iPad—No Adobe Flash Player

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Jan 28, 2010.

  1. Curious omission, since Flash Player is available for ARM, though maybe only
    under Linux.
     
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Jan 28, 2010
    #1
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  2. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    David Empson Guest

    Lawrence D'Oliveiro <_zealand> wrote:

    > Curious omission, since Flash Player is available for ARM, though maybe only
    > under Linux.


    Hardly curious, since it is also not available on the iPhone. The iPad
    runs the same OS and has the same general policies.

    Daring Fireball has a good take on why no Flash for the iPhone and
    similar devices.

    http://daringfireball.net/2010/01/apple_adobe_flash

    --
    David Empson
     
    David Empson, Jan 28, 2010
    #2
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  3. In message <1jd1xmk.10kk1n81trsxoyN%>, David Empson
    wrote:

    > Lawrence D'Oliveiro <_zealand> wrote:
    >
    >> Curious omission, since Flash Player is available for ARM, though maybe
    >> only under Linux.

    >
    > Hardly curious, since it is also not available on the iPhone.


    But the iPad is not a phone. It’s targeted as a mobile internet device. But
    for an internet-oriented device not to be able to serve up YouTube, which
    last I checked was one of the top 5 most popular websites, seems a trifle
    .... incompetent.
     
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Jan 28, 2010
    #3
  4. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Ted Guest

    Re: iPad—No Adobe Flash Player

    On Jan 29, 11:04 am, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <l...@geek-
    central.gen.new_zealand> wrote:
    > In message <1jd1xmk.10kk1n81trsxoyN%>, David Empson
    > wrote:
    >
    > > Lawrence D'Oliveiro <_zealand> wrote:

    >
    > >> Curious omission, since Flash Player is available for ARM, though maybe
    > >> only under Linux.

    >
    > > Hardly curious, since it is also not available on the iPhone.

    >
    > But the iPad is not a phone. It’s targeted as a mobile internet device. But
    > for an internet-oriented device not to be able to serve up YouTube, which
    > last I checked was one of the top 5 most popular websites, seems a trifle
    > ... incompetent.


    It can serve up YouTube. The HD demos looked good.
     
    Ted, Jan 28, 2010
    #4
  5. In message <>, Ted wrote:

    > On Jan 29, 11:04 am, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <_zealand> wrote:
    >
    >> But the iPad is not a phone. It’s targeted as a mobile internet device.
    >> But for an internet-oriented device not to be able to serve up YouTube,
    >> which last I checked was one of the top 5 most popular websites, seems a
    >> trifle ... incompetent.

    >
    > It can serve up YouTube.


    How? Through the standard browser? Or do you need a special app?
     
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Jan 28, 2010
    #5
  6. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Ted Guest

    Re: iPad—No Adobe Flash Player

    On Jan 29, 12:03 pm, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <l...@geek-
    central.gen.new_zealand> wrote:
    > In message <..com>, Ted wrote:
    >
    > > On Jan 29, 11:04 am, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <_zealand> wrote:

    >
    > >> But the iPad is not a phone. It’s targeted as a mobile internet device.
    > >> But for an internet-oriented device not to be able to serve up YouTube,
    > >> which last I checked was one of the top 5 most popular websites, seems a
    > >> trifle ... incompetent.

    >
    > > It can serve up YouTube.

    >
    > How? Through the standard browser? Or do you need a special app?


    From http://www.apple.com/ipad/features/


    YouTube

    The YouTube app organizes videos so they’re easy to see and navigate.
    To watch one, just tap it. When you’re watching in landscape, the
    video automatically plays in full screen. And with its high-resolution
    display, iPad makes the latest HD YouTube videos look positively
    amazing.
     
    Ted, Jan 28, 2010
    #6
  7. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    David Empson Guest

    Lawrence D'Oliveiro <_zealand> wrote:

    > In message <1jd1xmk.10kk1n81trsxoyN%>, David Empson
    > wrote:
    >
    > > Lawrence D'Oliveiro <_zealand> wrote:
    > >
    > >> Curious omission, since Flash Player is available for ARM, though maybe
    > >> only under Linux.

    > >
    > > Hardly curious, since it is also not available on the iPhone.

    >
    > But the iPad is not a phone. It's targeted as a mobile internet device.


    That is also one of the major uses of the iPhone and iPod Touch, which
    are running the same operating system. Everyone I know who has an iPhone
    uses it for at least occasional web browsing if they don't have a
    computer handy.

    > But for an internet-oriented device not to be able to serve up YouTube,
    > which last I checked was one of the top 5 most popular websites, seems a
    > trifle ... incompetent.


    When the iPhone was introduced (mid 2007), Google updated YouTube to
    convert most (if not all) of its videos from Flash to MPEG-4 (H.264).

    The iPhone has a dedicated YouTube application to access the MPEG-4
    versions of the video, as will the iPad.

    The YouTube web interface continued to access the Flash version, but you
    could get to the MPEG-4 version by appendng "&fmt=18" to the YouTube
    URL. I think the "HD" button now achieves the same thing.

    --
    David Empson
     
    David Empson, Jan 28, 2010
    #7
  8. In message <1jd2x3c.r9995c1g4dkqjN%>, David Empson
    wrote:

    > The iPhone has a dedicated YouTube application to access the MPEG-4
    > versions of the video, as will the iPad.


    How does that work when someone embeds a YouTube video in another site?
     
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Jan 28, 2010
    #8
  9. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    David Empson Guest

    Lawrence D'Oliveiro <_zealand> wrote:

    > In message <1jd2x3c.r9995c1g4dkqjN%>, David Empson
    > wrote:
    >
    > > The iPhone has a dedicated YouTube application to access the MPEG-4
    > > versions of the video, as will the iPad.

    >
    > How does that work when someone embeds a YouTube video in another site?


    You get a grey box with a play symbol and YouTube logo. Tapping it
    switches to the YouTube app to play the video.

    You can then switch back to Safari via the Done button, or it does it
    automatically at the end of the video.

    --
    David Empson
     
    David Empson, Jan 29, 2010
    #9
  10. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Gib Bogle Guest

    Re: iPad—No Adobe Flash Player

    David Empson wrote:
    > Lawrence D'Oliveiro <_zealand> wrote:
    >
    >> Curious omission, since Flash Player is available for ARM, though maybe only
    >> under Linux.

    >
    > Hardly curious, since it is also not available on the iPhone. The iPad
    > runs the same OS and has the same general policies.
    >
    > Daring Fireball has a good take on why no Flash for the iPhone and
    > similar devices.
    >
    > http://daringfireball.net/2010/01/apple_adobe_flash
    >


    Very interesting.
     
    Gib Bogle, Jan 29, 2010
    #10
  11. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    me Guest

    Re: iPad—No Adobe Flash Player

    On Jan 29, 11:16 am, Ted <> wrote:

    >
    > It can serve up YouTube.  The HD demos looked good.


    It is a pity it doesn't have a HD resolution screen though.
     
    me, Jan 29, 2010
    #11
  12. In message <1jd2zng.wg5xy1ot3smN%>, David Empson wrote:

    > Lawrence D'Oliveiro <_zealand> wrote:
    >
    >> In message <1jd2x3c.r9995c1g4dkqjN%>, David Empson
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >> > The iPhone has a dedicated YouTube application to access the MPEG-4
    >> > versions of the video, as will the iPad.

    >>
    >> How does that work when someone embeds a YouTube video in another site?

    >
    > You get a grey box with a play symbol and YouTube logo. Tapping it
    > switches to the YouTube app to play the video.


    I thought on Apple equipment things “just workedâ€, seamlessly, without all
    this having to tap back and forth.

    > You can then switch back to Safari via the Done button, or it does it
    > automatically at the end of the video.


    So does this only work with Safari then, not your choice of browser?
     
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Jan 29, 2010
    #12
  13. In message <1jd3jxu.zk9duzp9otgxN%>, David Empson
    wrote:

    > Lawrence D'Oliveiro <_zealand> wrote:
    >
    >> In message <1jd2zng.wg5xy1ot3smN%>, David Empson
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >> > Lawrence D'Oliveiro <_zealand> wrote:
    >> >
    >> >> In message <1jd2x3c.r9995c1g4dkqjN%>, David
    >> >> Empson wrote:
    >> >>
    >> >> > The iPhone has a dedicated YouTube application to access the MPEG-4
    >> >> > versions of the video, as will the iPad.
    >> >>
    >> >> How does that work when someone embeds a YouTube video in another
    >> >> site?
    >> >
    >> > You get a grey box with a play symbol and YouTube logo. Tapping it
    >> > switches to the YouTube app to play the video.

    >>
    >> I thought on Apple equipment things "just worked", seamlessly, without
    >> all this having to tap back and forth.

    >
    > One tap is not seamless? Get a life.


    And of course it’s not just YouTube. A whole bunch of other popular sites
    are off limits <http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/01/28/adobe_disses_ipad/>.

    >> > You can then switch back to Safari via the Done button, or it does it
    >> > automatically at the end of the video.

    >>
    >> So does this only work with Safari then, not your choice of browser?

    >
    > Any competing browser would have to use WebKit anyway, as Apple wouldn't
    > let anyone else implement a JavaScript interpreter on the iPhone.


    Wonder why not? That would seem to cripple the device even more.
     
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Jan 29, 2010
    #13
  14. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Bystander Guest

    In article <hju8vq$qph$>,
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro <_zealand> wrote:

    > In message <1jd3jxu.zk9duzp9otgxN%>, David Empson
    > wrote:
    >
    > > Lawrence D'Oliveiro <_zealand> wrote:
    > >
    > >> In message <1jd2zng.wg5xy1ot3smN%>, David Empson
    > >> wrote:
    > >>
    > >> > Lawrence D'Oliveiro <_zealand> wrote:
    > >> >
    > >> >> In message <1jd2x3c.r9995c1g4dkqjN%>, David
    > >> >> Empson wrote:
    > >> >>
    > >> >> > The iPhone has a dedicated YouTube application to access the MPEG-4
    > >> >> > versions of the video, as will the iPad.
    > >> >>
    > >> >> How does that work when someone embeds a YouTube video in another
    > >> >> site?
    > >> >
    > >> > You get a grey box with a play symbol and YouTube logo. Tapping it
    > >> > switches to the YouTube app to play the video.
    > >>
    > >> I thought on Apple equipment things "just worked", seamlessly, without
    > >> all this having to tap back and forth.

    > >
    > > One tap is not seamless? Get a life.

    >
    > And of course it’s not just YouTube. A whole bunch of other popular sites
    > are off limits <http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/01/28/adobe_disses_ipad/>.
    >
    > >> > You can then switch back to Safari via the Done button, or it does it
    > >> > automatically at the end of the video.
    > >>
    > >> So does this only work with Safari then, not your choice of browser?

    > >
    > > Any competing browser would have to use WebKit anyway, as Apple wouldn't
    > > let anyone else implement a JavaScript interpreter on the iPhone.

    >
    > Wonder why not? That would seem to cripple the device even more.


    Whatever. Frankly, I'll be glad to see Flash replaced by standard HTML5
    because:

    First reason -- Whenever I start up a Flash video on my MacBook, both
    processor cores immediately go 100% load and the internal fans switch to
    max blow. Apple says it's because Adobe refuses to write a proper
    version of Flash for the Mac, while Adobe claims it's because Apple
    won't give them access to the hardware APIs they need.

    That's somewhat unconvincing, because if I run a web browser on my Mac
    in a virtualised version of Windows XP using Parallels then Flash runs
    normally. Odd that Apple has given the cazy Russians who wrote Parallels
    access to the hardware, and not their old mates down the road at Adobe.

    Or is it something to do with Apple writing their own Display PostScript
    clone for OSX instead of continuing to pay Adobe the ridiculous
    licensing fee they screwed out of Steve Jobs for his NeXT machine? They
    weren't happy about that at the time, nor since, apparently.

    Second reason -- When it's not screwing up the simple task of displaying
    video, Flash is primarily used by second-rate web designers who think
    their ideas about how to construct user interfaces with drop-down
    menus that go "ping", pushbuttons that jump about just for a laugh,
    music you can't turn off and scroll bars that have their own inner logic
    known only o their designer. I could go on.

    So, in the absence of rules or even ordinary respect for web conventions
    -- Death to Flash! is what I say.

    Speaking as a Mac user.
    --
    Bystander
     
    Bystander, Jan 31, 2010
    #14
  15. In message <hk30ir$ie3$>, Bystander wrote:

    > In article <hju8vq$qph$>,
    > Lawrence D'Oliveiro <_zealand> wrote:
    >
    >> In message <1jd3jxu.zk9duzp9otgxN%>, David Empson
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >>> Any competing browser would have to use WebKit anyway, as Apple
    >>> wouldn't let anyone else implement a JavaScript interpreter on the
    >>> iPhone.

    >>
    >> Wonder why not? That would seem to cripple the device even more.

    >
    > Whatever. Frankly, I'll be glad to see Flash replaced by standard HTML5
    > because:
    >
    > First reason -- Whenever I start up a Flash video on my MacBook, both
    > processor cores immediately go 100% load and the internal fans switch to
    > max blow. Apple says it's because Adobe refuses to write a proper
    > version of Flash for the Mac, while Adobe claims it's because Apple
    > won't give them access to the hardware APIs they need.


    In other words, Apple hardware and Adobe Flash have a long history of not
    getting along. Too bad.
     
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Feb 2, 2010
    #15
  16. In message <hk90gq$2ln$>, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

    > In message <hk30ir$ie3$>, Bystander wrote:
    >
    >> Frankly, I'll be glad to see Flash replaced by standard HTML5
    >> because:
    >>
    >> First reason -- Whenever I start up a Flash video on my MacBook, both
    >> processor cores immediately go 100% load and the internal fans switch to
    >> max blow. Apple says it's because Adobe refuses to write a proper
    >> version of Flash for the Mac, while Adobe claims it's because Apple
    >> won't give them access to the hardware APIs they need.

    >
    > In other words, Apple hardware and Adobe Flash have a long history of not
    > getting along. Too bad.


    And it’s to Apple’s advantage to keep it that way
    <http://blogs.zdnet.com/Apple/?p=5922>.
     
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Feb 2, 2010
    #16
  17. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Bystander Guest

    In article <hk90gq$2ln$>,
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro <_zealand> wrote:

    > In message <hk30ir$ie3$>, Bystander wrote:
    >
    > > In article <hju8vq$qph$>,
    > > Lawrence D'Oliveiro <_zealand> wrote:
    > >
    > >> In message <1jd3jxu.zk9duzp9otgxN%>, David Empson
    > >> wrote:
    > >>
    > >>> Any competing browser would have to use WebKit anyway, as Apple
    > >>> wouldn't let anyone else implement a JavaScript interpreter on the
    > >>> iPhone.
    > >>
    > >> Wonder why not? That would seem to cripple the device even more.

    > >
    > > Whatever. Frankly, I'll be glad to see Flash replaced by standard HTML5
    > > because:
    > >
    > > First reason -- Whenever I start up a Flash video on my MacBook, both
    > > processor cores immediately go 100% load and the internal fans switch to
    > > max blow. Apple says it's because Adobe refuses to write a proper
    > > version of Flash for the Mac, while Adobe claims it's because Apple
    > > won't give them access to the hardware APIs they need.

    >
    > In other words, Apple hardware and Adobe Flash have a long history of not
    > getting along. Too bad.


    Oh, come on Lawrence, you can say it: if it's a choice between anything
    Apple does, whether open source, industry standard or proprietary, and
    Adobe's proprietary Flash -- then you'll go with proprietary.

    Remember, consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds, right?
    --
    Bystander
     
    Bystander, Feb 2, 2010
    #17
  18. In message <hka7ho$pdh$>, Bystander wrote:

    > In article <hk90gq$2ln$>,
    > Lawrence D'Oliveiro <_zealand> wrote:
    >
    >> In message <hk30ir$ie3$>, Bystander wrote:
    >>
    >> > In article <hju8vq$qph$>,
    >> > Lawrence D'Oliveiro <_zealand> wrote:
    >> >
    >> >> In message <1jd3jxu.zk9duzp9otgxN%>, David Empson
    >> >> wrote:
    >> >>
    >> >>> Any competing browser would have to use WebKit anyway, as Apple
    >> >>> wouldn't let anyone else implement a JavaScript interpreter on the
    >> >>> iPhone.
    >> >>
    >> >> Wonder why not? That would seem to cripple the device even more.
    >> >
    >> > Whatever. Frankly, I'll be glad to see Flash replaced by standard HTML5
    >> > because:
    >> >
    >> > First reason -- Whenever I start up a Flash video on my MacBook, both
    >> > processor cores immediately go 100% load and the internal fans switch
    >> > to max blow. Apple says it's because Adobe refuses to write a proper
    >> > version of Flash for the Mac, while Adobe claims it's because Apple
    >> > won't give them access to the hardware APIs they need.

    >>
    >> In other words, Apple hardware and Adobe Flash have a long history of not
    >> getting along. Too bad.

    >
    > Oh, come on Lawrence, you can say it: if it's a choice between anything
    > Apple does, whether open source, industry standard or proprietary, and
    > Adobe's proprietary Flash -- then you'll go with proprietary.


    And it’s to Apple’s advantage to keep it that way
    <http://blogs.zdnet.com/Apple/?p=5922>.
     
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Feb 2, 2010
    #18
  19. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    David Empson Guest

    Lawrence D'Oliveiro <_zealand> wrote:

    > In message <hk90gq$2ln$>, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >
    > > In message <hk30ir$ie3$>, Bystander wrote:
    > >
    > >> Frankly, I'll be glad to see Flash replaced by standard HTML5
    > >> because:
    > >>
    > >> First reason -- Whenever I start up a Flash video on my MacBook, both
    > >> processor cores immediately go 100% load and the internal fans switch to
    > >> max blow. Apple says it's because Adobe refuses to write a proper
    > >> version of Flash for the Mac, while Adobe claims it's because Apple
    > >> won't give them access to the hardware APIs they need.

    > >
    > > In other words, Apple hardware and Adobe Flash have a long history of not
    > > getting along. Too bad.

    >
    > And it's to Apple's advantage to keep it that way
    > <http://blogs.zdnet.com/Apple/?p=5922>.


    That blog posting is almost entirely wrong.

    Key points against it:

    1. As long as you believe Apple's comments and financial reporting on
    the matter (and I think the SEC would have some say in this), Flash
    competing with App Store sales is not a valid argument. Apple makes
    substantially more money selling iPods and iPhones than it does selling
    software to run on them. The App Store exists to encourage sales of more
    iPhones and iPod Touches (and soon iPads).

    If Flash was widely available for mobile devices (which it isn't) and
    the Flash applications had been redeveloped as required to work with a
    multi-touch user interface instead of keyboard and mouse (which they
    haven't), then Apple would probably be under greater pressure to allow
    Flash onto the iPhone OS, so as not to lose too many hardware sales to
    other mobile devices.

    Apple is hoping that Flash will decline in popularity and/or the App
    Store will be a compelling enough alternative that they will never need
    to allow Flash to run on the iPhone OS.

    Adobe has also announced they are planning a method for Flash developers
    to recompile their applications to run natively on an iPhone (which
    would then have to be distributed via the App Store, just like other
    developers).

    2. Same situation with the iTunes Store selling content. Apple makes a
    lot more money selling iPods and iPhones than selling music for them.

    3. There is no "lock in" to the iTunes Store as the only source of
    content for the iPod/iPhone/iPad. You can add your own music or video to
    iTunes on your computer and sync them to the device.

    These two points wipe out most of the arguments in the blog.

    4. The so-called "expensive cable" which you need to use the dock
    connector is supplied with the iPod/iPhone/iPad. I bought a spare one a
    while ago and don't recall it being expensive. Certainly not compared to
    a "genuine" Sony HDMI cable, for example, which didn't come with my
    Blu-ray player.

    5. Apple have stated on their web site that the iPad will support
    Bluetooth keyboards.


    So what arguably valid points are left?

    I only see one: Apple gets to make money by licensing third party
    products which use the Dock connector, and they want to control
    everything which uses that connector.


    --
    David Empson
     
    David Empson, Feb 3, 2010
    #19
  20. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Bystander Guest

    In article <hkabs5$rnm$>,
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro <_zealand> wrote:

    > In message <hka7ho$pdh$>, Bystander wrote:
    >
    > > In article <hk90gq$2ln$>,
    > > Lawrence D'Oliveiro <_zealand> wrote:
    > >
    > >> In message <hk30ir$ie3$>, Bystander wrote:
    > >>
    > >> > In article <hju8vq$qph$>,
    > >> > Lawrence D'Oliveiro <_zealand> wrote:
    > >> >
    > >> >> In message <1jd3jxu.zk9duzp9otgxN%>, David Empson
    > >> >> wrote:
    > >> >>
    > >> >>> Any competing browser would have to use WebKit anyway, as Apple
    > >> >>> wouldn't let anyone else implement a JavaScript interpreter on the
    > >> >>> iPhone.
    > >> >>
    > >> >> Wonder why not? That would seem to cripple the device even more.
    > >> >
    > >> > Whatever. Frankly, I'll be glad to see Flash replaced by standard HTML5
    > >> > because:
    > >> >
    > >> > First reason -- Whenever I start up a Flash video on my MacBook, both
    > >> > processor cores immediately go 100% load and the internal fans switch
    > >> > to max blow. Apple says it's because Adobe refuses to write a proper
    > >> > version of Flash for the Mac, while Adobe claims it's because Apple
    > >> > won't give them access to the hardware APIs they need.
    > >>
    > >> In other words, Apple hardware and Adobe Flash have a long history of not
    > >> getting along. Too bad.

    > >
    > > Oh, come on Lawrence, you can say it: if it's a choice between anything
    > > Apple does, whether open source, industry standard or proprietary, and
    > > Adobe's proprietary Flash -- then you'll go with proprietary.

    >
    > And it’s to Apple’s advantage to keep it that way
    > <http://blogs.zdnet.com/Apple/?p=5922>.


    Oh, are you referring to the ZD Net Apple Core article before or after
    Jason O'Grady was obliged to revise it to remove the embarrassing errors
    of fact his first version contained? Check it out.

    I call BS on him and by extension, you.

    I like software that works and I don't care where it comes from, so I
    don't have a horse in this race.

    But you, with your relentless and tedious spouting about holy open
    source -- you should be ashamed of yourself. Hypocrite.
    --
    Bystander
     
    Bystander, Feb 4, 2010
    #20
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