "Scot Gardner" <> wrote in message

    > <<People will believe almost anything.>>


    No one wants to believe that their beloved King of Camelot could be
    taken down by a mere lone nutcase with a rifle. They need to believe
    that it took some huge conspiricy to take down someone so "great."

    Of course, in actuality, he wasn't so great. And a lone nutcase can
    take down just about anyone if they really want to.

    -Eric
     
    Eric R., Nov 18, 2003
    #6
  7. Jim Ignatowski wrote:

    > If you believe Oswald did it, then you believe in the tooth fairy. Anyone
    > here want to know the REAL truth? Don't believe this lone gunman/single
    > bullet theory nonsense, go out and do some serious reading on the subject.
    >

    I did. Gerald Posner's Case Closed was an excellent examination of all
    the nut-job looney tunes conspiracy theories out there. It debunks each
    of them quite nicely and convinced me that Oswald acted alone.
     
    Tallulah Blanket, Nov 18, 2003
    #7
  8. Scot Gardner

    Steve Hanson Guest

    Jim Ignatowski wrote in <>:

    >If you believe Oswald did it, then you believe in the tooth fairy. Anyone
    >here want to know the REAL truth? Don't believe this lone gunman/single
    >bullet theory nonsense, go out and do some serious reading on the subject.
    >
    >Check out books by Jim Marrs, Dr. Cyril Wecht, Harold Greenberg and William
    >Turner among many others. A two-bit loser like Oswald pulling off shots like
    >that? Not to mention the fact that his marine buddies said he was a lousy
    >shot.
    >Besides, guys that defected to the U.S.S.R in the early sixties, didn't come
    >back to the good ol' U.S.A to do as they please, they would have been hounded
    >by Hoover's boys and watched 24/7.
    >
    >I could go on and on, but Steve, don't insult our intelligence with your
    >tales from fantasyland.


    Really insightful comments there on the motorcade route. Thanks.

    >Steve Hanson wrote:
    >
    >> Scot Gardner wrote in <20031117105010.907$>:
    >>
    >> >The main argument against a single assassin operating from the 6th floor
    >> >of the Book Depository building is that the best shot was missed when
    >> >the Presidential Motorcade turned right off of Main Street and proceeded
    >> >north on Houston Street. On Houston Street, the motorcade would have
    >> >been moving very slowly in order to make the awkward left turn onto Elm
    >> >Street. With the motorcade moving at 5 miles per hour on Houston Street,
    >> >a lone gunman in the Book Depository would have the best shot as the
    >> >motorcade would have been proceeding toward him.

    >>
    >> If this is the best argument against a single assassin then it's also
    >> the best argument against anything happening anywhere. People are
    >> unpredictable. Oswald may have felt uncomfortable shooting the
    >> motorcade as it approached as opposed to when it was (slowly) driving
    >> past--it can seem easier to track a target that is moving away from
    >> you. For that matter, why didn't the conspiracy shoot him at that
    >> point (during the turn)? Why wasn't the trigger man in the Book
    >> Depository? They so beautifully arranged everything else including
    >> crowd diversions.
    >>
    >> Oswald was a pretty random character if you read a good biography of
    >> him. Nearly illiterate, obsessed with fantasies of playing some major
    >> role in communist society, a total loser who evidently took potshots
    >> at a right-wing general prior to the assassination. I don't think you
    >> could explain many of his actions in life on the basis of strictly
    >> rational behavior. Maybe he just hesitated then shot while he still
    >> had a chance.
    >>
    >> >Here is another link in the conspiracy theory chain: Why did the
    >> >motorcade slow down to negotiate the turn off Main Street onto Houston
    >> >Street and then make another slow turn onto Elm Street? The logical and
    >> >much safer route would have been to proceed directly down Main Street to
    >> >the underpass and then move right over Elm Street and onto the Stemmons
    >> >Freeway. (You have been there. Is it possible, in spite of the signs
    >> >saying not to merge to the right across Elm Street, to get onto the
    >> >Stemmons Freeway from Main Street?)

    >>
    >> The whole point of a motorcade is to let people see the president, not
    >> get him onto Stemmons Freeway like a bat-out-of-hell yuppie during
    >> rush hour. The site you linked to contains a thorough discussion of
    >> this issue and specifically discusses why they didn't just drive down
    >> Main (I believe there's a concrete barrier that prevents or hinders
    >> access to the freeway to avoid traffic congestion with Elm).
    >>
    >> http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/route.htm
    >>
    >> The suggestion that the conspiracy could not have shot Kennedy along
    >> any other motorcade route just further tortures the plausibility of
    >> the various conspiracy theories. They could doctor the autopsy
    >> photos, plant evidence, hire patsies, coordinate multiple gunmen who
    >> all had to fire within seconds of each other yet if the motorcade
    >> doesn't go down Elm they're screwed?
    >>
    >> You be the judge.
    >>
    >> >While some of the Dealey Plaza celebrities may be totally nuts, there
    >> >are still many contradictions and uncertainties as to the number of
    >> >shooters, the direction of the shots and the number of shots fired. This
    >> >is the point that Oliver Stone is making when he says that there are 150
    >> >contradictions (for example) to the Warren Report. If we subtract the
    >> >Grassy Knoll testimony, we still have 149 contradictions. That
    >> >incredible Magic Bullet is a good one:

    >>
    >> There's an astonishing level of agreement as to the number of shots
    >> fired--most people who were there said "three". And of course one has
    >> to make some allowance for the vagaries of eyewitness testimony.
    >>
    >> Just read McAdams' site. Plenty of questions, plenty of answers.
     
    Steve Hanson, Nov 19, 2003
    #8
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