ICE in Film Scanners

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Jim, Nov 11, 2003.

  1. Jim

    Jim Guest

    Based on responses in this newsgroup, am seriously considering purchasing a
    Minolta Dimage Scan Dual III from Amazon.com (around $280, new).

    As I understand it, ICE is a built-in in some scanners designed to
    reduce/eliminate dust.

    I'm about to tackle several thousand 35mm slides (yeah, I'll cull them
    waaaay down) and am not sure if the above scanner contains ICE feature.

    Does it? Can someone explain ICE and what it stands for?

    Thanx

    Jim from Hilton Head
    --
    Remove the obvious to reply.
     
    Jim, Nov 11, 2003
    #1
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  2. Jim

    Ed E. Guest

    That scanner does NOT have ICE built-in. Instead, it has Minolta's
    super-lame dust removal software.

    Something you should know about that scanner - dust is a BIG problem. The
    optics are such that any dust is exaggerated. It's really that bad, and
    their software doesn't do much to make it any better.

    If you're really going to be ripping through thousands of images and don't
    want to spend months retouching pictures, seriously consider a scanner with
    ICE. It makes a world of difference. A used one with ICE can be picked up
    for less than you're ready to spend on the SD3. Also consider using VueScan
    (www.Hamrick.com) as an alternate to the included scanner software.
     
    Ed E., Nov 11, 2003
    #2
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  3. Jim

    HRosita Guest

    Hi,

    I don't think the
    Rosita
     
    HRosita, Nov 11, 2003
    #3
  4. Jim

    Bowsér Guest

    Ed E is right, get a scanner with the real thing; ICE. Spend a little extra
    on a scanner with ICE, and you'll save countless hours of retouching. And
    don't think you can totally clean each and every slide and neg, you can't.

    "Jim" <> wrote in message
    news:BBD6A8DD.1ACAB%...
    > Based on responses in this newsgroup, am seriously considering purchasing

    a
    > Minolta Dimage Scan Dual III from Amazon.com (around $280, new).
    >
    > As I understand it, ICE is a built-in in some scanners designed to
    > reduce/eliminate dust.
    >
    > I'm about to tackle several thousand 35mm slides (yeah, I'll cull them
    > waaaay down) and am not sure if the above scanner contains ICE feature.
    >
    > Does it? Can someone explain ICE and what it stands for?
    >
    > Thanx
    >
    > Jim from Hilton Head
    > --
    > Remove the obvious to reply.
    >
    >
     
    Bowsér, Nov 11, 2003
    #4
  5. Jim

    Tony Spadaro Guest

    ICE is worth the money unless your slides are in pristine condition. I have
    saved thousands of hours spotting out oldd slides by scanning with ICE. It
    is a combination of hardware and software and cannot be added to a scanner
    after manufacture, unlike most "dust and scratch" filters it is not a blur
    and sharpen, but uses an actual IR channel to see through junk on the
    surface, and software to interpolate missing information.
    If you do you scanning while doing something else (like watching tv) you
    can go through a fair number of slides a night. It took me about a year to
    catch up on my backlog.

    --
    http://www.chapelhillnoir.com
    home of The Camera-ist's Manifesto
    The Improved Links Pages are at
    http://www.chapelhillnoir.com/links/mlinks00.html
    A sample chapter from my novel "Haight-Ashbury" is at
    http://www.chapelhillnoir.com/writ/hait/hatitl.html
    "Jim" <> wrote in message
    news:BBD6A8DD.1ACAB%...
    > Based on responses in this newsgroup, am seriously considering purchasing

    a
    > Minolta Dimage Scan Dual III from Amazon.com (around $280, new).
    >
    > As I understand it, ICE is a built-in in some scanners designed to
    > reduce/eliminate dust.
    >
    > I'm about to tackle several thousand 35mm slides (yeah, I'll cull them
    > waaaay down) and am not sure if the above scanner contains ICE feature.
    >
    > Does it? Can someone explain ICE and what it stands for?
    >
    > Thanx
    >
    > Jim from Hilton Head
    > --
    > Remove the obvious to reply.
    >
    >
     
    Tony Spadaro, Nov 11, 2003
    #5
  6. Jim

    Trev Guest

    "Tony Spadaro" <> wrote in message
    news:Hodsb.111586$...
    > ICE is worth the money unless your slides are in pristine condition. I

    have
    > saved thousands of hours spotting out oldd slides by scanning with

    ICE. It
    > is a combination of hardware and software and cannot be added to a

    scanner
    > after manufacture, unlike most "dust and scratch" filters it is not a

    blur
    > and sharpen, but uses an actual IR channel to see through junk on the
    > surface, and software to interpolate missing information.
    > If you do you scanning while doing something else (like watching

    tv) you
    > can go through a fair number of slides a night. It took me about a

    year to
    > catch up on my backlog.


    Ice Is a regesterd trade mark.

    Minolta Has the same thing but with a diferant name as does Cannon
     
    Trev, Nov 11, 2003
    #6
  7. Jim

    Rafe B. Guest

    On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 19:55:23 GMT, Jim <>
    wrote:

    >Based on responses in this newsgroup, am seriously considering purchasing a
    >Minolta Dimage Scan Dual III from Amazon.com (around $280, new).
    >
    >As I understand it, ICE is a built-in in some scanners designed to
    >reduce/eliminate dust.
    >
    >I'm about to tackle several thousand 35mm slides (yeah, I'll cull them
    >waaaay down) and am not sure if the above scanner contains ICE feature.
    >
    >Does it? Can someone explain ICE and what it stands for?



    If it has ICE, the ad copy will say so for sure.

    ICE is a technology developed by Applied Science
    Fiction (yep, that's really their name) and licensed for
    use in various scanners -- mostly film scanners, but
    lately in some flatbeds also.

    In any case, the license to use and implement ICE
    costs some $$ so you can be sure that if a scanner
    has it, it will say so.

    ICE involves a separate IR (infrared) illumination
    channel, and firmware that reads the slide or
    negative through the CCD with the IR illumination.

    That's about all I know other than: it works, and
    it's as close to magic as anything I've seen in the
    digital imaging game. It has saved me hundreds
    of hours of spotting and scratch-removing in
    Photoshop.

    PS: Appartently Canon has developed a similar
    technology in their film scanners that somehow
    skirts the ICE licensing issue. As a result, Canon
    calls their scheme "FARE" although I believe it
    works by similar principles as ASF's ICE.



    rafe b.
    http://www.terrapinphoto.com
     
    Rafe B., Nov 12, 2003
    #7
  8. Jim

    Tony Spadaro Guest

    Canon uses a propriatory system that is very similar but I think Minolta is
    using ICE. They were a couple years ago.

    --
    http://www.chapelhillnoir.com
    home of The Camera-ist's Manifesto
    The Improved Links Pages are at
    http://www.chapelhillnoir.com/links/mlinks00.html
    A sample chapter from my novel "Haight-Ashbury" is at
    http://www.chapelhillnoir.com/writ/hait/hatitl.html
    "Trev" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    > "Tony Spadaro" <> wrote in message
    > news:Hodsb.111586$...
    > > ICE is worth the money unless your slides are in pristine condition. I

    > have
    > > saved thousands of hours spotting out oldd slides by scanning with

    > ICE. It
    > > is a combination of hardware and software and cannot be added to a

    > scanner
    > > after manufacture, unlike most "dust and scratch" filters it is not a

    > blur
    > > and sharpen, but uses an actual IR channel to see through junk on the
    > > surface, and software to interpolate missing information.
    > > If you do you scanning while doing something else (like watching

    > tv) you
    > > can go through a fair number of slides a night. It took me about a

    > year to
    > > catch up on my backlog.

    >
    > Ice Is a regesterd trade mark.
    >
    > Minolta Has the same thing but with a diferant name as does Cannon
    >
    >
     
    Tony Spadaro, Nov 12, 2003
    #8
  9. Jim

    RAD Guest

    Want to finish this one Rosita, please?


    HRosita wrote:
    > Hi,
    >
    > I don't think the
    > Rosita
    >
    >
     
    RAD, Nov 12, 2003
    #9
  10. "Ed E." <> wrote in message news:<>...
    > That scanner does NOT have ICE built-in. Instead, it has Minolta's
    > super-lame dust removal software.
    >
    > Something you should know about that scanner - dust is a BIG problem. The
    > optics are such that any dust is exaggerated. It's really that bad, and
    > their software doesn't do much to make it any better.
    >
    > If you're really going to be ripping through thousands of images and don't
    > want to spend months retouching pictures, seriously consider a scanner with
    > ICE. It makes a world of difference. A used one with ICE can be picked up
    > for less than you're ready to spend on the SD3. Also consider using VueScan
    > (www.Hamrick.com) as an alternate to the included scanner software.


    Just to say I second the use of Ed Hamrick's VueScan. It is
    well worth the US$45 for the full version.

    Chris.
     
    Chris McBrien, Nov 12, 2003
    #10
  11. Jim

    Robert Lynch Guest

    "Trev" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Ice Is a regesterd trade mark.
    >
    > Minolta Has the same thing but with a diferant name as does Cannon


    The front of my Minolta 5400 scanner has a great big
    Applied Science Fiction Digital ICE logo on it.

    (OK, it's not that big.)
     
    Robert Lynch, Nov 12, 2003
    #11
  12. Jim

    HRosita Guest

    >RAD wrote:

    >Want to finish this one Rosita, please?


    Hi,

    Sorry about too quick a finger on the send button.
    I have a Minolta 5400. It does have ICE and something called Pixel Polish.

    Like a previous poster said, ICE is magic.
    It does add about one minute to the scan duration.
    I believe the Minolta Scan Elite II has ICE the Dual has not.

    I could not find what ICE stands for but here is a url with an example:
    http://www.appliedsciencefiction.com/products/ice/FilmICEOverview.shtml

    By the way, AppliedScienceFiction is now called Austin Research Center and is
    owned by Kodak.

    In addition to ICE they have developed GEM and ROC tht Nikon scanners use.
    Rosita
     
    HRosita, Nov 12, 2003
    #12
  13. Jim

    Trabajador Guest

    One more note - ICE isn't for B&W negatives, only for colour negs and
    transparencies. Just FYI...
     
    Trabajador, Nov 12, 2003
    #13
  14. HRosita wrote:

    > >RAD wrote:

    >
    > >Want to finish this one Rosita, please?

    >
    > Hi,
    >
    > Sorry about too quick a finger on the send button.
    > I have a Minolta 5400. It does have ICE and something called Pixel Polish.
    >
    > Like a previous poster said, ICE is magic.
    > It does add about one minute to the scan duration.
    > I believe the Minolta Scan Elite II has ICE the Dual has not.
    >
    > I could not find what ICE stands for but here is a url with an example:
    > http://www.appliedsciencefiction.com/products/ice/FilmICEOverview.shtml
    >
    > By the way, AppliedScienceFiction is now called Austin Research Center and is
    > owned by Kodak.
    >
    > In addition to ICE they have developed GEM and ROC tht Nikon scanners use.
    > Rosita


    Is there a price to pay in image quality when using ICE?
    Has anybody compared the sharpness/color fidelity/saturation/etc. of a scan with
    and without ICE.
    Is the difference noticeable? With/without a loupe?
    Thanks for info.
    Bob Williams
     
    Robert E. Williams, Nov 12, 2003
    #14
  15. Jim

    Ed E. Guest


    > Is there a price to pay in image quality when using ICE?
    > Has anybody compared the sharpness/color fidelity/saturation/etc. of a

    scan with
    > and without ICE.
    > Is the difference noticeable? With/without a loupe?


    Bob, using the ICE that comes with Nikon's scanners, there is a noticeable
    softening to the image. You don't need to break out the loupe to see it.
    However, VueScan's version of ICE still uses the infrared hardware in the
    scanner but does something obviously different. With his dust removal, I
    don't see any signs of softening or image degradation. His algorithm is
    also noticeably faster than the genuine ICE version. I've scanned a few
    different types of film and found the same to be true for all of them. So I
    just leave it on and let it rip.
     
    Ed E., Nov 12, 2003
    #15
  16. Jim

    Jim Guest

    Ed, and all others who answered my original post, thanks.

    I've already sent back a Smartscan 2700 (software didn't work) and thought
    the Dimage Dual Scan III was the answer, because it's in my price range.
    But it doesn't have ICE. I've looked at the VueScan site (www.hamrick.com)
    and it LOOKS like an answer to the dust problem.

    If I get the DualScan III, does loading a full purchased version of VueScan
    take the place of the Minolta software during the scan process?

    Been burned by used stuff in the past and am reluctant to go that route.

    Is the DS III/VueScan my answer, or is there another film scanner out
    there in the $300 range?

    Thanks,
    Jim from Hilton Head

    --
    Remove the obvious to reply.


    > From: "Ed E." <>
    > Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
    > Newsgroups: rec.photo.digital
    > Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 14:53:43 -0500
    > Subject: Re: ICE in Film Scanners
    >
    >
    >> Is there a price to pay in image quality when using ICE?
    >> Has anybody compared the sharpness/color fidelity/saturation/etc. of a

    > scan with
    >> and without ICE.
    >> Is the difference noticeable? With/without a loupe?

    >
    > Bob, using the ICE that comes with Nikon's scanners, there is a noticeable
    > softening to the image. You don't need to break out the loupe to see it.
    > However, VueScan's version of ICE still uses the infrared hardware in the
    > scanner but does something obviously different. With his dust removal, I
    > don't see any signs of softening or image degradation. His algorithm is
    > also noticeably faster than the genuine ICE version. I've scanned a few
    > different types of film and found the same to be true for all of them. So I
    > just leave it on and let it rip.
    >
    >
     
    Jim, Nov 12, 2003
    #16
  17. Jim

    FOR7b Guest

    >> Is there a price to pay in image quality when using ICE?
    >> Has anybody compared the sharpness/color fidelity/saturation/etc. of a

    >scan with
    >> and without ICE.
    >> Is the difference noticeable? With/without a loupe?

    >
    >Bob, using the ICE that comes with Nikon's scanners, there is a noticeable
    >softening to the image. You don't need to break out the loupe to see it.
    >However, VueScan's version of ICE still uses the infrared hardware in the
    >scanner but does something obviously different. With his dust removal, I
    >don't see any signs of softening or image degradation. His algorithm is
    >also noticeably faster than the genuine ICE version. I've scanned a few
    >different types of film and found the same to be true for all of them. So I
    >just leave it on and let it rip.
    >


    I am using a Canon FS4000 that uses FARE which is similar to ICE but am using
    it with Vuescan. At the lowest dust removal setting I see no softening of the
    image at all and usually near perfect dust removal. With Canon's own software
    there is no apparent softening either on the normal setting *but* the Canon
    software takes a shotgun approach to cloning the detected areas of dust in that
    if you examine a scan closely there is little to no area of the image that does
    not have any cloning done to it. Again, initially it isn't apparent but when
    looking at a 4000 dpi scan at 1:1 it is obvious. That approach also ruins alot
    of detail even though it isn't affecting apparent sharpness. That is my main
    reason for using Vuescan as the cloning it does is not all over the image but
    on those areas of the scan where dust is detected. It would be nice to hear Ed
    Hamrick, the software developer/programmer for Vuescan, describe the difference
    because his Vuescan is clearly superior in handling dust removal than Canon's
    own software.

    If anyone is interested in seeing the difference between Canon's software and
    Vuescan in removing dust with my FS4000 let me know and I will post an example.


     
    FOR7b, Nov 12, 2003
    #17
  18. Jim

    FOR7b Guest

    >Ed, and all others who answered my original post, thanks.
    >
    >I've already sent back a Smartscan 2700 (software didn't work) and thought
    >the Dimage Dual Scan III was the answer, because it's in my price range.
    >But it doesn't have ICE. I've looked at the VueScan site (www.hamrick.com)
    >and it LOOKS like an answer to the dust problem.
    >
    >If I get the DualScan III, does loading a full purchased version of VueScan
    >take the place of the Minolta software during the scan process?
    >
    >Been burned by used stuff in the past and am reluctant to go that route.
    >
    >Is the DS III/VueScan my answer, or is there another film scanner out
    >there in the $300 range?
    >
    >Thanks,
    >Jim from Hilton Head
    >


    I would advice against the Minolta Dual III and instead look for a used Nikon
    LS-30 which will be in the same price range, or less, and will have Digital ICE
    dust removal. The Dual Scan III does not have Digital ICE. The Nikon is 2700
    dpi.




     
    FOR7b, Nov 12, 2003
    #18
  19. Jim

    Ed E. Guest

    > If I get the DualScan III, does loading a full purchased version of
    VueScan
    > take the place of the Minolta software during the scan process?
    >
    > Been burned by used stuff in the past and am reluctant to go that route.
    >
    > Is the DS III/VueScan my answer, or is there another film scanner out
    > there in the $300 range?


    If you're at all concerned about dust (which you obviously are), DON'T get
    the DS3. VueScan cannot remove dust if your scanner doesn't have the
    infrared hardware built-in.

    If you want to stay under $300, check eBay for some older models that do
    have ICE. In that price range, Minolta Scan Elite's are good. If you can
    find a Nikon CoolScan LS-IV, they're very good as well. There are usually a
    dozen or two refurbished Minolta's being sold at any given time. Just buy
    from someone who will give you some kind of warranty, a good eBay feedback
    rating, and you should be fine.

    If you want to see the difference between a non-ICE picture and one after
    dust removal using your own film, e-mail me privately.
     
    Ed E., Nov 12, 2003
    #19
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