ICC profile connection space

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Dale, Oct 27, 2012.

  1. Dale

    Dale Guest

    the current ICC profile connection space is an ideal print, or maybe an
    ideal subtractive system http://www.color.org

    for transparent display, translucent display, motion picture display and
    other additive systems like CRTs LCDs etc. this means you have to create
    information to render the ideal print to these spaces

    wouldn't it be better too have an ideal additive system as the profile
    connection space and compress the tone and color the data for prints, as
    opposed to creating information for additive systems

    probably would lead to more precise capture rendering too


    --
    Dale
    Dale, Oct 27, 2012
    #1
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  2. Am 27.10.2012 09:37, schrieb Dale:
    > the current ICC profile connection space is an ideal print, or maybe an
    > ideal subtractive system http://www.color.org
    >
    > for transparent display, translucent display, motion picture display and
    > other additive systems like CRTs LCDs etc. this means you have to create
    > information to render the ideal print to these spaces
    >
    > wouldn't it be better too have an ideal additive system as the profile
    > connection space and compress the tone and color the data for prints, as
    > opposed to creating information for additive systems
    >
    > probably would lead to more precise capture rendering too


    I beg your pardon, but one of the choices for the profile connection
    space is XYZ which is a perfectly linear, additive system.

    Greetings,
    Thomas
    Thomas Richter, Oct 27, 2012
    #2
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  3. Dale

    Dale Guest

    On 10/27/2012 09:24 AM, Thomas Richter wrote:
    > Am 27.10.2012 09:37, schrieb Dale:
    >> the current ICC profile connection space is an ideal print, or maybe an
    >> ideal subtractive system http://www.color.org
    >>
    >> for transparent display, translucent display, motion picture display and
    >> other additive systems like CRTs LCDs etc. this means you have to create
    >> information to render the ideal print to these spaces
    >>
    >> wouldn't it be better too have an ideal additive system as the profile
    >> connection space and compress the tone and color the data for prints, as
    >> opposed to creating information for additive systems
    >>
    >> probably would lead to more precise capture rendering too

    >
    > I beg your pardon, but one of the choices for the profile connection
    > space is XYZ which is a perfectly linear, additive system.
    >
    > Greetings,
    > Thomas



    isn't this the XYZ relative to an ideal print? I'm pretty sure it is.
    There is also the difference between color matching and appearance
    matching. Appearance matching can be image dependent so you would have
    to use some kind of scene balance algorithm, SBA , which doesn't quite
    work for professional images and is best left to the image
    editor/artist. SBA can prove good enough for most consumer images.

    --
    Dale
    Dale, Oct 27, 2012
    #3
  4. Dale

    Dale Guest

    On 10/27/2012 09:24 AM, Thomas Richter wrote:
    > Am 27.10.2012 09:37, schrieb Dale:
    >> the current ICC profile connection space is an ideal print, or maybe an
    >> ideal subtractive system http://www.color.org
    >>
    >> for transparent display, translucent display, motion picture display and
    >> other additive systems like CRTs LCDs etc. this means you have to create
    >> information to render the ideal print to these spaces
    >>
    >> wouldn't it be better too have an ideal additive system as the profile
    >> connection space and compress the tone and color the data for prints, as
    >> opposed to creating information for additive systems
    >>
    >> probably would lead to more precise capture rendering too

    >
    > I beg your pardon, but one of the choices for the profile connection
    > space is XYZ which is a perfectly linear, additive system.
    >
    > Greetings,
    > Thomas


    not exactly, you can't have an absolute profile connection space and
    have appearance matching, you need a reference medium for the profile
    connection space, which there is

    D50 would be a better choice for an ideal additive reference system, it
    could be used for some systems looking beyond the visual spectrum also,
    whereas XYZ is limited to the visual spectrum


    --
    Dale
    Dale, Oct 27, 2012
    #4
  5. Dale

    Dale Guest

    On 10/27/2012 10:56 AM, Dale wrote:
    > beyond the visual spectrum


    the infrared

    and the ultraviolence

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clockwork_orange

    "Does God want good, or the choice of goodness, is the man who chooses
    the bad, in some way better than the man who has the good forced upon him."

    --
    Dale
    Dale, Oct 27, 2012
    #5
  6. Dale

    Dale Guest

    On 10/27/2012 10:56 AM, Dale wrote:
    > D50 would be a better choice


    strike that, sorry, needs XYZ and a reference additive display device,
    like a television, motion picture projector, computer monitor, etc.


    --
    Dale
    Dale, Oct 27, 2012
    #6
  7. Dale

    Dale Guest

    On 10/27/2012 11:52 AM, Dale wrote:
    > On 10/27/2012 10:56 AM, Dale wrote:
    >> D50 would be a better choice

    >
    > strike that, sorry, needs XYZ and a reference additive display device,
    > like a television, motion picture projector, computer monitor, etc.
    >
    >


    or maybe D50, XYZ, and an ideal transparency or set of filters


    --
    Dale
    Dale, Oct 27, 2012
    #7
  8. Dale

    Dale Guest

    On 10/27/2012 09:24 AM, Thomas Richter wrote:
    > Am 27.10.2012 09:37, schrieb Dale:
    >> the current ICC profile connection space is an ideal print, or maybe an
    >> ideal subtractive system http://www.color.org
    >>
    >> for transparent display, translucent display, motion picture display and
    >> other additive systems like CRTs LCDs etc. this means you have to create
    >> information to render the ideal print to these spaces
    >>
    >> wouldn't it be better too have an ideal additive system as the profile
    >> connection space and compress the tone and color the data for prints, as
    >> opposed to creating information for additive systems
    >>
    >> probably would lead to more precise capture rendering too

    >
    > I beg your pardon, but one of the choices for the profile connection
    > space is XYZ which is a perfectly linear, additive system.
    >
    > Greetings,
    > Thomas


    not a good encoding or calculation space, need E*

    probably added to the mix for people who want to avoid the right
    calculations


    --
    Dale
    Dale, Oct 28, 2012
    #8
  9. Am 27.10.2012 16:27, schrieb Dale:

    > isn't this the XYZ relative to an ideal print?


    No. XYZ is a perfectly additive space based on physical intensities and
    spectral curves based on work of the CIE.

    > I'm pretty sure it is.


    You are confused.

    > There is also the difference between color matching and appearance
    > matching.


    Which is irrelevant for the question of the profile connection space. It
    is the matter of how an ICC color management module implements the
    conversion between source and target space.

    > Appearance matching can be image dependent so you would have
    > to use some kind of scene balance algorithm, SBA , which doesn't quite
    > work for professional images and is best left to the image
    > editor/artist. SBA can prove good enough for most consumer images.


    And your point is?
    Thomas Richter, Oct 29, 2012
    #9
  10. Am 27.10.2012 16:56, schrieb Dale:

    > not exactly, you can't have an absolute profile connection space and
    > have appearance matching, you need a reference medium for the profile
    > connection space, which there is
    >
    > D50 would be a better choice for an ideal additive reference system, it
    > could be used for some systems looking beyond the visual spectrum also,
    > whereas XYZ is limited to the visual spectrum


    D50 is not a reference system. It is a white point. XYZ is an absolute
    color system - you only need a white point if you need a white point
    adaption, i.e. if you want to map the scene white point to the target
    (display device, printer etc) white point. Not said that you shouldn't
    do that, but that's a different task and part of what a CMM might or
    might not implement, for example by means of a Bradford transformation.

    Of course XYZ is "limited" to the visual spectrum, that's the whole
    point of XYZ - what is visible by humans. If you need color matching for
    your canary bird, well, XYZ and ICC profiles are not for you. But I
    believe that then the market for such technology is pretty limited. (-:
    Thomas Richter, Oct 29, 2012
    #10
  11. Dale

    Dale Guest

    On 10/29/2012 04:52 AM, Thomas Richter wrote:
    > Am 27.10.2012 16:56, schrieb Dale:
    >
    >> not exactly, you can't have an absolute profile connection space and
    >> have appearance matching, you need a reference medium for the profile
    >> connection space, which there is
    >>
    >> D50 would be a better choice for an ideal additive reference system, it
    >> could be used for some systems looking beyond the visual spectrum also,
    >> whereas XYZ is limited to the visual spectrum

    >
    > D50 is not a reference system. It is a white point. XYZ is an absolute
    > color system - you only need a white point if you need a white point
    > adaption, i.e. if you want to map the scene white point to the target
    > (display device, printer etc) white point. Not said that you shouldn't
    > do that, but that's a different task and part of what a CMM might or
    > might not implement, for example by means of a Bradford transformation.
    >
    > Of course XYZ is "limited" to the visual spectrum, that's the whole
    > point of XYZ - what is visible by humans. If you need color matching for
    > your canary bird, well, XYZ and ICC profiles are not for you. But I
    > believe that then the market for such technology is pretty limited. (-:
    >
    >
    >
    >


    I will restate, it is the intent and working space I have a problem with
    and in so the CMM

    the perceptual and saturation and relative colorimetric intents are
    based on an ideal print, absolute colorimetric is not,

    absolute colorimetric intent might have a use case for converting
    between the same devices, that is all I see

    my problem with working spaces is most applications (I use gimp) don't
    allow CIELAB, CIELUV or CIEXYZ working spaces

    and gimp doesn't allow you to choose the connection space, I think this
    is specified in the profiles not the CMM

    --
    Dale
    Dale, Oct 30, 2012
    #11
  12. Am 30.10.2012 12:50, schrieb Dale:

    > I will restate, it is the intent and working space I have a problem with
    > and in so the CMM.
    >
    > the perceptual and saturation and relative colorimetric intents are
    > based on an ideal print, absolute colorimetric is not,


    Not really. Perceptual and saturation are not based on "print", but
    "reproduction by an output device". Whether that is a monitor or a
    printer is irrelevant for the purpose of a CMM. Neither would I say
    "ideal" because it is the job of the profile to compensate for the
    non-idealness of the device. If the device and the profile do not fit to
    each other, then this is not the failure of the CMM, but the vendor by
    providing you a profile that is wrong.

    > absolute colorimetric intent might have a use case for converting
    > between the same devices, that is all I see


    No, it is just a matter of what your intent is. Absolute is just one
    possible intent, i.e. get exactly the same colors. That means, of course
    due to adaption of the human eye, that the colors will look different
    under different illumination, even for devices that create their colors
    themselves (such as monitors), but it is of course more a problem for
    devices using a multiplicative color reproduction (such as printers).

    > my problem with working spaces is most applications (I use gimp) don't
    > allow CIELAB, CIELUV or CIEXYZ working spaces


    Huh? First of all, the choice of the PCS does, ideally, not change the
    rendering. The PCS is just the coordinate system within which the
    profiles are specified, and the PCS is used as a common fixpoint between
    input and output device, nothing more. Thus, up to numerical errors,
    whether the PCS is XYZ or CIELab shouldn't make a difference, just that
    some profiles and rendering intents are more easily expressed with
    CIELab than XYZ.

    Second, if gimp is your problem, why not report to the gimp authors?
    Nobody here can help you with the deficiencies of gimp (only 8 bit per
    sample, no ICC support). You can either a) report to the gimp team, or
    b) supply patches to fix the problem, or c) use another program, but
    your approach d) complain about it here is not very efficient and won't
    help at all.

    > and gimp doesn't allow you to choose the connection space, I think this
    > is specified in the profiles not the CMM


    Why should gimp do that? And what would be the purpose of that? Yes, the
    rendering intent is in the profiles, but it is up to the CMM to support
    other ones and reflect the choices of the user. Once again, the PCS does
    not encode a rendering intent, nor should it make any visible difference
    - it is only a coordinate system.

    Second, gimp doesn't allow you to use a fully calibrated color workflow,
    it only operates in the 8bpp "color space" your monitor seems to have.
    But if that's your problem, I suggest to buy more professional software
    that offers support ICC profiles.
    Thomas Richter, Oct 31, 2012
    #12
  13. Dale

    Dale Guest

    On 10/31/2012 03:40 AM, Thomas Richter wrote:
    >
    > Why should gimp do that? And what would be the purpose of that? Yes, the
    > rendering intent is in the profiles, but it is up to the CMM to support
    > other ones and reflect the choices of the user. Once again, the PCS does
    > not encode a rendering intent, nor should it make any visible difference
    > - it is only a coordinate system.


    okay the PCS isn't the problem alone, but the PRM, print reference
    medium is, and the PRM is what you get in the PCS unless you choose
    absolute colorimetric intent

    I think ProPhotoRGB PCS was chosen to try to deal with higher gamut
    spaces, but RGB isn't the best choice, should have chosen a CIE
    coordinate system, like XYZ


    --
    Dale
    Dale, Nov 1, 2012
    #13
  14. Dale

    Dale Guest

    On 10/31/2012 03:40 AM, Thomas Richter wrote:
    > Second, gimp doesn't allow you to use a fully calibrated color workflow,
    > it only operates in the 8bpp "color space" your monitor seems to have.
    > But if that's your problem, I suggest to buy more professional software
    > that offers support ICC profiles.


    gimp is free, and even better the upgrades are free

    --
    Dale
    Dale, Nov 1, 2012
    #14
  15. Dale

    Dale Guest

    On 10/31/2012 03:40 AM, Thomas Richter wrote:
    > Am 30.10.2012 12:50, schrieb Dale:
    >
    >> I will restate, it is the intent and working space I have a problem with
    >> and in so the CMM.
    >>
    >> the perceptual and saturation and relative colorimetric intents are
    >> based on an ideal print, absolute colorimetric is not,

    >
    > Not really. Perceptual and saturation are not based on "print", but
    > "reproduction by an output device". Whether that is a monitor or a
    > printer is irrelevant for the purpose of a CMM. Neither would I say
    > "ideal" because it is the job of the profile to compensate for the
    > non-idealness of the device. If the device and the profile do not fit to
    > each other, then this is not the failure of the CMM, but the vendor by
    > providing you a profile that is wrong.
    >
    >> absolute colorimetric intent might have a use case for converting
    >> between the same devices, that is all I see

    >
    > No, it is just a matter of what your intent is. Absolute is just one
    > possible intent, i.e. get exactly the same colors. That means, of course
    > due to adaption of the human eye, that the colors will look different
    > under different illumination, even for devices that create their colors
    > themselves (such as monitors), but it is of course more a problem for
    > devices using a multiplicative color reproduction (such as printers).
    >
    >> my problem with working spaces is most applications (I use gimp) don't
    >> allow CIELAB, CIELUV or CIEXYZ working spaces

    >
    > Huh? First of all, the choice of the PCS does, ideally, not change the
    > rendering. The PCS is just the coordinate system within which the
    > profiles are specified, and the PCS is used as a common fixpoint between
    > input and output device, nothing more. Thus, up to numerical errors,
    > whether the PCS is XYZ or CIELab shouldn't make a difference, just that
    > some profiles and rendering intents are more easily expressed with
    > CIELab than XYZ.
    >
    > Second, if gimp is your problem, why not report to the gimp authors?
    > Nobody here can help you with the deficiencies of gimp (only 8 bit per
    > sample, no ICC support). You can either a) report to the gimp team, or
    > b) supply patches to fix the problem, or c) use another program, but
    > your approach d) complain about it here is not very efficient and won't
    > help at all.
    >
    >> and gimp doesn't allow you to choose the connection space, I think this
    >> is specified in the profiles not the CMM

    >
    > Why should gimp do that?


    because you want control over that aspect of the workflow, for instance
    if an input profile asks for one thing and an output profile asks for
    another it is left up to the CMM to choose the PCS



    --
    Dale
    Dale, Nov 1, 2012
    #15
  16. Am 01.11.2012 09:54, schrieb Dale:

    >>> and gimp doesn't allow you to choose the connection space, I think this
    >>> is specified in the profiles not the CMM

    >>
    >> Why should gimp do that?

    >
    > because you want control over that aspect of the workflow, for instance
    > if an input profile asks for one thing and an output profile asks for
    > another it is left up to the CMM to choose the PCS


    You still don't understand the role of the PCS then. Once again,
    changing the PCS should not change the rendered result. It is just a
    matter of the coordinate system, but not the matter of the resulting
    transformation.
    Thomas Richter, Nov 1, 2012
    #16
  17. Am 01.11.2012 09:53, schrieb Dale:
    > On 10/31/2012 03:40 AM, Thomas Richter wrote:
    >> Second, gimp doesn't allow you to use a fully calibrated color workflow,
    >> it only operates in the 8bpp "color space" your monitor seems to have.
    >> But if that's your problem, I suggest to buy more professional software
    >> that offers support ICC profiles.

    >
    > gimp is free, and even better the upgrades are free


    I don't get you. You get what you pay for. Either gimp does what you
    need to do, then use it and be quiet. Or it doesn't, but then look for
    alternative solutions. *Here* nobody can help you with gimp. Wrong place
    for requesting improvements.
    Thomas Richter, Nov 1, 2012
    #17
  18. Dale

    Dale Guest

    On 11/01/2012 06:01 AM, Thomas Richter wrote:
    > Am 01.11.2012 09:53, schrieb Dale:
    >> On 10/31/2012 03:40 AM, Thomas Richter wrote:
    >>> Second, gimp doesn't allow you to use a fully calibrated color workflow,
    >>> it only operates in the 8bpp "color space" your monitor seems to have.
    >>> But if that's your problem, I suggest to buy more professional software
    >>> that offers support ICC profiles.

    >>
    >> gimp is free, and even better the upgrades are free

    >
    > I don't get you. You get what you pay for. Either gimp does what you
    > need to do, then use it and be quiet. Or it doesn't, but then look for
    > alternative solutions. *Here* nobody can help you with gimp. Wrong place
    > for requesting improvements.
    >
    >



    maybe gimp people are listening

    --
    Dale
    Dale, Nov 1, 2012
    #18
  19. Dale

    nospam Guest

    In article <>, Dale
    <> wrote:

    > > Second, gimp doesn't allow you to use a fully calibrated color workflow,
    > > it only operates in the 8bpp "color space" your monitor seems to have.
    > > But if that's your problem, I suggest to buy more professional software
    > > that offers support ICC profiles.

    >
    > gimp is free, and even better the upgrades are free


    gimp isn't even worth free.
    nospam, Nov 1, 2012
    #19
  20. Dale

    Dale Guest

    On 11/01/2012 05:58 AM, Thomas Richter wrote:
    > Am 01.11.2012 09:54, schrieb Dale:
    >
    >>>> and gimp doesn't allow you to choose the connection space, I think this
    >>>> is specified in the profiles not the CMM
    >>>
    >>> Why should gimp do that?

    >>
    >> because you want control over that aspect of the workflow, for instance
    >> if an input profile asks for one thing and an output profile asks for
    >> another it is left up to the CMM to choose the PCS

    >
    > You still don't understand the role of the PCS then. Once again,
    > changing the PCS should not change the rendered result. It is just a
    > matter of the coordinate system, but not the matter of the resulting
    > transformation.
    >


    look here http://www.color.org/v4_prmg.xalter


    --
    Dale
    Dale, Nov 2, 2012
    #20
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