Infrared photography

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by rick white via PhotoKB.com, May 30, 2005.

  1. I m very interested in getting infrared effect from my photos but I can t
    yet afford to splash out on a SLR camera. My current digi cam is an
    Olympus C-350 Zoom which gives me most results I need. Is it possible
    somehow to obtain infrared effect from it, or from a software programme ? I
    also wondered if an infrared filter held firmly across the lens would do
    the trick ? I m afraid I m not very well versed in technical detail but if
    anybody can give me some tips I d be most grateful!

    Cheers

    Rick
     
    rick white via PhotoKB.com, May 30, 2005
    #1
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  2. "rick white via PhotoKB.com" <> writes:
    > I m very interested in getting infrared effect from my photos but I
    > can t yet afford to splash out on a SLR camera. My current digi cam
    > is an Olympus C-350 Zoom which gives me most results I need. Is it
    > possible somehow to obtain infrared effect from it,


    Yes. All digital cameras are capable of making infrared photographs.
    But some are more sensitive than others. I don't have any data on
    the Oly C-350, but many of the old Olympus P&S digicams was
    excellent for this use - much better than the newer DSLR cameras!
    I keep an old Oly 2020Z around, just for infrared.

    To find out how well your camera works with IR, just test it with a
    cheap infrared pass filter such as Hoya R72 in front of the lens, or
    use an exposed piece of slide film as a "filter". When you've done,
    please submit the results to my IR resource page:
    http://folk.uio.no/gisle/photo/ir.html

    > or from a software programme?


    To fake the IR "look" in Photoshop CS or Elements, try the following:
    Pick a colour photo with a lot of green foliage and an old building.
    Use the channel mixer, tick the monochrome box and set green +200 red
    -50 and blue -50. Click ok. Crank up the contrast and usually also
    the brightness. Then add diffuse glow (filter->distort->diffuse glow,
    make sure the background colour is set to white). Try grainess 6,
    glow amount 4 and clear amount 15 as a starting point. Darken the sky
    if it needs it. Add regular grain if you want to simulate the
    appearence of B&W IR film.

    But the real thing (shot with an IR-pass filter) will look better.

    > I also wondered if an infrared filter held firmly across the lens
    > would do the trick?


    I guess that should work (but you may scratch the filter). There are
    clip-on filter holders and things like Cokin that let you attach a
    filter to any camera - you may want to get one of these.

    > I m afraid I m not very well versed in technical detail but if
    > anybody can give me some tips I d be most grateful!


    At the bottom of my IR resource page, there is a link farm
    with pointers to other pages with lots of pratcical advice
    on digital IR photography.

    --
    - gisle hannemyr [ gisle{at}hannemyr.no - http://folk.uio.no/gisle/ ]
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Kodak DCS460, Canon Powershot G5, Olympus 2020Z
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
     
    Gisle Hannemyr, May 30, 2005
    #2
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  3. rick white via PhotoKB.com

    Darrell Guest

    "rick white via PhotoKB.com" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >I m very interested in getting infrared effect from my photos but I can t
    > yet afford to splash out on a SLR camera. My current digi cam is an
    > Olympus C-350 Zoom which gives me most results I need. Is it possible
    > somehow to obtain infrared effect from it, or from a software programme ?
    > I
    > also wondered if an infrared filter held firmly across the lens would do
    > the trick ? I m afraid I m not very well versed in technical detail but
    > if
    > anybody can give me some tips I d be most grateful!
    >
    > Cheers
    >
    > Rick


    Test the camera, turn on the preview screen, and look at an IR source. The
    easiest source is the TV remote, point it at the camera look at the preview
    screen push buttons on the remote. If you see pale cyan blinks from the
    diodes on the remote, that indicates the camera can "see" IR. Cheaper than
    buying the IR filter and finding out the camera can't do IR.
     
    Darrell, May 30, 2005
    #3
  4. "Darrell" <> writes:

    > Test the camera, turn on the preview screen, and look at an IR
    > source. The easiest source is the TV remote, point it at the camera
    > look at the preview screen push buttons on the remote. If you see
    > pale cyan blinks from the diodes on the remote, that indicates the
    > camera can "see" IR.


    I have yet to find a digital camera that "fail" this test.
    Because they ALL can do IR (to some extent).

    Unfortunately, it doesn't tell you how well suited the camera is for
    IR photography. A Canon S50, for instance, will happily pass the
    "remote control"-test, but the S50 pretty useless for IR photography.
    Its sensitivity to IR wavelengths is very low (about 1% of the Oly
    2020Z's sensitivity) and it sports a lens design that results in a
    horrible blurred hotspot in the middle of the image.

    > Cheaper than buying the IR filter and finding out the camera can't
    > do IR.


    Not really.
    --
    - gisle hannemyr [ gisle{at}hannemyr.no - http://folk.uio.no/gisle/ ]
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Kodak DCS460, Canon Powershot G5, Olympus 2020Z
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
     
    Gisle Hannemyr, May 30, 2005
    #4
  5. rick white via PhotoKB.com

    Guest

    rick white via PhotoKB.com <> wrote:
    >I m very interested in getting infrared effect from my photos but I can t
    >yet afford to splash out on a SLR camera. My current digi cam is an
    >Olympus C-350 Zoom which gives me most results I need. Is it possible
    >somehow to obtain infrared effect from it, or from a software programme ? I
    >also wondered if an infrared filter held firmly across the lens would do
    >the trick ? I m afraid I m not very well versed in technical detail but if
    >anybody can give me some tips I d be most grateful!


    I know most webcams have IR-filter to block infrared light. Due that ccd is
    more sensitive to this than any other light.
    What many do-it-yourselfers has done is to remove this filter. And in some
    cases used an black 35mm negative film as a visable light filter block.

    I assume there is something similar in digitalcameras. If you dare to sacrifice
    a digitalcamera. You could try to remove misc filters. You could buy some
    real old camera in 1-2 Mpix class. If you want to do it real good. Put the ccd
    on a peltier element.
     
    , May 30, 2005
    #5
  6. Hi Gisle,

    Thanks so much for all your info, I ll give it a go and let you know
    what happens. Incidentally, I have downloaded PICASSA 2, would this have
    the necessary ingredients to "fake it " with the specs you gave me ??

    Rick

    --
    Message posted via http://www.photokb.com
     
    rick white via PhotoKB.com, May 30, 2005
    #6
  7. Hi Darrell,

    Thanks for your reply, i m going to test it out in a day or so and will
    let you know how I get on.

    Rick

    --
    Message posted via http://www.photokb.com
     
    rick white via PhotoKB.com, May 30, 2005
    #7
  8. Hi, is it also possible to obtain colour infrared on digi ?? I sawsome in
    a book a while back which looked amazing. These were done on 35mm though !

    Rick

    --
    Message posted via http://www.photokb.com
     
    rick white via PhotoKB.com, May 30, 2005
    #8
  9. "rick white via PhotoKB.com" <> writes:
    > Incidentally, I have downloaded PICASSA 2, would this have the
    > necessary ingredients to "fake it " with the specs you gave me ??


    Don't think so. I am not familiar with Picassa 2, but I've heard
    is a very simple program. I can't imagine it has such things as
    a channel mixer or a diffuse glow filtering.
    --
    - gisle hannemyr [ gisle{at}hannemyr.no - http://folk.uio.no/gisle/ ]
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Kodak DCS460, Canon Powershot G5, Olympus 2020Z
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
     
    Gisle Hannemyr, May 30, 2005
    #9
  10. rick white via PhotoKB.com

    Matti Vuori Guest

    Gisle Hannemyr <> wrote in
    news::
    > I don't have any data on
    > the Oly C-350, but many of the old Olympus P&S digicams was
    > excellent for this use - much better than the newer DSLR cameras!
    > I keep an old Oly 2020Z around, just for infrared.


    As far as I know, only C-2000Z, C-2020Z, C-21 and C-2100UZ were the good
    ones, plus Nikon 950 & 775 that all used the same IR-friendly Sony image
    sensor. With all these, and a Hoya R72 filter, IR photography is easy
    without a tripod, unlike all current models. I really would suggest
    finding any of the those models.

    (Myself, I just bought a C-2000Z to replace a C-21 for IR purposes. In
    ideal conditions the C-21, with its very sharp lens, would take better
    photos, but generally it is a bit lacking.)

    --
    Matti Vuori, <http://sivut.koti.soon.fi/mvuori/index-e.htm>
     
    Matti Vuori, May 30, 2005
    #10
  11. "rick white via PhotoKB.com" <> writes:
    > Hi, is it also possible to obtain colour infrared on digi ?? I
    > sawsome in a book a while back which looked amazing. These were done
    > on 35mm though !


    All colour infrared are "faked". Infrared is light above 700 nm,
    and has no "colour" perceptible by humans.

    Kodak used to make something called "Kodak Ektachrome Professional
    Infrared EIR Film" for (fake) colour infrared. It renders the
    infrared light that is reflected by healthy foliage bright red.
    I think it was meant for scientific purposes, such as identifying
    damaged plantlife, researching forged artwork, etc. Some people also
    used it artistically - which is probabably what you've seen on 35mm.

    I've experimented a bit with reproducing the Kodak EIR "look" in
    digital post-processing. Starting with a digital shot image taken
    using Hoya's R72 IR-pass filter, swapping red and blue channels, and
    then tweaking WB a bit produces a (IMHO) quite good "replica" of the
    Kodak EIR appearance, but of course without any scientific merit.
    --
    - gisle hannemyr [ gisle{at}hannemyr.no - http://folk.uio.no/gisle/ ]
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Kodak DCS460, Canon Powershot G5, Olympus 2020Z
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
     
    Gisle Hannemyr, May 30, 2005
    #11
  12. rick white via PhotoKB.com

    nk Guest

    Rick,
    Check out this web site. It is very informative on how to do Infrared Photography.

    Nath

    http://dpfwiw.com/ir.htm


    rick white via PhotoKB.com wrote:
    > I m very interested in getting infrared effect from my photos but I can t
    > yet afford to splash out on a SLR camera. My current digi cam is an
    > Olympus C-350 Zoom which gives me most results I need. Is it possible
    > somehow to obtain infrared effect from it, or from a software programme ? I
    > also wondered if an infrared filter held firmly across the lens would do
    > the trick ? I m afraid I m not very well versed in technical detail but if
    > anybody can give me some tips I d be most grateful!
    >
    > Cheers
    >
    > Rick
     
    nk, May 30, 2005
    #12
  13. Gisle, I ve think I ve only ever owned 3 cameras, 2 of them Olympus
    including my current C-350 Z p+s. If I did try to to step up a gear to
    say a Olympus C-2020 Z if this is the best choice? for i/r purpose how much
    would I be looking to lay out on one roughly. I must confess I don t even
    know how long they ve been around (excuse my ignorance) or where to obtain
    one ???

    Thanks

    Rick

    --
    Message posted via http://www.photokb.com
     
    rick white via PhotoKB.com, May 31, 2005
    #13
  14. "rick white via PhotoKB.com" <> writes:

    > Gisle, I ve think I ve only ever owned 3 cameras, 2 of them Olympus
    > including my current C-350 Z p+s. If I did try to to step up a gear
    > to say a Olympus C-2020 Z if this is the best choice?


    First: Don't buy a new camera before you've tested the IR capabilities
    of your present one - using the procedures that has been suggested
    earlier in the thread. You may be lucky and find out that it works
    well enough to be all you need.

    Second: The Oly C-2020Z is an older and in some respects a lower grade
    camera than your present C-350Z. It is, for instance, only 2 Mpx,
    while your present one is 3 Mpx.

    The C-2020Z from Olympus is, however, AFAIK one of the best compacts
    for near-IR photography. There are three reasons for this:
    1) The sensor used (the Sony 1/2" 2.11 Mpx) was more sensitive to
    near-IR-light than any other sensor used in an unmodified compact
    except some Sony's with "nightshot" capabilities (which
    unfortunately was crippled by Sony to limit their utility in
    daylight).
    2) It can be fitted with an adapter tube (Kenko has a cheap one with
    52 mm thread) for fitting IR-pass filters.
    3) It has a fast (f/2.0) lens.

    I don't know if Oly C-2020Z is the "best" choice. It is the one I use
    for near-IR photography, and I am happy with it. Other compacts with
    the same Sony sensor, including its C-2000Z, C-2040Z, C-2100UZ, C-21
    siblings, Nikon CP-775, CP-800 and CP-950, and Epson 850Z, should
    have similar IR-qualities.

    > for i/r purpose how much would I be looking to lay out on one
    > roughly. I must confess I don t even know how long they ve been
    > around (excuse my ignorance) or where to obtain one ???


    All these camera's are really old, and introduced from 1999 and
    onwards. The only places you can get them are garage sales, used
    equipment shops, and eBay. I bought my Olymus C-2020Z on eBay a
    couple of years ago for $60. I just had a look at eBay and these
    days a C-2020Z in good condition seem to fetch more than $100!
    In my opinion, that is way too much to pay for a 5-6 year old
    2 Mpx camera, but YMMV.

    If you decide to get a Oly C-2020Z to experiment with infrared, you
    also need an IR-pass filter - the cheapest is probably Hoya R72
    with 52 mm thread (~$41), and an adapter tube:
    http://store.yahoo.com/kenkomall/kendigcamadr4.html ($16) to mount
    the filter on the camera.

    Good luck!
    --
    - gisle hannemyr [ gisle{at}hannemyr.no - http://folk.uio.no/gisle/ ]
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Kodak DCS460, Canon Powershot G5, Olympus 2020Z
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
     
    Gisle Hannemyr, Jun 1, 2005
    #14
  15. "rick white via PhotoKB.com" <> writes:

    > Gisle, I ve think I ve only ever owned 3 cameras, 2 of them Olympus
    > including my current C-350 Z p+s. If I did try to to step up a gear
    > to say a Olympus C-2020 Z if this is the best choice?


    First: Don't buy a new camera before you've tested the IR capabilities
    of your present one - using the procedures that has been suggested
    earlier in the thread. You may be lucky and find out that it works
    well enough to be all you need.

    Second: The Oly C-2020Z is an older and in some respects a lower grade
    camera than your present C-350Z. It is, for instance, only 2 Mpx,
    while your present one is 3 Mpx.

    The C-2020Z from Olympus is, however, AFAIK one of the best compacts
    for near-IR photography. There are three reasons for this:
    1) The sensor used (the Sony 1/2" 2.11 Mpx) was more sensitive to
    near-IR-light than any other sensor used in an unmodified compact
    except some Sony's with "nightshot" capabilities (which
    unfortunately was crippled by Sony to limit their utility in
    daylight).
    2) It can be fitted with an adapter tube (Raynox has a cheap one
    with 52 mm thread) for fitting IR-pass filters.
    3) It has a fast (f/2.0) lens.

    I don't know if Oly C-2020Z is the "best" choice. It is the one I use
    for near-IR photography, and I am happy with it. Other compacts with
    the same Sony sensor, including its C-2000Z, C-2040Z, C-2100UZ, C-21
    siblings, Nikon CP-775, CP-800 and CP-950, and Epson 850Z, should
    have similar IR-qualities.

    > for i/r purpose how much would I be looking to lay out on one
    > roughly. I must confess I don t even know how long they ve been
    > around (excuse my ignorance) or where to obtain one ???


    All these camera's are really old, and introduced from 1999 and
    onwards. The only places you can get them are garage sales, used
    equipment shops, and eBay. I bought my Olymus C-2020Z on eBay a
    couple of years ago for $60. I just had a look at eBay and these
    days a C-2020Z in good condition seem to fetch more than $100!
    In my opinion, that is way too much to pay for a 5-6 year old
    2 Mpx camera, but YMMV.

    If you decide to get a Oly C-2020Z to experiment with infrared, you
    also need an IR-pass filter - the cheapest is probably Hoya R72
    with 52 mm thread (~$41), and a Raynox lens adapter tube, e.g.:
    http://www.bugeyedigital.com/product_main/ray-rt5241.html ($16) to
    mount the filter on the camera.
    --
    - gisle hannemyr [ gisle{at}hannemyr.no - http://folk.uio.no/gisle/ ]
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Kodak DCS460, Canon Powershot G5, Olympus 2020Z
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
     
    Gisle Hannemyr, Jun 1, 2005
    #15
  16. A big thanks to Gisle and everyone who responded for pointing me in the
    right direction. I hope to get started in a few weeks and let you know how
    it goes (after many foul ups I guess ) so watch this space.

    Thanks all for now

    Rick

    --
    Message posted via http://www.photokb.com
     
    rick white via PhotoKB.com, Jun 2, 2005
    #16
  17. rick white via PhotoKB.com

    Ronald Baird Guest

    Greetings Gisle,

    Actually, Kodak still does make KODAK EKTACHROME Professional Infrared EIR
    Film. It features Infrared sensitivity from 700 to 900 nm and normal (near
    ultraviolet and visible) sensitivity from 380 to 700 nm. Pretty good as a
    significant portion is outside the normal visible spectrum. But light is
    really just energy that we can see. Since film does not process that energy
    but simply records it, we can apply other technology as you note so what is
    recorded becomes useful to us, i.e. false color. An interesting way of
    capturing information and making it work for us.

    This technology is used widely by the government, and private companies,
    especially in agriculture. Your application sounds pretty interesting from
    an aesthetic view. I would love to see some of the results of your digital
    application.

    Talk to you soon,

    Ron Baird
    Eastman Kodak Company



    "Gisle Hannemyr" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > "rick white via PhotoKB.com" <> writes:
    > > Hi, is it also possible to obtain colour infrared on digi ?? I
    > > sawsome in a book a while back which looked amazing. These were done
    > > on 35mm though !

    >
    > All colour infrared are "faked". Infrared is light above 700 nm,
    > and has no "colour" perceptible by humans.
    >
    > Kodak used to make something called "Kodak Ektachrome Professional
    > Infrared EIR Film" for (fake) colour infrared. It renders the
    > infrared light that is reflected by healthy foliage bright red.
    > I think it was meant for scientific purposes, such as identifying
    > damaged plantlife, researching forged artwork, etc. Some people also
    > used it artistically - which is probabably what you've seen on 35mm.
    >
    > I've experimented a bit with reproducing the Kodak EIR "look" in
    > digital post-processing. Starting with a digital shot image taken
    > using Hoya's R72 IR-pass filter, swapping red and blue channels, and
    > then tweaking WB a bit produces a (IMHO) quite good "replica" of the
    > Kodak EIR appearance, but of course without any scientific merit.
    > --
    > - gisle hannemyr [ gisle{at}hannemyr.no - http://folk.uio.no/gisle/ ]
    > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    > Kodak DCS460, Canon Powershot G5, Olympus 2020Z
    > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
     
    Ronald Baird, Jun 2, 2005
    #17
  18. Gisle Hannemyr wrote:
    >> Gisle, I ve think I ve only ever owned 3 cameras, 2 of them Olympus
    >> including my current C-350 Z p+s. If I did try to to step up a gear
    >> to say a Olympus C-2020 Z if this is the best choice?

    >
    >First: Don't buy a new camera before you've tested the IR capabilities
    >of your present one - using the procedures that has been suggested
    >earlier in the thread. You may be lucky and find out that it works
    >well enough to be all you need.
    >
    >Second: The Oly C-2020Z is an older and in some respects a lower grade
    >camera than your present C-350Z. It is, for instance, only 2 Mpx,
    >while your present one is 3 Mpx.
    >
    >The C-2020Z from Olympus is, however, AFAIK one of the best compacts
    >for near-IR photography. There are three reasons for this:
    >1) The sensor used (the Sony 1/2" 2.11 Mpx) was more sensitive to
    > near-IR-light than any other sensor used in an unmodified compact
    > except some Sony's with "nightshot" capabilities (which
    > unfortunately was crippled by Sony to limit their utility in
    > daylight).
    >2) It can be fitted with an adapter tube (Kenko has a cheap one with
    > 52 mm thread) for fitting IR-pass filters.
    >3) It has a fast (f/2.0) lens.
    >
    >I don't know if Oly C-2020Z is the "best" choice. It is the one I use
    >for near-IR photography, and I am happy with it. Other compacts with
    >the same Sony sensor, including its C-2000Z, C-2040Z, C-2100UZ, C-21
    >siblings, Nikon CP-775, CP-800 and CP-950, and Epson 850Z, should
    >have similar IR-qualities.
    >
    >> for i/r purpose how much would I be looking to lay out on one
    >> roughly. I must confess I don t even know how long they ve been
    >> around (excuse my ignorance) or where to obtain one ???

    >
    >All these camera's are really old, and introduced from 1999 and
    >onwards. The only places you can get them are garage sales, used
    >equipment shops, and eBay. I bought my Olymus C-2020Z on eBay a
    >couple of years ago for $60. I just had a look at eBay and these
    >days a C-2020Z in good condition seem to fetch more than $100!
    >In my opinion, that is way too much to pay for a 5-6 year old
    >2 Mpx camera, but YMMV.
    >
    >If you decide to get a Oly C-2020Z to experiment with infrared, you
    >also need an IR-pass filter - the cheapest is probably Hoya R72
    >with 52 mm thread (~$41), and an adapter tube:
    >http://store.yahoo.com/kenkomall/kendigcamadr4.html ($16) to mount
    >the filter on the camera.
    >
    >Good luck!



    --
    Message posted via PhotoKB.com
    http://www.photokb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/photo-digital/200506/1
     
    rick white via PhotoKB.com, Jun 13, 2005
    #18
  19. Gisle Hannemyr wrote:
    >> Gisle, I ve think I ve only ever owned 3 cameras, 2 of them Olympus
    >> including my current C-350 Z p+s. If I did try to to step up a gear
    >> to say a Olympus C-2020 Z if this is the best choice?

    >
    >First: Don't buy a new camera before you've tested the IR capabilities
    >of your present one - using the procedures that has been suggested
    >earlier in the thread. You may be lucky and find out that it works
    >well enough to be all you need.
    >
    >Second: The Oly C-2020Z is an older and in some respects a lower grade
    >camera than your present C-350Z. It is, for instance, only 2 Mpx,
    >while your present one is 3 Mpx.
    >
    >The C-2020Z from Olympus is, however, AFAIK one of the best compacts
    >for near-IR photography. There are three reasons for this:
    >1) The sensor used (the Sony 1/2" 2.11 Mpx) was more sensitive to
    > near-IR-light than any other sensor used in an unmodified compact
    > except some Sony's with "nightshot" capabilities (which
    > unfortunately was crippled by Sony to limit their utility in
    > daylight).
    >2) It can be fitted with an adapter tube (Raynox has a cheap one
    > with 52 mm thread) for fitting IR-pass filters.
    >3) It has a fast (f/2.0) lens.
    >
    >I don't know if Oly C-2020Z is the "best" choice. It is the one I use
    >for near-IR photography, and I am happy with it. Other compacts with
    >the same Sony sensor, including its C-2000Z, C-2040Z, C-2100UZ, C-21
    >siblings, Nikon CP-775, CP-800 and CP-950, and Epson 850Z, should
    >have similar IR-qualities.
    >
    >> for i/r purpose how much would I be looking to lay out on one
    >> roughly. I must confess I don t even know how long they ve been
    >> around (excuse my ignorance) or where to obtain one ???

    >
    >All these camera's are really old, and introduced from 1999 and
    >onwards. The only places you can get them are garage sales, used
    >equipment shops, and eBay. I bought my Olymus C-2020Z on eBay a
    >couple of years ago for $60. I just had a look at eBay and these
    >days a C-2020Z in good condition seem to fetch more than $100!
    >In my opinion, that is way too much to pay for a 5-6 year old
    >2 Mpx camera, but YMMV.
    >
    >If you decide to get a Oly C-2020Z to experiment with infrared, you
    >also need an IR-pass filter - the cheapest is probably Hoya R72
    >with 52 mm thread (~$41), and a Raynox lens adapter tube, e.g.:
    >http://www.bugeyedigital.com/product_main/ray-rt5241.html ($16) to
    >mount the filter on the camera.



    --
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    http://www.photokb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/photo-digital/200506/1
     
    rick white via PhotoKB.com, Jun 13, 2005
    #19
  20. Hi Gisle,

    I m almost ready to go now. You mentioned Photoshop CS and Elements. I
    ve checked the price of CS and it s way over my budget. Elements is around
    the £70 mark, would it give me everything I m likely to need for b/w infrared
    and also colour???

    Rick


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    rick white via PhotoKB.com, Jun 13, 2005
    #20
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