Is MCSD worth doing?

Discussion in 'MCSD' started by =?Utf-8?B?YmVl?=, Dec 30, 2004.

  1. Does it increase your chances of getting a job in the IT sector?
    Do companies hire developers who have done MCSD but do not have a CS degree?
    Is it better to use C# than VB.NET for the exams?

    Any help/guidance will be appreciated.
    =?Utf-8?B?YmVl?=, Dec 30, 2004
    #1
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  2. =?Utf-8?B?YmVl?=

    Guest Guest

    "Doing" a MCSD will not help you land a job ..

    "Doing" a MCSD will not help you land a job; unless the MCSD in question is
    in a position to hire you. ;-)

    Seriously, companies want people who are well rounded; who have experience
    with the client's industry and / or strong analytical skills and a
    professional vocabulary to compliment their technical knowledge. If you are
    in your teens or early twenties and have the opportunity, then go for the
    degree. Most people your age are probably flipping burgers or doing low
    level tech support stuff, so postponing your 8x5 career won't cause you to
    miss out on much. Sure, you may be happy and content hacking out source code
    now, but in 10 years your interests will change. However, many companies put
    a glass ceiling on employees who don't have at least the equivalent of a 4
    year degree. Once you're married and have kids, it will be very hard to go
    back and get the degree then.

    WKidd

    "bee" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Does it increase your chances of getting a job in the IT sector?
    > Do companies hire developers who have done MCSD but do not have a CS

    degree?
    > Is it better to use C# than VB.NET for the exams?
    >
    > Any help/guidance will be appreciated.
    Guest, Dec 31, 2004
    #2
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  3. >Does it increase your chances of getting a job in the IT sector?

    it won't do you any harm, and if your company pays for it who cares
    anyway!

    Whether it increases your chances of getting another job, well that
    really depends. I partly work in the financial arena, although more
    lately in the manufacturing sector, I've never seen a demand for
    microsoft certs either back home or here in the uk. What counts is the
    amount of [technical and more importantly business] knowledge and
    experience you can bring to a company.

    >Do companies hire developers who have done MCSD but do not have a CS degree?


    Obtaining a degree especially a higher level degree is the best, and
    often only way, to make a start in a chosen career (any career, not
    just IT) path. People need to remember that when applying for a role.
    you need to get your résumé to the top of the pile, ahead of all the
    rest - hr bots don't understand words like desire and hunger

    In any case fewer and fewer companies are looking to take on entry
    level staff who have no real world experience. There are thousands of
    IT grads who have not been able to get that first job on the IT career
    ladder, many of which have simply gone into other professions.

    So, IMHO any cert without experience is a waste of money (unless
    you're not paying the costs). A cert without experience or a degree is
    completely meaningless; i can't see too many companies now (or even in
    the past) prepared to take you on simply by having a cert or two. If
    you know a buddy who work's in IT, see if they can put it good word or
    two, but don't hold your breath.

    If you truly desire a career in IT, my advice would be to get back
    into college and get educated in the process of software development,
    which is far more complicated than any ms cert would have you believe.

    >Is it better to use C# than VB.NET for the exams?


    makes no difference. Too many people think the choice of programming
    language is the must important part of any software development
    process, which just goes to show how clueless many people are when it
    comes to developing software.


    Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
    The Poster Formerly Known as Kline Sphere, Dec 31, 2004
    #3
  4. Re: "Doing" a MCSD will not help you land a job ..

    >Most people your age are probably flipping burgers

    ummmm burgers......

    Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
    The Poster Formerly Known as Kline Sphere, Dec 31, 2004
    #4
  5. =?Utf-8?B?YmVl?=

    TomTom Guest

    > Obtaining a degree especially a higher level degree is the best, and
    > often only way, to make a start in a chosen career (any career, not
    > just IT) path.


    I took the MCSD exams and passed them now. In preparing the exams, I seem to
    have a good understand of how I should use the MS technologies. With the
    preparation on 70-300, I seem to have an understanding on the basics of the
    object oriented design. My question to you is, what kind of great things
    you can learn from a university or graduate school that you cannot learn by
    preparing the exams? I don't have a CS degree and I honestly don't know. I
    imagine you learn subjects for which computer is a great aid (maths,
    statistics, etc.) and you learn non-MS technologies. If you have good
    examples on this, can you let me know?

    TomTom


    "The Poster Formerly Known as Kline Sphere" <.> wrote in message
    news:...
    > >Does it increase your chances of getting a job in the IT sector?

    >
    > it won't do you any harm, and if your company pays for it who cares
    > anyway!
    >
    > Whether it increases your chances of getting another job, well that
    > really depends. I partly work in the financial arena, although more
    > lately in the manufacturing sector, I've never seen a demand for
    > microsoft certs either back home or here in the uk. What counts is the
    > amount of [technical and more importantly business] knowledge and
    > experience you can bring to a company.
    >
    >>Do companies hire developers who have done MCSD but do not have a CS
    >>degree?

    >
    > Obtaining a degree especially a higher level degree is the best, and
    > often only way, to make a start in a chosen career (any career, not
    > just IT) path. People need to remember that when applying for a role.
    > you need to get your résumé to the top of the pile, ahead of all the
    > rest - hr bots don't understand words like desire and hunger
    >
    > In any case fewer and fewer companies are looking to take on entry
    > level staff who have no real world experience. There are thousands of
    > IT grads who have not been able to get that first job on the IT career
    > ladder, many of which have simply gone into other professions.
    >
    > So, IMHO any cert without experience is a waste of money (unless
    > you're not paying the costs). A cert without experience or a degree is
    > completely meaningless; i can't see too many companies now (or even in
    > the past) prepared to take you on simply by having a cert or two. If
    > you know a buddy who work's in IT, see if they can put it good word or
    > two, but don't hold your breath.
    >
    > If you truly desire a career in IT, my advice would be to get back
    > into college and get educated in the process of software development,
    > which is far more complicated than any ms cert would have you believe.
    >
    >>Is it better to use C# than VB.NET for the exams?

    >
    > makes no difference. Too many people think the choice of programming
    > language is the must important part of any software development
    > process, which just goes to show how clueless many people are when it
    > comes to developing software.
    >
    >
    > Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
    TomTom, Jan 1, 2005
    #5
  6. Getting a degree outside of what the professional world looks for is really a
    waste of time and money. In fact, I have had some teachers that impeded my
    education because said teacher never bothered to read the material and was
    giving false information. Everything known to man is written in books we
    don’t need college to teach us to read. But, alas, the world of work expects
    degrees.

    And finally, I read a survey in some online magazine by MS which broke down
    all the stats for certified people. Ironically, the biggest earners for this
    certification did not have a computer related degree.

    I have found in my life that the best way to get a job without question is
    to go to the right church or golf course. That is why I am currently
    unemployed
    "TomTom" wrote:

    > > Obtaining a degree especially a higher level degree is the best, and
    > > often only way, to make a start in a chosen career (any career, not
    > > just IT) path.

    >
    > I took the MCSD exams and passed them now. In preparing the exams, I seem to
    > have a good understand of how I should use the MS technologies. With the
    > preparation on 70-300, I seem to have an understanding on the basics of the
    > object oriented design. My question to you is, what kind of great things
    > you can learn from a university or graduate school that you cannot learn by
    > preparing the exams? I don't have a CS degree and I honestly don't know. I
    > imagine you learn subjects for which computer is a great aid (maths,
    > statistics, etc.) and you learn non-MS technologies. If you have good
    > examples on this, can you let me know?
    >
    > TomTom
    >
    >
    > "The Poster Formerly Known as Kline Sphere" <.> wrote in message
    > news:...
    > > >Does it increase your chances of getting a job in the IT sector?

    > >
    > > it won't do you any harm, and if your company pays for it who cares
    > > anyway!
    > >
    > > Whether it increases your chances of getting another job, well that
    > > really depends. I partly work in the financial arena, although more
    > > lately in the manufacturing sector, I've never seen a demand for
    > > microsoft certs either back home or here in the uk. What counts is the
    > > amount of [technical and more importantly business] knowledge and
    > > experience you can bring to a company.
    > >
    > >>Do companies hire developers who have done MCSD but do not have a CS
    > >>degree?

    > >
    > > Obtaining a degree especially a higher level degree is the best, and
    > > often only way, to make a start in a chosen career (any career, not
    > > just IT) path. People need to remember that when applying for a role.
    > > you need to get your résumé to the top of the pile, ahead of all the
    > > rest - hr bots don't understand words like desire and hunger
    > >
    > > In any case fewer and fewer companies are looking to take on entry
    > > level staff who have no real world experience. There are thousands of
    > > IT grads who have not been able to get that first job on the IT career
    > > ladder, many of which have simply gone into other professions.
    > >
    > > So, IMHO any cert without experience is a waste of money (unless
    > > you're not paying the costs). A cert without experience or a degree is
    > > completely meaningless; i can't see too many companies now (or even in
    > > the past) prepared to take you on simply by having a cert or two. If
    > > you know a buddy who work's in IT, see if they can put it good word or
    > > two, but don't hold your breath.
    > >
    > > If you truly desire a career in IT, my advice would be to get back
    > > into college and get educated in the process of software development,
    > > which is far more complicated than any ms cert would have you believe.
    > >
    > >>Is it better to use C# than VB.NET for the exams?

    > >
    > > makes no difference. Too many people think the choice of programming
    > > language is the must important part of any software development
    > > process, which just goes to show how clueless many people are when it
    > > comes to developing software.
    > >
    > >
    > > Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3

    >
    >
    >
    =?Utf-8?B?U2Vhbg==?=, Jan 1, 2005
    #6
  7. >Getting a degree outside of what the professional world looks for is really a
    >waste of time and money.


    yup, who wants a sociology degree these days!

    > In fact, I have had some teachers that impeded my
    >education because said teacher never bothered to read the material and was
    >giving false information.


    yup, there are bad teachers and lecturers just as there are bad IT
    professions, just that in education there are far less of them.

    > Everything known to man is written in books we
    >don’t need college to teach us to read.


    reading books and understanding the content and the subject matter are
    two totally separate things; reading a book or two does not
    necessarily equate to knowledge. If you had embarked on a degree,
    especially a higher level degree, you would understand this.

    >But, alas, the world of work expects
    >degrees.


    no, the world expects experience, no matter what the profession is.
    Degree's and the like of in IT, only serve a purpose for the first few
    roles while you are gaining the real world experience that companies
    desire.

    >And finally, I read a survey in some online magazine by MS which broke down
    >all the stats for certified people.
    > Ironically, the biggest earners for this
    >certification did not have a computer related degree.


    Any fool can (and does) program a computer these days. The tools
    around today have almost made programming an unskilled role, which is
    why you don't see too many roles for 'programmers'. What is important
    are the stages in the process which occur before a 'programmer' enters
    the first line of code.

    The purpose of software, despite what the software vendors would have
    you believe, is to support the business, to help it compete better in
    it's market place. In order to do so, a company needs business
    professionals who understand the nature of their core (and subsidiary)
    businesses and the world it operates in. Naturally some of these
    people require a first rate understanding of how to develop software.

    Many IT 'professionals' today come from other backgrounds such as
    banking, insurance, accounting, manufacturing, etc,etc, many of which
    will have a degree (or two), while a few others will not. In addition,
    many will hold industry recognized professional qualifications gained
    before they made the switch to IT. These type of people are so
    important. because good systems engineering is vital for any business
    whether or not the solution will be implemented using software. As
    always, these are the roles in demand.

    But the point remains, without experience (both business and
    technical) or a first rate education, it is unlikely a somebody,
    despite how 'keen' they are will get into the profession.

    If you don't believe this, then tell the people who have no experience
    and a second rate education to apply for an IT role with microsoft
    corporation and see how far they get.

    >I have found in my life that the best way to get a job without question is
    >to go to the right church or golf course.


    Amen bother.

    Interaction with others is vital to get one noticed in life. In IT
    user groups, conventions, seminars, etc are a way to get noticed. But
    you need to get noticed and not just sit there on your a$$. So by
    getting involved, being prepared to speak, prepare presentations etc
    will help you get noticed. My wife operates as a freelance IT
    (financial) business consultant, this was exactly what she did nearly
    twenty years ago to get her started on her own and now works for
    companies both side of the Atlantic.

    > That is why I am currently
    >unemployed


    Which is down to what and who? There are many reasons why people are
    unemployed such as refusing to relocate, refusing to retrain, having
    the wrong work ethics, not having the necessary business knowledge in
    deemed at the time, or simply being no good at their job! There are
    many other reasons too.

    Would being unemployed be any different for some without ten years
    experience and/or an Msc or PHd? Who knows.....

    One thing is for sure there a plenty of jobs out there for
    'experienced professionals', but I do mean 'experienced
    professionals'. And these roles may not be on the same block as where
    everyone lives.

    Anyway, good luck.

    Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
    The Poster Formerly Known as Kline Sphere, Jan 2, 2005
    #7
  8. >> Obtaining a degree especially a higher level degree is the best, and
    >> often only way, to make a start in a chosen career (any career, not
    >> just IT) path.

    >
    >I took the MCSD exams and passed them now. In preparing the exams, I seem to
    >have a good understand of how I should use the MS technologies.


    which is as far as microsoft are concerned, is the point of the exams.

    > With the
    >preparation on 70-300, I seem to have an understanding on the basics of the
    >object oriented design.


    70-300 covered the 'very' basics of software development. I sure in
    your everyday work you find the challenges more stimulating than those
    encountered in 70-300.

    > My question to you is, what kind of great things
    >you can learn from a university or graduate school that you cannot learn by
    >preparing the exams?


    oh dear.

    Well for a start the subject is more vast and varied, which is more
    relevant to the industry as a whole. Software is about solving
    business problems NOT buzzwords.

    One example you have already answered for yourself 'MS technologies'.
    This would count for little in a non microsoft environment, and
    believe me there are plenty of corporations out there who are not.
    Vendor exams promote the vendors products, nothing more.

    In any case the requirements covered in the exams do not reflect the
    real world. If you believe 70-300 represents the real world, you are
    very much mistaken. Software engineering a vast subject, people have
    written books on the subject which good as they are, often barely
    touch the surface. Where in the ms exams do you encounter at any level
    which requires even the most basic of explanations for the role of,
    and how to conduct the process of, project management, risk analysis,
    configuration management, outsoursing, estimating (resources, time &
    materials), verification & validation, professional issues, contract
    management. Not to mention the various methods and processes, which if
    you believe the msf is the correct framework for every problem, again
    you are very much mistaken.

    The ms (and some other vendor) exams are trivial. Answering a question
    does not prove an understanding of the question. Nowhere do you have
    to explain and/or describe how you arrived at the answer or even write
    anything (which makes me laugh when people state they are about to
    'write' 76-543). Often all that was achieved was selecting the correct
    answer from a list which actually included the answer - ridicules. In
    addition, many people do pass these 'exams' simply by memorizing the
    answers from practice tests and from brain dumps - little learning or
    understanding gained here. I wonder how many people could write an
    original 20,000 word dissertation/thesis on the msf, the dot net
    framework or the J2EE?

    In addition, I can guarantee you will get laid far more at college and
    university than you will while 'studying' for the ms exams, and no
    your sister don't count ;-)

    > I don't have a CS degree and I honestly don't know. I
    >imagine you learn subjects for which computer is a great aid (maths,
    >statistics, etc.) and you learn non-MS technologies.


    No, I never learnt any vendor 'technologies', and today (as always)
    computers are just a tool for me to use.

    Learning and using (and not using) new 'technologies' is part and
    parcel of the profession. Nothing has change in this respect in the
    twenty plus years I've been in this game. However there are more
    'technologies' to choose from which means more to reject.

    Once again you choose to include 'MS' in your argument, so I'll point
    out that domain and specification modeling should have no concern for
    the underlying technologies to be used, yet these are the most
    important stages. Only during design and implementation should the
    choice of 'technologies' be of any concern. One of the funniest things
    I ever herd was from a so called IT director, who once said 'We cannot
    start the project because VB 6 has not been released yet'! Still,
    after he was 'released', he found a more financially rewarding career
    selling real estate.

    > If you have good
    >examples on this, can you let me know?


    Well apart from what I've just mentioned here, you only have to look
    at what employers require for entry level (first role) IT positions.
    If you see entry level positions on monster, job serve, the labor
    exchange, etc which require no educational qualifications, please let
    the people here know.

    If you feel this is inaccurate then help all those looking for a
    career in IT find there way forward, as you have done. Maybe tell them
    about the company which first hired you into the IT profession and how
    you have progressed to date. People without degrees have done so
    before, they will do so now and in the future, but many, many more
    have failed and will fail in the future.

    Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
    The Poster Formerly Known as Kline Sphere, Jan 2, 2005
    #8
  9. =?Utf-8?B?YmVl?=

    TomTom Guest

    It's always interesting to read your comments. My comments inline.

    "The Poster Formerly Known as Kline Sphere" <.> wrote in message
    news:...
    >>> Obtaining a degree especially a higher level degree is the best, and
    >>> often only way, to make a start in a chosen career (any career, not
    >>> just IT) path.

    >>
    >>I took the MCSD exams and passed them now. In preparing the exams, I seem
    >>to
    >>have a good understand of how I should use the MS technologies.

    >
    > which is as far as microsoft are concerned, is the point of the exams.
    >


    People should have correct expectation from the certification if they don't
    have it now.


    >> With the
    >>preparation on 70-300, I seem to have an understanding on the basics of
    >>the
    >>object oriented design.

    >
    > 70-300 covered the 'very' basics of software development. I sure in
    > your everyday work you find the challenges more stimulating than those
    > encountered in 70-300.
    >


    Is it true that many programmers cannot explain OOP even in the very basic
    level? 70-300 will prove that you have the very basics then, if the person
    did not cheat, which is the big problem. :)

    >> My question to you is, what kind of great things
    >>you can learn from a university or graduate school that you cannot learn
    >>by
    >>preparing the exams?

    >
    > oh dear.
    >
    > Well for a start the subject is more vast and varied, which is more
    > relevant to the industry as a whole. Software is about solving
    > business problems NOT buzzwords.
    >
    > One example you have already answered for yourself 'MS technologies'.
    > This would count for little in a non microsoft environment, and
    > believe me there are plenty of corporations out there who are not.
    > Vendor exams promote the vendors products, nothing more.
    >


    Isnt' being able to use the MS technologies important still? I agree that
    anybody can program with the RAD tools and the programs created will help to
    solve the business problems. They may not be as sophisticated as the
    programs created by the first-rate programmer, but there are many situations
    that they'll do the job fine. Because of the wide use of Windows platform,
    many companies probably want to know if the job candidates know how to
    program using MS technologies.

    By the way, before .NET came out, I tried Java Servlet and JSP using Forte
    for Java. At that time, I thought that the tool is reasonably easy to use
    but once I began using VS.NET, I cannot go back to Forte. The productivity
    dramatically increased in my case. The difficulty may be due to Forte at
    that time though.

    > In any case the requirements covered in the exams do not reflect the
    > real world. If you believe 70-300 represents the real world, you are
    > very much mistaken. Software engineering a vast subject, people have
    > written books on the subject which good as they are, often barely
    > touch the surface. Where in the ms exams do you encounter at any level
    > which requires even the most basic of explanations for the role of,
    > and how to conduct the process of, project management, risk analysis,
    > configuration management, outsoursing, estimating (resources, time &
    > materials), verification & validation, professional issues, contract
    > management. Not to mention the various methods and processes, which if
    > you believe the msf is the correct framework for every problem, again
    > you are very much mistaken.
    >


    But can the CS department of the universities educate you on the subjects
    you mentinoed above? They have different department and I believe you need
    to learn in those department. There are different certifications for those
    subjects. :)

    > The ms (and some other vendor) exams are trivial. Answering a question
    > does not prove an understanding of the question. Nowhere do you have
    > to explain and/or describe how you arrived at the answer or even write
    > anything (which makes me laugh when people state they are about to
    > 'write' 76-543). Often all that was achieved was selecting the correct
    > answer from a list which actually included the answer - ridicules. In
    > addition, many people do pass these 'exams' simply by memorizing the
    > answers from practice tests and from brain dumps - little learning or
    > understanding gained here. I wonder how many people could write an
    > original 20,000 word dissertation/thesis on the msf, the dot net
    > framework or the J2EE?
    >


    If you know how to use the MS technologies well, the questions are trivial,
    I am sure. In my case, the questions were not easy when I began to prepare
    for the exams especially because there are subjects that I don't usually
    work on. I needed to learn those from little knowledge.


    > In addition, I can guarantee you will get laid far more at college and
    > university than you will while 'studying' for the ms exams, and no
    > your sister don't count ;-)
    >


    >> I don't have a CS degree and I honestly don't know. I
    >>imagine you learn subjects for which computer is a great aid (maths,
    >>statistics, etc.) and you learn non-MS technologies.

    >
    > No, I never learnt any vendor 'technologies', and today (as always)
    > computers are just a tool for me to use.
    >
    > Learning and using (and not using) new 'technologies' is part and
    > parcel of the profession. Nothing has change in this respect in the
    > twenty plus years I've been in this game. However there are more
    > 'technologies' to choose from which means more to reject.
    >
    > Once again you choose to include 'MS' in your argument, so I'll point
    > out that domain and specification modeling should have no concern for
    > the underlying technologies to be used, yet these are the most
    > important stages. Only during design and implementation should the
    > choice of 'technologies' be of any concern. One of the funniest things
    > I ever herd was from a so called IT director, who once said 'We cannot
    > start the project because VB 6 has not been released yet'! Still,
    > after he was 'released', he found a more financially rewarding career
    > selling real estate.


    This is interesting because I can understand your point after I study for
    70-300.

    >
    >> If you have good
    >>examples on this, can you let me know?

    >
    > Well apart from what I've just mentioned here, you only have to look
    > at what employers require for entry level (first role) IT positions.
    > If you see entry level positions on monster, job serve, the labor
    > exchange, etc which require no educational qualifications, please let
    > the people here know.
    >


    My guess is that employers can gather good job candidates by including the
    educational requirements for the entry-level positions. They might be
    assuming that people who apply for the entry-level positions do not have
    experiences, thus educational requirements.


    > If you feel this is inaccurate then help all those looking for a
    > career in IT find there way forward, as you have done. Maybe tell them
    > about the company which first hired you into the IT profession and how
    > you have progressed to date. People without degrees have done so
    > before, they will do so now and in the future, but many, many more
    > have failed and will fail in the future.


    I once worked for a manager who really cared about the lack of my CS degree.
    Employers that focus too much on degrees or certifications are probably not
    good employers. However I understand that with no degree and no
    certifications, the employers probably don't have time to asses the skill of
    the candidates. If a person wants to work in IT and has no degree, I think
    getting certifications is a good start because it increases his/her
    possibility of getting a job. I work on IT, but I do not write code for
    released software. I work on international stuff and write tools for
    improving the process. There probably are more job disciplines that require
    programming knowledge and skill but does not require programming for the
    released products. These areas might have more lenient educational
    requirements, but might require you to have other special knowledge.


    >
    > Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
    TomTom, Jan 2, 2005
    #9
  10. My point about formal education can be illustrated using the examples of
    online courses. Write a syllabus, submit, kids learn. Deadlines provide
    discipline which a self motivated person doesn’t really need in the first
    place. I
    Granted a teacher can provide answers to specific questions or new ways of
    describing something that is in the text which is not understood but at least
    from my personal experience everything I needed to learn from a class is
    already written in text.
    That all said, I am going for a second degree not because I feel I can learn
    better from college but because I need to proof that I have.

    And when I say you can learn anything you want from a book. I don’t mean a
    few books, I mean a lot of books. The best invention for education has been
    the printing press..:)


    "The Poster Formerly Known as Kline Spher" wrote:

    > >Getting a degree outside of what the professional world looks for is really a
    > >waste of time and money.

    >
    > yup, who wants a sociology degree these days!
    >
    > > In fact, I have had some teachers that impeded my
    > >education because said teacher never bothered to read the material and was
    > >giving false information.

    >
    > yup, there are bad teachers and lecturers just as there are bad IT
    > professions, just that in education there are far less of them.
    >
    > > Everything known to man is written in books we
    > >don’t need college to teach us to read.

    >
    > reading books and understanding the content and the subject matter are
    > two totally separate things; reading a book or two does not
    > necessarily equate to knowledge. If you had embarked on a degree,
    > especially a higher level degree, you would understand this.
    >
    > >But, alas, the world of work expects
    > >degrees.

    >
    > no, the world expects experience, no matter what the profession is.
    > Degree's and the like of in IT, only serve a purpose for the first few
    > roles while you are gaining the real world experience that companies
    > desire.
    >
    > >And finally, I read a survey in some online magazine by MS which broke down
    > >all the stats for certified people.
    > > Ironically, the biggest earners for this
    > >certification did not have a computer related degree.

    >
    > Any fool can (and does) program a computer these days. The tools
    > around today have almost made programming an unskilled role, which is
    > why you don't see too many roles for 'programmers'. What is important
    > are the stages in the process which occur before a 'programmer' enters
    > the first line of code.
    >
    > The purpose of software, despite what the software vendors would have
    > you believe, is to support the business, to help it compete better in
    > it's market place. In order to do so, a company needs business
    > professionals who understand the nature of their core (and subsidiary)
    > businesses and the world it operates in. Naturally some of these
    > people require a first rate understanding of how to develop software.
    >
    > Many IT 'professionals' today come from other backgrounds such as
    > banking, insurance, accounting, manufacturing, etc,etc, many of which
    > will have a degree (or two), while a few others will not. In addition,
    > many will hold industry recognized professional qualifications gained
    > before they made the switch to IT. These type of people are so
    > important. because good systems engineering is vital for any business
    > whether or not the solution will be implemented using software. As
    > always, these are the roles in demand.
    >
    > But the point remains, without experience (both business and
    > technical) or a first rate education, it is unlikely a somebody,
    > despite how 'keen' they are will get into the profession.
    >
    > If you don't believe this, then tell the people who have no experience
    > and a second rate education to apply for an IT role with microsoft
    > corporation and see how far they get.
    >
    > >I have found in my life that the best way to get a job without question is
    > >to go to the right church or golf course.

    >
    > Amen bother.
    >
    > Interaction with others is vital to get one noticed in life. In IT
    > user groups, conventions, seminars, etc are a way to get noticed. But
    > you need to get noticed and not just sit there on your a$$. So by
    > getting involved, being prepared to speak, prepare presentations etc
    > will help you get noticed. My wife operates as a freelance IT
    > (financial) business consultant, this was exactly what she did nearly
    > twenty years ago to get her started on her own and now works for
    > companies both side of the Atlantic.
    >
    > > That is why I am currently
    > >unemployed

    >
    > Which is down to what and who? There are many reasons why people are
    > unemployed such as refusing to relocate, refusing to retrain, having
    > the wrong work ethics, not having the necessary business knowledge in
    > deemed at the time, or simply being no good at their job! There are
    > many other reasons too.
    >
    > Would being unemployed be any different for some without ten years
    > experience and/or an Msc or PHd? Who knows.....
    >
    > One thing is for sure there a plenty of jobs out there for
    > 'experienced professionals', but I do mean 'experienced
    > professionals'. And these roles may not be on the same block as where
    > everyone lives.
    >
    > Anyway, good luck.
    >
    > Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
    >
    =?Utf-8?B?U2Vhbg==?=, Jan 2, 2005
    #10
  11. >>>> Obtaining a degree especially a higher level degree is the best, and
    >>>> often only way, to make a start in a chosen career (any career, not
    >>>> just IT) path.
    >>>
    >>>I took the MCSD exams and passed them now. In preparing the exams, I seem
    >>>to
    >>>have a good understand of how I should use the MS technologies.

    >>
    >> which is as far as microsoft are concerned, is the point of the exams.
    >>

    >People should have correct expectation from the certification if they don't
    >have it now.


    True, which is why so called 'prep test' and 'boot camp' providers
    often use sales pitches along the line of 'get yourself more money
    with an mcse', 'get yourself a new job with an mcsd', 'can't get a
    job? then get an mcdba!'. People see this, and in hope and/or
    desperation believe them.

    >>> With the
    >>>preparation on 70-300, I seem to have an understanding on the basics of
    >>>the
    >>>object oriented design.

    >>
    >> 70-300 covered the 'very' basics of software development. I sure in
    >> your everyday work you find the challenges more stimulating than those
    >> encountered in 70-300.
    >>

    >Is it true that many programmers cannot explain OOP even in the very basic
    >level?


    Why yes, just as there are so called network administrators who don't
    understand the purpose of subnets.

    > 70-300 will prove that you have the very basics then, if the person
    >did not cheat, which is the big problem. :)


    The scourge of the ms certification process are the cheats and those
    that exploit the cheats, braindump sites are example. This will
    continue until ms change the format and requirements of the process.

    >Isnt' being able to use the MS technologies important still?


    Yes, but a business problem has nothing to do with technologies which
    are outside of the problem domain. Indeed, a choice of technology is
    often a [process] constraint imposed upon the system , but this 'fact'
    should not dictate the business requirements specification.

    When a competitor releases a rival financial product, the company in
    competition does not think 'damn, we have to wait till vs 2005 is
    released before we can release ours' or 'how we going code this in
    Java?'.

    > I agree that
    >anybody can program with the RAD tools and the programs created will help to
    >solve the business problems. They may not be as sophisticated as the
    >programs created by the first-rate programmer, but there are many situations
    >that they'll do the job fine.


    Tools are only as good as the people who use them. A scalpel in the
    hand of a surgeon can save lives, while in the hand of maniac it can
    take lives.

    The choice of phrase 'do the job fine' is interesting because it shows
    how assumptions (the mother of all fcukups) creep in. 'do the job
    fine' would require a number statements or facts to be identified
    before it's true meaning became apparent. As an example for a one off
    conversion type application which once run against say, a legacy data
    system, it is required no more, it would be pointless designing and
    implementing a solution using a formal method which results in a
    solution which is both maintainable and portable. While for a software
    package which monitors and records hart rate information of heart
    attach victims, which will be used worldwide by many hospitals, the
    solution will almost certainly be modeled using a formal method which
    results in solution which is indeed maintainable and portable.

    What we are really saying here is that a system should be 'fit for
    purpose', which can be defined as a system which is delivered on time,
    within budget and 'does the job fine'!

    > Because of the wide use of Windows platform,
    >many companies probably want to know if the job candidates know how to
    >program using MS technologies.


    To me this is a missed opportunity for those companies. So, what they
    are really saying here is that a third party vendor is more important
    to them than their own core business, well to me that's crazy.

    Someone who has ten plus years in a particular business sector, who
    understands J2EE, would have no problem picking up dot net. Sure a bit
    of training may be required, but the business and real world
    knowledge that person has gained cannot be obtained through any amount
    of training.

    Once again a case where technologies take precedence over the problem
    domain, and another reason why software projects fail.

    >By the way, before .NET came out, I tried Java Servlet and JSP using Forte
    >for Java. At that time, I thought that the tool is reasonably easy to use
    >but once I began using VS.NET, I cannot go back to Forte.


    but you may have to some day. The point here is that you would be able
    to, while other dot net people, who have no idea what you're talking
    about here, would not.

    >> In any case the requirements covered in the exams do not reflect the
    >> real world. If you believe 70-300 represents the real world, you are
    >> very much mistaken. Software engineering a vast subject, people have
    >> written books on the subject which good as they are, often barely
    >> touch the surface. Where in the ms exams do you encounter at any level
    >> which requires even the most basic of explanations for the role of,
    >> and how to conduct the process of, project management, risk analysis,
    >> configuration management, outsoursing, estimating (resources, time &
    >> materials), verification & validation, professional issues, contract
    >> management. Not to mention the various methods and processes, which if
    >> you believe the msf is the correct framework for every problem, again
    >> you are very much mistaken.
    >>

    >
    >But can the CS department of the universities educate you on the subjects
    >you mentinoed above?


    Well the give more than just a grounding, well they did for me anyway.

    >They have different department and I believe you need
    >to learn in those department.


    I did a business computing degree but even in a computer science
    degree it will still cover such topics.

    > There are different certifications for those
    >subjects. :)


    indeed.

    >If you know how to use the MS technologies well, the questions are trivial,
    >I am sure.


    As they should be.

    > In my case, the questions were not easy when I began to prepare
    >for the exams especially because there are subjects that I don't usually
    >work on. I needed to learn those from little knowledge.


    As does everyone.

    >My guess is that employers can gather good job candidates by including the
    >educational requirements for the entry-level positions.


    Exactly and it acts as an HR filter.

    >They might be
    >assuming that people who apply for the entry-level positions do not have
    >experiences, thus educational requirements.


    And they would be correct. Entry level is different for junior level,
    however none of us ever stop learning.

    >I once worked for a manager who really cared about the lack of my CS degree.


    Then he/she is a jerk.

    >Employers that focus too much on degrees or certifications are probably not
    >good employers.


    If you mean over experience and ability, then I'd agree.

    >However I understand that with no degree and no
    >certifications, the employers probably don't have time to asses the skill of
    >the candidates.


    ... and they don't have to because there are plenty of people who have
    degrees out there. Those companies who do hire grads can pick and
    choose, nothings really changed here.

    > If a person wants to work in IT and has no degree, I think
    >getting certifications is a good start because it increases his/her
    >possibility of getting a job.


    It can't do any harm. But think of it from the employer's point of
    view, would you hire someone you don't know, who has no employment
    history as a car mechanic to service your car?

    > I work on IT, but I do not write code for
    >released software. I work on international stuff and write tools for
    >improving the process. There probably are more job disciplines that require
    >programming knowledge and skill but does not require programming for the
    >released products. These areas might have more lenient educational
    >requirements, but might require you to have other special knowledge.


    No, it's about aptitude. Having a degree does not necessarily mean
    you'll cut it in the real world. A degree will simply give someone a
    far better chance of getting started.

    Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
    The Poster Formerly Known as Kline Sphere, Jan 3, 2005
    #11
  12. >Granted a teacher can provide answers to specific questions or new ways of
    >describing something that is in the text which is not understood but at least
    >from my personal experience everything I needed to learn from a class is
    >already written in text.


    But you can't argue or introduce discussion and conjecture when
    reading a book on your. What happens if there are topics or even whole
    subjects you don't understand? As I've said before reading a book and
    understanding it's content are two separate things.

    Lecturers are not there to provide the answers, that's up to.
    Lecturers are however there for guidance. You also have your fellow
    students available for discussion, it's not all one way.

    Nothing is black and white, nothing is that simple. Take the issue of
    outsourcing for example, is it good or bad? The point here is to
    understand the subject or topic at which point an argument can be
    presented. Too often an argument is based solely on a lack of
    understanding born out of sheer ignorance, take the C++ vs Java flame
    war for instance.

    >That all said, I am going for a second degree not because I feel I can learn
    >better from college but because I need to proof that I have.


    don't you think that's a waste of time and money ;-)

    >And when I say you can learn anything you want from a book. I don’t mean a
    >few books, I mean a lot of books. The best invention for education has been
    >the printing press..:)


    Not quite true, nothing can prepare you for every single possible
    outcome, that comes through experience.

    A book is only has good as the content. There plenty of poor books
    around written by poor authors.

    Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
    The Poster Formerly Known as Kline Sphere, Jan 3, 2005
    #12
  13. =?Utf-8?B?YmVl?=

    Eric Guest

    TomTom wrote:

    > what kind of great things you can learn from a
    > university or graduate school that you cannot learn by preparing the
    > exams?


    Getting a degree is part of a formal education. You can't get a degree
    by studing braindumps, although there is certainly a lot of pre-test
    cramming involved.

    Companies trust a formal education over self-study by a wide margin.

    I'm not saying self-study is of no value, but rather it is of less
    value.

    I think a degree in a non-computer specific major is of some value, but
    that isn't going to be the best choice. You should target Computer
    Science, or Management Information Science, or something related.

    I strongly recommend a college degree as a first-choice. If this is not
    possible, then certification is better than nothing. Having BOTH is the
    best!

    Eric
    Eric, Jan 3, 2005
    #13
  14. =?Utf-8?B?YmVl?=

    TomTom Guest

    "The Poster Formerly Known as Kline Sphere" <.> wrote in message
    news:...
    >>>>> Obtaining a degree especially a higher level degree is the best, and
    >>>>> often only way, to make a start in a chosen career (any career, not
    >>>>> just IT) path.
    >>>>
    >>>>I took the MCSD exams and passed them now. In preparing the exams, I
    >>>>seem
    >>>>to
    >>>>have a good understand of how I should use the MS technologies.
    >>>
    >>> which is as far as microsoft are concerned, is the point of the exams.
    >>>

    >>People should have correct expectation from the certification if they
    >>don't
    >>have it now.

    >
    > True, which is why so called 'prep test' and 'boot camp' providers
    > often use sales pitches along the line of 'get yourself more money
    > with an mcse', 'get yourself a new job with an mcsd', 'can't get a
    > job? then get an mcdba!'. People see this, and in hope and/or
    > desperation believe them.
    >
    >>>> With the
    >>>>preparation on 70-300, I seem to have an understanding on the basics of
    >>>>the
    >>>>object oriented design.
    >>>
    >>> 70-300 covered the 'very' basics of software development. I sure in
    >>> your everyday work you find the challenges more stimulating than those
    >>> encountered in 70-300.
    >>>

    >>Is it true that many programmers cannot explain OOP even in the very basic
    >>level?

    >
    > Why yes, just as there are so called network administrators who don't
    > understand the purpose of subnets.
    >
    >> 70-300 will prove that you have the very basics then, if the person
    >>did not cheat, which is the big problem. :)

    >
    > The scourge of the ms certification process are the cheats and those
    > that exploit the cheats, braindump sites are example. This will
    > continue until ms change the format and requirements of the process.
    >


    I wonder if it's possible for MS to take down the braindump sites. It should
    be possible.


    >>Isnt' being able to use the MS technologies important still?

    >
    > Yes, but a business problem has nothing to do with technologies which
    > are outside of the problem domain. Indeed, a choice of technology is
    > often a [process] constraint imposed upon the system , but this 'fact'
    > should not dictate the business requirements specification.
    >
    > When a competitor releases a rival financial product, the company in
    > competition does not think 'damn, we have to wait till vs 2005 is
    > released before we can release ours' or 'how we going code this in
    > Java?'.
    >


    Are there cases when programmers do not need to understand the business?
    Programmer read the development specs and implement the stuff written in the
    spec. In this case, the value of knowing the business is not high. The tool
    may be more of their interest.


    >> I agree that
    >>anybody can program with the RAD tools and the programs created will help
    >>to
    >>solve the business problems. They may not be as sophisticated as the
    >>programs created by the first-rate programmer, but there are many
    >>situations
    >>that they'll do the job fine.

    >
    > Tools are only as good as the people who use them. A scalpel in the
    > hand of a surgeon can save lives, while in the hand of maniac it can
    > take lives.
    >
    > The choice of phrase 'do the job fine' is interesting because it shows
    > how assumptions (the mother of all fcukups) creep in. 'do the job
    > fine' would require a number statements or facts to be identified
    > before it's true meaning became apparent. As an example for a one off
    > conversion type application which once run against say, a legacy data
    > system, it is required no more, it would be pointless designing and
    > implementing a solution using a formal method which results in a
    > solution which is both maintainable and portable. While for a software
    > package which monitors and records hart rate information of heart
    > attach victims, which will be used worldwide by many hospitals, the
    > solution will almost certainly be modeled using a formal method which
    > results in solution which is indeed maintainable and portable.


    I understand your point but I am talking about less critical areas. For
    example, non-programmers can increase their productivity dramatically by
    knowing VBScript or C#. They don't even need to catch exceptions but finish
    their tasks that otherwise they have to do manually.

    >
    > What we are really saying here is that a system should be 'fit for
    > purpose', which can be defined as a system which is delivered on time,
    > within budget and 'does the job fine'!
    >


    I agree.

    >> Because of the wide use of Windows platform,
    >>many companies probably want to know if the job candidates know how to
    >>program using MS technologies.

    >
    > To me this is a missed opportunity for those companies. So, what they
    > are really saying here is that a third party vendor is more important
    > to them than their own core business, well to me that's crazy.
    >


    Those companies use a 3rd party tool to improve their prodcutivity and this
    is totally understandable.

    > Someone who has ten plus years in a particular business sector, who
    > understands J2EE, would have no problem picking up dot net. Sure a bit
    > of training may be required, but the business and real world
    > knowledge that person has gained cannot be obtained through any amount
    > of training.
    >
    > Once again a case where technologies take precedence over the problem
    > domain, and another reason why software projects fail.
    >
    >>By the way, before .NET came out, I tried Java Servlet and JSP using Forte
    >>for Java. At that time, I thought that the tool is reasonably easy to use
    >>but once I began using VS.NET, I cannot go back to Forte.

    >
    > but you may have to some day. The point here is that you would be able
    > to, while other dot net people, who have no idea what you're talking
    > about here, would not.
    >
    >>> In any case the requirements covered in the exams do not reflect the
    >>> real world. If you believe 70-300 represents the real world, you are
    >>> very much mistaken. Software engineering a vast subject, people have
    >>> written books on the subject which good as they are, often barely
    >>> touch the surface. Where in the ms exams do you encounter at any level
    >>> which requires even the most basic of explanations for the role of,
    >>> and how to conduct the process of, project management, risk analysis,
    >>> configuration management, outsoursing, estimating (resources, time &
    >>> materials), verification & validation, professional issues, contract
    >>> management. Not to mention the various methods and processes, which if
    >>> you believe the msf is the correct framework for every problem, again
    >>> you are very much mistaken.
    >>>

    >>
    >>But can the CS department of the universities educate you on the subjects
    >>you mentinoed above?

    >
    > Well the give more than just a grounding, well they did for me anyway.
    >
    >>They have different department and I believe you need
    >>to learn in those department.

    >
    > I did a business computing degree but even in a computer science
    > degree it will still cover such topics.
    >


    Didnt' know that. Thanks for the info.

    >> There are different certifications for those
    >>subjects. :)

    >
    > indeed.
    >
    >>If you know how to use the MS technologies well, the questions are
    >>trivial,
    >>I am sure.

    >
    > As they should be.
    >
    >> In my case, the questions were not easy when I began to prepare
    >>for the exams especially because there are subjects that I don't usually
    >>work on. I needed to learn those from little knowledge.

    >
    > As does everyone.
    >
    >>My guess is that employers can gather good job candidates by including the
    >>educational requirements for the entry-level positions.

    >
    > Exactly and it acts as an HR filter.
    >
    >>They might be
    >>assuming that people who apply for the entry-level positions do not have
    >>experiences, thus educational requirements.

    >
    > And they would be correct. Entry level is different for junior level,
    > however none of us ever stop learning.
    >
    >>I once worked for a manager who really cared about the lack of my CS
    >>degree.

    >
    > Then he/she is a jerk.
    >
    >>Employers that focus too much on degrees or certifications are probably
    >>not
    >>good employers.

    >
    > If you mean over experience and ability, then I'd agree.
    >
    >>However I understand that with no degree and no
    >>certifications, the employers probably don't have time to asses the skill
    >>of
    >>the candidates.

    >
    > .. and they don't have to because there are plenty of people who have
    > degrees out there. Those companies who do hire grads can pick and
    > choose, nothings really changed here.
    >
    >> If a person wants to work in IT and has no degree, I think
    >>getting certifications is a good start because it increases his/her
    >>possibility of getting a job.

    >
    > It can't do any harm. But think of it from the employer's point of
    > view, would you hire someone you don't know, who has no employment
    > history as a car mechanic to service your car?
    >
    >> I work on IT, but I do not write code for
    >>released software. I work on international stuff and write tools for
    >>improving the process. There probably are more job disciplines that
    >>require
    >>programming knowledge and skill but does not require programming for the
    >>released products. These areas might have more lenient educational
    >>requirements, but might require you to have other special knowledge.

    >
    > No, it's about aptitude. Having a degree does not necessarily mean
    > you'll cut it in the real world. A degree will simply give someone a
    > far better chance of getting started.


    Having a certificate has a better chance of getting stated than nothing. The
    point is how much the chance can be increased by having a certificate.

    >
    > Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
    TomTom, Jan 5, 2005
    #14
  15. Well I haven’t been to the best colleges in the world but consistently make
    A’s. I am currently getting my second degree and it’s the same as it was when
    I was in my 20’s. Read the material go to class, day dream, study for the
    test, get an A and I put in no more time then the others.
    Almost all the students who need the teacher either don’t read the material
    or simply have trouble concentrating in solitude which is more psychological
    then anything else. Now I am not saying I havent ever had questions and
    refered teachers to something specifically in the text I didnt understand but
    that is more the exception then the rule by a long shot

    Ironically I was labeled as having a learning deficiency when I was a kid
    because I had the opposite problem. I could not concentrate around others but
    I could in solitude. So on that, you might be right, it might be just my
    unique learning style. Studying for MCAD sure does make feel stupid again I
    must admit.
    =?Utf-8?B?U2Vhbg==?=, Jan 7, 2005
    #15
  16. >I am currently getting my second degree and it’s the same as it was when
    >I was in my 20’s. Read the material go to class, day dream, study for the
    >test


    how boring.

    best things about college and university are (in no real order)

    Getting laid,
    Getting drunk.
    Getting high.
    Meeting interesting people.
    Getting laid.
    Getting .........

    Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
    The Poster Formerly Known as Kline Sphere, Jan 11, 2005
    #16
  17. >I wonder if it's possible for MS to take down the braindump sites. It should
    >be possible.


    They have taken some down, there have even been arrests. But it's big
    business for those companies so they simply start up again.

    Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
    The Poster Formerly Known as Kline Sphere, Jan 11, 2005
    #17
  18. >Are there cases when programmers do not need to understand the business?

    Sure, but then there are no roles for 'programmers' these days, well
    maybe in third world sweat shops there are.

    >Programmer read the development specs and implement the stuff written in the
    >spec. In this case, the value of knowing the business is not high. The tool
    >may be more of their interest.


    The actual generation of code is so trivial these days. Templates,
    components and other reuse techniques and tools have made this so.

    Coding to specs is simply a matter of producing an implementation of
    [part of] a design. It is the design which is important, a poor design
    equals a poor implementation. In order to produce a good design of how
    the [business] problem in hand is to be solved, the business process
    needs to be understood.

    Yes, it is possible to produce crap code, but with a decent set of
    standards, patterns and procedures in place, this should not manifest
    itself into deployment.

    So, why is this not the case in so many IT environments? Well, there
    have been many books and papers written about the problem, but in a
    nutshell it boils down to clueless fcukwits.

    Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
    The Poster Formerly Known as Kline Sphere, Jan 11, 2005
    #18
  19. >> The choice of phrase 'do the job fine' is interesting because it shows
    >> how assumptions (the mother of all fcukups) creep in. 'do the job
    >> fine' would require a number statements or facts to be identified
    >> before it's true meaning became apparent. As an example for a one off
    >> conversion type application which once run against say, a legacy data
    >> system, it is required no more, it would be pointless designing and
    >> implementing a solution using a formal method which results in a
    >> solution which is both maintainable and portable. While for a software
    >> package which monitors and records hart rate information of heart
    >> attach victims, which will be used worldwide by many hospitals, the
    >> solution will almost certainly be modeled using a formal method which
    >> results in solution which is indeed maintainable and portable.

    >
    >I understand your point but I am talking about less critical areas. For
    >example, non-programmers can increase their productivity dramatically by
    >knowing VBScript or C#. They don't even need to catch exceptions but finish
    >their tasks that otherwise they have to do manually.


    The cost of not catching those exceptions may have more of a
    consequence than what the so called 'coder' understands. I have seen
    and heard about large amounts of money being 'lost' because of
    incompetent or fraudulent use of software written by 'users', i.e.
    'poor quality' software. In other cases, the short term gain in cost
    savings was replaced by a long loses because as a result of the
    consequences of persistent failure of the software.

    People simply fail to realize that producing high quality software is
    actually cheaper in the long run than continually churning out crap
    time after time. The problem again is simply down to incompetence.

    Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
    The Poster Formerly Known as Kline Sphere, Jan 11, 2005
    #19
  20. >> To me this is a missed opportunity for those companies. So, what they
    >> are really saying here is that a third party vendor is more important
    >> to them than their own core business, well to me that's crazy.
    >>

    >
    >Those companies use a 3rd party tool to improve their prodcutivity and this
    >is totally understandable.


    All businesses rely on other businesses. My point was that no business
    should rely on the function of other businesses to such an extent that
    it negates the core function(s) of their own business.

    Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
    The Poster Formerly Known as Kline Sphere, Jan 11, 2005
    #20
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