Infrastructure/QOS

Discussion in 'UK VOIP' started by relaxandchillout@gmail.com, Aug 4, 2007.

  1. Guest

    Hi,

    I work for a UK charity (We currently have three small offices where I
    could not conceive of more than two VOIP 'lines' at each) we do also
    have a lot of home based broadband enabled users.

    I am currently experimenting with a single line Camrivox Flexor 151 /
    Gradwell out over a Draytek Vigor 2800VG latest firmware QOS enabled
    (Manual says when Qos enabled prioritises SIP by default) to Zen
    Internet on a 256u/512down ADSL circuit and then on to Gradwell. The
    Draytek/Zen/ADSL link is shared with typical Broadband applications
    like surfing and email + the occasional bit of downloading. Voice
    performance is 'not bad' but occasionally get 'words missing' which I
    suppose could be network packet loss. Primarily the reason we are
    interested in VOIP is to save money on Small Office to PSTN UK land-
    line calls (Each office currently spends about £2k/year to BT 75% of
    which is to UK PSTN national numbers!)

    Anyhow we have just received a grant to spend on infrastructure and I
    would like to 'spend some capital' to save ongoing running (Dreaded BT
    phone bill! costs). How would you recommend I spend this money to
    optimise our VOIP experience (and to minimise things such as packet
    loss and other drop outs)

    Should I (for example):

    1/ Spend it on CISCO kit (to replace the Draytek's) - We may have
    access to some refurbished but fully supported units?

    2/ Change ISP to somebody who is 'best' at prioritising SIP traffic?
    Who might that be?

    3/ Upgrade the ADSL to MAX e.g. 512up/8M down or even ADSL2?

    4/ Implement duplicate ADSL circuits (one for VOIP, one for everything
    else?)

    5/ Going for a more 'homogeneous' ISP environment (We currently use
    plusNET, Zen and Daemon)

    All of the above? none of the above? etc....

    If you had a few thousand pounds to 'improve' your VOIP QOS (From
    handset to UK PSTN national numbers) via infrastructure improvements,
    where would you spend the money? What would be the priority as far as
    QOS is concerend?

    Many thanks,
    Stef
     
    , Aug 4, 2007
    #1
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  2. Tim Guest

    wrote:
    >
    > 1/ Spend it on CISCO kit (to replace the Draytek's) - We may have
    > access to some refurbished but fully supported units?


    Then you have to spend $$$$ on a cisco expert to set it up for you.

    > 2/ Change ISP to somebody who is 'best' at prioritising SIP traffic?
    > Who might that be?


    The ISP can't do anything about your upstream traffic, and this is what
    is likely to cause you the most problems.


    > 3/ Upgrade the ADSL to MAX e.g. 512up/8M down or even ADSL2?


    Max will give more upstream. Sometimes it makes the line more unreliable

    > 4/ Implement duplicate ADSL circuits (one for VOIP, one for everything
    > else?)


    Works nicely, but is operati


    > 5/ Going for a more 'homogeneous' ISP environment (We currently use
    > plusNET, Zen and Daemon)


    Would maybe help a bit.


    >
    > If you had a few thousand pounds to 'improve' your VOIP QOS (From
    > handset to UK PSTN national numbers) via infrastructure improvements,
    > where would you spend the money? What would be the priority as far as
    > QOS is concerend?
    >


    My favourite Qos product is the Converged Access CTX-1000. I may be
    biased because the company I work for holds them in stock. But they
    work really nicely.

    They are a bridged mode device that you just slot in between your ADSL
    router and your main network switch.

    The other thing I would do is swap the the router for one that is based
    on a AR7 chipset (such as the Zyxel P660R-61C) as these hold ADSL line
    sync best on max lines.

    I don't recommend any other Zyxel router for SIP traffic though.

    The first thing to do is to graph the traffic throughput on your lines
    (using some like MRTG, or cacti) and the latency/packet loss (using
    smokeping). This will give an idea about your usage patterns and maybe
    spot any faults on the lines.


    Tim
     
    Tim, Aug 4, 2007
    #2
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  3. In article <>,
    <> wrote:
    >Hi,
    >
    >I work for a UK charity (We currently have three small offices where I
    >could not conceive of more than two VOIP 'lines' at each) we do also
    >have a lot of home based broadband enabled users.
    >
    >I am currently experimenting with a single line Camrivox Flexor 151 /
    >Gradwell out over a Draytek Vigor 2800VG latest firmware QOS enabled
    >(Manual says when Qos enabled prioritises SIP by default) to Zen
    >Internet on a 256u/512down ADSL circuit and then on to Gradwell. The
    >Draytek/Zen/ADSL link is shared with typical Broadband applications
    >like surfing and email + the occasional bit of downloading. Voice
    >performance is 'not bad' but occasionally get 'words missing' which I
    >suppose could be network packet loss. Primarily the reason we are
    >interested in VOIP is to save money on Small Office to PSTN UK land-
    >line calls (Each office currently spends about £2k/year to BT 75% of
    >which is to UK PSTN national numbers!)
    >
    >Anyhow we have just received a grant to spend on infrastructure and I
    >would like to 'spend some capital' to save ongoing running (Dreaded BT
    >phone bill! costs). How would you recommend I spend this money to
    >optimise our VOIP experience (and to minimise things such as packet
    >loss and other drop outs)
    >
    >Should I (for example):
    >
    >1/ Spend it on CISCO kit (to replace the Draytek's) - We may have
    >access to some refurbished but fully supported units?


    You won't gain any "better" QoS.

    >2/ Change ISP to somebody who is 'best' at prioritising SIP traffic?
    >Who might that be?


    If you find it, let me know ;-)

    >3/ Upgrade the ADSL to MAX e.g. 512up/8M down or even ADSL2?


    Definately.

    >4/ Implement duplicate ADSL circuits (one for VOIP, one for everything
    >else?)


    Absolutely.

    >5/ Going for a more 'homogeneous' ISP environment (We currently use
    >plusNET, Zen and Daemon)


    That will help if you do a lot of direct office to office connections
    VPNs, etc. Your VoIP traffic is probably not going directly, but via a
    Gradwell server, so it's less important.

    >All of the above? none of the above? etc....


    Upgrade to a Max service. That will give you more "headroom".

    But do be aware that you can only efectively apply traffic shaping/QoS
    to outbound traffic. There is nothing you can really do to inbound
    traffic, because once it's been clocked over the wire, and arrived
    at the router, it's too late for the router to do anything with it,
    other than to pass it through. On the outboumd side, it can buffer up a
    small amount of data and prioritise VoIP packets, (but it can only store
    so much if it gets 160 byte VoIP packets and 1500 byte email packets,
    you quickly run out of time if you store too many!) So QoS on a router
    will do the right thing when you send a large email, upload big data,
    etc. but will struggle to make any difference when someone downloads a
    huge email/file/web page...

    So a better solution is to get a completely separate 2nd BT line installed
    and use it purely for VoIP. You don't even need QoS then. You might
    even be able to front both routers with a 3rd router with 3 Ethernet
    interfaces on to automagically work out the right circuit to put traffic
    on, and fail-over to one line should the other go down - I've done this
    with Linux routers, but don't know any commercial ones that can do this.

    But either way, you're still at the mercy of the ISP that carries your
    data (and really BT before it gets to the ISP), and whatever networks
    are between your ISP and the telco. Telco (Gradwell) might be able to
    tell you who they have the "best" peering with from that point of view,
    so you can base your choice on that, but simply do a few traceroute
    from each site on a different ISP to get a feel for it yourself.

    >If you had a few thousand pounds to 'improve' your VOIP QOS (From
    >handset to UK PSTN national numbers) via infrastructure improvements,
    >where would you spend the money? What would be the priority as far as
    >QOS is concerend?


    A 2nd, dedicated ADSL line.

    Gordon
     
    Gordon Henderson, Aug 4, 2007
    #3
  4. Gordon Henderson <> wrote:
    > But do be aware that you can only efectively apply traffic shaping/QoS
    > to outbound traffic. There is nothing you can really do to inbound
    > traffic, because once it's been clocked over the wire, and arrived
    > at the router, it's too late for the router to do anything with it,
    > other than to pass it through. On the outboumd side, it can buffer up a
    > small amount of data and prioritise VoIP packets, (but it can only store
    > so much if it gets 160 byte VoIP packets and 1500 byte email packets,
    > you quickly run out of time if you store too many!) So QoS on a router
    > will do the right thing when you send a large email, upload big data,
    > etc. but will struggle to make any difference when someone downloads a
    > huge email/file/web page...


    I've heard that said before, and I don't quite understand. Most inbound
    non-VOIP traffic is TCP. Why can't the router drop some packets in a TCP
    stream, which will cause TCP windowing in the sender to think there's
    network congestion and back off a bit? It won't help if you have lots of
    short-lived TCP connections (webbrowsing lots of different sites) but if you
    have a long TCP connection (downloading something) shouldn't the router be
    able to persuade the sender to control the incoming bandwidth?

    Theo
     
    Theo Markettos, Aug 5, 2007
    #4
  5. Tim Guest

    Theo Markettos wrote:
    > I've heard that said before, and I don't quite understand. Most inbound
    > non-VOIP traffic is TCP. Why can't the router drop some packets in a TCP
    > stream, which will cause TCP windowing in the sender to think there's
    > network congestion and back off a bit? It won't help if you have lots of
    > short-lived TCP connections (webbrowsing lots of different sites) but if you
    > have a long TCP connection (downloading something) shouldn't the router be
    > able to persuade the sender to control the incoming bandwidth?
    >


    It can. And this technique works very well if done properly (a la CTX1000)

    It takes a while for TCP connections to ramp up in speed. This gives a
    qos box window to keep the inbound connection a bit suppresed and stop
    it going too fast. A qos box has a few options, including sending ECN,
    introducing latency to TCP connections or plain dropping packets.

    Also in favour is the large download speed of ADSL - it takes a lot go
    saturate the inbound connection.

    Tim
     
    Tim, Aug 5, 2007
    #5
  6. Guest

    On Aug 4, 7:05 pm, Tim <> wrote:
    > wrote:



    > > 4/ Implement duplicate ADSL circuits (one for VOIP, one for everything
    > > else?)

    >
    > Works nicely, but is operati


    Looks like you were truncated! What were you planning to say... :)

    My problem with having a duplicate BT line for a maximum of two voip
    'circuits' is running cost (About £500/annum extra inc ISP costs).
    What I wanted to do was to spend CAPITAL (from my grant) to offset
    future running costs so I am quite interested in the CTX-1000
    thinggy ... I may even set up a 'test rig' in one office first to try
    it out:

    Anyhow for first steps I think I'll:

    1/ Get the Zen Internet ADSL circuit upgraded to 4xxK/up 8M/down or as
    fast as it will go...

    2/ May try downgrading the Camrivox Codex to GSM? as for PSTN some
    people seem to say its 'good enough?'

    Now currently I have a combo Vigor 2800VG as my ADSL termination and I
    am also using it's PPTP VPN facilities for inbound 'dial-up' . If I
    was to trial the CTX-1000 appliance would I have to replace the Vigor
    and if so what ADSL termination/modem and router/firewall/VPNserver
    would you suggest? My guess is that the CTX would sit between the ADSL
    modem and new router/firewall/VPNserver... Or I may have got this
    wrong?

    (I am self taught with this Ethernet stuff AND STILL VERY MUCH
    LEARNING! so any guidance would be appreciated)

    Many thanks,
    Stef
     
    , Aug 5, 2007
    #6
  7. Tim Guest

    wrote:
    > On Aug 4, 7:05 pm, Tim <> wrote:
    >> wrote:

    >
    >
    >>> 4/ Implement duplicate ADSL circuits (one for VOIP, one for everything
    >>> else?)

    >> Works nicely, but is operati

    >


    .... operational expense, not capital expense.

    > 1/ Get the Zen Internet ADSL circuit upgraded to 4xxK/up 8M/down or as
    > fast as it will go...


    Good idea. Makesure you have decent ADSL filters on your line first.
    Preferably a BT style faceplate filter. Everything you can do to make
    your line cleaner means you get better speeds and fewer resyncs on Max.



    >
    > 2/ May try downgrading the Camrivox Codex to GSM? as for PSTN some
    > people seem to say its 'good enough?'


    It is, but it isn't as nice to listen to.

    Also, it is really unlikely (although not impossible) that you are
    maxing out your bandwidth through voice calls alone.


    >
    > Now currently I have a combo Vigor 2800VG as my ADSL termination and I
    > am also using it's PPTP VPN facilities for inbound 'dial-up' . If I
    > was to trial the CTX-1000 appliance would I have to replace the Vigor
    > and if so what ADSL termination/modem and router/firewall/VPNserver
    > would you suggest? My guess is that the CTX would sit between the ADSL
    > modem and new router/firewall/VPNserver... Or I may have got this
    > wrong?


    You could keep the vigor. Just you can't use its wireless bit or its
    VoIP bit.

    ADSL ---- Vigor ---- CTX-1000 ---- Ethernet switch

    All your PCs, IP phones, wireless access point, whatever

    The important thing is that any traffic that will go down the ADSL has
    been through the CTX first.


    Tim
     
    Tim, Aug 5, 2007
    #7
  8. PhilT Guest

    On 4 Aug, 18:05, wrote:

    > Primarily the reason we are
    > interested in VOIP is to save money on Small Office to PSTN UK land-
    > line calls (Each office currently spends about £2k/year to BT 75% of
    > which is to UK PSTN national numbers!)


    VoIP probably isn't going to save much on calls to UK land lines
    compared to other tariff options on your land lines.

    You can use prefix dialling or Carrier Pre-Selection (CPS) to put your
    calls through another carrier.

    If you just want to save money on call charges I would focus on doing
    that by paying less. Some of your capital could go on a least cost
    routing box if needed.

    Phil
     
    PhilT, Aug 6, 2007
    #8
  9. Guest

    On Aug 6, 9:33 am, PhilT <> wrote:

    > VoIP probably isn't going to save much on calls to UK land lines
    > compared to other tariff options on your land lines.


    We currently have an ISDN/PBX through BT (Don't know who installed it
    though). Call costs are extortionate though I understand we could
    'move it from BT' to another (much cheaper) service provider?

    Any suggestions for who to look at?
    Any down sides to doing this?

    >
    > You can use prefix dialling or Carrier Pre-Selection (CPS) to put your
    > calls through another carrier.
    >
    > If you just want to save money on call charges I would focus on doing
    > that by paying less. Some of your capital could go on a least cost
    > routing box if needed.


    Doh? Have never come across these before...

    Any suggestions?
    How would they connect to our PBX?

    To be honest, coming from an IT (not PBX) background I found the idea
    of an ip/phone/dect/solution for two 'lines' to augment the existing
    PBX seemed quite attractive. Now if I could move the PBX service to a
    cheaper supplier that would be GR8 too!

    ------------------------

    Also, two of our offices are moving to new premises soon so I suppose
    we will need new PBX/phones... Any idea who we should be talking to
    (We are in the charity sector) We have also used "Class Telecom" but
    their fixed monthly charges seem high....

    Could anyone point me to a good URL about how to purchase, and get
    installed, a UK SME PBX + phones...

    (Double DOH!!! last time I saw this being done, I was laying cat5
    cables for the PC's whilst the "man from Class" was putting down cat5
    for handsets?)

    There must be a better way?

    Who offers affordable converged solutions?

    Thanks for all the help so far,
    Stef

    > Phil
     
    , Aug 6, 2007
    #9
  10. alexd Guest

    wrote:

    > On Aug 6, 9:33 am, PhilT <> wrote:


    >> You can use prefix dialling or Carrier Pre-Selection (CPS) to put your
    >> calls through another carrier.
    >>
    >> If you just want to save money on call charges I would focus on doing
    >> that by paying less. Some of your capital could go on a least cost
    >> routing box if needed.


    Seconded - you have to spend a /hell/ of a lot on calls to justify a new
    phone system from Cisco to 'save money'!

    > Doh? Have never come across these before...
    >
    > Any suggestions?
    > How would they connect to our PBX?


    They don't - your order CPS through a service provider, then dial a short
    code [4-5 digits] to route calls through them. Combining the cheapest
    routes for each charge band and time of day is called 'least-cost routing'
    or LCR.

    > To be honest, coming from an IT (not PBX) background I found the idea
    > of an ip/phone/dect/solution for two 'lines' to augment the existing
    > PBX seemed quite attractive. Now if I could move the PBX service to a
    > cheaper supplier that would be GR8 too!


    How about 'yourself'? There are several PBX platforms that run on PC
    hardware and use ethernet-connected handsets. Just think: you could expand
    your empire and have a bigger budget next year!
    But seriously, you could use a platform like Asterisk, to sit between your
    existing PBX and your PSTN connection; this would bring you immediate
    benefits [VoIP, LCR, potentially more economical handsets, softphones on
    homeworkers laptops, fax2email] for relatively little outlay [multi-port
    ISDN card + decent server to run it on + your time to set it up], whilst
    not burning any bridges. You can keep your existing PBX, and migrate users
    over to the new platform at your leisure. Most likely they'll be nagging
    you to move them over when users of the new system tell them of all the
    benefits, and that's the best way to have it when migrating people scared
    of change.

    > Also, two of our offices are moving to new premises soon so I suppose
    > we will need new PBX/phones...


    Define 'need'? Surely your PBX doesn't self-destruct when moved from one
    place to another?

    > Could anyone point me to a good URL about how to purchase, and get
    > installed, a UK SME PBX + phones...
    >
    > (Double DOH!!! last time I saw this being done, I was laying cat5
    > cables for the PC's whilst the "man from Class" was putting down cat5
    > for handsets?)


    Ever heard of structured cabling? ;-)

    --
    <http://ale.cx/> (AIM:troffasky) ()
    21:52:37 up 20 days, 3:37, 3 users, load average: 0.88, 0.59, 0.63
    09 f9 11 02 9d 74 e3 5b d8 41 56 c5 63 56 88 c0
     
    alexd, Aug 6, 2007
    #10
  11. In article <>, alexd <> wrote:
    > wrote:
    >
    >> On Aug 6, 9:33 am, PhilT <> wrote:

    >
    >>> You can use prefix dialling or Carrier Pre-Selection (CPS) to put your
    >>> calls through another carrier.
    >>>
    >>> If you just want to save money on call charges I would focus on doing
    >>> that by paying less. Some of your capital could go on a least cost
    >>> routing box if needed.

    >
    >Seconded - you have to spend a /hell/ of a lot on calls to justify a new
    >phone system from Cisco to 'save money'!


    Who says you need to buy a phone system from Cisco?

    >> Doh? Have never come across these before...
    >>
    >> Any suggestions?
    >> How would they connect to our PBX?

    >
    >They don't - your order CPS through a service provider, then dial a short
    >code [4-5 digits] to route calls through them. Combining the cheapest
    >routes for each charge band and time of day is called 'least-cost routing'
    >or LCR.
    >
    >> To be honest, coming from an IT (not PBX) background I found the idea
    >> of an ip/phone/dect/solution for two 'lines' to augment the existing
    >> PBX seemed quite attractive. Now if I could move the PBX service to a
    >> cheaper supplier that would be GR8 too!

    >
    >How about 'yourself'? There are several PBX platforms that run on PC
    >hardware and use ethernet-connected handsets. Just think: you could expand
    >your empire and have a bigger budget next year!
    >But seriously, you could use a platform like Asterisk, to sit between your
    >existing PBX and your PSTN connection; this would bring you immediate
    >benefits [VoIP, LCR, potentially more economical handsets, softphones on
    >homeworkers laptops, fax2email] for relatively little outlay [multi-port
    >ISDN card + decent server to run it on + your time to set it up], whilst
    >not burning any bridges. You can keep your existing PBX, and migrate users
    >over to the new platform at your leisure. Most likely they'll be nagging
    >you to move them over when users of the new system tell them of all the
    >benefits, and that's the best way to have it when migrating people scared
    >of change.


    Multi-port ISDN cards aren't that cheap )-:

    But that is otherwise a sensible suggestion... The down-side is learning
    how to setup asterisk (or similar) but there are plenty of "live" CDs
    to do it these days.

    But ultimately getting rid of the ISDN lines and therefore the monthly
    rental on these line might be worthwhile in the longer term...

    >> Also, two of our offices are moving to new premises soon so I suppose
    >> we will need new PBX/phones...

    >
    >Define 'need'? Surely your PBX doesn't self-destruct when moved from one
    >place to another?


    It might be the need to move ISDN lines, etc. or moving from ISDN to POTS
    or vice-versa, taking on/releasing staff, etc... I had a local case
    recently where the company that installed their old PBX (about £500 of
    Panasonic kit, standard 3+8 stuff) charge them £3K a go when they move
    offices - and their last most was literally over the corridor... Granted
    the 3K did include putting down the wires, however....

    Gordon
     
    Gordon Henderson, Aug 6, 2007
    #11
  12. Tim Guest

    wrote:
    > On Aug 6, 9:33 am, PhilT <> wrote:
    >
    >> VoIP probably isn't going to save much on calls to UK land lines
    >> compared to other tariff options on your land lines.

    >
    > We currently have an ISDN/PBX through BT (Don't know who installed it
    > though). Call costs are extortionate though I understand we could
    > 'move it from BT' to another (much cheaper) service provider?


    You can move to another service provider for your calls, but you will
    still pay for the ISDN line rental.

    Ok, in theory you can move the line rental to another company too, but
    it will still be about the same cost.

    OTOH, a decent business ADSL max connection will give around 7/8 phone
    calls at ISDN quality. With a decent Qos box and not too crazy usage,
    you can share this line with your office internet access requirements.

    To me, you test the ADSL with smokeping first. If it looks good, you
    ditch your ISDN lines and save paying BT $$$ a month for ADSL.


    > Any down sides to doing this?


    Very few are actually much cheaper. They rip you off on mobiles to
    advertise a headline cheap national call rate, or they have a large
    minimum call charge. Or they bill calls in 30 second chunks.

    Telecom's billing is all about averages.

    Some of the really cheap deals use tricks like 55 second minutes :) I
    used one company for a bit that was great, but calls to mobiles took
    15-25 seconds to connect.

    That said, you can get a better deal than BT for call charges.


    > Also, two of our offices are moving to new premises soon so I suppose
    > we will need new PBX/phones... Any idea who we should be talking to
    > (We are in the charity sector) We have also used "Class Telecom" but
    > their fixed monthly charges seem high....


    If you go with hosted IP, then all you need to do is plug your IP phones
    into the ADSL connection in the other office, and you've moved :)


    > Could anyone point me to a good URL about how to purchase, and get
    > installed, a UK SME PBX + phones...


    Where are you based? The company I work for has lots and lots of
    resellers all up and down the country.

    If you really want to keep your ISDN lines, then you could put an IP PBX
    onsite. This gives you some flexibility. For instance, you could
    route your outbound calls out through a SIP provider, but receive
    inbound on ISDN. When you are confident that the VoIP works to your
    satisfaction, then port your ISDN phone numbers to a VoIP provider.

    > (Double DOH!!! last time I saw this being done, I was laying cat5
    > cables for the PC's whilst the "man from Class" was putting down cat5
    > for handsets?)


    Just get a decent cabling contractor in to put cat5 in the building
    first, with all the cables back to a patch panel in a wiring cabinet.

    Of course, the telecoms bloke will say he can't trust somebody else's
    cabling because they want to charge you loads to do it again. In which
    case, you find another telecoms company.

    Lots of IP phones have a built in ethernet switch. So you only need 1
    cat5 per desk. The PC can then be connected to the back of the IP phone.

    > Who offers affordable converged solutions?


    It is kind of a new market. With lots of competent and incompetent
    players. Well, it isn't really that new because VoIP has been around a
    long time, but only really in the last 2 years has the equipment really
    been up to the job.

    Just makesure you install a SIP based system. With proper SIP phones.
    Then you can mix and match later on. Be wary of any system where you
    are forced to use handsets that match the system.



    Tim
     
    Tim, Aug 6, 2007
    #12
  13. Tim Guest

    alexd wrote:
    > But seriously, you could use a platform like Asterisk, to sit between your
    > existing PBX and your PSTN connection; this would bring you immediate
    > benefits [VoIP, LCR, potentially more economical handsets, softphones on
    > homeworkers laptops, fax2email] for relatively little outlay [multi-port
    > ISDN card + decent server to run it on + your time to set it up], whilst
    > not burning any bridges. You can keep your existing PBX, and migrate users
    > over to the new platform at your leisure. Most likely they'll be nagging
    > you to move them over when users of the new system tell them of all the
    > benefits, and that's the best way to have it when migrating people scared
    > of change.


    Asterisk is cool, but it is a very steep learning curve.

    But there are companies around who will supply asterisk, ready installed
    on nice hardware with a support contract. If you don't want to DIY all
    the way.

    > Define 'need'? Surely your PBX doesn't self-destruct when moved from one
    > place to another?


    Moving the PBX is against contract terms of many telecoms companies.
    The love lockin.


    Tim
     
    Tim, Aug 6, 2007
    #13
  14. Tim Guest

    wrote:
    > Who offers affordable converged solutions?
    >


    Why don't you ask the people who have been replying to your posts for
    quotes?

    Or maybe your best course of action would be to take a 1 day SIP starter
    course with me (or any of the other people replying to posts) so that
    you are better able to understand the possibilities of what is possible.

    So then you'd be in a better position to specify what you want, and
    choose which solution would be best for your organisation.

    Tim
     
    Tim, Aug 6, 2007
    #14
  15. alexd Guest

    Gordon Henderson wrote:

    > In article <>, alexd <>
    > wrote:


    >>But seriously, you could use a platform like Asterisk, to sit between your
    >>existing PBX and your PSTN connection; this would bring you immediate
    >>benefits [VoIP, LCR, potentially more economical handsets, softphones on
    >>homeworkers laptops, fax2email] for relatively little outlay [multi-port
    >>ISDN card + decent server to run it on + your time to set it up], whilst
    >>not burning any bridges. You can keep your existing PBX, and migrate users
    >>over to the new platform at your leisure. Most likely they'll be nagging
    >>you to move them over when users of the new system tell them of all the
    >>benefits, and that's the best way to have it when migrating people scared
    >>of change.

    >
    > Multi-port ISDN cards aren't that cheap )-:


    We still haven't established what type of ISDN it is, for that matter

    > But that is otherwise a sensible suggestion... The down-side is learning
    > how to setup asterisk (or similar) but there are plenty of "live" CDs
    > to do it these days.


    If the OP is willing, perhaps the organisation would find it more cost
    effective to train him on it and have him maintain all their PBXes, than
    paying the money to someone else.

    > But ultimately getting rid of the ISDN lines and therefore the monthly
    > rental on these line might be worthwhile in the longer term...
    >
    >>> Also, two of our offices are moving to new premises soon so I suppose
    >>> we will need new PBX/phones...

    >>
    >>Define 'need'? Surely your PBX doesn't self-destruct when moved from one
    >>place to another?

    >
    > It might be the need to move ISDN lines, etc. or moving from ISDN to POTS
    > or vice-versa, taking on/releasing staff, etc...


    Another possibility is an ISDN 'ATA' like an Axtan IPCallBox or similar.

    --
    <http://ale.cx/> (AIM:troffasky) ()
    07:32:28 up 20 days, 13:17, 3 users, load average: 0.18, 0.39, 0.42
    09 f9 11 02 9d 74 e3 5b d8 41 56 c5 63 56 88 c0
     
    alexd, Aug 7, 2007
    #15
  16. Guest

    On Aug 6, 11:23 pm, Tim <> wrote:
    > wrote:
    > > Who offers affordable converged solutions?

    >
    > Why don't you ask the people who have been replying to your posts for
    > quotes?
    >
    > Or maybe your best course of action would be to take a 1 day SIP starter
    > course with me (or any of the other people replying to posts) so that
    > you are better able to understand the possibilities of what is possible.
    >
    > So then you'd be in a better position to specify what you want, and
    > choose which solution would be best for your organisation.
    >
    > Tim


    OK, in my job plan this year one of the things it says it says: "Save
    money on telecoms" it does not say become a SIP expert ;-) Part of me
    would like to, part of me says: HELP - NOT ENOUGH HOURS IN THE DAY!

    We are moving into a new office in London in late Sept and Cardiff in
    Jan. Each office will be small probably no more than four rooms co-
    located on the same floor. Structured cabling will most probably not
    be available so will have to run cat5 in 'spiders web' type fashion.

    Now here comes the fun bit, sticking my neck out...

    * We could provision each site with a pair of BT POTS lines both with
    ADSL Max (1 for data 1 for VOIP). This would also provide each site
    with two POTS phones for emergency backup and FAX.

    Now ideally what I would like to purchase would be:

    1/ A preconfigured VOIP 'box' + 10 handsets + Cables

    [I would be quite happy to run pairs of cables, 1 for phone, one for
    co-located PC but a real BONUS would be if I could plug our router
    into 'VOIPbox' and plug the PC's 'into the back of the phones' so to
    speak]

    2/ A Monthly contract (From somebody like Gradwell which would give me
    'free' 01, 02, 03 numbers for a fixed monthly fee + 10p/min to
    Mobiles).

    Woo Hoo a totally ADSL/Voip/SIP solution -

    Does the above sound reckless ?

    >From whom could I purchase item 1 above?


    Ta,
    Stef
     
    , Aug 7, 2007
    #16
  17. In article <>,
    <> wrote:
    >On Aug 6, 11:23 pm, Tim <> wrote:
    >> wrote:
    >> > Who offers affordable converged solutions?

    >>
    >> Why don't you ask the people who have been replying to your posts for
    >> quotes?
    >>
    >> Or maybe your best course of action would be to take a 1 day SIP starter
    >> course with me (or any of the other people replying to posts) so that
    >> you are better able to understand the possibilities of what is possible.
    >>
    >> So then you'd be in a better position to specify what you want, and
    >> choose which solution would be best for your organisation.
    >>
    >> Tim

    >
    >OK, in my job plan this year one of the things it says it says: "Save
    >money on telecoms" it does not say become a SIP expert ;-) Part of me
    >would like to, part of me says: HELP - NOT ENOUGH HOURS IN THE DAY!
    >
    >We are moving into a new office in London in late Sept and Cardiff in
    >Jan. Each office will be small probably no more than four rooms co-
    >located on the same floor. Structured cabling will most probably not
    >be available so will have to run cat5 in 'spiders web' type fashion.
    >
    >Now here comes the fun bit, sticking my neck out...
    >
    >* We could provision each site with a pair of BT POTS lines both with
    >ADSL Max (1 for data 1 for VOIP). This would also provide each site
    >with two POTS phones for emergency backup and FAX.
    >
    >Now ideally what I would like to purchase would be:
    >
    >1/ A preconfigured VOIP 'box' + 10 handsets + Cables
    >
    >[I would be quite happy to run pairs of cables, 1 for phone, one for
    >co-located PC but a real BONUS would be if I could plug our router
    >into 'VOIPbox' and plug the PC's 'into the back of the phones' so to
    >speak]


    One other thing I haven't seen mention in this thread is power over
    ethernet.. It's probably not applicable in your case (can add ~£300 or
    more to the install), but remember that each phone then needs a mains
    socket to plug it's PSU into, so you'll want a 4-way at each desk,
    maybe more - PC, Monitor, Phone, desk lamp, mobile charger, etc...

    >2/ A Monthly contract (From somebody like Gradwell which would give me
    >'free' 01, 02, 03 numbers for a fixed monthly fee + 10p/min to
    >Mobiles).
    >
    >Woo Hoo a totally ADSL/Voip/SIP solution -
    >
    >Does the above sound reckless ?


    No.... As long as you have a good and reliable ADSL connection then it's
    easilly achievable. And with a "VOIP Box" in each office, then inter
    office calls are on-course free. VoIP box could optionally have analog
    ports to connect to the POTS lines to make outgoing calls in the event
    of total ADSL failure, and similarly, the supplier of 2/ ought to be
    able to dial the POTS lines automatically if it can't make a VoIP call
    to the local VoIP box.

    As you have 2 ADSL connections, then you do need a little bit of care to
    run them both on the same physical LAN, but it's not impossible.

    Without additional hardware, (ie. a 3rd router with 3 Ethernet ports),
    I'd suggest having each ADSL router with it's own subnet, and using
    DHCP for all the office PCs on one network, and statically configuring
    the VoIP PBX and phones on the other network. Then they'll both work
    together. There are ways to run them all on the same subnet too by having
    different default routes for different devices and you may even be able
    to control this from your DHCP server if it's something other than what's
    in the ADSL routers, but it starts to get "hairy" at that point!

    You might even be able to do it with 2 routers which support VRRP but
    that might well push the budget over the limit, and you are trying to
    save money!

    You could relatively easilly put in the 3rd router at a later date,
    if required, and with additional hardware you can have everything on
    one LAN with it auto routing the VoIP stuff down one ADSL connection
    and normal internetty stuff down the other, and it can (in some cases)
    even do fall-over to route all traffic down one line should the other
    fail for whatever reason.

    >>From whom could I purchase item 1 above?


    Without wishing to incur the wrath of being accused of advertising on
    this group..... Me. I can do 2 too, and advise on point 0 - your ADSL
    supplier, oh, and -1 FAX to email, but sometimes there no substitute
    for a real bit of paper!

    Gordon
    --
    http://www.drogon.net/
     
    Gordon Henderson, Aug 7, 2007
    #17
  18. Guest

    On Aug 7, 3:39 pm, Gordon Henderson <> wrote:
    > In article <>,
    >
    >
    >
    > <> wrote:
    > >On Aug 6, 11:23 pm, Tim <> wrote:
    > >> wrote:
    > >> > Who offers affordable converged solutions?

    >
    > >> Why don't you ask the people who have been replying to your posts for
    > >> quotes?

    >
    > >> Or maybe your best course of action would be to take a 1 day SIP starter
    > >> course with me (or any of the other people replying to posts) so that
    > >> you are better able to understand the possibilities of what is possible.

    >
    > >> So then you'd be in a better position to specify what you want, and
    > >> choose which solution would be best for your organisation.

    >
    > >> Tim

    >
    > >OK, in my job plan this year one of the things it says it says: "Save
    > >money on telecoms" it does not say become a SIP expert ;-) Part of me
    > >would like to, part of me says: HELP - NOT ENOUGH HOURS IN THE DAY!

    >
    > >We are moving into a new office in London in late Sept and Cardiff in
    > >Jan. Each office will be small probably no more than four rooms co-
    > >located on the same floor. Structured cabling will most probably not
    > >be available so will have to run cat5 in 'spiders web' type fashion.

    >
    > >Now here comes the fun bit, sticking my neck out...

    >
    > >* We could provision each site with a pair of BT POTS lines both with
    > >ADSL Max (1 for data 1 for VOIP). This would also provide each site
    > >with two POTS phones for emergency backup and FAX.

    >
    > >Now ideally what I would like to purchase would be:

    >
    > >1/ A preconfigured VOIP 'box' + 10 handsets + Cables

    >
    > >[I would be quite happy to run pairs of cables, 1 for phone, one for
    > >co-located PC but a real BONUS would be if I could plug our router
    > >into 'VOIPbox' and plug the PC's 'into the back of the phones' so to
    > >speak]

    >
    > One other thing I haven't seen mention in this thread is power over
    > ethernet.. It's probably not applicable in your case (can add ~£300 or
    > more to the install), but remember that each phone then needs a mains
    > socket to plug it's PSU into, so you'll want a 4-way at each desk,
    > maybe more - PC, Monitor, Phone, desk lamp, mobile charger, etc...
    >
    > >2/ A Monthly contract (From somebody like Gradwell which would give me
    > >'free' 01, 02, 03 numbers for a fixed monthly fee + 10p/min to
    > >Mobiles).

    >
    > >Woo Hoo a totally ADSL/Voip/SIP solution -

    >
    > >Does the above sound reckless ?

    >
    > No.... As long as you have a good and reliable ADSL connection then it's
    > easilly achievable. And with a "VOIP Box" in each office, then inter
    > office calls are on-course free. VoIP box could optionally have analog
    > ports to connect to the POTS lines to make outgoing calls in the event
    > of total ADSL failure, and similarly, the supplier of 2/ ought to be
    > able to dial the POTS lines automatically if it can't make a VoIP call
    > to the local VoIP box.
    >
    > As you have 2 ADSL connections, then you do need a little bit of care to
    > run them both on the same physical LAN, but it's not impossible.
    >
    > Without additional hardware, (ie. a 3rd router with 3 Ethernet ports),
    > I'd suggest having each ADSL router with it's own subnet, and using
    > DHCP for all the office PCs on one network, and statically configuring
    > the VoIP PBX and phones on the other network. Then they'll both work
    > together. There are ways to run them all on the same subnet too by having
    > different default routes for different devices and you may even be able
    > to control this from your DHCP server if it's something other than what's
    > in the ADSL routers, but it starts to get "hairy" at that point!
    >
    > You might even be able to do it with 2 routers which support VRRP but
    > that might well push the budget over the limit, and you are trying to
    > save money!
    >
    > You could relatively easilly put in the 3rd router at a later date,
    > if required, and with additional hardware you can have everything on
    > one LAN with it auto routing the VoIP stuff down one ADSL connection
    > and normal internetty stuff down the other, and it can (in some cases)
    > even do fall-over to route all traffic down one line should the other
    > fail for whatever reason.
    >
    > >>From whom could I purchase item 1 above?

    >
    > Without wishing to incur the wrath of being accused of advertising on
    > this group..... Me. I can do 2 too, and advise on point 0 - your ADSL
    > supplier, oh, and -1 FAX to email, but sometimes there no substitute
    > for a real bit of paper!
    >
    > Gordon
    > --http://www.drogon.net/


    Thanks,

    To save the wrath of the net police anyone else feel free to email me
    with sales blurb....
     
    , Aug 7, 2007
    #18
  19. Tim Guest

    wrote:
    > * We could provision each site with a pair of BT POTS lines both with
    > ADSL Max (1 for data 1 for VOIP). This would also provide each site
    > with two POTS phones for emergency backup and FAX.


    And a PDQ (credit card) machine if you have one.

    >
    > Now ideally what I would like to purchase would be:
    >
    > 1/ A preconfigured VOIP 'box' + 10 handsets + Cables


    You want an IP PBX that can connect to 2 analogue lines.

    With installation?
    Do you require somebody you can ring up when you can't get it to work
    how you like it.

    > [I would be quite happy to run pairs of cables, 1 for phone, one for
    > co-located PC but a real BONUS would be if I could plug our router
    > into 'VOIPbox' and plug the PC's 'into the back of the phones' so to
    > speak]


    Use Snom phones, and this is no problem.


    > 2/ A Monthly contract (From somebody like Gradwell which would give me
    > 'free' 01, 02, 03 numbers for a fixed monthly fee + 10p/min to
    > Mobiles).


    Do this bit yourself. You'll want some incoming numbers too.

    >
    > Does the above sound reckless ?


    Go for it.


    >>From whom could I purchase item 1 above?


    You want one of these:

    http://www.provu.co.uk/protalk_16.html

    Comes in either an ISDN or an analogue line version.

    Although, consider whether just a hosted provider is enough for you.

    Tim
     
    Tim, Aug 7, 2007
    #19
  20. On 05 Aug 2007 13:32:35 +0100 (BST), Theo Markettos wrote:
    > I've heard that said before, and I don't quite understand. Most inbound
    > non-VOIP traffic is TCP. Why can't the router drop some packets in a TCP
    > stream, which will cause TCP windowing in the sender to think there's
    > network congestion and back off a bit?


    This is close to what 'Random Early Detection' does, if you want to actually
    try it out.

    http://www.cisco.com/warp/public/732/Tech/red/

    --
    rgds, Andy Davidson Freelance keyboard jockey
    www.andyd.net
     
    Andy Davidson, Aug 16, 2007
    #20
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