ISP code of practice draft

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by Peter, Feb 5, 2009.

  1. Peter

    Peter Guest

    Draft issued for public submissions ...
    http://www.tcf.org.nz/content/d543212c-ab29-42dc-8fa5-de14710785f6.html

    This is to cover s92a of the new copyright law, which requires internet
    service to be cut off on accusation (not proof) of copyright infringement.


    Sounds like an effective way of exerting downward pressure on the
    NZ internet industry. Webmasters would be well advised to move
    hosting off shore. ISP costs will increase, creating a disadvantage
    to any internet based businesses trying to operate from NZ.

    And does anyone really think this will affect the volume of
    copyright infringement?



    Peter
    Peter, Feb 5, 2009
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. Peter

    ~misfit~ Guest

    Somewhere on teh intarwebs Peter wrote:
    > Draft issued for public submissions ...
    > http://www.tcf.org.nz/content/d543212c-ab29-42dc-8fa5-de14710785f6.html
    >
    > This is to cover s92a of the new copyright law, which requires
    > internet service to be cut off on accusation (not proof) of copyright
    > infringement.
    >
    >
    > Sounds like an effective way of exerting downward pressure on the
    > NZ internet industry. Webmasters would be well advised to move
    > hosting off shore. ISP costs will increase, creating a disadvantage
    > to any internet based businesses trying to operate from NZ.
    >
    > And does anyone really think this will affect the volume of
    > copyright infringement?


    Note that Actrix isn't on that list. For their view:

    <http://www.actrix.co.nz/whatsnew.php?newsid=95>
    --
    Shaun.

    "Build a man a fire, and he`ll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and
    he`ll be warm for the rest of his life." Terry Pratchett, Jingo
    ~misfit~, Feb 5, 2009
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Peter

    oneofus Guest

    Peter wrote:
    > Draft issued for public submissions ...
    > http://www.tcf.org.nz/content/d543212c-ab29-42dc-8fa5-de14710785f6.html
    >
    > This is to cover s92a of the new copyright law, which requires internet
    > service to be cut off on accusation (not proof) of copyright infringement.
    >
    >
    > Sounds like an effective way of exerting downward pressure on the
    > NZ internet industry. Webmasters would be well advised to move
    > hosting off shore. ISP costs will increase, creating a disadvantage
    > to any internet based businesses trying to operate from NZ.
    >
    > And does anyone really think this will affect the volume of
    > copyright infringement?
    >
    >
    >
    > Peter
    >


    What I would like to know is why the APRA and RIANZ fuckwits think they
    have a dog in this race ?
    Music is bombing, they should be doing anything they can to get
    listeners any way they can, no Kiwi artist has a file sharing problem,
    they should be so lucky.
    Those poor Kiwi musicians are being paraded as pathetic starving victims
    when the legislation is aimed at "you know who you are" downloading the
    latest series of Lost, Heroes, 24, House, Scrubs, CSI, Body of Lies,
    Outlander
    oneofus, Feb 5, 2009
    #3
  4. Peter

    oneofus Guest

    Puddle wrote:
    > oneofus wrote:
    >> Peter wrote:
    >>> Draft issued for public submissions ...
    >>> http://www.tcf.org.nz/content/d543212c-ab29-42dc-8fa5-de14710785f6.html
    >>>
    >>> This is to cover s92a of the new copyright law, which requires
    >>> internet service to be cut off on accusation (not proof) of copyright
    >>> infringement.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> Sounds like an effective way of exerting downward pressure on the NZ
    >>> internet industry. Webmasters would be well advised to move hosting
    >>> off shore. ISP costs will increase, creating a disadvantage to any
    >>> internet based businesses trying to operate from NZ.
    >>>
    >>> And does anyone really think this will affect the volume of copyright
    >>> infringement?
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> Peter
    >>>

    >>
    >> What I would like to know is why the APRA and RIANZ fuckwits think
    >> they have a dog in this race ?
    >> Music is bombing, they should be doing anything they can to get
    >> listeners any way they can, no Kiwi artist has a file sharing problem,
    >> they should be so lucky.
    >> Those poor Kiwi musicians are being paraded as pathetic starving
    >> victims when the legislation is aimed at "you know who you are"
    >> downloading the latest series of Lost, Heroes, 24, House, Scrubs, CSI,
    >> Body of Lies, Outlander

    >
    > I thought TV programs weren't really frowned upon, it was more the
    > movies that were the worry? or at least the target..


    I read a study on cease and desist notices issued to bittorrent
    infringers and most were for the likes of Lost and Heroes.
    There is a fair amount of real frowning going on and of course they are
    just as copyright as anything else copyright.
    The difference is that the copyright owners are still making money off
    them, so they can afford pitbull lawyers.
    oneofus, Feb 5, 2009
    #4
  5. Peter

    PeeCee Guest

    "Peter" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    > Draft issued for public submissions ...
    > http://www.tcf.org.nz/content/d543212c-ab29-42dc-8fa5-de14710785f6.html
    >
    > This is to cover s92a of the new copyright law, which requires internet
    > service to be cut off on accusation (not proof) of copyright infringement.
    >
    >
    > Sounds like an effective way of exerting downward pressure on the
    > NZ internet industry. Webmasters would be well advised to move
    > hosting off shore. ISP costs will increase, creating a disadvantage
    > to any internet based businesses trying to operate from NZ.
    >
    > And does anyone really think this will affect the volume of
    > copyright infringement?
    >
    >
    >
    > Peter
    >




    I'm no legal eagle but it appears the TCF is trying to shift the onus back
    to where it belongs i.e. the Copyright Holders.

    However:
    *I don't like the alternative "Reworded Strawman Counter-Notice Procedure"
    as it takes the plausably impartial ISP out of the picture.
    * The concept of 'Innocence until proven guilty' is not clearly spelled out.
    * No onus on the Copyright Holder to provide the product at a reasonable
    cost and access. Though I think this may be more something for the
    legislation rather than the TCF but they could still consider it.
    * Emails are acceptable notice. Don't know about you but I will 'not' accept
    anything other than a signed letter as 'Official'
    Imagine the effects of a spoof email campaign on some poor Mum & Dad that
    they're going to have the MIA banging on their door.

    Off to type a draft submission.

    Best
    Paul.
    PeeCee, Feb 5, 2009
    #5
  6. Peter

    Richard Guest

    PeeCee wrote:
    > I'm no legal eagle but it appears the TCF is trying to shift the onus
    > back to where it belongs i.e. the Copyright Holders.
    >
    > However:
    > *I don't like the alternative "Reworded Strawman Counter-Notice
    > Procedure" as it takes the plausably impartial ISP out of the picture.
    > * The concept of 'Innocence until proven guilty' is not clearly spelled
    > out.
    > * No onus on the Copyright Holder to provide the product at a reasonable
    > cost and access. Though I think this may be more something for the
    > legislation rather than the TCF but they could still consider it.
    > * Emails are acceptable notice. Don't know about you but I will 'not'
    > accept anything other than a signed letter as 'Official'
    > Imagine the effects of a spoof email campaign on some poor Mum & Dad
    > that they're going to have the MIA banging on their door.


    They are signed emails, so no worries about spoofs unless they let their
    private keys get out.
    Richard, Feb 5, 2009
    #6
  7. Peter

    PeeCee Guest

    "Richard" <> wrote in message
    news:gmefs9$cr1$...
    > PeeCee wrote:
    >> I'm no legal eagle but it appears the TCF is trying to shift the onus
    >> back to where it belongs i.e. the Copyright Holders.
    >>
    >> However:
    >> *I don't like the alternative "Reworded Strawman Counter-Notice
    >> Procedure" as it takes the plausably impartial ISP out of the picture.
    >> * The concept of 'Innocence until proven guilty' is not clearly spelled
    >> out.
    >> * No onus on the Copyright Holder to provide the product at a reasonable
    >> cost and access. Though I think this may be more something for the
    >> legislation rather than the TCF but they could still consider it.
    >> * Emails are acceptable notice. Don't know about you but I will 'not'
    >> accept anything other than a signed letter as 'Official'
    >> Imagine the effects of a spoof email campaign on some poor Mum & Dad that
    >> they're going to have the MIA banging on their door.

    >
    > They are signed emails, so no worries about spoofs unless they let their
    > private keys get out.




    Fair enough as far as it goes, but would a target have the sophistication to
    detect spoof's.
    One only has to look at how successfull Malware writers are with their
    Social Engineering tricks.

    Be that as it may, I have long ago learnt a peice of paper with a signature
    on it will allways win.
    It gives the legal profession something black & white to work with rather
    than he said ,she said, they emailed, I didn't get that SMS....

    We live in interesting times.

    Best
    Paul.
    PeeCee, Feb 5, 2009
    #7
  8. Peter

    PeeCee Guest

    "Peter" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    > Draft issued for public submissions ...
    > http://www.tcf.org.nz/content/d543212c-ab29-42dc-8fa5-de14710785f6.html
    >
    > This is to cover s92a of the new copyright law, which requires internet
    > service to be cut off on accusation (not proof) of copyright infringement.
    >
    >
    > Sounds like an effective way of exerting downward pressure on the
    > NZ internet industry. Webmasters would be well advised to move
    > hosting off shore. ISP costs will increase, creating a disadvantage
    > to any internet based businesses trying to operate from NZ.
    >
    > And does anyone really think this will affect the volume of
    > copyright infringement?
    >
    >
    >
    > Peter
    >




    This article
    http://windowssecrets.com/2009/02/05/01-Watch-a-live-video-share-your-PC-with-CNN/?n=story1
    makes interesting reading.

    Paul.
    PeeCee, Feb 5, 2009
    #8
  9. Peter

    Richard Guest

    Bruce Sinclair wrote:

    >> They are signed emails, so no worries about spoofs unless they let their
    >> private keys get out.

    >
    > Yeah ... right :)
    > How many people would know how to validate that an email came from who it
    > said it did ? ... or to rephrase ... how often do people give "banks" who
    > email them passwords/credit card numbers ... ? :)



    Plenty of users do, but they are not professionals working at an ISP.

    And last I checked, banks dont sign their emails anyway so its not a
    valid comparison.
    Richard, Feb 8, 2009
    #9
  10. In article <gme19b$skd$>, oneofus <>
    wrote:
    >Peter wrote:
    >> Draft issued for public submissions ...
    >> http://www.tcf.org.nz/content/d543212c-ab29-42dc-8fa5-de14710785f6.html
    >>
    >> This is to cover s92a of the new copyright law, which requires internet
    >> service to be cut off on accusation (not proof) of copyright infringement.


    >> Sounds like an effective way of exerting downward pressure on the
    >> NZ internet industry. Webmasters would be well advised to move
    >> hosting off shore. ISP costs will increase, creating a disadvantage
    >> to any internet based businesses trying to operate from NZ.
    >>
    >> And does anyone really think this will affect the volume of
    >> copyright infringement?

    >
    >What I would like to know is why the APRA and RIANZ fuckwits think they
    >have a dog in this race ?
    >Music is bombing, they should be doing anything they can to get
    >listeners any way they can, no Kiwi artist has a file sharing problem,
    >they should be so lucky.
    >Those poor Kiwi musicians are being paraded as pathetic starving victims
    >when the legislation is aimed at "you know who you are" downloading the
    >latest series of Lost, Heroes, 24, House, Scrubs, CSI, Body of Lies,
    >Outlander


    ... and there is data suggesting that making music (particularly) available
    for download actually *helps* sales. The recording industry (particularly)
    regularly expounds about 'lost sales'. When questioned as to where these
    numbers come from, it becomes clear they are making them up. :)

    IMO, they should get nothing.
    And what about innocent until proven guilty ??
    Bruce Sinclair, Feb 9, 2009
    #10
  11. In article <gmefs9$cr1$>, Richard <>
    wrote:
    >PeeCee wrote:
    >> I'm no legal eagle but it appears the TCF is trying to shift the onus
    >> back to where it belongs i.e. the Copyright Holders.
    >> However:
    >> *I don't like the alternative "Reworded Strawman Counter-Notice
    >> Procedure" as it takes the plausably impartial ISP out of the picture.
    >> * The concept of 'Innocence until proven guilty' is not clearly spelled
    >> out.
    >> * No onus on the Copyright Holder to provide the product at a reasonable
    >> cost and access. Though I think this may be more something for the
    >> legislation rather than the TCF but they could still consider it.
    >> * Emails are acceptable notice. Don't know about you but I will 'not'
    >> accept anything other than a signed letter as 'Official'
    >> Imagine the effects of a spoof email campaign on some poor Mum & Dad
    >> that they're going to have the MIA banging on their door.

    >
    >They are signed emails, so no worries about spoofs unless they let their
    >private keys get out.


    Yeah ... right :)
    How many people would know how to validate that an email came from who it
    said it did ? ... or to rephrase ... how often do people give "banks" who
    email them passwords/credit card numbers ... ? :)
    Bruce Sinclair, Feb 9, 2009
    #11
  12. Peter

    Guest

    On Feb 5, 6:03 pm, Peter <> wrote:

    > And does anyone really think this will affect the volume of
    > copyright infringement?
    >
    > Peter

    I think the industry music,tv movies etc have to think a different
    path because i used to buy.
    Now I find that there is so much ready accesseable content radio tv
    sky streaming internet.
    I dont have time to read watch listen to all i can now.
    I have 2 teenages in the house if they want music sky or streaming
    music is there choice.
    they buy the compilation albums if they like enough of the songs on
    it, thats all.
    , Feb 9, 2009
    #12
  13. Peter

    PeeCee Guest

    "Richard" <> wrote in message
    news:gmnqd3$ehu$...
    > Bruce Sinclair wrote:
    >
    >>> They are signed emails, so no worries about spoofs unless they let their
    >>> private keys get out.

    >>
    >> Yeah ... right :)
    >> How many people would know how to validate that an email came from who it
    >> said it did ? ... or to rephrase ... how often do people give "banks" who
    >> email them passwords/credit card numbers ... ? :)

    >
    >
    > Plenty of users do, but they are not professionals working at an ISP.
    >
    > And last I checked, banks dont sign their emails anyway so its not a valid
    > comparison.



    Richard

    I think you've missed the point of my comment.
    The key explanation of it was :
    "Imagine the effects of a spoof email campaign on some poor Mum & Dad that
    they're going to have the MIA banging on their door."

    The thrust of my argument is that by making 'emails' an acceptable (read
    legal) means of communication then a person receiving an infringement notice
    from someone purporting to be from the MIA is unlikely to have the technical
    resources to determine if the email is legitimate or not.
    This opens the door for hate campaigns where technically unsophisticated
    people could be coerced into actions to their detriment.

    Sure the ISP techo's would be able to tell in short order if it was genuine
    or not, Joe Public can't.
    More to the point I would suggest there is 'no' effective easy to use
    mechanism in place to guarantee an email is from the supposed sender.
    (you would have to have a button on the email client that say's 'Check
    Authenticity' before it gets to a point where it is realistically useable)
    Ergo my point that the 'only' acceptable communication is a signed letter
    where the evidence is on the document that the signatory is actually the
    person issuing the document.

    Luddite? no just acceptance that modern technology brings it's own dangers
    and assumptions.
    To many technology savvy people are to ready to accept if it's on the screen
    then it must be for real.
    Sorry I don't buy that I've seen to many examples of how easy it is to
    misrepresent something, technology just makes it easier.

    Best
    Paul.
    PeeCee, Feb 9, 2009
    #13
  14. Peter

    PeeCee Guest

    <> wrote in message
    news:...
    On Feb 5, 6:03 pm, Peter <> wrote:

    > And does anyone really think this will affect the volume of
    > copyright infringement?
    >
    > Peter

    I think the industry music,tv movies etc have to think a different
    path because i used to buy.
    Now I find that there is so much ready accesseable content radio tv
    sky streaming internet.
    Imagine the effects of a spoof email campaign on some poor Mum & Dad that
    they're going to have the MIA banging on their door.I have 2 teenages in the
    house if they want music sky or streaming
    music is there choice.
    they buy the compilation albums if they like enough of the songs on
    it, thats all.





    <quote>
    Now I find that there is so much ready accesseable content radio tv sky
    streaming internet.
    </qote>

    Couldn't agree more.

    I think this is the real reason sales of media (Music, Video & TV) are on
    the downturn.
    Sure there is a significant amount of media, shall we say 'swapped' between
    people.
    But if the choice was made to have it for a fee or not have it at all, 99%
    of downloaders would not buy they'd just move on to some other form of
    entertainment.

    The ability to produce high quality entertainment in 'huge' numbers is so
    simple now that more media companies are competing for the same dwindling
    market.
    Media has been around long enough that 'already owned' product caters for a
    bigger and bigger portion of the listeners (viewers) needs.
    Wander through any Shopping Mall and the amount of media available is 'huge'
    CD's, DVD's Magazines, Books, TV's, MP3 players.
    But who do they sell to ?
    Not me, I've got most of what I want.

    20 years ago yes I would have scanned the racks of CD's and Video's for
    something to buy, nowdays I don't bother even at 'bargain' prices.
    I have racks of CD's, piles of DVD's, I've even stopped the kids giving me
    vouchers for Christmas.
    New content doesn't turn me on, I'm not saying it's crap (though many would)
    it just doesn't grab my attention.
    I don't need another copy of Beethoven's 5th, Raiders of the Lost Ark and
    the number of times I've watched a Video and though 'I've seen this story
    before'.
    Call it one of the downsides of aging but it has to be dam good to be
    different today.
    Besides when Sony tried putting a Rootkit on PC's I was one of the legions
    that forsake anything Sony, to this day I avoid that brand if I can.

    I reckon what we are seeing is the end of the natural growth of this market.
    In the periods following the two world wars there was a dearth of consumer
    product.
    In the case of the first worlld war the market did not reach saturation
    before war returned so the media companies were in a constant growth phase.
    The second world war was so much more destructive and widespread that it
    took even longer to 'catch up' with demand.
    Even if demand started to tail off, restocking with newer storage mechanisms
    and moving into developing markets allowed these media firms to keep the
    growth up.
    (eg record > Tape > CD, Film > Tape > DVD and developed countries to third
    world countries)
    Now after 60 + years of constant growth and I reckon the market has finally
    caught up with itself.

    The worlds changing.
    We no longer stand for the national anthem at the movies.
    Newspapers and magazines come with 'free' CD's.
    Computers compete with media not because they are in the same entertainment
    space but because the are in an attention space the media can't compete
    with.

    My thoughts for the day.

    Best to all
    Paul.
    PeeCee, Feb 9, 2009
    #14
  15. Peter

    ~misfit~ Guest

    Somewhere on teh intarwebs PeeCee wrote:
    > <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    > On Feb 5, 6:03 pm, Peter <> wrote:
    >
    >> And does anyone really think this will affect the volume of
    >> copyright infringement?
    >>
    >> Peter

    > I think the industry music,tv movies etc have to think a different
    > path because i used to buy.
    > Now I find that there is so much ready accesseable content radio tv
    > sky streaming internet.
    > Imagine the effects of a spoof email campaign on some poor Mum & Dad
    > that they're going to have the MIA banging on their door.I have 2
    > teenages in the house if they want music sky or streaming
    > music is there choice.
    > they buy the compilation albums if they like enough of the songs on
    > it, thats all.
    > <quote>
    > Now I find that there is so much ready accesseable content radio tv
    > sky streaming internet.
    > </qote>
    >
    > Couldn't agree more.
    >
    > I think this is the real reason sales of media (Music, Video & TV)
    > are on the downturn.
    > Sure there is a significant amount of media, shall we say 'swapped'
    > between people.
    > But if the choice was made to have it for a fee or not have it at
    > all, 99% of downloaders would not buy they'd just move on to some
    > other form of entertainment.
    >
    > The ability to produce high quality entertainment in 'huge' numbers
    > is so simple now that more media companies are competing for the same
    > dwindling market.
    > Media has been around long enough that 'already owned' product caters
    > for a bigger and bigger portion of the listeners (viewers) needs.
    > Wander through any Shopping Mall and the amount of media available is
    > 'huge' CD's, DVD's Magazines, Books, TV's, MP3 players.
    > But who do they sell to ?
    > Not me, I've got most of what I want.
    >
    > 20 years ago yes I would have scanned the racks of CD's and Video's
    > for something to buy, nowdays I don't bother even at 'bargain' prices.
    > I have racks of CD's, piles of DVD's, I've even stopped the kids
    > giving me vouchers for Christmas.
    > New content doesn't turn me on, I'm not saying it's crap (though many
    > would) it just doesn't grab my attention.
    > I don't need another copy of Beethoven's 5th, Raiders of the Lost Ark
    > and the number of times I've watched a Video and though 'I've seen
    > this story before'.
    > Call it one of the downsides of aging but it has to be dam good to be
    > different today.
    > Besides when Sony tried putting a Rootkit on PC's I was one of the
    > legions that forsake anything Sony, to this day I avoid that brand if
    > I can.
    > I reckon what we are seeing is the end of the natural growth of this
    > market. In the periods following the two world wars there was a
    > dearth of consumer product.
    > In the case of the first worlld war the market did not reach
    > saturation before war returned so the media companies were in a
    > constant growth phase. The second world war was so much more
    > destructive and widespread that it took even longer to 'catch up'
    > with demand. Even if demand started to tail off, restocking with newer
    > storage
    > mechanisms and moving into developing markets allowed these media
    > firms to keep the growth up.
    > (eg record > Tape > CD, Film > Tape > DVD and developed countries
    > to third world countries)
    > Now after 60 + years of constant growth and I reckon the market has
    > finally caught up with itself.
    >
    > The worlds changing.
    > We no longer stand for the national anthem at the movies.
    > Newspapers and magazines come with 'free' CD's.
    > Computers compete with media not because they are in the same
    > entertainment space but because the are in an attention space the
    > media can't compete with.
    >
    > My thoughts for the day.
    >
    > Best to all
    > Paul.


    As you said, couldn't agree more. There's just so much to do these days, so
    much competing for my dwindling leisure time. I'm as happy to watch 12
    Monkeys or Slingblade again as I am to watch an unknown quantity. Take away
    my access to new material and I'll re-watch my existing stuff more and use
    the library more. <shrug> I've got 300+ CDs that I've bought, as much as i
    enjoy discovering a new band/sound I could quite happily listen to nothing
    but the gems that I already own for the rest of my life.

    The world sure is changing. Some people just don't see it.

    Cheers,
    --
    Shaun.

    "Build a man a fire, and he`ll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and
    he`ll be warm for the rest of his life." Terry Pratchett, Jingo.
    ~misfit~, Feb 9, 2009
    #15
  16. Peter

    Richard Guest

    PeeCee wrote:

    > I think you've missed the point of my comment.
    > The key explanation of it was :
    > "Imagine the effects of a spoof email campaign on some poor Mum & Dad that
    > they're going to have the MIA banging on their door."


    No worse then the current risk of them giving all their money to some
    nigerian or whatever.

    > The thrust of my argument is that by making 'emails' an acceptable (read
    > legal) means of communication then a person receiving an infringement
    > notice from someone purporting to be from the MIA is unlikely to have
    > the technical resources to determine if the email is legitimate or not.
    > This opens the door for hate campaigns where technically unsophisticated
    > people could be coerced into actions to their detriment.


    Yeah, like some people already fall for all sorts of phone and snail
    mail scams - not an issue with the new laws, and the acceptance of
    signed emails in other areas is already pretty proven to be fine.

    > Sure the ISP techo's would be able to tell in short order if it was
    > genuine or not, Joe Public can't.
    > More to the point I would suggest there is 'no' effective easy to use
    > mechanism in place to guarantee an email is from the supposed sender.
    > (you would have to have a button on the email client that say's 'Check
    > Authenticity' before it gets to a point where it is realistically useable)
    > Ergo my point that the 'only' acceptable communication is a signed
    > letter where the evidence is on the document that the signatory is
    > actually the person issuing the document.


    Do you understand how public key signing works? Trusted root certs issue
    the private key when they are satisfied that you are authorized to get
    it, sure, there have being some fuckups but its pretty robust and a hell
    of a lot better then an easily reproduced squiggle on paper that can
    also have the content altered after the addition of the signature.

    > Luddite? no just acceptance that modern technology brings it's own
    > dangers and assumptions.
    > To many technology savvy people are to ready to accept if it's on the
    > screen then it must be for real.
    > Sorry I don't buy that I've seen to many examples of how easy it is to
    > misrepresent something, technology just makes it easier.



    If the mail is signed by a self signed cert, you get warnings much like
    accessing a website with an improper certificate - sure, you can ignore
    the warnings and get to the content just fine, but that is your own
    stupidity to act on any content or provide information to anything when
    you have being warned that the security is invalid - yes, people do it
    but that is a person problem not a process problem.
    Richard, Feb 9, 2009
    #16
  17. Peter

    oneofus Guest

    ~misfit~ wrote:
    > Somewhere on teh intarwebs PeeCee wrote:
    >> <> wrote in message
    >> news:...
    >> On Feb 5, 6:03 pm, Peter <> wrote:
    >>
    >>> And does anyone really think this will affect the volume of
    >>> copyright infringement?
    >>>
    >>> Peter

    >> I think the industry music,tv movies etc have to think a different
    >> path because i used to buy.
    >> Now I find that there is so much ready accesseable content radio tv
    >> sky streaming internet.
    >> Imagine the effects of a spoof email campaign on some poor Mum & Dad
    >> that they're going to have the MIA banging on their door.I have 2
    >> teenages in the house if they want music sky or streaming
    >> music is there choice.
    >> they buy the compilation albums if they like enough of the songs on
    >> it, thats all.
    >> <quote>
    >> Now I find that there is so much ready accesseable content radio tv
    >> sky streaming internet.
    >> </qote>
    >>
    >> Couldn't agree more.
    >>
    >> I think this is the real reason sales of media (Music, Video & TV)
    >> are on the downturn.
    >> Sure there is a significant amount of media, shall we say 'swapped'
    >> between people.
    >> But if the choice was made to have it for a fee or not have it at
    >> all, 99% of downloaders would not buy they'd just move on to some
    >> other form of entertainment.
    >>
    >> The ability to produce high quality entertainment in 'huge' numbers
    >> is so simple now that more media companies are competing for the same
    >> dwindling market.
    >> Media has been around long enough that 'already owned' product caters
    >> for a bigger and bigger portion of the listeners (viewers) needs.
    >> Wander through any Shopping Mall and the amount of media available is
    >> 'huge' CD's, DVD's Magazines, Books, TV's, MP3 players.
    >> But who do they sell to ?
    >> Not me, I've got most of what I want.
    >>
    >> 20 years ago yes I would have scanned the racks of CD's and Video's
    >> for something to buy, nowdays I don't bother even at 'bargain' prices.
    >> I have racks of CD's, piles of DVD's, I've even stopped the kids
    >> giving me vouchers for Christmas.
    >> New content doesn't turn me on, I'm not saying it's crap (though many
    >> would) it just doesn't grab my attention.
    >> I don't need another copy of Beethoven's 5th, Raiders of the Lost Ark
    >> and the number of times I've watched a Video and though 'I've seen
    >> this story before'.
    >> Call it one of the downsides of aging but it has to be dam good to be
    >> different today.
    >> Besides when Sony tried putting a Rootkit on PC's I was one of the
    >> legions that forsake anything Sony, to this day I avoid that brand if
    >> I can.
    >> I reckon what we are seeing is the end of the natural growth of this
    >> market. In the periods following the two world wars there was a
    >> dearth of consumer product.
    >> In the case of the first worlld war the market did not reach
    >> saturation before war returned so the media companies were in a
    >> constant growth phase. The second world war was so much more
    >> destructive and widespread that it took even longer to 'catch up'
    >> with demand. Even if demand started to tail off, restocking with newer
    >> storage
    >> mechanisms and moving into developing markets allowed these media
    >> firms to keep the growth up.
    >> (eg record > Tape > CD, Film > Tape > DVD and developed countries
    >> to third world countries)
    >> Now after 60 + years of constant growth and I reckon the market has
    >> finally caught up with itself.
    >>
    >> The worlds changing.
    >> We no longer stand for the national anthem at the movies.
    >> Newspapers and magazines come with 'free' CD's.
    >> Computers compete with media not because they are in the same
    >> entertainment space but because the are in an attention space the
    >> media can't compete with.
    >>
    >> My thoughts for the day.
    >>
    >> Best to all
    >> Paul.

    >
    > As you said, couldn't agree more. There's just so much to do these days, so
    > much competing for my dwindling leisure time. I'm as happy to watch 12
    > Monkeys or Slingblade again as I am to watch an unknown quantity. Take away
    > my access to new material and I'll re-watch my existing stuff more and use
    > the library more. <shrug> I've got 300+ CDs that I've bought, as much as i
    > enjoy discovering a new band/sound I could quite happily listen to nothing
    > but the gems that I already own for the rest of my life.
    >
    > The world sure is changing. Some people just don't see it.
    >
    > Cheers,


    Everybody still has the same amount of time to listen to music or watch
    movies or play games no matter how much they have hoarded onto their
    hard drive.
    How many tracks a day do you actually listen to ?
    Whats that worth ?
    Forget about the stuff you aren't listening to and the media companies
    might be able to propose an ethical compensation model that will keep
    them in business, but their windows of opportunity is passing them by.
    oneofus, Feb 9, 2009
    #17
  18. In article <gmpbit$81r$>, Richard <>
    wrote:
    (snip)
    >... but that is a person problem not a process problem.


    Yep. And the problem (whatever it is) is much more likely to be caused by
    the people than the system. That is the point :)
    Bruce Sinclair, Feb 10, 2009
    #18
  19. Peter

    Richard Guest

    Bruce Sinclair wrote:
    > In article <gmpbit$81r$>, Richard <>
    > wrote:
    > (snip)
    >> ... but that is a person problem not a process problem.

    >
    > Yep. And the problem (whatever it is) is much more likely to be caused by
    > the people than the system. That is the point :)


    The people that matter who can act on complaints will not be fooled, as
    for users getting things and doing stupid things, that already happens -
    there was a phishing endeavor some time ago that used the pretext of
    downloading copyrighted material as the reason to go to a site to get a
    cleaning tool or some crap - that was ages ago. Already happening, and
    tard users who believe anything emailed to them are always going to be a
    problem.

    I cant believe that someone would be prepared to accept a chickenscratch
    on paper over a digitally signed email for things like this - firstly
    the admin costs for the ISP are higher accepting paper documents.
    Richard, Feb 10, 2009
    #19
  20. In article <gmqjkv$uil$>, Richard <> wrote:
    >Bruce Sinclair wrote:
    >> In article <gmpbit$81r$>, Richard <>
    >> wrote:
    >> (snip)
    >>> ... but that is a person problem not a process problem.

    >>
    >> Yep. And the problem (whatever it is) is much more likely to be caused by
    >> the people than the system. That is the point :)

    >
    >The people that matter who can act on complaints will not be fooled, as
    >for users getting things and doing stupid things, that already happens -
    >there was a phishing endeavor some time ago that used the pretext of
    >downloading copyrighted material as the reason to go to a site to get a
    >cleaning tool or some crap - that was ages ago. Already happening, and
    >tard users who believe anything emailed to them are always going to be a
    >problem.
    >
    >I cant believe that someone would be prepared to accept a chickenscratch
    >on paper over a digitally signed email for things like this - firstly
    >the admin costs for the ISP are higher accepting paper documents.


    For me, chicken scratchings every time. :) :)
    Bruce Sinclair, Feb 10, 2009
    #20
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