If you were selling your old computer...

Discussion in 'Computer Support' started by Anonymous, May 2, 2006.

  1. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    How would you make sure that no one got any critical personal data
    on you, or from you?

    Show them it works then format both hard drives? ( in our case we
    have two )
     
    Anonymous, May 2, 2006
    #1
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  2. Anonymous

    Jim Guest

    http://dban.sourceforge.net/

    "Anonymous" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > How would you make sure that no one got any critical personal data
    > on you, or from you?
    >
    > Show them it works then format both hard drives? ( in our case we
    > have two )
    >
    >
     
    Jim, May 2, 2006
    #2
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  3. Anonymous

    thanatoid Guest

    "Jim" <> wrote in
    news:wtQ5g.2843$ZL6.178@trndny04:

    > http://dban.sourceforge.net/
    >
    > "Anonymous" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> How would you make sure that no one got any critical
    >> personal data on you, or from you?
    >>
    >> Show them it works then format both hard drives? ( in our
    >> case we have two )


    Depending on how old the computer is, the hard drives may be
    very small by today's standards (a new hard drive is one of the
    easiest ways of upgrading a computer - just make sure the MB can
    handle the new size) or near death.

    There are a variety of utilities (some free) which will wipe
    your drives so even the military won't be able to recover
    anything from it, but just formatting them (twice for the hell
    of it) will probably do the job for an average person.

    If the new owner wants a new drive(s), take out your hard dives,
    open them with small screwdrivers, and take a heavy hammer to
    them. It can be quite satisfying, especially when you think of
    all the moments the fucking thing almost drove you nuts.



    --
    thanatoid-Tip® #13
    Next time you are in a tall office building, ask to see the
    building manager and get into an argument with him/her as to why
    there isn't a 13th floor (there usually isn't).
     
    thanatoid, May 2, 2006
    #3
  4. Anonymous

    Plato Guest

    Anonymous wrote:
    >
    > How would you make sure that no one got any critical personal data
    > on you, or from you?


    Zero fill.

    > Show them it works then format both hard drives? ( in our case we
    > have two )


    --
    http://www.bootdisk.com/
     
    Plato, May 2, 2006
    #4
  5. Anonymous

    EricP Guest

    On Tue, 02 May 2006 16:38:43 -0500, Anonymous <>
    wrote:

    >How would you make sure that no one got any critical personal data
    >on you, or from you?
    >
    >Show them it works then format both hard drives? ( in our case we
    >have two )
    >

    The only way to be secure with sensitive info is to remove the drives
    and destroy them, "formatting" does nothing and a child can recover
    the files.

    Next best is to use a utility that writes junk over the whole drive a
    number of times and makes it extremely difficult for Joe Public to get
    any files off them, but the authorities can if they throw time at it.
    Only you know what you have on the drive.
     
    EricP, May 3, 2006
    #5
  6. Anonymous

    Jimchip Guest

    On 2006-05-02, Jim <> wrote:
    > http://dban.sourceforge.net/


    I actually believe their claims and have used the program:
    http://software.newsforge.com/print.pl?sid=05/09/14/178204
    "If you don't have a government lab, an electron microscope, a dedicated
    team of computer forensics specialists, and a huge amount of time and money,
    you will not recover your data after DBAN has wiped your hard drive."

    So for the consumer, just trying to clean up before a sale, I think it is a
    good choice. That's what the OP wants.

    One doesn't need a gov't lab, however. "a dedicated
    team of computer forensics specialists, and a huge amount of time and money"
    (I would change 'huge' to moderate but expensive) could still get at the
    first data written but maybe not the overwrites of that first data.

    If it's really critical data...00 buckshot :)

    >
    > "Anonymous" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> How would you make sure that no one got any critical personal data
    >> on you, or from you?
    >>
    >> Show them it works then format both hard drives? ( in our case we
    >> have two )


    --
    The shotgun approach to data security
     
    Jimchip, May 3, 2006
    #6
  7. Anonymous

    Mara Guest

    On Tue, 02 May 2006 23:20:25 -0000, Jimchip
    <> wrote:

    >On 2006-05-02, Jim <> wrote:
    >> http://dban.sourceforge.net/

    >
    >I actually believe their claims and have used the program:
    >http://software.newsforge.com/print.pl?sid=05/09/14/178204
    >"If you don't have a government lab, an electron microscope, a dedicated
    >team of computer forensics specialists, and a huge amount of time and money,
    >you will not recover your data after DBAN has wiped your hard drive."
    >
    >So for the consumer, just trying to clean up before a sale, I think it is a
    >good choice. That's what the OP wants.


    This would work, too, for what the OP wants.

    http://www.heidi.ie/eraser/

    >One doesn't need a gov't lab, however. "a dedicated
    >team of computer forensics specialists, and a huge amount of time and money"
    >(I would change 'huge' to moderate but expensive) could still get at the
    >first data written but maybe not the overwrites of that first data.
    >
    >If it's really critical data...00 buckshot :)


    A sledgehammer and a contest works for me.

    "Ok, which one of you can break it into the most pieces with one hit?"

    <snip>

    --
    <rw-rw-rw-> I don't care if it can reproduce sound well enough for
    dolphins to talk to each other through it, if you can't grep it it's
    evil.
     
    Mara, May 3, 2006
    #7
  8. Anonymous

    philo Guest

    Anonymous wrote:
    > How would you make sure that no one got any critical personal data
    > on you, or from you?
    >
    > Show them it works then format both hard drives? ( in our case we
    > have two )
    >
    >

    Format the drive , then reload the OS.
    they will at least have a working computer...
    and one the drive is reloaded the chances of them recovering any data is
    pretty close to zero...
    if the drive is just formatted... data could still be retrieved
    *** Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com ***
     
    philo, May 3, 2006
    #8
  9. Anonymous

    Jimchip Guest

    On 2006-05-03, Mara <> wrote:
    > On Tue, 02 May 2006 23:20:25 -0000, Jimchip
    ><> wrote:
    >
    >>On 2006-05-02, Jim <> wrote:
    >>> http://dban.sourceforge.net/

    >>
    >>I actually believe their claims and have used the program:
    >>http://software.newsforge.com/print.pl?sid=05/09/14/178204
    >>"If you don't have a government lab, an electron microscope, a dedicated
    >>team of computer forensics specialists, and a huge amount of time and money,
    >>you will not recover your data after DBAN has wiped your hard drive."
    >>
    >>So for the consumer, just trying to clean up before a sale, I think it is a
    >>good choice. That's what the OP wants.

    >
    > This would work, too, for what the OP wants.
    >
    > http://www.heidi.ie/eraser/


    For windows...and less chance of not doing it right.

    >
    >>One doesn't need a gov't lab, however. "a dedicated
    >>team of computer forensics specialists, and a huge amount of time and money"
    >>(I would change 'huge' to moderate but expensive) could still get at the
    >>first data written but maybe not the overwrites of that first data.
    >>
    >>If it's really critical data...00 buckshot :)

    >
    > A sledgehammer and a contest works for me.
    >
    > "Ok, which one of you can break it into the most pieces with one hit?"
    >
    ><snip>
    >

    --
    Sledgehammers are heavy and don't go BOOM!
     
    Jimchip, May 3, 2006
    #9
  10. Anonymous

    Mara Guest

    On Wed, 03 May 2006 00:25:46 -0000, Jimchip
    <> wrote:

    >On 2006-05-03, Mara <> wrote:
    >> On Tue, 02 May 2006 23:20:25 -0000, Jimchip
    >><> wrote:
    >>
    >>>On 2006-05-02, Jim <> wrote:
    >>>> http://dban.sourceforge.net/
    >>>
    >>>I actually believe their claims and have used the program:
    >>>http://software.newsforge.com/print.pl?sid=05/09/14/178204
    >>>"If you don't have a government lab, an electron microscope, a dedicated
    >>>team of computer forensics specialists, and a huge amount of time and money,
    >>>you will not recover your data after DBAN has wiped your hard drive."
    >>>
    >>>So for the consumer, just trying to clean up before a sale, I think it is a
    >>>good choice. That's what the OP wants.

    >>
    >> This would work, too, for what the OP wants.
    >>
    >> http://www.heidi.ie/eraser/

    >
    >For windows...and less chance of not doing it right.


    Mea culpa - I haven't been following the thread. What is the OP's OS?

    I would think that overwriting an average hdd (w/Windows, etc..) with the DOJ
    algorithm 7 times would do the job for simpler things.

    >>
    >>>One doesn't need a gov't lab, however. "a dedicated
    >>>team of computer forensics specialists, and a huge amount of time and money"
    >>>(I would change 'huge' to moderate but expensive) could still get at the
    >>>first data written but maybe not the overwrites of that first data.
    >>>
    >>>If it's really critical data...00 buckshot :)

    >>
    >> A sledgehammer and a contest works for me.
    >>
    >> "Ok, which one of you can break it into the most pieces with one hit?"
    >>
    >><snip>


    Shotguns are for things that shatter in a mentally satisfying manner when shot,
    such as dead Linksys routers, some printers, AOL cds, etc.. Hard drives just
    kind of lay there with holes in them after a shotgun blast, although they do
    jump a bit when hit, depending on how close you are when you pull the trigger,
    and what gauge of shotgun you use.

    "That's the voice of experience speaking."

    --
    <rw-rw-rw-> I don't care if it can reproduce sound well enough for
    dolphins to talk to each other through it, if you can't grep it it's
    evil.
     
    Mara, May 3, 2006
    #10
  11. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    EricP <> wrote :

    > On Tue, 02 May 2006 16:38:43 -0500, Anonymous
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >>How would you make sure that no one got any critical personal
    >>data on you, or from you?
    >>
    >>Show them it works then format both hard drives? ( in our case
    >>we have two )
    >>

    > The only way to be secure with sensitive info is to remove the
    > drives and destroy them, "formatting" does nothing and a child
    > can recover the files.
    >
    > Next best is to use a utility that writes junk over the whole
    > drive a number of times and makes it extremely difficult for
    > Joe Public to get any files off them, but the authorities can
    > if they throw time at it. Only you know what you have on the
    > drive.
    >


    I don't have anything that could get me prison time, more like
    ISP passwords and junk. No credit cards even.
     
    Anonymous, May 3, 2006
    #11
  12. Anonymous

    Jimchip Guest

    On 2006-05-03, Mara <> wrote:
    > On Wed, 03 May 2006 00:25:46 -0000, Jimchip
    ><> wrote:
    >
    >>On 2006-05-03, Mara <> wrote:
    >>> On Tue, 02 May 2006 23:20:25 -0000, Jimchip
    >>><> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>On 2006-05-02, Jim <> wrote:
    >>>>> http://dban.sourceforge.net/
    >>>>
    >>>>I actually believe their claims and have used the program:
    >>>>http://software.newsforge.com/print.pl?sid=05/09/14/178204
    >>>>"If you don't have a government lab, an electron microscope, a dedicated
    >>>>team of computer forensics specialists, and a huge amount of time and money,
    >>>>you will not recover your data after DBAN has wiped your hard drive."
    >>>>
    >>>>So for the consumer, just trying to clean up before a sale, I think it is a
    >>>>good choice. That's what the OP wants.
    >>>
    >>> This would work, too, for what the OP wants.
    >>>
    >>> http://www.heidi.ie/eraser/

    >>
    >>For windows...and less chance of not doing it right.

    >
    > Mea culpa - I haven't been following the thread. What is the OP's OS?


    I thought it was Windows...Eraser was a good answer. It's GPL'd, too.
    Those of us in a multi-OS environment rely on dban (when the shotguns are
    not allowed) :)

    Really though, I like dban because it's a single floppy or CD that runs on
    any i386 or compatible. I haven't tried it with any SATA drives yet.

    >
    > I would think that overwriting an average hdd (w/Windows, etc..) with the DOJ
    > algorithm 7 times would do the job for simpler things.


    One would have to be a serious criminal or the data would have to be *very*
    valuable (trade-secret) before it would be a concern. 3 or 4 times for
    anybody. A standard of 7. If someone wants to steal my identity then they
    could probably pay me directly what it would cost to recover bank data
    giving them access to my measly accounts and I might let them. :)

    >
    >>>
    >>>>One doesn't need a gov't lab, however. "a dedicated
    >>>>team of computer forensics specialists, and a huge amount of time and money"
    >>>>(I would change 'huge' to moderate but expensive) could still get at the
    >>>>first data written but maybe not the overwrites of that first data.
    >>>>
    >>>>If it's really critical data...00 buckshot :)
    >>>
    >>> A sledgehammer and a contest works for me.
    >>>
    >>> "Ok, which one of you can break it into the most pieces with one hit?"
    >>>
    >>><snip>

    >
    > Shotguns are for things that shatter in a mentally satisfying manner when shot,
    > such as dead Linksys routers, some printers, AOL cds, etc.. Hard drives just
    > kind of lay there with holes in them after a shotgun blast, although they do
    > jump a bit when hit, depending on how close you are when you pull the trigger,
    > and what gauge of shotgun you use.


    Don't forget those old monitors. AOL CD's hanging on string- .22 on up.

    > "That's the voice of experience speaking."


    --
    Hours of fun
     
    Jimchip, May 3, 2006
    #12
  13. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    Mara <> wrote :

    > On Tue, 02 May 2006 23:20:25 -0000, Jimchip
    ><> wrote:
    >
    >>On 2006-05-02, Jim <> wrote:
    >>> http://dban.sourceforge.net/

    >>
    >>I actually believe their claims and have used the program:
    >>http://software.newsforge.com/print.pl?sid=05/09/14/178204
    >>"If you don't have a government lab, an electron microscope, a
    >>dedicated team of computer forensics specialists, and a huge
    >>amount of time and money, you will not recover your data after
    >>DBAN has wiped your hard drive."
    >>
    >>So for the consumer, just trying to clean up before a sale, I
    >>think it is a good choice. That's what the OP wants.

    >
    > This would work, too, for what the OP wants.
    >
    > http://www.heidi.ie/eraser/
    >
    >>One doesn't need a gov't lab, however. "a dedicated
    >>team of computer forensics specialists, and a huge amount of
    >>time and money" (I would change 'huge' to moderate but
    >>expensive) could still get at the first data written but maybe
    >>not the overwrites of that first data.
    >>
    >>If it's really critical data...00 buckshot :)

    >
    > A sledgehammer and a contest works for me.
    >
    > "Ok, which one of you can break it into the most pieces with
    > one hit?"
    >
    ><snip>
    >


    Oh yeah but it would be nice to sell both drives with the box, it
    sorta adds value. I found one thing called KillDisk that looks
    interesting. http://www.killdisk.com/
     
    Anonymous, May 3, 2006
    #13
  14. Anonymous

    Mitch Guest

    In article <>, Anonymous
    <> wrote:

    > How would you make sure that no one got any critical personal data
    > on you, or from you?
    >
    > Show them it works then format both hard drives? ( in our case we
    > have two )


    Why not format the drives first? Are you intending to sell them empty?

    All you really need to do is overwrite everything on the drive, using
    any tools that does that. Nothing more.

    Most of the comments seem to be talking about some kind of ideal
    situation where you are concerned with what is technically possible in
    every situation -- which doesn't seem to be what you are asking at all.

    I see nothing in your post that suggests asking what is technically
    possible (and still not likely) given governmental authorities with
    intense interest and immense resources. I think you are asking what is
    commonly necessary just to sell it to another individual, and that
    answer is very simple indeed and requires no special effort -- write
    over the entire hard drive (with all zeros, all ones, random data --
    doesn't matter).
     
    Mitch, May 3, 2006
    #14
  15. Anonymous

    Jimchip Guest

    On 2006-05-03, Anonymous <> wrote:
    > Mara <> wrote :
    >
    >> On Tue, 02 May 2006 23:20:25 -0000, Jimchip
    >><> wrote:
    >>
    >>>On 2006-05-02, Jim <> wrote:
    >>>> http://dban.sourceforge.net/
    >>>
    >>>I actually believe their claims and have used the program:
    >>>http://software.newsforge.com/print.pl?sid=05/09/14/178204
    >>>"If you don't have a government lab, an electron microscope, a
    >>>dedicated team of computer forensics specialists, and a huge
    >>>amount of time and money, you will not recover your data after
    >>>DBAN has wiped your hard drive."
    >>>
    >>>So for the consumer, just trying to clean up before a sale, I
    >>>think it is a good choice. That's what the OP wants.

    >>
    >> This would work, too, for what the OP wants.
    >>
    >> http://www.heidi.ie/eraser/
    >>
    >>>One doesn't need a gov't lab, however. "a dedicated
    >>>team of computer forensics specialists, and a huge amount of
    >>>time and money" (I would change 'huge' to moderate but
    >>>expensive) could still get at the first data written but maybe
    >>>not the overwrites of that first data.
    >>>
    >>>If it's really critical data...00 buckshot :)

    >>
    >> A sledgehammer and a contest works for me.
    >>
    >> "Ok, which one of you can break it into the most pieces with
    >> one hit?"
    >>
    >><snip>
    >>

    >
    > Oh yeah but it would be nice to sell both drives with the box, it
    > sorta adds value. I found one thing called KillDisk that looks
    > interesting. http://www.killdisk.com/


    Eraser is more robust. It uses Gutman's alogorithms:
    http://www.usenix.org/publications/library/proceedings/sec96/full_papers/gutmann/

    The free killdisk doesn't. The $$ killdisk does.

    --
    Might as well use the best free one.
    (signed) "GPL fan"
     
    Jimchip, May 3, 2006
    #15
  16. Anonymous

    Mara Guest

    On Wed, 03 May 2006 01:23:58 -0000, Jimchip
    <> wrote:

    >On 2006-05-03, Mara <> wrote:


    <snip>
    >> Mea culpa - I haven't been following the thread. What is the OP's OS?

    >
    >I thought it was Windows...Eraser was a good answer. It's GPL'd, too.
    >Those of us in a multi-OS environment rely on dban (when the shotguns are
    >not allowed) :)


    Damned shame, that. Shotguns should *always* be allowed around recalcitrant
    hardware. In fact, it should be mandatory.

    >Really though, I like dban because it's a single floppy or CD that runs on
    >any i386 or compatible. I haven't tried it with any SATA drives yet.


    I know Eraser will run from cd and you can create a Boot Nuke floppy disk with
    it, and there *is* a version for DOS. I don't think the current version will fit
    on a floppy, but haven't checked.

    I do know it runs perfectly on my SATA RAID stripe. :)

    >> I would think that overwriting an average hdd (w/Windows, etc..) with the DOJ
    >> algorithm 7 times would do the job for simpler things.

    >
    >One would have to be a serious criminal or the data would have to be *very*
    >valuable (trade-secret) before it would be a concern.


    Or ePH information.

    >3 or 4 times for anybody.
    >A standard of 7. If someone wants to steal my identity then they
    >could probably pay me directly what it would cost to recover bank data
    >giving them access to my measly accounts and I might let them. :)


    Wouldn't do them any good here. The doctor pretty much cleaned mine out. In fact
    the last time I was in I told him that I was just going to start giving him my
    paychecks, since he was ending up with most of them anyway. ;)

    >>>>
    >>>>>One doesn't need a gov't lab, however. "a dedicated
    >>>>>team of computer forensics specialists, and a huge amount of time and money"
    >>>>>(I would change 'huge' to moderate but expensive) could still get at the
    >>>>>first data written but maybe not the overwrites of that first data.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>If it's really critical data...00 buckshot :)
    >>>>
    >>>> A sledgehammer and a contest works for me.
    >>>>
    >>>> "Ok, which one of you can break it into the most pieces with one hit?"
    >>>>
    >>>><snip>

    >>
    >> Shotguns are for things that shatter in a mentally satisfying manner when shot,
    >> such as dead Linksys routers, some printers, AOL cds, etc.. Hard drives just
    >> kind of lay there with holes in them after a shotgun blast, although they do
    >> jump a bit when hit, depending on how close you are when you pull the trigger,
    >> and what gauge of shotgun you use.

    >
    >Don't forget those old monitors.


    That's a job for a Browning BLR Lightning, .308 Win. carts. Right through the
    front.

    >AOL CD's hanging on string- .22 on up.


    They blow up quite nicely with a 20-gauge, and they're so light that they make
    good skeet-accuracy targets. But, for some reason, I don't get them in the mail
    anymore. <sigh>

    --
    You don't negotiate with spammers any more than you negotiate with
    cockroaches: you nuke them. --Rsk
     
    Mara, May 3, 2006
    #16
  17. Anonymous

    Anonymous Guest

    Mitch <> wrote :

    > In article <>, Anonymous
    ><> wrote:
    >
    >> How would you make sure that no one got any critical personal
    >> data on you, or from you?
    >>
    >> Show them it works then format both hard drives? ( in our
    >> case we have two )

    >
    > Why not format the drives first? Are you intending to sell
    > them empty?


    I understand even formatting may not help as much as something
    like Eraser.

    I'm thinking of selling them empty yes. I can show the buyer that
    they work first. Or I can sell them with the Win 98 the box came
    with, though I'm not sure if that would be doing the buyer any
    favors.

    >
    > All you really need to do is overwrite everything on the
    > drive, using any tools that does that. Nothing more.
    >
    > Most of the comments seem to be talking about some kind of
    > ideal situation where you are concerned with what is
    > technically possible in every situation -- which doesn't seem
    > to be what you are asking at all.


    Yeah, I doubt anyone would be interested in passwords and stuff.

    > I see nothing in your post that suggests asking what is
    > technically possible (and still not likely) given governmental
    > authorities with intense interest and immense resources. I
    > think you are asking what is commonly necessary just to sell
    > it to another individual, and that answer is very simple
    > indeed and requires no special effort -- write over the entire
    > hard drive (with all zeros, all ones, random data -- doesn't
    > matter).


    That Eraser sounds good, and is free.
     
    Anonymous, May 3, 2006
    #17
  18. Anonymous

    Jimchip Guest

    On 2006-05-03, Mara <> wrote:
    > On Wed, 03 May 2006 01:23:58 -0000, Jimchip
    ><> wrote:

    [snip]
    >>3 or 4 times for anybody.
    >>A standard of 7. If someone wants to steal my identity then they
    >>could probably pay me directly what it would cost to recover bank data
    >>giving them access to my measly accounts and I might let them. :)

    >
    > Wouldn't do them any good here. The doctor pretty much cleaned mine out. In fact
    > the last time I was in I told him that I was just going to start giving him my
    > paychecks, since he was ending up with most of them anyway. ;)


    Old Henny Youngman joke:
    I went to the doctor. I said "Doctor, I have this pain right here".
    The doctor put his hand on my wallet and said "Cough".

    [snip]

    --
    The auto mechanic went to the psychiatrist. He started out describing
    himself by saying, "I'm an auto mechanic".
    The doctor said, "Get under the couch".
     
    Jimchip, May 3, 2006
    #18
  19. Anonymous

    Mama Bear Guest

    Jimchip <> wrote :

    > On 2006-05-03, Mara <> wrote:
    >> On Wed, 03 May 2006 01:23:58 -0000, Jimchip
    >><> wrote:

    > [snip]
    >>>3 or 4 times for anybody.
    >>>A standard of 7. If someone wants to steal my identity then
    >>>they could probably pay me directly what it would cost to
    >>>recover bank data giving them access to my measly accounts
    >>>and I might let them. :)

    >>
    >> Wouldn't do them any good here. The doctor pretty much
    >> cleaned mine out. In fact the last time I was in I told him
    >> that I was just going to start giving him my paychecks, since
    >> he was ending up with most of them anyway. ;)

    >
    > Old Henny Youngman joke:
    > I went to the doctor. I said "Doctor, I have this pain right
    > here". The doctor put his hand on my wallet and said "Cough".
    >
    > [snip]


    In the Sopranos they referred to it as a "wallet biopsy", a test
    to see if the patient could be helped.



    --
    - Mama Bear
     
    Mama Bear, May 3, 2006
    #19
  20. Anonymous

    Meat Plow Guest

    On Tue, 02 May 2006 16:38:43 -0500, Anonymous wrote:

    > How would you make sure that no one got any critical personal data on you,
    > or from you?
    >
    > Show them it works then format both hard drives? ( in our case we have two
    > )


    Depends on what you had stored on the drives and how savvy the buyer is.

    --

    Pierre Salinger Memorial Hook, Line & Sinker, June 2004
     
    Meat Plow, May 3, 2006
    #20
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