JADE

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by John Doe, Dec 11, 2003.

  1. John Doe

    John Doe Guest

    I know this question has already been posted a while ago since I saw a
    couple of threads about it on Google - I also read some messages off
    their own groups server - but are some of you are using Jade ? What do
    you think of it ?

    I don't know it, but have taken a quick look this afternoon,
    downloaded the runtime and ide, as well as read parts of its online
    framework documentation.

    The good point is definitely the object model/database abstraction
    level, which (apparently) makes the whole thing appear as one unique
    versatile thing. Hmmm maybe not very easy to perform sql queries
    though, or is there an equivalent ?

    I would also like to know if people/companies use it for applications
    a bit more graphical (I saw the Port Otago case study was quite
    visual) I mean anything that is not 100% pure database stuff. Is Jade
    finally another WinDev, Powerbuilder or sophisticated FoxPro with just
    an original concept for the database side ? I found the UI part really
    poor, I didn't see any powerful DataGrid-like component or anything
    really easing the access to relational and/or hierarchical data.

    The whole framework seems to be exposed through COM too. Is this
    really useful since Jade is above all completely proprietary (IDE,
    language, debugger) ?

    Any opinions about it are welcome.
     
    John Doe, Dec 11, 2003
    #1
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  2. The Gallagher Group aka Cardax dumped jade some time back.



    "John Doe" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > I know this question has already been posted a while ago since I saw a
    > couple of threads about it on Google - I also read some messages off
    > their own groups server - but are some of you are using Jade ? What do
    > you think of it ?
    >
    > I don't know it, but have taken a quick look this afternoon,
    > downloaded the runtime and ide, as well as read parts of its online
    > framework documentation.
    >
    > The good point is definitely the object model/database abstraction
    > level, which (apparently) makes the whole thing appear as one unique
    > versatile thing. Hmmm maybe not very easy to perform sql queries
    > though, or is there an equivalent ?
    >
    > I would also like to know if people/companies use it for applications
    > a bit more graphical (I saw the Port Otago case study was quite
    > visual) I mean anything that is not 100% pure database stuff. Is Jade
    > finally another WinDev, Powerbuilder or sophisticated FoxPro with just
    > an original concept for the database side ? I found the UI part really
    > poor, I didn't see any powerful DataGrid-like component or anything
    > really easing the access to relational and/or hierarchical data.
    >
    > The whole framework seems to be exposed through COM too. Is this
    > really useful since Jade is above all completely proprietary (IDE,
    > language, debugger) ?
    >
    > Any opinions about it are welcome.
     
    nash the slash, Dec 11, 2003
    #2
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  3. John Doe

    Allistar Guest

    John Doe wrote:

    > I know this question has already been posted a while ago since I saw a
    > couple of threads about it on Google - I also read some messages off
    > their own groups server - but are some of you are using Jade ? What do
    > you think of it ?


    I have been contracting as a JADE developer/consultant for the past 7 years.
    I would recommend it for any database type application without question.

    > I don't know it, but have taken a quick look this afternoon,
    > downloaded the runtime and ide, as well as read parts of its online
    > framework documentation.
    >
    > The good point is definitely the object model/database abstraction
    > level, which (apparently) makes the whole thing appear as one unique
    > versatile thing. Hmmm maybe not very easy to perform sql queries
    > though, or is there an equivalent ?


    When you use JADE you need to stop thinking in a relational sense. JADE is
    fully object oriented and as such sql doesn't exist. (Having said that you
    can get JADE to present the data model as as relational database you you
    can let legacy applications extract data through an ODBC interface).

    > I would also like to know if people/companies use it for applications
    > a bit more graphical (I saw the Port Otago case study was quite
    > visual) I mean anything that is not 100% pure database stuff. Is Jade
    > finally another WinDev, Powerbuilder or sophisticated FoxPro with just
    > an original concept for the database side ? I found the UI part really
    > poor, I didn't see any powerful DataGrid-like component or anything
    > really easing the access to relational and/or hierarchical data.


    You can develop quite graphical applications in it. We have a few that
    utilise a graphical interface representing real world objects that can be
    dragged and dropped around the screen. I wouldn't use it for anything low
    level or time critical though, like device drivers etc.

    There is a Table class which (if I am not mistaken) is what you would call a
    "data grid". A pure JADE application would not need to access relational
    data (as it is a pure OO database). Having said that if it needs to it can.

    > The whole framework seems to be exposed through COM too. Is this
    > really useful since Jade is above all completely proprietary (IDE,
    > language, debugger) ?


    You have complete access to the underlying API, so applications can be
    developed in C++ to access the database directly withouth going through the
    interpreter.

    > Any opinions about it are welcome.


    It is overall very impressive.

    Allistar.
     
    Allistar, Dec 11, 2003
    #3
  4. John Doe

    Jamie Sugrue Guest

    I've only had a play with it too. So you can take this with a grain of salt
    if you like....

    I have a couple of mates you use JADE professionally, one hates it the other
    quite likes it.

    I have seen some pretty impressive UI stuff done in Jade. They have a
    separate app for creating whizzy UI -- cant remember the name off the top of
    my head. The bit I liked was the OO database and I liked the language, but I
    use Delphi alot so it was familiar to me.

    Personally, if I wanted a fully OO framework with OO database I would use
    Java with something like Hibernate, otherwise I'll stick to Delphi.


    "John Doe" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > I know this question has already been posted a while ago since I saw a
    > couple of threads about it on Google - I also read some messages off
    > their own groups server - but are some of you are using Jade ? What do
    > you think of it ?
    >
    > I don't know it, but have taken a quick look this afternoon,
    > downloaded the runtime and ide, as well as read parts of its online
    > framework documentation.
    >
    > The good point is definitely the object model/database abstraction
    > level, which (apparently) makes the whole thing appear as one unique
    > versatile thing. Hmmm maybe not very easy to perform sql queries
    > though, or is there an equivalent ?
    >
    > I would also like to know if people/companies use it for applications
    > a bit more graphical (I saw the Port Otago case study was quite
    > visual) I mean anything that is not 100% pure database stuff. Is Jade
    > finally another WinDev, Powerbuilder or sophisticated FoxPro with just
    > an original concept for the database side ? I found the UI part really
    > poor, I didn't see any powerful DataGrid-like component or anything
    > really easing the access to relational and/or hierarchical data.
    >
    > The whole framework seems to be exposed through COM too. Is this
    > really useful since Jade is above all completely proprietary (IDE,
    > language, debugger) ?
    >
    > Any opinions about it are welcome.
     
    Jamie Sugrue, Dec 11, 2003
    #4
  5. John Doe

    John Doe Guest

    Allistar <> wrote in message news:<aG4Cb.12581$>...
    > John Doe wrote:
    >
    > > I know this question has already been posted a while ago since I saw a
    > > couple of threads about it on Google - I also read some messages off
    > > their own groups server - but are some of you are using Jade ? What do
    > > you think of it ?

    >
    > I have been contracting as a JADE developer/consultant for the past 7 years.
    > I would recommend it for any database type application without question.


    It depends on how we can define what a database is (see below).

    > > I don't know it, but have taken a quick look this afternoon,
    > > downloaded the runtime and ide, as well as read parts of its online
    > > framework documentation.
    > >
    > > The good point is definitely the object model/database abstraction
    > > level, which (apparently) makes the whole thing appear as one unique
    > > versatile thing. Hmmm maybe not very easy to perform sql queries
    > > though, or is there an equivalent ?

    >
    > When you use JADE you need to stop thinking in a relational sense. JADE is
    > fully object oriented and as such sql doesn't exist. (Having said that you
    > can get JADE to present the data model as as relational database you you
    > can let legacy applications extract data through an ODBC interface).


    Well, does JADE then have a built-in language to make queries ? SQL is
    quite powerful to retrieve data meeting a set of conditions, as XPath
    is for XML documents, if you wish. For XML, walking down the node
    hierarchy with the DOM would be quite tedious, unreadable and
    inefficient. Now, what's JADE approach ? I guess accessing the data by
    other means than raw code is possible, isn't it ?

    > > I would also like to know if people/companies use it for applications
    > > a bit more graphical (I saw the Port Otago case study was quite
    > > visual) I mean anything that is not 100% pure database stuff. Is Jade
    > > finally another WinDev, Powerbuilder or sophisticated FoxPro with just
    > > an original concept for the database side ? I found the UI part really
    > > poor, I didn't see any powerful DataGrid-like component or anything
    > > really easing the access to relational and/or hierarchical data.

    >
    > You can develop quite graphical applications in it. We have a few that
    > utilise a graphical interface representing real world objects that can be
    > dragged and dropped around the screen. I wouldn't use it for anything low
    > level or time critical though, like device drivers etc.


    Writing a device driver with JADE would be quite hard. First you would
    have to map driver entry points to JADE's interpreted language, not
    very easy. Not to mention certain device drivers have a reduced set of
    APIs available, you would have to have a pretty good control over how
    JADE's execution engine behaves. But that's another question.

    > There is a Table class which (if I am not mistaken) is what you would call a
    > "data grid". A pure JADE application would not need to access relational
    > data (as it is a pure OO database). Having said that if it needs to it can.


    Once again does JADE provide an alternate approach to make use of its
    complexily organised, nested, hierarchical data (I followed one or two
    tutorials already) ? I understand the point that JADE is different,
    but how good is this difference ? If you could give me an example,
    that would be great.

    Sounds quite weird to me that you do not seem to use the Table class
    very often, as I would use a Datawindow object from Powerbuilder, a
    hierarchical flexgrid from VB for example, or thousands of third-party
    components for whatever language, designed to ease the presentation of
    hierarchical data.
     
    John Doe, Dec 13, 2003
    #5
  6. John Doe

    AD. Guest

    On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 20:42:51 -0800, John Doe wrote:

    >> When you use JADE you need to stop thinking in a relational sense. JADE
    >> is fully object oriented and as such sql doesn't exist. (Having said
    >> that you can get JADE to present the data model as as relational
    >> database you you can let legacy applications extract data through an
    >> ODBC interface).

    >
    > Well, does JADE then have a built-in language to make queries ? SQL is
    > quite powerful to retrieve data meeting a set of conditions, as XPath is
    > for XML documents, if you wish. For XML, walking down the node hierarchy
    > with the DOM would be quite tedious, unreadable and inefficient. Now,
    > what's JADE approach ? I guess accessing the data by other means than raw
    > code is possible, isn't it ?


    It's an object database isn't it? SQL is designed for relational data.

    I don't have much experience with object databases, but did play around
    with CAs Jasmine a few years ago. While it was a typical crap buggy CA
    application, it was eye opening in terms of potential. It had an Object
    Query Language that reminded me of Python with respect to data types eg
    lists, tuples (and maybe dictionaries?) etc.

    I have heard that one reason object databases haven't caught on is that
    the schemas end up too tightly coupled to the applications data model.
    With relational databases, there is a layer of abstraction that allows
    more flexibility for multiple applications to access the same data.

    If you want to play around with object database ideas and don't mind
    Python, you could always try the open source ZopeDB that funnily enough
    comes with Zope. I have no idea how it would work outside Zope though.

    Cheers
    Anton
     
    AD., Dec 14, 2003
    #6
  7. John Doe

    madknoxie Guest

    In article <>,
    "AD." <> wrote:

    > I don't have much experience with object databases, but did play around
    > with CAs Jasmine a few years ago. While it was a typical crap buggy CA
    > application, it was eye opening in terms of potential.


    What sort of potential do you think object databases hold? I've never
    really been able to get my head around it, why it would be better. I
    guess my thought process has been corrupted by the relational model and
    I can't see past that (yet).

    --
    madknoxie
    $35 .nz domain names: http://www.ivision.co.nz/
     
    madknoxie, Dec 14, 2003
    #7
  8. John Doe

    Mainlander Guest

    In article <>,
    says...
    > On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 20:42:51 -0800, John Doe wrote:
    >
    > >> When you use JADE you need to stop thinking in a relational sense. JADE
    > >> is fully object oriented and as such sql doesn't exist. (Having said
    > >> that you can get JADE to present the data model as as relational
    > >> database you you can let legacy applications extract data through an
    > >> ODBC interface).

    > >
    > > Well, does JADE then have a built-in language to make queries ? SQL is
    > > quite powerful to retrieve data meeting a set of conditions, as XPath is
    > > for XML documents, if you wish. For XML, walking down the node hierarchy
    > > with the DOM would be quite tedious, unreadable and inefficient. Now,
    > > what's JADE approach ? I guess accessing the data by other means than raw
    > > code is possible, isn't it ?

    >
    > It's an object database isn't it? SQL is designed for relational data.


    In an OO database you are not playing with a result set, the fields in
    each record are object instances that can be referenced and used just as
    variables are used in normal programming.

    JADE provides all the capabilities necessary to retrieve the particular
    subset of data you want and to navigate within that subset.

    --
    Full featured open source Win32 newsreader - Gravity 2.70
    http://sourceforge.net/projects/mpgravity/
     
    Mainlander, Dec 15, 2003
    #8
  9. John Doe

    Mainlander Guest

    In article <>,
    says...
    > In article <>,
    > "AD." <> wrote:
    >
    > > I don't have much experience with object databases, but did play around
    > > with CAs Jasmine a few years ago. While it was a typical crap buggy CA
    > > application, it was eye opening in terms of potential.

    >
    > What sort of potential do you think object databases hold? I've never
    > really been able to get my head around it, why it would be better. I
    > guess my thought process has been corrupted by the relational model and
    > I can't see past that (yet).


    The ability to do the usual things you can do with OO - abstraction,
    encapsulation, polymorphism, inheritance and so on.

    In OO programming, the programmer may already use OO extensively to
    represent data, to interface this to a relational database requires
    extensive conversion code. If you're working with an OO database there is
    no need for such code.

    --
    Full featured open source Win32 newsreader - Gravity 2.70
    http://sourceforge.net/projects/mpgravity/
     
    Mainlander, Dec 15, 2003
    #9
  10. John Doe

    Allistar Guest

    John Doe wrote:

    > Allistar <> wrote in message
    > news:<aG4Cb.12581$>...
    >> John Doe wrote:
    >>
    >> > I know this question has already been posted a while ago since I saw a
    >> > couple of threads about it on Google - I also read some messages off
    >> > their own groups server - but are some of you are using Jade ? What do
    >> > you think of it ?

    >>
    >> I have been contracting as a JADE developer/consultant for the past 7
    >> years. I would recommend it for any database type application without
    >> question.

    >
    > It depends on how we can define what a database is (see below).
    >
    >> > I don't know it, but have taken a quick look this afternoon,
    >> > downloaded the runtime and ide, as well as read parts of its online
    >> > framework documentation.
    >> >
    >> > The good point is definitely the object model/database abstraction
    >> > level, which (apparently) makes the whole thing appear as one unique
    >> > versatile thing. Hmmm maybe not very easy to perform sql queries
    >> > though, or is there an equivalent ?

    >>
    >> When you use JADE you need to stop thinking in a relational sense. JADE
    >> is fully object oriented and as such sql doesn't exist. (Having said that
    >> you can get JADE to present the data model as as relational database you
    >> you can let legacy applications extract data through an ODBC interface).

    >
    > Well, does JADE then have a built-in language to make queries ? SQL is
    > quite powerful to retrieve data meeting a set of conditions, as XPath
    > is for XML documents, if you wish. For XML, walking down the node
    > hierarchy with the DOM would be quite tedious, unreadable and
    > inefficient. Now, what's JADE approach ? I guess accessing the data by
    > other means than raw code is possible, isn't it ?


    JADE provides the ability to query and process data, as another poster
    pointed our objects are treated as variables in code - not as a RecordSet.
    I.e. If you really need to map the object database to a relational one you
    can provide a relational view of the OO DB which can be accessed using
    ODBC.

    >> There is a Table class which (if I am not mistaken) is what you would
    >> call a "data grid". A pure JADE application would not need to access
    >> relational data (as it is a pure OO database). Having said that if it
    >> needs to it can.

    >
    > Once again does JADE provide an alternate approach to make use of its
    > complexily organised, nested, hierarchical data (I followed one or two
    > tutorials already) ?


    Alternate to what?

    > I understand the point that JADE is different,
    > but how good is this difference ? If you could give me an example,
    > that would be great.


    One powerful difference is there is no difference fom a development poinf of
    view between a persistent object (i.e. one in the database) and a transient
    one (i.e. one with a local, normally short liftime). An object is an object
    - regardless of where it lives. You get all of the standard benefits of an
    OO language, such a polymorphism, enscapsulation etc.

    Another advantage is that you can deploy thin or fat clients without
    changing your application. A well written application will run over a 36k
    modem, will the full power of the Windows (and soon to be Linux) gui.

    > Sounds quite weird to me that you do not seem to use the Table class
    > very often, as I would use a Datawindow object from Powerbuilder, a
    > hierarchical flexgrid from VB for example, or thousands of third-party
    > components for whatever language, designed to ease the presentation of
    > hierarchical data.


    I'm not sure where you get the idea that I don't use the Table class very
    often. I take advantage of it quute a bit on the development I have done.

    Allistar.
     
    Allistar, Dec 19, 2003
    #10
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