Interesting developments in VM land

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by thingy, Apr 3, 2006.

  1. thingy

    thingy Guest

    thingy, Apr 3, 2006
    #1
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  2. thingy wrote:
    > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/04/03/ms_virtual_free/
    >
    > Of course MS slips again on delivery, so the CPUS are there (June this
    > year) and OSS (Xen & RH) will be shipping software to use it, possibly a
    > year earlier then MS.....
    >
    > regards
    >
    > Thing

    hahaha

    you can't help yourself, can you?

    :-D

    R
     
    Rimu Atkinson, Apr 3, 2006
    #2
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  3. thingy

    Steven H Guest

    Hello thingy,

    you make it sound like virtual server is not even out yet and is being delayed
    - the artical does give that impression. virtual server has been out for
    a while

    what they are talking about is a new architecture of Virtual Server whereby
    a lot of the load of doing 'vemmy things' is done by the hardware and not
    by the virtualized enviroment. i dont fully understand it but the current
    virtual server model has something to do with emulating 'ring zero' (i take
    it a kernal likes to run here) while in realeaty its running at 'ring three'
    of the host system. so multiple virtualized operating systems can be ran
    on the same hardware.

    ----------------
    Steven H

    the madGeek

    > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/04/03/ms_virtual_free/
    >
    > Of course MS slips again on delivery, so the CPUS are there (June this
    > year) and OSS (Xen & RH) will be shipping software to use it, possibly
    > a year earlier then MS.....
    >
    > regards
    >
    > Thing
    >
     
    Steven H, Apr 4, 2006
    #3
  4. "thingy" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/04/03/ms_virtual_free/
    >
    > Of course MS slips again on delivery, so the CPUS are there (June this
    > year) and OSS (Xen & RH) will be shipping software to use it, possibly a
    > year earlier then MS.....
    >
    > regards
    >
    > Thing


    Personally, I tend not to rely on The Register for in-depth or in-telligent
    analysis of IT events and announcements :)

    For those who are interested the Virtual Server 2005 "stuff" is at:

    http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserversystem/virtualserver/evaluation/news/default.mspx

    and there is a Powerpoint which touches on Hypervisor technology at:

    http://download.microsoft.com/downl...4e74-92a3-088782200fe7/TWSE05008_WinHEC05.ppt


    Brett Roberts
    Microsoft NZ
     
    Brett Roberts, Apr 4, 2006
    #4
  5. thingy

    thingy Guest

    Brett Roberts wrote:
    > "thingy" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >
    >>http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/04/03/ms_virtual_free/
    >>
    >>Of course MS slips again on delivery, so the CPUS are there (June this
    >>year) and OSS (Xen & RH) will be shipping software to use it, possibly a
    >>year earlier then MS.....
    >>
    >>regards
    >>
    >>Thing

    >
    >
    > Personally, I tend not to rely on The Register for in-depth or in-telligent
    > analysis of IT events and announcements :)
    >
    > For those who are interested the Virtual Server 2005 "stuff" is at:
    >
    > http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserversystem/virtualserver/evaluation/news/default.mspx
    >
    > and there is a Powerpoint which touches on Hypervisor technology at:
    >
    > http://download.microsoft.com/downl...4e74-92a3-088782200fe7/TWSE05008_WinHEC05.ppt
    >
    >
    > Brett Roberts
    > Microsoft NZ
    >
    >


    lol....and you expect me to rely on MS?

    "queue tui add"

    regards

    Thing
     
    thingy, Apr 4, 2006
    #5
  6. thingy

    thingy Guest

    Steven H wrote:
    > Hello thingy,
    >
    > you make it sound like virtual server is not even out yet and is being
    > delayed - the artical does give that impression. virtual server has been
    > out for a while
    >
    > what they are talking about is a new architecture of Virtual Server
    > whereby a lot of the load of doing 'vemmy things' is done by the
    > hardware and not by the virtualized enviroment. i dont fully understand
    > it but the current virtual server model has something to do with
    > emulating 'ring zero' (i take it a kernal likes to run here) while in
    > realeaty its running at 'ring three' of the host system. so multiple
    > virtualized operating systems can be ran on the same hardware.
    >
    > ----------------
    > Steven H
    >
    > the madGeek
    >
    >> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/04/03/ms_virtual_free/
    >>
    >> Of course MS slips again on delivery, so the CPUS are there (June this
    >> year) and OSS (Xen & RH) will be shipping software to use it, possibly
    >> a year earlier then MS.....
    >>
    >> regards
    >>
    >> Thing
    >>

    >
    >


    It is also a q of efficiency I believe. ie running a vm situation means
    a performance penalty anything from 5 to 20%.

    The new CPUs allow more/better virtualisation in hardware, so less of a
    hit, be interesting to see which of the new generation of CPUs is better
    AMD or Xeon.....

    regards

    Thing
     
    thingy, Apr 4, 2006
    #6
  7. thingy

    AD. Guest

    Hypervisor?

    My rough understanding:

    Xen has always used a hypervisor, hence the superior performance over
    something like VMware which trys to emulate an entire virtual machine.

    Traditionally on x86 platforms though, there was no native support for
    hypervisor based virtualisation. Xen required changes to the guest
    kernels to run. These changes were designed to intercept the few x86
    instructions that could be hypervised and translate them.

    But new hardware designs from AMD and Intel (Pacifica and Vanderpool I
    think) remove the old limitations from the hardware. This means that
    VMware and Virtual Server can now do hypervisor based virtualisation,
    and that Xen can now do it with needed changes to the guest OSes.

    Good news all round. VMware and Virtual Server can now run faster (with
    the release of their new hypervisor versions), and Xen can now run
    unmodified guests.

    --
    Cheers
    Anton
     
    AD., Apr 4, 2006
    #7
  8. thingy

    thingy Guest

    Rimu Atkinson wrote:
    > thingy wrote:
    >
    >> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/04/03/ms_virtual_free/
    >>
    >> Of course MS slips again on delivery, so the CPUS are there (June this
    >> year) and OSS (Xen & RH) will be shipping software to use it, possibly
    >> a year earlier then MS.....
    >>
    >> regards
    >>
    >> Thing

    >
    > hahaha
    >
    > you can't help yourself, can you?
    >
    > :-D
    >
    > R


    heh.....sometimes I just bite (re earlier posts on OSS "slippage")

    There is some justification in time to market though, ie there are signs
    that the hardware is being delayed because MS cannot keep up with its OS
    shipping dates with the new features installed. So Linux and other OSes
    are being penalised because Intel does a deal with MS and delays its new
    toys until MS is ready.......probably helps AMD to keep up (or get
    ahead) no end.....

    regards

    Thing
     
    thingy, Apr 4, 2006
    #8
  9. thingy

    Shane Guest

    thingy wrote:

    > Brett Roberts wrote:
    >> "thingy" <> wrote in message
    >> news:...
    >>
    >>>http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/04/03/ms_virtual_free/
    >>>
    >>>Of course MS slips again on delivery, so the CPUS are there (June this
    >>>year) and OSS (Xen & RH) will be shipping software to use it, possibly a
    >>>year earlier then MS.....
    >>>
    >>>regards
    >>>
    >>>Thing

    >>
    >>
    >> Personally, I tend not to rely on The Register for in-depth or
    >> in-telligent
    >> analysis of IT events and announcements :)
    >>
    >> For those who are interested the Virtual Server 2005 "stuff" is at:
    >>
    >>

    http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserversystem/virtualserver/evaluation/news/default.mspx
    >>
    >> and there is a Powerpoint which touches on Hypervisor technology at:
    >>
    >>

    http://download.microsoft.com/downl...4e74-92a3-088782200fe7/TWSE05008_WinHEC05.ppt
    >>
    >>
    >> Brett Roberts
    >> Microsoft NZ
    >>
    >>

    >
    > lol....and you expect me to rely on MS?
    >
    > "queue tui add"
    >
    > regards
    >
    > Thing


    The link he provides says the same thing the register said....
    http://www.microsoft.com/windowsser...er/evaluation/news/bulletins/vs05pricing.mspx
    Right down to the delay,
    As previously announced, Virtual Server 2005 R2 service pack 1 is scheduled
    for a beta release in Q2 and general availability in early 2007.

    the partnership with xen
    To foster interoperability of virtualization technologies, Microsoft
    continues to license royalty-free the Virtual Hard Disk (VHD) format of
    Microsoft Virtual Server. There are now more than 45 vendors signed up in
    this royalty-free license program, including Akimbi, Brocade, Diskeeper,
    Fujitsu-Siemens, Network Appliance, Platespin, Softricity, Virtual Iron,
    and XenSource.

    the linux support
    Starting today, customers can consolidate their Linux-based applications on
    Microsoft Virtual Server 2005 R2 and receive 24-hour support from
    Microsoft. In order to improve the interoperability of Linux guest
    operating systems and Virtual Server 2005 R2, Microsoft is releasing
    virtual machine add-ins that can be installed in Linux guests to help
    improve the following capabilities:

    And the addins
    The virtual machine add-ins are available as a free download, and are
    supported for an initial set of nine Linux distributions listed below:

    Enterprise distributions:
    Red Hat Enterprise Linux 2.1 (update 6)
    Red Hat Enterprise Linux 3 (update 6)
    Red Hat Enterprise Linux 4
    Novell’s SuSE Linux Enterprise Server 9

    Standard distributions:
    Red Hat Linux 7.3
    Red Hat Linux 9.0
    Novell’s SuSE Linux 9.2
    Novell’s SuSE Linux 9.3
    Novell’s SuSE Linux 10.0


    (Id stay with the register though.. )
    --
    Rule 6: There is no Rule 6.
     
    Shane, Apr 4, 2006
    #9
  10. thingy

    Steven H Guest

    Hello thingy,

    > It is also a q of efficiency I believe. ie running a vm situation
    > means a performance penalty anything from 5 to 20%.


    i am not quite sure how much of a perf penalty there is but considering all
    the 'ring swapping' that goes on to make virtualized systems feel at home
    i wouldnt be surprised if there is a high penalty.

    this design is one of the reasons behind putting the virtualization on the
    chip, mix that with knowledge of whether a os is running on a virtualized
    machine or not and you could get some pretty decent speed. the reasoning
    behind the virtualized system knowing its running virtualized or not is because
    it can optomise calls the kernal makes - it can either call the hardware
    or call the host kernal to do a job on the virtualized kernals behaf.

    ----------------
    Steven H

    the madGeek

    > Steven H wrote:
    >
    >> Hello thingy,
    >>
    >> you make it sound like virtual server is not even out yet and is
    >> being delayed - the artical does give that impression. virtual server
    >> has been out for a while
    >>
    >> what they are talking about is a new architecture of Virtual Server
    >> whereby a lot of the load of doing 'vemmy things' is done by the
    >> hardware and not by the virtualized enviroment. i dont fully
    >> understand it but the current virtual server model has something to
    >> do with emulating 'ring zero' (i take it a kernal likes to run here)
    >> while in realeaty its running at 'ring three' of the host system. so
    >> multiple virtualized operating systems can be ran on the same
    >> hardware.
    >>
    >> ----------------
    >> Steven H
    >> the madGeek
    >>
    >>> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/04/03/ms_virtual_free/
    >>>
    >>> Of course MS slips again on delivery, so the CPUS are there (June
    >>> this year) and OSS (Xen & RH) will be shipping software to use it,
    >>> possibly a year earlier then MS.....
    >>>
    >>> regards
    >>>
    >>> Thing
    >>>

    > It is also a q of efficiency I believe. ie running a vm situation
    > means a performance penalty anything from 5 to 20%.
    >
    > The new CPUs allow more/better virtualisation in hardware, so less of
    > a hit, be interesting to see which of the new generation of CPUs is
    > better AMD or Xeon.....
    >
    > regards
    >
    > Thing
    >
     
    Steven H, Apr 4, 2006
    #10
  11. thingy

    AD. Guest

    The virtualisation performance varies a lot depending on the approach
    taken. Here are some oldish benchmarks:

    http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/Research/SRG/netos/xen/performance.html

    They are Linux only but they compare some different approaches: Native
    vs Xen vs Vmware 3.2 (old version due to newer licenses preventing
    publication), and User Mode Linux.

    As you can see Xen (the hypervisor approach) doesn't drop much below
    native performance - whereas Vmware and UML really suffer on some
    benchmarks. This gives a somewhat rough idea of what should be possible
    for Virtual Server and VMware once adapted for the newer hardware.

    I for one welcome our new virtualisation overlords ;)
     
    AD., Apr 5, 2006
    #11
  12. thingy

    Steven H Guest

    Hello AD.,

    > I for one welcome our new virtualisation overlords ;)


    lol..

    i like the whole idea of virtualization, go into any moderatly sized data
    center and find out why. its absolutely crazy, racks and racks of servers
    crunching away (well crunching away 10% of the time).

    if you can load up some of your 'lower end' applications into some virtualized
    enviroments you can save some big bucks. save some big bucks for some metal
    that runs your big apps.

    that being said, how much stuff does the likes of a dedicated database server
    have to do before all its cpu's are peaked at 100% could you virtualize some
    big ass databases ?

    ----------------
    Steven H

    the madGeek
     
    Steven H, Apr 5, 2006
    #12
  13. thingy

    AD. Guest

    I reckon there are still some advantages even if you only have one
    virtual machine running on a physical server.

    That virtual server is now (somewhat*) decoupled from its hardware. You
    can shut it down and bring it back up on different hardware without
    much bother.

    * depending on the approach taken.

    All sorts of cool possibilities. It has lots of implications for stuff
    like migrations, disaster recovery, or even juggling virtual servers
    around to balance out and maximise available hardware resources.

    eg on Xen (I'm not up with the latest features of the other systems),
    if you use a cluster aware network filesystem for the virtual servers
    data, a running virtual server can be transferred from one host machine
    to another on the fly without it even realising.
     
    AD., Apr 5, 2006
    #13
  14. thingy

    Steven H Guest

    Hello AD.,

    > a running virtual server can be transferred from one host
    > machine to another on the fly without it even realising.


    shit thats cool..

    what if ...

    all the diffrent 'chunks' of an operating system are each compartmentalized
    in their own vm ?

    the disk i/o, network stack, user i/o (keyboard / mouse), kernel, and user
    enviroment could all be in their own vm. it could mean that you could replace
    the kernel without a system reboot - just pause the vm's load the new kernel,
    resume the vm's

    that would be ideal for mission critical (run a nuclear power plant) type
    software

    of course you will have the communication issues involved, sending messages
    from one vm to the other but that could be gotten around by using some sort
    of enhanced tcp.

    ----------------
    Steven H

    the madGeek

    > I reckon there are still some advantages even if you only have one
    > virtual machine running on a physical server.
    >
    > That virtual server is now (somewhat*) decoupled from its hardware.
    > You can shut it down and bring it back up on different hardware
    > without much bother.
    >
    > * depending on the approach taken.
    >
    > All sorts of cool possibilities. It has lots of implications for stuff
    > like migrations, disaster recovery, or even juggling virtual servers
    > around to balance out and maximise available hardware resources.
    >
    > eg on Xen (I'm not up with the latest features of the other systems),
    > if you use a cluster aware network filesystem for the virtual servers
    > data, a running virtual server can be transferred from one host
    > machine to another on the fly without it even realising.
    >
     
    Steven H, Apr 5, 2006
    #14
  15. thingy

    AD. Guest

    AD., Apr 5, 2006
    #15
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