Intermittent Faults - Preferred Lay Remedies

Discussion in 'UK VOIP' started by News Reader, May 8, 2007.

  1. News Reader

    News Reader Guest

    Hi,

    Can I get peoples opinions on and suggestions of lay / informal remedies to
    intermittent faults.

    My /one suggestion is "bouncing", such as with a soft surface - e.g. a bed.
    "Grasp device at one end, 'bounce' onto and off soft surface. Plug in and
    try again".

    Thanks.


    Best wishes,



    News Reader
     
    News Reader, May 8, 2007
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. News Reader

    cybuerke Guest

    News Reader wrote:
    > Hi,
    >
    > Can I get peoples opinions on and suggestions of lay / informal
    > remedies to intermittent faults.
    >
    > My /one suggestion is "bouncing", such as with a soft surface - e.g.
    > a bed. "Grasp device at one end, 'bounce' onto and off soft surface.
    > Plug in and try again".


    How very refined.... Much less drastic than the common person's "Give it a
    bloody good kicking."

    If urgency isn't an issue, I've found that that repeated nagging with escalating
    threats sometimes serves.

    YMMV
     
    cybuerke, May 8, 2007
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. "cybuerke" <> wrote in message
    news:f1p361$sic$2surf.net...
    > News Reader wrote:
    >> Hi,
    >>
    >> Can I get peoples opinions on and suggestions of lay / informal
    >> remedies to intermittent faults.
    >>
    >> My /one suggestion is "bouncing", such as with a soft surface - e.g.
    >> a bed. "Grasp device at one end, 'bounce' onto and off soft surface.
    >> Plug in and try again".

    >
    > How very refined.... Much less drastic than the common person's "Give it
    > a bloody good kicking."
    >
    > If urgency isn't an issue, I've found that that repeated nagging with
    > escalating threats sometimes serves.
    >



    The problem lies in the frustration circuit which is present in all
    electronic equipment. It reduces performance in direct proportion to the
    perceived frustration of the user. You should try sitting back with a cup
    of tea and pretending that you don't really want to go on line anyway.
    ;o)
    --
    Keith Willcocks
    (If you can't laugh at life, it ain't worth living!)
     
    Keith Willcocks, May 8, 2007
    #3
  4. News Reader

    PeterC Guest

    On Tue, 8 May 2007 08:45:40 +0100, Keith Willcocks wrote:

    > "cybuerke" <> wrote in message
    > news:f1p361$sic$2surf.net...
    >> News Reader wrote:
    >>> Hi,
    >>>
    >>> Can I get peoples opinions on and suggestions of lay / informal
    >>> remedies to intermittent faults.
    >>>
    >>> My /one suggestion is "bouncing", such as with a soft surface - e.g.
    >>> a bed. "Grasp device at one end, 'bounce' onto and off soft surface.
    >>> Plug in and try again".

    >>
    >> How very refined.... Much less drastic than the common person's "Give it
    >> a bloody good kicking."
    >>
    >> If urgency isn't an issue, I've found that that repeated nagging with
    >> escalating threats sometimes serves.
    >>

    >
    > The problem lies in the frustration circuit which is present in all
    > electronic equipment. It reduces performance in direct proportion to the
    > perceived frustration of the user. You should try sitting back with a cup
    > of tea and pretending that you don't really want to go on line anyway.
    > ;o)


    This circuit also senses the proximity of any qualified person and
    immediately suspends the fault until the threat of repair has passed.
    --
    Peter.
    If you can do it today, you didn't put off enough yesterday.
     
    PeterC, May 8, 2007
    #4
  5. News Reader

    DH Guest

    News Reader wrote:
    > Hi,
    >
    > Can I get peoples opinions on and suggestions of lay / informal remedies to
    > intermittent faults.
    >
    > My /one suggestion is "bouncing", such as with a soft surface - e.g. a bed.
    > "Grasp device at one end, 'bounce' onto and off soft surface. Plug in and
    > try again".
    >
    > Thanks.
    >
    >
    > Best wishes,
    >
    >
    >
    > News Reader
    >
    >


    Hit it with a "virtual" stick, much better than threast.

    DH
     
    DH, May 8, 2007
    #5
  6. News Reader

    Brian A Guest

    On Tue, 08 May 2007 08:35:28 GMT, DH <> wrote:

    >News Reader wrote:
    >> Hi,
    >>
    >> Can I get peoples opinions on and suggestions of lay / informal remedies to
    >> intermittent faults.
    >>
    >> My /one suggestion is "bouncing", such as with a soft surface - e.g. a bed.
    >> "Grasp device at one end, 'bounce' onto and off soft surface. Plug in and
    >> try again".
    >>
    >> Thanks.
    >>
    >>
    >> Best wishes,
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> News Reader
    >>
    >>

    >
    >Hit it with a "virtual" stick, much better than threast.
    >
    >DH

    Intermiitent faults can often be due to soldered joint or component
    problems.
    These often depend on temperature. The particular method(s) I have
    used have depended on the fault type, these are:-
    1. Tap printed circuit boards, in various places, with the non-metalic
    part of a screwdriver. This method can be used, gently, on thermionic
    devices, such as on the neck of a CRT, if that is suspected.
    2. If intermittent noise, try squirting 'freezer' aerosol on
    individual components, that you have homed in on, by studying the
    circuit/making measurements - i.e. standard fault finding techniques.
    3. Use a hairdryer on suspect areas, to raise the temperature, if you
    suspect a temperature driven fault.
    4.Put it on 'soak' - i.e. give it time, get on with something else but
    kep an eye on the performance of the device under test.

    If the fault fails to materialise then, at least, clean up the
    circuit boards and make sure any switches etc.are cleaned, where
    appropriate. Hope this helps!

    Remove 'no_spam_' from email address.
     
    Brian A, May 8, 2007
    #6
  7. News Reader

    M. J. Powell Guest

    In message <>, Keith Willcocks
    <> writes
    >
    >"cybuerke" <> wrote in message
    >news:f1p361$sic$2surf.net...
    >> News Reader wrote:
    >>> Hi,
    >>>
    >>> Can I get peoples opinions on and suggestions of lay / informal
    >>> remedies to intermittent faults.
    >>>
    >>> My /one suggestion is "bouncing", such as with a soft surface - e.g.
    >>> a bed. "Grasp device at one end, 'bounce' onto and off soft surface.
    >>> Plug in and try again".

    >>
    >> How very refined.... Much less drastic than the common person's "Give it
    >> a bloody good kicking."
    >>
    >> If urgency isn't an issue, I've found that that repeated nagging with
    >> escalating threats sometimes serves.
    >>

    >
    >
    >The problem lies in the frustration circuit which is present in all
    >electronic equipment. It reduces performance in direct proportion to the
    >perceived frustration of the user. You should try sitting back with a cup
    >of tea and pretending that you don't really want to go on line anyway.


    As a former maintenance engineer I was completely convinced that a fault
    occupied a point in space. If you replaced faulty equipment then the new
    equipment showed the same fault and the old gear was perfectly
    serviceable.

    Mike
    --
    M.J.Powell
     
    M. J. Powell, May 8, 2007
    #7
  8. News Reader

    Adam Piggott Guest

    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA1

    DH wrote:
    > News Reader wrote:
    >> Hi,
    >>
    >> Can I get peoples opinions on and suggestions of lay / informal
    >> remedies to intermittent faults.
    >>
    >> My /one suggestion is "bouncing", such as with a soft surface - e.g. a
    >> bed. "Grasp device at one end, 'bounce' onto and off soft surface.
    >> Plug in and try again".


    > Hit it with a "virtual" stick, much better than threast.
    >
    > DH


    May I counter-suggest the Baton of Health and Safety. This
    government-approved replacement of the commonplace "stick" is a safe and
    environmentally-friendly length of foam with no corners, flammable
    materials or sexist/ageist/racist comments inscribed on it (in case of
    offence). It is unlikely to damage anything that comes in contact with it,
    nor subject the user to any repetitive strain injury, noise damage or risk
    of poking one's eye out. It cannot be smoked, so is in compliance with
    recent anti-smoking legislation.

    It is also RoHS and WEEE WEEE compliant.
    - --
    Adam Piggott, Proprietor, Proactive Services (Computing).
    http://www.proactiveservices.co.uk/

    Please replace dot invalid with dot uk to email me.
    Apply personally for PGP public key.
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
    Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32)

    iD8DBQFGQIxG7uRVdtPsXDkRArrkAJ49xdYIGwBv7N7CUd/sSd693zbQTACeKMbL
    QIpUuuVxaQ5NNXXg+XrQZj0=
    =pSEu
    -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
     
    Adam Piggott, May 8, 2007
    #8
  9. News Reader

    Graham Guest

    "News Reader" <> wrote in message
    news:f1onnt$q80$...
    >
    > Hi,
    >
    > Can I get peoples opinions on and suggestions of lay / informal remedies
    > to intermittent faults.
    >
    > My /one suggestion is "bouncing", such as with a soft surface - e.g. a
    > bed. "Grasp device at one end, 'bounce' onto and off soft surface. Plug in
    > and try again".
    >


    In the early '90s we were supplying BBC model B's to Pharmacies.
    The PSU suffered from dry-joints and the official trouble-shooting
    guide said something like this.

    "If the computer fails to start up, lift up the entire machine to a height
    of four inches above the bench, and let go"

    --
    Graham.
    %Profound_observation%
     
    Graham, May 8, 2007
    #9
  10. On Tue, 8 May 2007 15:56:51 +0100, "Graham" <> wrote:

    |!
    |!"News Reader" <> wrote in message
    |!news:f1onnt$q80$...
    |!>
    |!> Hi,
    |!>
    |!> Can I get peoples opinions on and suggestions of lay / informal remedies
    |!> to intermittent faults.
    |!>
    |!> My /one suggestion is "bouncing", such as with a soft surface - e.g. a
    |!> bed. "Grasp device at one end, 'bounce' onto and off soft surface. Plug in
    |!> and try again".
    |!>
    |!
    |!In the early '90s we were supplying BBC model B's to Pharmacies.
    |!The PSU suffered from dry-joints and the official trouble-shooting
    |!guide said something like this.
    |!
    |!"If the computer fails to start up, lift up the entire machine to a height
    |!of four inches above the bench, and let go"

    I saw this when I was in the RAF. There was a very *large* Senior Tech
    Electrical who was a whizz on the Comet aircraft. When he had a snag he
    told his little SAC to go and jump by the ??th window on the right/left as
    the case may be. The SAC did that and came back. If the snag was still
    there the above was repeated. If the snag was still there he heaved
    himself out of the Engineers chair trundled down the Comet and jumped by
    the ??window on the left/right. The Comet shuddered. The snag
    disappeared. It was a sticking relay. He knew where every relay was and
    cleared them as above.
    --
    Dave Fawthrop <sf hyphenologist.co.uk> 165 *Free* SF ebooks.
    165 Sci Fi books on CDROM, from Project Gutenberg
    http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Main_Page Completely Free to any
    address in the UK. Contact me on the *above* email address.
     
    Dave Fawthrop, May 8, 2007
    #10
  11. News Reader

    DH Guest

    DH wrote:
    > News Reader wrote:
    >> Hi,
    >>
    >> Can I get peoples opinions on and suggestions of lay / informal
    >> remedies to intermittent faults.
    >>
    >> My /one suggestion is "bouncing", such as with a soft surface - e.g. a
    >> bed. "Grasp device at one end, 'bounce' onto and off soft surface.
    >> Plug in and try again".
    >>
    >> Thanks.
    >>
    >>
    >> Best wishes,
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> News Reader
    >>

    >
    > Hit it with a "virtual" stick, much better than threast.
    >
    > DH



    Actually I used to work for Decca in the early 70s at Bridgnorth making colour
    TVs. As part of the chassis line test procedure, we were instructed to hit the
    metalwork of the chassis with large rubber mallets, specifically to show up
    any faults.

    A stick ain't far off....
     
    DH, May 8, 2007
    #11
  12. News Reader

    PeterC Guest

    On Tue, 08 May 2007 15:42:15 +0100, Adam Piggott wrote:

    > May I counter-suggest the Baton of Health


    Should be Heralth half the time.
    --
    Peter.
    If you can do it today, you didn't put off enough yesterday.
     
    PeterC, May 8, 2007
    #12
  13. News Reader

    PeterC Guest

    On Tue, 8 May 2007 15:56:51 +0100, Graham wrote:

    > "News Reader" <> wrote in message
    > news:f1onnt$q80$...
    >>
    >> Hi,
    >>
    >> Can I get peoples opinions on and suggestions of lay / informal remedies
    >> to intermittent faults.
    >>
    >> My /one suggestion is "bouncing", such as with a soft surface - e.g. a
    >> bed. "Grasp device at one end, 'bounce' onto and off soft surface. Plug in
    >> and try again".
    >>

    >
    > In the early '90s we were supplying BBC model B's to Pharmacies.
    > The PSU suffered from dry-joints and the official trouble-shooting
    > guide said something like this.
    >
    > "If the computer fails to start up, lift up the entire machine to a height
    > of four inches above the bench, and let go"

    So you hadn't gone metric?
    --
    Peter.
    If you can do it today, you didn't put off enough yesterday.
     
    PeterC, May 8, 2007
    #13
  14. News Reader

    PeterC Guest

    On Tue, 8 May 2007 12:49:37 +0100, M. J. Powell wrote:

    > In message <>, Keith Willcocks
    > <> writes
    >>
    >>"cybuerke" <> wrote in message
    >>news:f1p361$sic$2surf.net...
    >>> News Reader wrote:
    >>>> Hi,
    >>>>
    >>>> Can I get peoples opinions on and suggestions of lay / informal
    >>>> remedies to intermittent faults.
    >>>>
    >>>> My /one suggestion is "bouncing", such as with a soft surface - e.g.
    >>>> a bed. "Grasp device at one end, 'bounce' onto and off soft surface.
    >>>> Plug in and try again".
    >>>
    >>> How very refined.... Much less drastic than the common person's "Give it
    >>> a bloody good kicking."
    >>>
    >>> If urgency isn't an issue, I've found that that repeated nagging with
    >>> escalating threats sometimes serves.
    >>>

    >>
    >>
    >>The problem lies in the frustration circuit which is present in all
    >>electronic equipment. It reduces performance in direct proportion to the
    >>perceived frustration of the user. You should try sitting back with a cup
    >>of tea and pretending that you don't really want to go on line anyway.

    >
    > As a former maintenance engineer I was completely convinced that a fault
    > occupied a point in space. If you replaced faulty equipment then the new
    > equipment showed the same fault and the old gear was perfectly
    > serviceable.
    >
    > Mike


    It's quite a large space and if also occupied by said me the fault is often
    displaced slightly to just outside the equipment.
    Could also be time-based.
    --
    Peter.
    If you can do it today, you didn't put off enough yesterday.
     
    PeterC, May 8, 2007
    #14
  15. News Reader

    Phil B Guest

    "Brian A" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Tue, 08 May 2007 08:35:28 GMT, DH <> wrote:
    >
    >>News Reader wrote:
    >>> Hi,
    >>>
    >>> Can I get peoples opinions on and suggestions of lay / informal remedies
    >>> to
    >>> intermittent faults.
    >>>
    >>> My /one suggestion is "bouncing", such as with a soft surface - e.g. a
    >>> bed.
    >>> "Grasp device at one end, 'bounce' onto and off soft surface. Plug in
    >>> and
    >>> try again".
    >>>
    >>> Thanks.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> Best wishes,
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> News Reader
    >>>
    >>>

    >>
    >>Hit it with a "virtual" stick, much better than threast.
    >>
    >>DH

    > Intermiitent faults can often be due to soldered joint or component
    > problems.
    > These often depend on temperature. The particular method(s) I have
    > used have depended on the fault type, these are:-
    > 1. Tap printed circuit boards, in various places, with the non-metalic
    > part of a screwdriver. This method can be used, gently, on thermionic
    > devices, such as on the neck of a CRT, if that is suspected.
    > 2. If intermittent noise, try squirting 'freezer' aerosol on
    > individual components, that you have homed in on, by studying the
    > circuit/making measurements - i.e. standard fault finding techniques.
    > 3. Use a hairdryer on suspect areas, to raise the temperature, if you
    > suspect a temperature driven fault.
    > 4.Put it on 'soak' - i.e. give it time, get on with something else but
    > kep an eye on the performance of the device under test.
    >
    > If the fault fails to materialise then, at least, clean up the
    > circuit boards and make sure any switches etc.are cleaned, where
    > appropriate. Hope this helps!
    >


    All those are good.
    I worked in a mainframe design lab in the 1960s using TTL and wrapped
    backplane joints. Other techniques we used were:
    - look for dry joints - any not shiny and with a dusty appearance - and
    resolder them.
    - wiggle all the wrapped wiring with a stiff brush,
    - alter the supply voltage (but within limits). TTL had a tolerance of
    4.75 to 5.25 volts but I liked to weed out anything which failed if I took
    it down to 4.3 volts.
    - flex or twist the printed circuit boards slightly - a real killer for
    intermittents but take care of high voltages and static sensitive stuff.
    - rattle all the boards. After visiting and fixing one troublesome
    system my boss asked me whether I'd rattled the boards. I had, with a
    plastic connector cover, but I was reprimanded for not using a hammer. On
    a subsequent occasion I was again reprimanded for not physically breaking
    any boards with the said hammer!!
    Not sure that's particularly good if you want to rely on a warranty though.

    Hope that helps.

    Phil

    > Remove 'no_spam_' from email address.
     
    Phil B, May 8, 2007
    #15
  16. News Reader

    M. J. Powell Guest

    In message <f1q2vt$sv6$>, Graham <>
    writes
    >
    >"News Reader" <> wrote in message
    >news:f1onnt$q80$...
    >>
    >> Hi,
    >>
    >> Can I get peoples opinions on and suggestions of lay / informal remedies
    >> to intermittent faults.
    >>
    >> My /one suggestion is "bouncing", such as with a soft surface - e.g. a
    >> bed. "Grasp device at one end, 'bounce' onto and off soft surface. Plug in
    >> and try again".
    >>

    >
    >In the early '90s we were supplying BBC model B's to Pharmacies.
    >The PSU suffered from dry-joints and the official trouble-shooting
    >guide said something like this.
    >
    >"If the computer fails to start up, lift up the entire machine to a height
    >of four inches above the bench, and let go"


    The GPO Pulse & Bar generator had, in the manual, a sentence which said
    "It is quite possible that every component will test within spec but the
    equipment fail to work."

    And no further advice.

    Mike
    --
    M.J.Powell
     
    M. J. Powell, May 8, 2007
    #16
  17. News Reader

    News Reader Guest

    "Phil B" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    > "Brian A" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> On Tue, 08 May 2007 08:35:28 GMT, DH <> wrote:
    >>
    >>>News Reader wrote:
    >>>> Hi,
    >>>>
    >>>> Can I get peoples opinions on and suggestions of lay / informal
    >>>> remedies to
    >>>> intermittent faults.
    >>>>
    >>>> My /one suggestion is "bouncing", such as with a soft surface - e.g. a
    >>>> bed.
    >>>> "Grasp device at one end, 'bounce' onto and off soft surface. Plug in
    >>>> and
    >>>> try again".
    >>>>
    >>>> Thanks.
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> Best wishes,
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> News Reader
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>>Hit it with a "virtual" stick, much better than threast.
    >>>
    >>>DH

    >> Intermiitent faults can often be due to soldered joint or component
    >> problems.
    >> These often depend on temperature. The particular method(s) I have
    >> used have depended on the fault type, these are:-
    >> 1. Tap printed circuit boards, in various places, with the non-metalic
    >> part of a screwdriver. This method can be used, gently, on thermionic
    >> devices, such as on the neck of a CRT, if that is suspected.
    >> 2. If intermittent noise, try squirting 'freezer' aerosol on
    >> individual components, that you have homed in on, by studying the
    >> circuit/making measurements - i.e. standard fault finding techniques.
    >> 3. Use a hairdryer on suspect areas, to raise the temperature, if you
    >> suspect a temperature driven fault.
    >> 4.Put it on 'soak' - i.e. give it time, get on with something else but
    >> kep an eye on the performance of the device under test.
    >>
    >> If the fault fails to materialise then, at least, clean up the
    >> circuit boards and make sure any switches etc.are cleaned, where
    >> appropriate. Hope this helps!
    >>

    >
    > All those are good.
    > I worked in a mainframe design lab in the 1960s using TTL and wrapped
    > backplane joints. Other techniques we used were:
    > - look for dry joints - any not shiny and with a dusty appearance - and
    > resolder them.
    > - wiggle all the wrapped wiring with a stiff brush,
    > - alter the supply voltage (but within limits). TTL had a tolerance of
    > 4.75 to 5.25 volts but I liked to weed out anything which failed if I took
    > it down to 4.3 volts.
    > - flex or twist the printed circuit boards slightly - a real killer for
    > intermittents but take care of high voltages and static sensitive stuff.
    > - rattle all the boards. After visiting and fixing one troublesome
    > system my boss asked me whether I'd rattled the boards. I had, with a
    > plastic connector cover, but I was reprimanded for not using a hammer.
    > On a subsequent occasion I was again reprimanded for not physically
    > breaking any boards with the said hammer!!
    > Not sure that's particularly good if you want to rely on a warranty
    > though.
    >
    > Hope that helps.
    >
    > Phil
    >
    >> Remove 'no_spam_' from email address.

    >
    >
    >
    >



    Hi,

    On a slightly more serious note... most of that certainly sounds very good.

    Not so sure about the employers fervent hammer fixation... but otherwise all
    sounds good :) .

    I think with more shock sensitive equipment, or anything you wish to shock
    but without such direct impact or abrasive contact, the bouncing method is
    quite a good intermediary step. Obviously, if that fails, you can always
    escalate to the higher impact effect of knocking into or "bouncing" or
    dropping onto a hard surface.

    Of course, the reality is that the proper approach, is to use test equipment
    and proper fault testing methods.

    However, that is not always possible, and equally, you may be aware of the
    faulty component and just be trying to prolong its operation. Hard drives
    interestingly whilst hating high g shock, often enough seem to appreciate or
    rejuvenate on a middling motion effect (bouncing, etc.).

    All good fun.


    Best wishes,




    News Reader
     
    News Reader, May 8, 2007
    #17
  18. News Reader

    News Reader Guest

    "Dr Teeth" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >I was just thinking how wonderful life was, when "News Reader"
    > <> opened his gob and said:
    >
    >>Can I get peoples opinions on and suggestions of lay / informal remedies
    >>to
    >>intermittent faults.

    >
    > Bang your head against the wall and stick your tongue in a mains
    > socket until the problem does not recur, or becomes permanent (i.e.
    > non-intermittent).
    >
    > --
    > Cheers,
    >
    > Guy
    >
    > ** Stress - the condition brought about by having to
    > ** resist the temptation to beat the living daylights
    > ** out of someone who richly deserves it.



    Hi,


    Hmmm.... not sure if I have totally got this one understood correctly... but
    it sounds good :)


    Best wishes,



    News Reader
     
    News Reader, May 8, 2007
    #18
  19. News Reader

    Dr Teeth Guest

    I was just thinking how wonderful life was, when "Keith Willcocks"
    <> opened his gob and said:

    >
    >The problem lies in the frustration circuit which is present in all
    >electronic equipment.


    The OP did not actually say that the fault was with electrical
    equipment...it could have been with himself!!!

    --
    Cheers,

    Guy

    ** Stress - the condition brought about by having to
    ** resist the temptation to beat the living daylights
    ** out of someone who richly deserves it.
     
    Dr Teeth, May 8, 2007
    #19
  20. On Tue, 8 May 2007, News Reader wrote:

    >
    > "Dr Teeth" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >>I was just thinking how wonderful life was, when "News Reader"
    >> <> opened his gob and said:
    >>
    >>>Can I get peoples opinions on and suggestions of lay / informal
    >>>remedies to intermittent faults.

    >>
    >> Bang your head against the wall and stick your tongue in a mains
    >> socket until the problem does not recur, or becomes permanent (i.e.
    >> non-intermittent).
    >>

    >
    > Hmmm.... not sure if I have totally got this one understood
    > correctly... but it sounds good :)
    >
    >


    It may sound good, but it will taste out of this world

    Robert
    --
    La grenouille songe..dans son château d'eau
    Links and things http://rmstar.blogspot.com/
     
    Robert Marshall, May 8, 2007
    #20
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