HP sued for deceiving ink printer users (San Jose Mercury 19.Feb.05)

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by ThomasH, Feb 23, 2005.

  1. ThomasH

    ThomasH Guest

    A class action law suit was filed in Santa Clara County superior
    court. It alleges that HP's 'smart printer' technology deceives
    customers to buy new ink cartridges before the ink has run out.
    The software renders cartridge unusable through the use of built-in
    expiration date.

    So far the allegation, neither party was willing to comment on
    this litigation. The class action is on behalf of users who bought
    HP inkjet after February 2001.


    However, in this article San Jose Mercury quotes an ink printer
    test published by PC World in March 2004 edition. PCWorld found
    out that many printers stopped to print before the ink runs out.
    For example, Epson Stylus C84 stopped with 20% of the ink left,
    and Canon i850 stopped with 10% of the ink left.

    If all this is truth, they just found the best possible source
    of income...

    Thomas
     
    ThomasH, Feb 23, 2005
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. ThomasH wrote:
    > A class action law suit was filed in Santa Clara County superior
    > court. It alleges that HP's 'smart printer' technology deceives
    > customers to buy new ink cartridges before the ink has run out.
    > The software renders cartridge unusable through the use of built-in
    > expiration date.
    >
    > So far the allegation, neither party was willing to comment on
    > this litigation. The class action is on behalf of users who bought
    > HP inkjet after February 2001.
    >
    >
    > However, in this article San Jose Mercury quotes an ink printer
    > test published by PC World in March 2004 edition. PCWorld found
    > out that many printers stopped to print before the ink runs out.
    > For example, Epson Stylus C84 stopped with 20% of the ink left,
    > and Canon i850 stopped with 10% of the ink left.
    >
    > If all this is truth, they just found the best possible source
    > of income...
    >
    > Thomas


    I would think the issue is how did the represent what they were selling.

    For example if they indicated that it would use all the ink in the
    cartridge, then they have a problem

    If they indicated that each ink cart would last X number of sheets or
    square inches or would provide X ml of ink and it shut of after providing
    that amount while still having some inside, then the customer's complaint is
    not valid.

    --
    Joseph Meehan

    26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math
     
    Joseph Meehan, Feb 23, 2005
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. ThomasH

    Ron Guest

    I believe most of us assume that virtually all the ink in the cartridge
    is there to be used. This really bothers me because I only use my HP
    printer for final prints, thereby raising the question in my mind if I
    am being ripped off. I have looked at my documentation and can find no
    evidence of what to expect. Nor does my printer, purchased two years
    ago, give me any heads up on remaining ink.

    This mess is one reason I like Canon printers with individual
    transparent easily refillable cartridges. What you see is what you
    get.

    There's no secret that inflated ink prices are what drives HP's market
    share. Nor is there any secret that were this to change HP would see
    its profits and prospects head in the direction not only of its low
    margin pc business (and deteriorating server one), but Dell. And guess
    what. This will happen.
     
    Ron, Feb 23, 2005
    #3
  4. ThomasH

    rafe bustin Guest

    On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 00:18:00 -0800, ThomasH <> wrote:

    >
    >A class action law suit was filed in Santa Clara County superior
    >court. It alleges that HP's 'smart printer' technology deceives
    >customers to buy new ink cartridges before the ink has run out.
    >The software renders cartridge unusable through the use of built-in
    >expiration date.
    >
    >So far the allegation, neither party was willing to comment on
    >this litigation. The class action is on behalf of users who bought
    >HP inkjet after February 2001.
    >
    >
    >However, in this article San Jose Mercury quotes an ink printer
    >test published by PC World in March 2004 edition. PCWorld found
    >out that many printers stopped to print before the ink runs out.
    >For example, Epson Stylus C84 stopped with 20% of the ink left,
    >and Canon i850 stopped with 10% of the ink left.
    >
    >If all this is truth, they just found the best possible source
    >of income...



    I can tell you for a fact that HP is not
    alone in using such technology.


    rafe b.
    http://www.terrapinphoto.com
     
    rafe bustin, Feb 23, 2005
    #4
  5. Joseph Meehan commented courteously ...

    > I would think the issue is how did the represent what
    >they were selling.
    >
    > For example if they indicated that it would use all the
    > ink in the cartridge, then they have a problem


    Didn't read the article or any info on the plaintiff's
    alleged complaints, but I don't know of a printer
    manufacturer who promises to drain every last drop out of
    a cartride.

    Most start warning you as the cartridge empties,
    supposedly to "help" you by preventing you from making a
    bad color print. I expect that manufacturers "push the
    envelope" on this, since they do make money from new
    cartridges, maybe more than on printes, as Gilette found
    selling razor blades and giving the razors away for free.

    > If they indicated that each ink cart would last X number
    > of sheets or square inches or would provide X ml of ink
    > and it shut of after providing that amount while still
    > having some inside, then the customer's complaint is not
    > valid.


    Again, I've not seen a manufacturer dogmatically state a
    maximum number of sheets/square inches. Rather, what I
    normally see is a quoted *expected* number of sheets for
    text and a smaller number for graphics (where they talk
    about percent coverage).

    With thousands of printers on the market, I can hardly
    call myself an "expert witness", but whatever HP is or is
    not doing, it isn't even good business practice to shut
    off the printer (perhaps in the middle of the night when a
    user can't go to the store), but I suppose it's possible.

    What damages is the class action suit asking for, other
    than to recover actual out-of-pocket expense for unused
    ink, which would be small potatoes?

    --
    ATM, aka Jerry
     
    All Things Mopar, Feb 23, 2005
    #5
  6. I have a lexmark z605, which cartridges also cost an arm and a leg,and I
    bought refills.It costs only 15 euro and has 2 20 ml syringes, also 4
    refills.It has even gloves!It's made in Korea,BTW.

    --
    Tzortzakakis Dimitri?s
    major in electrical engineering, freelance electrician
    FH von Iraklion-Kreta, freiberuflicher Elektriker
    dimtzort AT otenet DOT gr
    ? "ThomasH" <> ?????? ??? ??????
    news:...
    >
    > A class action law suit was filed in Santa Clara County superior
    > court. It alleges that HP's 'smart printer' technology deceives
    > customers to buy new ink cartridges before the ink has run out.
    > The software renders cartridge unusable through the use of built-in
    > expiration date.
    >
    > So far the allegation, neither party was willing to comment on
    > this litigation. The class action is on behalf of users who bought
    > HP inkjet after February 2001.
    >
    >
    > However, in this article San Jose Mercury quotes an ink printer
    > test published by PC World in March 2004 edition. PCWorld found
    > out that many printers stopped to print before the ink runs out.
    > For example, Epson Stylus C84 stopped with 20% of the ink left,
    > and Canon i850 stopped with 10% of the ink left.
    >
    > If all this is truth, they just found the best possible source
    > of income...
    >
    > Thomas
     
    Dimitrios Tzortzakakis, Feb 23, 2005
    #6
  7. Ron wrote:
    > I believe most of us assume that virtually all the ink in the
    > cartridge is there to be used.


    However what is your expectation of the number of prints each cartridge
    will produce? I believe, that while you may assume it will use all the ink,
    what you really are looking at is the number of prints per cartridge.

    For all I know it is not practical from an engineering point of view to
    totally empty the cartridge. Maybe the delivery will become inconsistent or
    maybe they can not measure accurately, so they provide more ink that the
    cartridge is designed to deliver to assure a consistent result.

    There is nothing the consumer hates more than inconsistent results. If
    you get 100 prints on one cartridge and then only get 95 on the next
    printing the exact same prints, you are going to be mad. I have often
    visited manufacturing facilities. The quality control lines of the better
    products often reject products that we would normally consider inferior like
    not enough beef in the vegetable soup, but they also reject the cans with
    too much beef. Beer lines reject bottles that are under-filled but they
    also reject over-filled bottles.

    > This really bothers me because I only
    > use my HP printer for final prints, thereby raising the question in
    > my mind if I am being ripped off. I have looked at my documentation
    > and can find no evidence of what to expect. Nor does my printer,
    > purchased two years ago, give me any heads up on remaining ink.
    >
    > This mess is one reason I like Canon printers with individual
    > transparent easily refillable cartridges. What you see is what you
    > get.
    >
    > There's no secret that inflated ink prices are what drives HP's market
    > share. Nor is there any secret that were this to change HP would see
    > its profits and prospects head in the direction not only of its low
    > margin pc business (and deteriorating server one), but Dell. And
    > guess what. This will happen.


    --
    Joseph Meehan

    26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math
     
    Joseph Meehan, Feb 23, 2005
    #7
  8. ThomasH

    bob Guest

    Joseph Meehan wrote:

    > I would think the issue is how did the represent what they were selling.
    >
    > For example if they indicated that it would use all the ink in the
    > cartridge, then they have a problem



    The basis of the complaint seems to be that they did not disclose the
    fact that the cartridges would cease functioning after a specific date,
    regardless of how much ink was left in them.

    Bob
     
    bob, Feb 23, 2005
    #8
  9. ThomasH

    Ron Hunter Guest

    ThomasH wrote:
    > A class action law suit was filed in Santa Clara County superior
    > court. It alleges that HP's 'smart printer' technology deceives
    > customers to buy new ink cartridges before the ink has run out.
    > The software renders cartridge unusable through the use of built-in
    > expiration date.
    >
    > So far the allegation, neither party was willing to comment on
    > this litigation. The class action is on behalf of users who bought
    > HP inkjet after February 2001.
    >
    >
    > However, in this article San Jose Mercury quotes an ink printer
    > test published by PC World in March 2004 edition. PCWorld found
    > out that many printers stopped to print before the ink runs out.
    > For example, Epson Stylus C84 stopped with 20% of the ink left,
    > and Canon i850 stopped with 10% of the ink left.
    >
    > If all this is truth, they just found the best possible source
    > of income...
    >
    > Thomas

    I have had 5 different HP inkjet printers, and NONE of them ever stopped
    printing when the ink ran out. The ones I currently have in use warn
    you that you may be running out of ink, but they do NOT stop printing,
    even when the ink runs OUT. I suspect this is another of those totally
    specious lawsuits based on nothing but desire to get into the pockets of
    major companies who would rather pay than be tied up in court.


    --
    Ron Hunter
     
    Ron Hunter, Feb 23, 2005
    #9
  10. ThomasH

    C J Campbell Guest

    "ThomasH" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    > If all this is truth, they just found the best possible source
    > of income...
    >
    > Thomas


    If you are talking about trial lawyers, maybe. The lawyers will get paid
    millions of dollars. The consumers they are supposedly protecting will get a
    coupon for ten bucks off on an HP printer.
     
    C J Campbell, Feb 23, 2005
    #10
  11. ThomasH

    Bill Hilton Guest

    >However, in this article San Jose Mercury quotes an ink printer
    >test published by PC World in March 2004 edition. PCWorld found
    >out that many printers stopped to print before the ink runs out.


    Once with an Epson printer I tried an experiment, printing as many
    sheets as I could after the "low ink warning", until the photo was
    obviously off-color, indicating one of the inks had indeed ran totally
    dry. I got another 10 or so photos, IIRC. *But* when I put a new cart
    in there was the mother of all air bubbles between the ink in the cart
    and the printer head and it took maybe a dozen cleaning cycles and 30
    minutes of futzing around to finally get the ink back to the head.
    Last time I tried that experiment.

    So I think the reason there's still some unused ink is to avoid getting
    air pockets in the line. Anyone bothered by this should switch to the
    CIS systems. What's important is the cost per sheet, not whether or
    not there's some ink left in the tank when the warning light comes on,
    I feel.
     
    Bill Hilton, Feb 23, 2005
    #11
  12. ThomasH

    SteveB Guest

    Strange, all the HP printers I've used keep going until the ink runs out and
    any warnings of low ink can be ignored.


    "ThomasH" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    > A class action law suit was filed in Santa Clara County superior
    > court. It alleges that HP's 'smart printer' technology deceives
    > customers to buy new ink cartridges before the ink has run out.
    > The software renders cartridge unusable through the use of built-in
    > expiration date.
    >
    > So far the allegation, neither party was willing to comment on
    > this litigation. The class action is on behalf of users who bought
    > HP inkjet after February 2001.
    >
    >
    > However, in this article San Jose Mercury quotes an ink printer
    > test published by PC World in March 2004 edition. PCWorld found
    > out that many printers stopped to print before the ink runs out.
    > For example, Epson Stylus C84 stopped with 20% of the ink left,
    > and Canon i850 stopped with 10% of the ink left.
    >
    > If all this is truth, they just found the best possible source
    > of income...
    >
    > Thomas
     
    SteveB, Feb 23, 2005
    #12
  13. ThomasH

    rafeb Guest

    Bill Hilton wrote:

    >>However, in this article San Jose Mercury quotes an ink printer
    >>test published by PC World in March 2004 edition. PCWorld found
    >>out that many printers stopped to print before the ink runs out.

    >
    >
    > Once with an Epson printer I tried an experiment, printing as many
    > sheets as I could after the "low ink warning", until the photo was
    > obviously off-color, indicating one of the inks had indeed ran totally
    > dry. I got another 10 or so photos, IIRC. *But* when I put a new cart
    > in there was the mother of all air bubbles between the ink in the cart
    > and the printer head and it took maybe a dozen cleaning cycles and 30
    > minutes of futzing around to finally get the ink back to the head.
    > Last time I tried that experiment.



    Same exact experience over here. I suspect
    Epson's design only allows for or expects
    about 70% "efficiency" out of the small carts.

    Which is infuriating when you consider the
    cost per milliliter of most inks.


    > So I think the reason there's still some unused ink is to avoid getting
    > air pockets in the line. Anyone bothered by this should switch to the
    > CIS systems. What's important is the cost per sheet, not whether or
    > not there's some ink left in the tank when the warning light comes on,
    > I feel.



    Or stick with the "pro" printers that use
    large and stationary carts (which almost
    amounts to the same thing.) This was my
    main reason for choosing the HP Designjet
    as my "desktop" printer.


    rafe b.
    http://www.terrapinphoto.com
     
    rafeb, Feb 23, 2005
    #13
  14. The mechanism in the HP is somewhat different form the otehrs you
    mention. Most permanent or semi-permanent inkjet printers leave some
    ink in the cartridge when it reads empty to prevent either head damage
    (in the case of the Canon, or air locks and head drying out internally
    for the Epson.

    However, some HP printers have a expiration date programmed into them,
    so the printer simply stops when tat date is reached. It is apparently
    shown on the box, and I believe HP will exchange cartridges if you have
    new ones that are expired. Their claim is that their inks become
    unstable in some manner after a certain date and can clog or damage the
    printer in some manner.

    Art

    ThomasH wrote:

    > A class action law suit was filed in Santa Clara County superior
    > court. It alleges that HP's 'smart printer' technology deceives
    > customers to buy new ink cartridges before the ink has run out.
    > The software renders cartridge unusable through the use of built-in
    > expiration date.
    >
    > So far the allegation, neither party was willing to comment on
    > this litigation. The class action is on behalf of users who bought
    > HP inkjet after February 2001.
    >
    >
    > However, in this article San Jose Mercury quotes an ink printer
    > test published by PC World in March 2004 edition. PCWorld found
    > out that many printers stopped to print before the ink runs out.
    > For example, Epson Stylus C84 stopped with 20% of the ink left,
    > and Canon i850 stopped with 10% of the ink left.
    >
    > If all this is truth, they just found the best possible source
    > of income...
    >
    > Thomas
     
    Arthur Entlich, Feb 23, 2005
    #14
  15. rafeb wrote:
    > Bill Hilton wrote:
    >
    >>> However, in this article San Jose Mercury quotes an ink printer
    >>> test published by PC World in March 2004 edition. PCWorld found
    >>> out that many printers stopped to print before the ink runs out.

    >>
    >>
    >> Once with an Epson printer I tried an experiment, printing as many
    >> sheets as I could after the "low ink warning", until the photo was
    >> obviously off-color, indicating one of the inks had indeed ran
    >> totally dry. I got another 10 or so photos, IIRC. *But* when I put
    >> a new cart in there was the mother of all air bubbles between the
    >> ink in the cart and the printer head and it took maybe a dozen
    >> cleaning cycles and 30 minutes of futzing around to finally get the
    >> ink back to the head. Last time I tried that experiment.

    >
    >
    > Same exact experience over here. I suspect
    > Epson's design only allows for or expects
    > about 70% "efficiency" out of the small carts.
    >
    > Which is infuriating when you consider the
    > cost per milliliter of most inks.


    Your cost anyway. I suspect the cost to HP is much much less.

    >
    >
    >> So I think the reason there's still some unused ink is to avoid
    >> getting air pockets in the line. Anyone bothered by this should
    >> switch to the CIS systems. What's important is the cost per sheet,
    >> not whether or not there's some ink left in the tank when the
    >> warning light comes on, I feel.

    >
    >
    > Or stick with the "pro" printers that use
    > large and stationary carts (which almost
    > amounts to the same thing.) This was my
    > main reason for choosing the HP Designjet
    > as my "desktop" printer.
    >
    >
    > rafe b.
    > http://www.terrapinphoto.com


    --
    Joseph Meehan

    26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math
     
    Joseph Meehan, Feb 23, 2005
    #15
  16. I'm glad to see that something is being done.

    For those that may have missed it being discussed here in
    rec.photo.digital I kept the following for future reference of how to
    reset expiration dates.

    My HP932c [purchased Nov.00] is not affected but my next printer would
    be.

    Google is your friend:

    http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=HP resetter&meta=

    .... try search strings like "Epson resetter" & "smart chip ink
    cartridges" <no quotes> to find more.

    Hap

    ---clip---

    On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 18:11:10 GMT, "Christopher Muto"
    <> wrote:

    why? the manufacturer would probably tell you that the dates are to
    ensure a good experiance with their product through the use of fresh
    cartridges. i would tell you that the dates are so that they can sell
    you more cartridges. i think all the majors have implemented some sort
    of scheme like this... the cartridges have a chip built into them that
    can be reset if it is considered 'expired' or if you wanted to remove
    and refill it. search the web for "hp resetter" (or for epson, "epson
    reset tool") and you will find several... a manual way of reseting the
    cartridge/printer to accept the expired or previously used cartridge
    is listed at the link below. there are three methods and only one may
    work on your particular model, but try them all with particular
    attention to the third method suggested which is the easiest,
    cheapest, and simplest, but may not apply to your model printer.
    it may be more economical to purchase a non-hp cartridge than the
    resetter tool and ink refills for a person that does not print very
    often.

    http://www.inktec-uk.co.uk/57_58_reset.htm


    "Agent Orange" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Q: What is the significance of the date printed on the HP ink PACKAGE?
    > SINGAPORE MAY 2003
    >
    > > Relevant Hewlett Packard ink cartridge dates are:
    > > - The date HP manufactured the ink cartridge
    > > - The date HP prints on the ink cartridge
    > > - The date HP prints on the ink cartridge package consumer cardboard box
    > > - The date HP printer cartridges are installed in the printer
    > > - The date HP first stops printing (due to false "low ink" messages)
    > > - The date HP usually stops printing (due to false "expiration"

    messages)
    > > - The date HP actually stops printing (due to true expiration messages)

    >
    > Since we now know full well HP inserts up to three false expiration
    > dates before the final (true) expiration date, I ask this question:
    >
    > Q: What is the MEANING of this date printed on the HP package box?
    > SINGAPORE MAY 2003
    >
    > Note 1: Box-print-date is NOT the date the cardboard box was
    > actually printed (as a quick look at packages on the
    > store shelves shows most, if not all, to be in the future).
    >
    > Note 2: Box-print-date also can not be the Cartridge_print_date as
    > the date printed on the HP ink cartridge is easily proven
    > to be different simply by opening a box.
    >
    > Given that actual re-fill tests proved (in ascending order):
    > a) derived_true_manufacture_date
    > = 2001/12/10 (cartridge printed date - 2.5 years)
    > b) date_cartridge_was_purchased
    > === 2002/01/12 (date cartridge was purchased)
    > c) date_cartridge_was_installed
    > === 2002/01/14 (date cartridge was placed in service)
    > d) date_hp_prints_on_the_ink_box
    > = MAY 2003 (What is the significance of this date?)
    > e) 1st_false_hp_empty_date
    > ~= 2004/05/14 (approx. 800 pages of ink printing)
    > f) 2nd_false_hp_expiration_date
    > = 2004/06/10 (date actually printed on ink tank)
    > g) 3rd_false_hp_expiration_date
    > = 2004/07/14 (2.5 years of contiguous printer service)
    > h) true_hp_ink_expiration_date
    > = 2006/06/10 (cartridge printed date + 2 years)
    >
    > Q: What is the significance of the date HP prints on the
    > outside PACKAGE of the cardboard box containing ink tanks?
    > MAY 2003 (What is the significance of this date?)


    On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 00:18:00 -0800, ThomasH <> wrote:

    >A class action law suit was filed in Santa Clara County superior
    >court. It alleges that HP's 'smart printer' technology deceives
    >customers to buy new ink cartridges before the ink has run out.
    >The software renders cartridge unusable through the use of built-in
    >expiration date.
    >
    >So far the allegation, neither party was willing to comment on
    >this litigation. The class action is on behalf of users who bought
    >HP inkjet after February 2001.
    >
    >
    >However, in this article San Jose Mercury quotes an ink printer
    >test published by PC World in March 2004 edition. PCWorld found
    >out that many printers stopped to print before the ink runs out.
    >For example, Epson Stylus C84 stopped with 20% of the ink left,
    >and Canon i850 stopped with 10% of the ink left.
    >
    >If all this is truth, they just found the best possible source
    >of income...
    >
    >Thomas
     
    Hap Shaughnessy, Feb 23, 2005
    #16
  17. ThomasH

    CWatters Guest

    "ThomasH" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    > A class action law suit was filed in Santa Clara County superior
    > court. It alleges that HP's 'smart printer' technology deceives
    > customers to buy new ink cartridges before the ink has run out.


    The HP carts I use have a marked capacity on them - 42 mL. This capacity is
    also marked on the packaging.

    It would be interesting to know if the system flags then as empty _before_
    42mL of ink has been used? If it does then that sure sounds like there is a
    case to answer.

    If it prints all 42mL before flagging empty then there is no case to answer.
    Any ink left in the cart is free.
     
    CWatters, Feb 23, 2005
    #17
  18. ThomasH

    CWatters Guest

    CWatters, Feb 23, 2005
    #18
  19. ThomasH

    CWatters Guest


    > Same exact experience over here. I suspect
    > Epson's design only allows for or expects
    > about 70% "efficiency" out of the small carts.


    Most of the adverts for HP carts (eg @ Amazon) say things like "30mL useable
    ink". Thats a very clear statement of what the cart can deliver.

    As you say the issue is not how much ink is left in the cart but how much
    you can get out (eg compared to the stated or advertised value). If the
    packaging or advert says "30mL useable ink" but shuts off before that amount
    has been used then it sounds like there is a case to answer. As long as 30mL
    is useable it doesn't matter how much is left in the cart.
     
    CWatters, Feb 23, 2005
    #19
  20. ThomasH

    bob Guest

    Ron Hunter wrote:
    >
    > I have had 5 different HP inkjet printers, and NONE of them ever stopped
    > printing when the ink ran out.


    The Deskjet and Designjet series inkjet printers will stop when they are
    out. In fact the Designjet 750 will refuse to print if the some of the
    nozzels are clogged. It will stop in the middle of a print and tell you
    to service the cartridge.

    > The ones I currently have in use warn
    > you that you may be running out of ink, but they do NOT stop printing,
    > even when the ink runs OUT. I suspect this is another of those totally
    > specious lawsuits based on nothing but desire to get into the pockets of
    > major companies who would rather pay than be tied up in court.


    This is an issue of cartridges that have time stamps in them and
    printers that refuse to use them after they have expired, regardless of
    ink content.

    I read somewhere that HPs stand is the ink might go bad and they don't
    want to risk consumers with bad prints due to expired ink.

    Bob
     
    bob, Feb 23, 2005
    #20
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