I fear for my country and my people.

Discussion in 'Computer Support' started by OKC Computers, May 6, 2007.

  1. I remember when cartoons were fun to watch...tom & jerry, Elmer fud
    and bugs bunny..lol

    I remember when I used to be free to go anywhere I wanted; I rode my
    bike all over town, worry free and undisturbed. I remember my mother
    teaching me values and manners...my father discipline and respect,
    sometimes with a cold hand.

    I remember I always felt a sense of awe, wonder and pride when I stood
    up in class to pledge my allegiance to MY country......America.

    I remember when I could go to school; tease & get teased... fight with
    bullies or anyone that dared to fight. I almost always won, sometimes
    I lost.... I remember making the best friends I have ever known that way...
    mutual respect and understanding was usually the result.
    I remember when I could be a kid.

    I Remember when whites and blacks where learning to accept each other,
    I admit it wasn't always easy. Our differences and cultures were hard
    to understand. I remember getting in a fight one time, one of me
    against 3 bigger kids (I was always the runt)... Shaw, a bigger black
    kid pulled 2 of those boys off me..fought them as hard as I wanted to.
    I remember my shock...disbelief and gratitude. I will always remember
    his courage and heart.

    I miss those days. I miss a simple time in a simple life where we were
    not burdened with fear, war and even a government as corrupt as the
    day is long.

    We have a new fear that I don't believe many AMERICANS realize.
    Obviously I am open minded...not the type to hate for no reason. I am
    human, and these days my heart is troubled. We all, white and black,
    have a new threat. They are crossing our borders and in a matter of
    months they will have a free pass to do so at will, our government
    will ensure that...to ensure those "minority votes". This is not about
    race...it is about protecting YOUR quality of life, YOUR right to ensure
    fair wages that YOU can live on and feed YOUR families. God knows each
    of you that read this likely live week to week, as I do.

    We have many differences and it has taken this long for "us" to come
    to an acceptance of each other. Many tears, bloodshed and time have
    taught us that we can live together. But can we do it again, knowing
    that this new threat... a people that wish to change our laws, our
    language and our cultures to conform to their wishes, has no intention
    of ever respecting our nation and people?
    I could easily predict the future. Anyone can. It's really sad.... My
    heart cries for change. I, like you work hard to be successful,
    comfortable and secure. It's about to get a lot harder.
    The companies and corporations will raise prices on most all goods...
    slowly at first. This is how they will "balance" the wages vs. profits
    to ensure cheap labor. Our leaders will give them our rights, the
    rights that our ancestors have fought and died for. Now, in Vain.

    Over the next decade they will begin to obtain key positions in
    government office, never forgetting where they came from or the hatred
    they harbor for our people. Immigration reform will likely go through.
    If so; The 20 MILLION illegal's in our country will quickly rise to
    record numbers. Even for those that do "touch back" they will return...
    with sisters, brothers, friends and more family. It's estimated that
    at the CURRENT rate of immigration there will be over 50 MILLION
    Hispanic immigrants in America by 2050. That does not reflect the real
    numbers due to new laws that are about to be passed. It WILL be much,
    much higher.

    How can people in this nation remain ignorant to this obvious danger
    to our freedom, laws and quality of life? Do they not know that this
    people, Hispanic/mexicans, do not respect our way of life and hold a
    deep hatred for all of us that goes back hundreds of years? We
    conquered them in war for God's sake! And now we will let them overrun
    our country, create and break our laws at will, steal the identities
    of working Americans and our incompetent leaders then give them a free
    pass to citizenship?

    Traitors.

    If you have listened to me and read this far, thank you. I am an
    American citizen. My ancestors migrated here around 1910-1920 from
    Germany and Holland. I realize and respect that this country was
    founded by immigrants. But those immigrants built a great nation of
    principles, values and laws that were designed to protect all of us
    from persecution because of our religious beliefs and tyrant
    governments for generations to come.
    mexicans are not being persecuted by anyone. They are taking advantage
    of a countries political weakness to gain a foothold in the interest
    of their people, their culture and their future. They have, time and
    again, proved they have no regard for our laws, rights and freedoms.
    I know not everyone will agree with what I have to say, and you know
    what? TOUGH. I care about our people, white and black. WE built this
    country together, with the blood and tears of generations of our
    people. This is our land and we MUST NOW FIGHT TOGETHER.
    We must now ALL stand up and say NO MORE. If you agree with the
    fundamental principle of what I say; voice it wherever you go and
    however you can. If they call you racist; say so what. If they say you
    hate; say you just care. Post this online, blogs, forums and email. If
    God has given you a position of power, maybe management or office; be
    THE ONE that says what everyone else feels, but is afraid to say. We
    will all support you and respect your courage and heart.

    I want to get a movement started. I want change. I want for our
    government to stop spending BILLIONS of our dollars on useless wars
    and programs that do not benefit neglected and disadvantaged
    Americans. I want for poverty to end before we ever again think about
    opening our borders. I want all of us to know what "quality of life"
    really means. We can, if each of us has the courage to just say NO
    MORE.

    I know that as a small business owner I am not going to make a lot of
    friends...so what. There are more of US than there are of you. And WE
    will fight for our country again. We only wish to do it without war or
    force; we have far more to lose than you. This is our land and we must
    have the courage to stand up and persuade our leaders to put Americans
    first again , or else I fear there will be great bloodshed in America.
    http://www.myspace.com/americans_first
    OKC Computers, May 6, 2007
    #1
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  2. OKC Computers

    Old Gringo Guest

    On Or About 6 May 2007 02:04:59 -0700, Without Any Hesitation Or
    Thinking Twice, OKC Computers Stumbled Over To The Keyboard And wrote
    The Following In The 24hoursupport.helpdesk News Group:

    > I remember when cartoons were fun to watch...tom & jerry, Elmer fud
    > and bugs bunny..lol

    <sniped> only because of length.

    The American people have been given to many freedoms by their
    government, and rely on them to make decisions they should be making
    themselves. Not only has the government of the US gone to hell, but
    so have her people.

    --
    Just West Of Nowhere
    Enjoy Life And Live It To Its Fullest
    http://www.NuBoy-Industries.Com
    5/6/2007 7:18:47 AM CST
    Old Gringo, May 6, 2007
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. OKC Computers

    Old Gringo Guest

    On Or About Sun, 06 May 2007 14:36:59 -0500, Without Any Hesitation
    Or Thinking Twice, Frosty Stumbled Over To The Keyboard And wrote The
    Following In The 24hoursupport.helpdesk News Group:

    > On Sun, 6 May 2007 07:23:26 -0500 in 24hoursupport.helpdesk Old
    > Gringo <>, intended to write something
    > intelligible, but instead wrote :
    >
    >>On Or About 6 May 2007 02:04:59 -0700, Without Any Hesitation Or
    >>Thinking Twice, OKC Computers Stumbled Over To The Keyboard And wrote
    >>The Following In The 24hoursupport.helpdesk News Group:
    >>
    >>> I remember when cartoons were fun to watch...tom & jerry, Elmer fud
    >>> and bugs bunny..lol

    >><sniped> only because of length.
    >>
    >>The American people have been given to many freedoms by their
    >>government, and rely on them to make decisions they should be making
    >>themselves. Not only has the government of the US gone to hell, but
    >>so have her people.

    >
    > Just so we're clear. Are you saying the American people have been
    > 'given /too/ many freedoms by their government'?


    Too many. Yes. Sorry on spelling.
    --
    Just West Of Nowhere
    Enjoy Life And Live It To Its Fullest
    http://www.NuBoy-Industries.Com
    5/6/2007 2:09:58 PM CST
    Old Gringo, May 6, 2007
    #3
  4. OKC Computers

    Frosty Guest

    On Sun, 6 May 2007 07:23:26 -0500 in 24hoursupport.helpdesk Old
    Gringo <>, intended to write something
    intelligible, but instead wrote :

    >On Or About 6 May 2007 02:04:59 -0700, Without Any Hesitation Or
    >Thinking Twice, OKC Computers Stumbled Over To The Keyboard And wrote
    >The Following In The 24hoursupport.helpdesk News Group:
    >
    >> I remember when cartoons were fun to watch...tom & jerry, Elmer fud
    >> and bugs bunny..lol

    ><sniped> only because of length.
    >
    >The American people have been given to many freedoms by their
    >government, and rely on them to make decisions they should be making
    >themselves. Not only has the government of the US gone to hell, but
    >so have her people.


    Just so we're clear. Are you saying the American people have been
    'given /too/ many freedoms by their government'?
    Frosty, May 6, 2007
    #4
  5. OKC Computers

    crest Guest

    I seldom read this NG and very seldom post but I agree with you. As a
    nation we have delegated too many 'freedoms' to people who think it gives
    them the right to do as they please, to force others to comply with insane
    positions and requirements. For instance: It has become politically correct
    to place those who smoke as second class citizens. I do not smoke but to
    cite and fine someone or to even jail a person who lights up near a psycho
    who calls the cops is incredible but it's the law here in Arizona where such
    has already happened. Take seatbelt laws. My habit is to buckle up every
    time without thinking about it. It is a purely personal choice for a
    seatbelt only protects the person wearing it. I believe I should have the
    choice of doing so without being cited and/or going to jail for refusing but
    the law is established and those who are cited for not doing so can
    ultimately be jailed merely because he elected to disregard a personal
    safety device, never endangering the safety of others.

    "Old Gringo" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Or About 6 May 2007 02:04:59 -0700, Without Any Hesitation Or
    > Thinking Twice, OKC Computers Stumbled Over To The Keyboard And wrote
    > The Following In The 24hoursupport.helpdesk News Group:
    >
    >> I remember when cartoons were fun to watch...tom & jerry, Elmer fud
    >> and bugs bunny..lol

    > <sniped> only because of length.
    >
    > The American people have been given to many freedoms by their
    > government, and rely on them to make decisions they should be making
    > themselves. Not only has the government of the US gone to hell, but
    > so have her people.
    >
    > --
    > Just West Of Nowhere
    > Enjoy Life And Live It To Its Fullest
    > http://www.NuBoy-Industries.Com
    > 5/6/2007 7:18:47 AM CST
    crest, May 6, 2007
    #5
  6. OKC Computers

    Old Gringo Guest

    On Or About Sun, 06 May 2007 17:19:59 -0500, Without Any Hesitation
    Or Thinking Twice, Frosty Stumbled Over To The Keyboard And wrote The
    Following In The 24hoursupport.helpdesk News Group:

    > On Sun, 6 May 2007 14:10:38 -0500 in 24hoursupport.helpdesk Old
    > Gringo <>, intended to write something
    > intelligible, but instead wrote :
    >
    >>On Or About Sun, 06 May 2007 14:36:59 -0500, Without Any Hesitation
    >>Or Thinking Twice, Frosty Stumbled Over To The Keyboard And wrote The
    >>Following In The 24hoursupport.helpdesk News Group:
    >>
    >>> On Sun, 6 May 2007 07:23:26 -0500 in 24hoursupport.helpdesk Old
    >>> Gringo <>, intended to write something
    >>> intelligible, but instead wrote :
    >>>
    >>>>On Or About 6 May 2007 02:04:59 -0700, Without Any Hesitation Or
    >>>>Thinking Twice, OKC Computers Stumbled Over To The Keyboard And wrote
    >>>>The Following In The 24hoursupport.helpdesk News Group:
    >>>>
    >>>>> I remember when cartoons were fun to watch...tom & jerry, Elmer fud
    >>>>> and bugs bunny..lol
    >>>><sniped> only because of length.
    >>>>
    >>>>The American people have been given to many freedoms by their
    >>>>government, and rely on them to make decisions they should be making
    >>>>themselves. Not only has the government of the US gone to hell, but
    >>>>so have her people.
    >>>
    >>> Just so we're clear. Are you saying the American people have been
    >>> 'given /too/ many freedoms by their government'?

    >>
    >>Too many. Yes. Sorry on spelling.

    >
    > No problem.
    > Do you honestly believe people get their rights FROM government?


    The freedom of choice is now Wendy's, Burger King, and McDonald's.
    <g> Now so under control, very few realize that.
    --
    Just West Of Nowhere
    Enjoy Life And Live It To Its Fullest
    http://www.NuBoy-Industries.Com
    5/6/2007 4:38:38 PM CST
    Old Gringo, May 6, 2007
    #6
  7. OKC Computers

    Frosty Guest

    On Sun, 6 May 2007 14:10:38 -0500 in 24hoursupport.helpdesk Old
    Gringo <>, intended to write something
    intelligible, but instead wrote :

    >On Or About Sun, 06 May 2007 14:36:59 -0500, Without Any Hesitation
    >Or Thinking Twice, Frosty Stumbled Over To The Keyboard And wrote The
    >Following In The 24hoursupport.helpdesk News Group:
    >
    >> On Sun, 6 May 2007 07:23:26 -0500 in 24hoursupport.helpdesk Old
    >> Gringo <>, intended to write something
    >> intelligible, but instead wrote :
    >>
    >>>On Or About 6 May 2007 02:04:59 -0700, Without Any Hesitation Or
    >>>Thinking Twice, OKC Computers Stumbled Over To The Keyboard And wrote
    >>>The Following In The 24hoursupport.helpdesk News Group:
    >>>
    >>>> I remember when cartoons were fun to watch...tom & jerry, Elmer fud
    >>>> and bugs bunny..lol
    >>><sniped> only because of length.
    >>>
    >>>The American people have been given to many freedoms by their
    >>>government, and rely on them to make decisions they should be making
    >>>themselves. Not only has the government of the US gone to hell, but
    >>>so have her people.

    >>
    >> Just so we're clear. Are you saying the American people have been
    >> 'given /too/ many freedoms by their government'?

    >
    >Too many. Yes. Sorry on spelling.


    No problem.
    Do you honestly believe people get their rights FROM government?
    Frosty, May 6, 2007
    #7
  8. OKC Computers

    Old Gringo Guest

    On Or About Sun, 06 May 2007 19:48:34 -0500, Without Any Hesitation
    Or Thinking Twice, Frosty Stumbled Over To The Keyboard And wrote The
    Following In The 24hoursupport.helpdesk News Group:

    > On Sun, 06 May 2007 21:43:52 GMT in 24hoursupport.helpdesk Old Gringo
    > <>, intended to write something intelligible,
    > but instead wrote :
    >
    >>On Or About Sun, 06 May 2007 17:19:59 -0500, Without Any Hesitation
    >>Or Thinking Twice, Frosty Stumbled Over To The Keyboard And wrote The
    >>Following In The 24hoursupport.helpdesk News Group:
    >>
    >>> On Sun, 6 May 2007 14:10:38 -0500 in 24hoursupport.helpdesk Old
    >>> Gringo <>, intended to write something
    >>> intelligible, but instead wrote :
    >>>
    >>>>On Or About Sun, 06 May 2007 14:36:59 -0500, Without Any Hesitation
    >>>>Or Thinking Twice, Frosty Stumbled Over To The Keyboard And wrote The
    >>>>Following In The 24hoursupport.helpdesk News Group:
    >>>>
    >>>>> On Sun, 6 May 2007 07:23:26 -0500 in 24hoursupport.helpdesk Old
    >>>>> Gringo <>, intended to write something
    >>>>> intelligible, but instead wrote :
    >>>>>
    >>>>>>On Or About 6 May 2007 02:04:59 -0700, Without Any Hesitation Or
    >>>>>>Thinking Twice, OKC Computers Stumbled Over To The Keyboard And wrote
    >>>>>>The Following In The 24hoursupport.helpdesk News Group:
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>> I remember when cartoons were fun to watch...tom & jerry, Elmer fud
    >>>>>>> and bugs bunny..lol
    >>>>>><sniped> only because of length.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>The American people have been given to many freedoms by their
    >>>>>>government, and rely on them to make decisions they should be making
    >>>>>>themselves. Not only has the government of the US gone to hell, but
    >>>>>>so have her people.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Just so we're clear. Are you saying the American people have been
    >>>>> 'given /too/ many freedoms by their government'?
    >>>>
    >>>>Too many. Yes. Sorry on spelling.
    >>>
    >>> No problem.
    >>> Do you honestly believe people get their rights FROM government?

    >>
    >>The freedom of choice is now Wendy's, Burger King, and McDonald's.
    >><g> Now so under control, very few realize that.

    >
    > Be that as it may, you have it backwards as to where rights come from.
    > Government's (are supposed to) get their rights FROM the governed, or
    > at least that was the idea of a group of men we call "founders."
    > As far as I'm concerned, I get my rights from God, and government
    > exists at my whim and fancy.
    > Fat lot of good that would do me sitting in a jail cell in Cuba, but
    > still...


    LOL You are confusing me. What I said and what you think I sad are
    different. <g>
    *"People have been given to many freedoms by their
    government, and rely on them to make decisions they should be making
    themselves. Not only has the government of the US gone to hell, but
    so have her people."*

    --
    Just West Of Nowhere
    Enjoy Life And Live It To Its Fullest
    http://www.NuBoy-Industries.Com
    5/6/2007 6:40:38 PM CST
    Old Gringo, May 7, 2007
    #8
  9. OKC Computers

    Frosty Guest

    On Sun, 06 May 2007 21:43:52 GMT in 24hoursupport.helpdesk Old Gringo
    <>, intended to write something intelligible,
    but instead wrote :

    >On Or About Sun, 06 May 2007 17:19:59 -0500, Without Any Hesitation
    >Or Thinking Twice, Frosty Stumbled Over To The Keyboard And wrote The
    >Following In The 24hoursupport.helpdesk News Group:
    >
    >> On Sun, 6 May 2007 14:10:38 -0500 in 24hoursupport.helpdesk Old
    >> Gringo <>, intended to write something
    >> intelligible, but instead wrote :
    >>
    >>>On Or About Sun, 06 May 2007 14:36:59 -0500, Without Any Hesitation
    >>>Or Thinking Twice, Frosty Stumbled Over To The Keyboard And wrote The
    >>>Following In The 24hoursupport.helpdesk News Group:
    >>>
    >>>> On Sun, 6 May 2007 07:23:26 -0500 in 24hoursupport.helpdesk Old
    >>>> Gringo <>, intended to write something
    >>>> intelligible, but instead wrote :
    >>>>
    >>>>>On Or About 6 May 2007 02:04:59 -0700, Without Any Hesitation Or
    >>>>>Thinking Twice, OKC Computers Stumbled Over To The Keyboard And wrote
    >>>>>The Following In The 24hoursupport.helpdesk News Group:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> I remember when cartoons were fun to watch...tom & jerry, Elmer fud
    >>>>>> and bugs bunny..lol
    >>>>><sniped> only because of length.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>The American people have been given to many freedoms by their
    >>>>>government, and rely on them to make decisions they should be making
    >>>>>themselves. Not only has the government of the US gone to hell, but
    >>>>>so have her people.
    >>>>
    >>>> Just so we're clear. Are you saying the American people have been
    >>>> 'given /too/ many freedoms by their government'?
    >>>
    >>>Too many. Yes. Sorry on spelling.

    >>
    >> No problem.
    >> Do you honestly believe people get their rights FROM government?

    >
    >The freedom of choice is now Wendy's, Burger King, and McDonald's.
    ><g> Now so under control, very few realize that.


    Be that as it may, you have it backwards as to where rights come from.
    Government's (are supposed to) get their rights FROM the governed, or
    at least that was the idea of a group of men we call "founders."
    As far as I'm concerned, I get my rights from God, and government
    exists at my whim and fancy.
    Fat lot of good that would do me sitting in a jail cell in Cuba, but
    still...
    Frosty, May 7, 2007
    #9
  10. OKC Computers

    Aardvark Guest

    On Sun, 06 May 2007 13:51:13 -0700, crest wrote:

    > laws. My habit is to buckle up every time without thinking about it. It
    > is a purely personal choice for a seatbelt only protects the person
    > wearing it. I believe I should have the choice of doing so without being
    > cited and/or going to jail for refusing but the law is established and
    > those who are cited for not doing so can ultimately be jailed merely
    > because he elected to disregard a personal safety device, never
    > endangering the safety of others.
    >


    So if you had a head-on collision and the passenger in the seat behind
    you (who followed your lead and decided not to buckle up) was thrown
    forward and badly injured both you and himself you wouldn't hold it
    against him?

    --
    Registered Linux User 413057.
    Both Mandriva 2007 and Ubuntu 6.06
    You can have it all. My empire of hurt.
    Aardvark, May 7, 2007
    #10
  11. OKC Computers

    Frosty Guest

    On Mon, 07 May 2007 17:13:10 GMT in 24hoursupport.helpdesk Aardvark
    <>, intended to write something intelligible,
    but instead wrote :

    >On Sun, 06 May 2007 13:51:13 -0700, crest wrote:
    >
    >> laws. My habit is to buckle up every time without thinking about it. It
    >> is a purely personal choice for a seatbelt only protects the person
    >> wearing it. I believe I should have the choice of doing so without being
    >> cited and/or going to jail for refusing but the law is established and
    >> those who are cited for not doing so can ultimately be jailed merely
    >> because he elected to disregard a personal safety device, never
    >> endangering the safety of others.
    >>

    >
    >So if you had a head-on collision and the passenger in the seat behind
    >you (who followed your lead and decided not to buckle up) was thrown
    >forward and badly injured both you and himself you wouldn't hold it
    >against him?



    I can't speak for the OP but I would hold it against him & deal with
    it in civil court, NOT criminal court.
    Frosty, May 8, 2007
    #11
  12. OKC Computers

    DemoDisk Guest

    "crest" <> wrote in message
    news:ldr%h.242267$...
    > I seldom read this NG and very seldom post but I agree with you. As a
    > nation we have delegated too many 'freedoms' to people who think it

    gives
    > them the right to do as they please, to force others to comply with

    insane
    > positions and requirements. For instance: It has become politically

    correct
    > to place those who smoke as second class citizens. I do not smoke but

    to
    > cite and fine someone or to even jail a person who lights up near a

    psycho
    > who calls the cops is incredible but it's the law here in Arizona

    where such
    > has already happened. Take seatbelt laws. My habit is to buckle up

    every
    > time without thinking about it. It is a purely personal choice for a
    > seatbelt only protects the person wearing it. I believe I should have

    the
    > choice of doing so without being cited and/or going to jail for

    refusing but
    > the law is established and those who are cited for not doing so can
    > ultimately be jailed merely because he elected to disregard a personal
    > safety device, never endangering the safety of others.



    Follow the money. You repeat the tired old line that the evil
    government infringes on our personal freedoms. If you were an insurer,
    in this case, wouldn't you prefer that everyone be legally required to
    use their seatbelts? And, behold, it is so.

    That was not possible years ago, because the insurers would have had to
    take on the auto industry as well as campaign for reform. That's risky,
    and insurers don't like risk.
    DemoDisk, May 8, 2007
    #12
  13. OKC Computers

    DemoDisk Guest

    "Aardvark" <> wrote...> So if you had a head-on
    collision and the passenger in the seat behind

    > you (who followed your lead and decided not to buckle up) was thrown
    > forward and badly injured both you and himself you wouldn't hold it
    > against him?


    There was a perfect example here just yesterday. A late-model, white
    Mustang swerved into oncoming traffic on Dauphin Is. Pkwy, striking a
    dark-colored, late '80's model Buick head on. Both driver and passenger
    of the sedan were thrown from the car and killed. They were not using
    their seat belts.

    The driver of the Mustang, reportedly speeding, was not seriously
    injured.

    Pretty good real-world argument for at least *some* government
    interference in people's lives.
    DemoDisk, May 8, 2007
    #13
  14. OKC Computers

    Whiskers Guest

    On 2007-05-08, Frosty <> wrote:
    > On Tue, 8 May 2007 01:14:42 -0500 in 24hoursupport.helpdesk
    > "DemoDisk" <>, intended to write something
    > intelligible, but instead wrote :


    [...]

    >>Follow the money. You repeat the tired old line that the evil
    >>government infringes on our personal freedoms. If you were an insurer,
    >>in this case, wouldn't you prefer that everyone be legally required to
    >>use their seatbelts? And, behold, it is so.
    >>
    >>That was not possible years ago, because the insurers would have had to
    >>take on the auto industry as well as campaign for reform. That's risky,
    >>and insurers don't like risk.
    >>

    > .
    > So now that insurers in deep in the pockets of government officials,
    > this is somehow an improvement??
    > Yeah, follow the money. The money is being paid in the form of bribes
    > (with nicer sounding names) to gov't officials and they are passing
    > laws which don't actually protect anyone from the actions of others,
    > but rather protect the insurance companies from inactions by citizens.
    > And these laws have all the force of real laws and eventually can have
    > the effect of putting citizens in prison for a victimless crime.
    >
    > This "tired old line" is what founded the USA and once made her great.
    > Once.


    The only money the insurance companies have, is what they collect in
    premiums from their customers. If compulsory seatbelts save lives and
    reduce injuries (which I'm sure they do), then insurance premiums will be
    lower for everyone. But death and injury on the roads have consequences
    that spread far beyond insurance premiums; what about the loss of
    knowledge and skill available to employers? What about the loss of the
    future financial support that people might have provided for themselves
    and others but having been killed or disabled they no longer can? Then
    there are the effects that cannot be measured in money at all: shock,
    grief, pain, frustration, guilt, lost potentials, etc.

    People do need laws to control some aspects of their behaviour. Imagine
    the road carnage if everyone was free to choose which side of the road to
    drive on and whether or not to take notice of road signs and traffic
    controls. What if there were no medical or skill requirements for being
    allowed to drive? Then apply the same freedom to flying aircraft or
    owning fire-arms or producing food and medicines or occupying land ...

    If your political system is corrupt and not to your liking, then change it.
    That is a different argument from one about the fairness and wisdom of
    particular laws.

    --
    -- ^^^^^^^^^^
    -- Whiskers
    -- ~~~~~~~~~~
    Whiskers, May 8, 2007
    #14
  15. OKC Computers

    Frosty Guest

    On Tue, 8 May 2007 01:24:42 -0500 in 24hoursupport.helpdesk
    "DemoDisk" <>, intended to write something
    intelligible, but instead wrote :

    >
    >"Aardvark" <> wrote...> So if you had a head-on
    >collision and the passenger in the seat behind
    >
    >> you (who followed your lead and decided not to buckle up) was thrown
    >> forward and badly injured both you and himself you wouldn't hold it
    >> against him?

    >
    >There was a perfect example here just yesterday. A late-model, white
    >Mustang swerved into oncoming traffic on Dauphin Is. Pkwy, striking a
    >dark-colored, late '80's model Buick head on. Both driver and passenger
    >of the sedan were thrown from the car and killed. They were not using
    >their seat belts.
    >
    >The driver of the Mustang, reportedly speeding, was not seriously
    >injured.
    >
    >Pretty good real-world argument for at least *some* government
    >interference in people's lives.
    >

    How do you figure?
    The mustang driver CHOSE to wear a belt. The other chose not to: the
    law be damned.
    Frosty, May 8, 2007
    #15
  16. OKC Computers

    Frosty Guest

    On Tue, 8 May 2007 01:14:42 -0500 in 24hoursupport.helpdesk
    "DemoDisk" <>, intended to write something
    intelligible, but instead wrote :

    >
    >"crest" <> wrote in message
    >news:ldr%h.242267$...
    >> I seldom read this NG and very seldom post but I agree with you. As a
    >> nation we have delegated too many 'freedoms' to people who think it

    >gives
    >> them the right to do as they please, to force others to comply with

    >insane
    >> positions and requirements. For instance: It has become politically

    >correct
    >> to place those who smoke as second class citizens. I do not smoke but

    >to
    >> cite and fine someone or to even jail a person who lights up near a

    >psycho
    >> who calls the cops is incredible but it's the law here in Arizona

    >where such
    >> has already happened. Take seatbelt laws. My habit is to buckle up

    >every
    >> time without thinking about it. It is a purely personal choice for a
    >> seatbelt only protects the person wearing it. I believe I should have

    >the
    >> choice of doing so without being cited and/or going to jail for

    >refusing but
    >> the law is established and those who are cited for not doing so can
    >> ultimately be jailed merely because he elected to disregard a personal
    >> safety device, never endangering the safety of others.

    >
    >
    >Follow the money. You repeat the tired old line that the evil
    >government infringes on our personal freedoms. If you were an insurer,
    >in this case, wouldn't you prefer that everyone be legally required to
    >use their seatbelts? And, behold, it is so.
    >
    >That was not possible years ago, because the insurers would have had to
    >take on the auto industry as well as campaign for reform. That's risky,
    >and insurers don't like risk.
    >

    ..
    So now that insurers in deep in the pockets of government officials,
    this is somehow an improvement??
    Yeah, follow the money. The money is being paid in the form of bribes
    (with nicer sounding names) to gov't officials and they are passing
    laws which don't actually protect anyone from the actions of others,
    but rather protect the insurance companies from inactions by citizens.
    And these laws have all the force of real laws and eventually can have
    the effect of putting citizens in prison for a victimless crime.

    This "tired old line" is what founded the USA and once made her great.
    Once.
    Frosty, May 8, 2007
    #16
  17. OKC Computers

    Frosty Guest

    On Tue, 8 May 2007 15:37:25 +0100 in 24hoursupport.helpdesk Whiskers
    <>, intended to write something intelligible,
    but instead wrote :

    >On 2007-05-08, Frosty <> wrote:
    >> On Tue, 8 May 2007 01:14:42 -0500 in 24hoursupport.helpdesk
    >> "DemoDisk" <>, intended to write something
    >> intelligible, but instead wrote :

    >
    >[...]
    >
    >>>Follow the money. You repeat the tired old line that the evil
    >>>government infringes on our personal freedoms. If you were an insurer,
    >>>in this case, wouldn't you prefer that everyone be legally required to
    >>>use their seatbelts? And, behold, it is so.
    >>>
    >>>That was not possible years ago, because the insurers would have had to
    >>>take on the auto industry as well as campaign for reform. That's risky,
    >>>and insurers don't like risk.
    >>>

    >> .
    >> So now that insurers in deep in the pockets of government officials,
    >> this is somehow an improvement??
    >> Yeah, follow the money. The money is being paid in the form of bribes
    >> (with nicer sounding names) to gov't officials and they are passing
    >> laws which don't actually protect anyone from the actions of others,
    >> but rather protect the insurance companies from inactions by citizens.
    >> And these laws have all the force of real laws and eventually can have
    >> the effect of putting citizens in prison for a victimless crime.
    >>
    >> This "tired old line" is what founded the USA and once made her great.
    >> Once.

    >
    >The only money the insurance companies have, is what they collect in
    >premiums from their customers. If compulsory seatbelts save lives and
    >reduce injuries (which I'm sure they do), then insurance premiums will be
    >lower for everyone. But death and injury on the roads have consequences
    >that spread far beyond insurance premiums; what about the loss of
    >knowledge and skill available to employers? What about the loss of the
    >future financial support that people might have provided for themselves
    >and others but having been killed or disabled they no longer can? Then
    >there are the effects that cannot be measured in money at all: shock,
    >grief, pain, frustration, guilt, lost potentials, etc.
    >
    >People do need laws to control some aspects of their behaviour. Imagine
    >the road carnage if everyone was free to choose which side of the road to
    >drive on and whether or not to take notice of road signs and traffic
    >controls. What if there were no medical or skill requirements for being
    >allowed to drive? Then apply the same freedom to flying aircraft or
    >owning fire-arms or producing food and medicines or occupying land ...
    >
    >If your political system is corrupt and not to your liking, then change it.
    >That is a different argument from one about the fairness and wisdom of
    >particular laws.


    I like you, but you're wrong.
    And you unfortunately hold the popular opinion.
    It's no wonder our people allow, nay, BEG for a strong government to
    rule over them. Mores the pity.
    Frosty, May 9, 2007
    #17
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