How does it know its VOIP - or does it

Discussion in 'UK VOIP' started by Dave Saville, Sep 3, 2007.

  1. Dave Saville

    Dave Saville Guest

    If I dial the PSTN number assigned to a VOIP phone from another VOIP
    phone does it know it is IP to IP or would it treat it as a land line
    call? Or do you need to set up the call differently?

    --
    Regards
    Dave Saville

    NB Remove -nospam for good email address
     
    Dave Saville, Sep 3, 2007
    #1
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  2. Dave Saville

    Tim Guest

    Dave Saville wrote:
    > If I dial the PSTN number assigned to a VOIP phone from another VOIP
    > phone does it know it is IP to IP or would it treat it as a land line
    > call? Or do you need to set up the call differently?


    In most cases, the call will get treated like a landline call. Into
    your SIP service provider and back out again.

    To me, it doesn't really matter how the call gets there. Whether you
    get charged for the call, is a different matter.

    Within the same SIP service provider, it is dependant on their policy.
    For example, if you dial 01484 840048 from Gradwell you won't get
    charged. Gradwell don't charge for internal calls.


    There is a system called enum, which isn't officially active in the UK.
    This allows you to lookup the SIP address of a phone number, therefore
    always routing the call over SIP. Until various people pull their
    fingers out for the official service, then you can use enum by
    registering on e164.org




    Tim
     
    Tim, Sep 3, 2007
    #2
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  3. Dave Saville

    Ivor Jones Guest

    "Tim" <> wrote in message
    news:46dbcb77$0$646$
    : : Dave Saville wrote:
    : : : If I dial the PSTN number assigned to a VOIP phone
    : : : from another VOIP phone does it know it is IP to IP
    : : : or would it treat it as a land line call? Or do you
    : : : need to set up the call differently?
    : :
    : : In most cases, the call will get treated like a
    : : landline call. Into your SIP service provider and back
    : : out again.
    : :
    : : To me, it doesn't really matter how the call gets
    : : there. Whether you get charged for the call, is a
    : : different matter.
    : :
    : : Within the same SIP service provider, it is dependant
    : : on their policy. For example, if you dial 01484 840048
    : : from Gradwell you won't get charged. Gradwell don't
    : : charge for internal calls.

    You usually have to dial a prefix code. For example from Sipgate to
    Gradwell you dial 000393 then the Gradwell SIP number. The other way
    around is a little more complex, you dial **777 then the full PSTN number
    in international form but dropping the 00 i.e. **777442070431320 (that's
    the number of my speaking clock, feel free to try it..!)

    : : There is a system called enum, which isn't officially
    : : active in the UK. This allows you to lookup the SIP
    : : address of a phone number, therefore always routing the
    : : call over SIP. Until various people pull their
    : : fingers out for the official service, then you can use
    : : enum by registering on e164.org

    That's another alternative but I've never managed to get it to work
    properly, maybe it's me.

    Don't forget also that some VoIP providers block access to SIP calls from
    other providers.


    Ivor
     
    Ivor Jones, Sep 3, 2007
    #3
  4. Dave Saville

    Roger Mills Guest

    In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
    Tim <> wrote:

    > Dave Saville wrote:
    >> If I dial the PSTN number assigned to a VOIP phone from another VOIP
    >> phone does it know it is IP to IP or would it treat it as a land line
    >> call? Or do you need to set up the call differently?

    >
    > In most cases, the call will get treated like a landline call. Into
    > your SIP service provider and back out again.
    >
    > To me, it doesn't really matter how the call gets there. Whether you
    > get charged for the call, is a different matter.
    >
    > Within the same SIP service provider, it is dependant on their policy.
    > For example, if you dial 01484 840048 from Gradwell you won't get
    > charged. Gradwell don't charge for internal calls.
    >
    >
    > There is a system called enum, which isn't officially active in the
    > UK. This allows you to lookup the SIP address of a phone number,
    > therefore always routing the call over SIP. Until various people
    > pull their fingers out for the official service, then you can use
    > enum by registering on e164.org
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Tim


    What does a SIP address look like? I've got a couple of SIP 6-digit 'user
    names' allocated by voip.co.uk - but I assume that they are specific to that
    supplier, and not unique in the world?

    They seem to be linked to my SIP phone numbers with a string: {SIP#}@{My WAN
    IP address}:{Port#}

    Is some/all of that my external SIP address?
    --
    Cheers,
    Roger
    ______
    Email address maintained for newsgroup use only, and not regularly
    monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks.
    PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP!
     
    Roger Mills, Sep 3, 2007
    #4
  5. Dave Saville

    Andy Burns Guest

    On 03/09/2007 09:53, Tim wrote:

    > There is a system called enum,


    [snip]

    > Until various people pull their fingers out


    You might as well wait until turkeys vote for christmas :-(
     
    Andy Burns, Sep 3, 2007
    #5
  6. Dave Saville

    Tim Guest

    Roger Mills wrote:
    > What does a SIP address look like? I've got a couple of SIP 6-digit 'user
    > names' allocated by voip.co.uk - but I assume that they are specific to that
    > supplier, and not unique in the world?


    like




    Tim
     
    Tim, Sep 3, 2007
    #6
  7. Dave Saville

    Tim Guest

    Andy Burns wrote:
    > You might as well wait until turkeys vote for christmas :-(


    I know that Nominet have tendered to run the enum service.]

    In the mean time, e164.org works fine.

    Tim
     
    Tim, Sep 3, 2007
    #7
  8. Tim wrote:
    > Andy Burns wrote:
    >> You might as well wait until turkeys vote for christmas :-(

    >
    > I know that Nominet have tendered to run the enum service.]
    >

    I thought they were losing the fight. Wasn't there a closed beta test
    where nominet got a number range and so did 2 other companies (finished
    in 2004 iirc). I think the whole thing is silly, it's as if there's an
    obsession with the need to have as many people trying to make money from
    it as possible.

    > In the mean time, e164.org works fine.
    >
    > Tim
     
    Thomas Kenyon, Sep 3, 2007
    #8
  9. Dave Saville

    Andy Burns Guest

    On 03/09/2007 13:10, Tim wrote:

    > In the mean time, e164.org works fine.


    Interesting ... I've just tried a lookup with dig, if +44 116 is a
    non-existand domain, does that just mean nobody in Leicester has
    registered a number with E164.org?

    > ; <<>> DiG 9.4.1-P1 <<>> @hemlock.e164.org. -t NAPTR 6.1.1.4.4.e164.org.
    > ; (1 server found)
    > ;; global options: printcmd
    > ;; Got answer:
    > ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NXDOMAIN, id: 65496
    > ;; flags: qr aa rd; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 0, AUTHORITY: 1, ADDITIONAL: 0
    > ;; WARNING: recursion requested but not available
    >
    > ;; QUESTION SECTION:
    > ;6.1.1.4.4.e164.org. IN NAPTR
    >
    > ;; AUTHORITY SECTION:
    > e164.org. 600 IN SOA hemlock.e164.org. support.e164.org. 1188830811 60 30 604800 86400
    >
    > ;; Query time: 202 msec
    > ;; SERVER: 204.50.80.13#53(204.50.80.13)
    > ;; WHEN: Mon Sep 3 16:01:14 2007
    > ;; MSG SIZE rcvd: 96


    Is registration normally done by the number block owner (i.e VOIP
    gateway owner) or by the individual number owner, in which case how do
    you establish "ownership" of the relevant zone underneath
    6.1.1.4.4.e164.org?
     
    Andy Burns, Sep 3, 2007
    #9
  10. Dave Saville

    Roger Mills Guest

    In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
    Tim <> wrote:

    > Roger Mills wrote:
    >> What does a SIP address look like? I've got a couple of SIP 6-digit
    >> 'user names' allocated by voip.co.uk - but I assume that they are
    >> specific to that supplier, and not unique in the world?

    >
    > like
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > Tim


    So what distinguishes that from an email address?
    --
    Cheers,
    Roger
    ______
    Email address maintained for newsgroup use only, and not regularly
    monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks.
    PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP!
     
    Roger Mills, Sep 3, 2007
    #10
  11. Dave Saville

    Andy Burns Guest

    On 03/09/2007 17:03, Roger Mills wrote:

    > So what distinguishes that from an email address?


    You'd need to know it was a SIP address, if you want it to be obvious in
    either case you'd use prefixes like

    mailto:

    or

    sip:

    not everything with an @ in it is an email address :)
     
    Andy Burns, Sep 3, 2007
    #11
  12. Dave Saville

    Andy Burns Guest

    On 03/09/2007 16:06, Andy Burns wrote:

    > Is registration normally done by the number block owner (i.e VOIP
    > gateway owner) or by the individual number owner


    OK, to answer my own question, I see you can register individual phone
    numbers, the registration process gives you a PIN on screen, then places
    a phone call to the PSTN number you provide, you answer and then respond
    with the PIN via DTMF, I'll have to play ...
     
    Andy Burns, Sep 3, 2007
    #12
  13. Dave Saville

    Tim Guest

    Roger Mills wrote:
    > So what distinguishes that from an email address?


    Nothing really.

    Well only that a SIP client will talk to a SIP server and an email
    client will talk to an email server.

    In the network they are treated completely differently.

    Tim
     
    Tim, Sep 3, 2007
    #13
  14. Dave Saville

    Tim Guest

    Andy Burns wrote:
    > On 03/09/2007 13:10, Tim wrote:
    >
    >> In the mean time, e164.org works fine.

    >
    > Interesting ... I've just tried a lookup with dig, if +44 116 is a
    > non-existand domain, does that just mean nobody in Leicester has
    > registered a number with E164.org?


    You need to lookup a full number.
    tim@fred:/tmp$ dig -t NAPTR 8.4.0.0.4.8.4.8.4.1.4.4.e164.org

    ; <<>> DiG 9.3.4 <<>> -t NAPTR 8.4.0.0.4.8.4.8.4.1.4.4.e164.org
    ;; global options: printcmd
    ;; Got answer:
    ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 43519
    ;; flags: qr rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 1, AUTHORITY: 4, ADDITIONAL: 0

    ;; QUESTION SECTION:
    ;8.4.0.0.4.8.4.8.4.1.4.4.e164.org. IN NAPTR

    ;; ANSWER SECTION:
    8.4.0.0.4.8.4.8.4.1.4.4.e164.org. 600 IN NAPTR 100 10 "u" "E2U+SIP"
    "!^\\+441484840048$!sip:p!" .

    ;; AUTHORITY SECTION:
    e164.org. 600 IN NS ns6.e164.org.
    e164.org. 600 IN NS hemlock.e164.org.
    e164.org. 600 IN NS ns2.e164.org.
    e164.org. 600 IN NS ns5.e164.org.

    ;; Query time: 288 msec
    ;; SERVER: 81.187.73.2#53(81.187.73.2)
    ;; WHEN: Mon Sep 3 17:48:47 2007
    ;; MSG SIZE rcvd: 194


    > Is registration normally done by the number block owner (i.e VOIP
    > gateway owner) or by the individual number owner, in which case how do
    > you establish "ownership" of the relevant zone underneath
    > 6.1.1.4.4.e164.org?


    By individual numbers I believe.

    Tim
     
    Tim, Sep 3, 2007
    #14
  15. Dave Saville

    Andy Burns Guest

    On 03/09/2007 17:49, Tim wrote:

    > You need to lookup a full number.


    yep, thanks :)

    ;; QUESTION SECTION:
    ;1.0.0.8.8.9.2.6.1.1.4.4.e164.org. IN NAPTR

    ;; ANSWER SECTION:
    1.0.0.8.8.9.2.6.1.1.4.4.e164.org. 600 IN NAPTR 100 10 "u"
    "E2U+X-ADDRESS" "!^.*$!data:,O=Protologic Limited\;L=Leicester\;C=United
    Kingdom!" .
    1.0.0.8.8.9.2.6.1.1.4.4.e164.org. 600 IN NAPTR 100 10 "u" "E2U+SIP"
    "!^\\+441162988001$!sip:!" .

    > By individual numbers I believe.


    Well that wasn't too hard, the process was the opposite way round to
    what I though, you give it your phone number and a SIP address, it makes
    a test SIP call to verify it exists, then it makes a phone call to the
    PSTN number and dictates a PIN to you and you enter the PIN into the
    website to verify (not the other way via DTMF as I though)

    I'm surprised it doesn't have some form of PIN verfication on the SIP
    part as well as the PSTN part.
     
    Andy Burns, Sep 3, 2007
    #15
  16. "Ivor Jones" <> wrote in message
    news:...

    > : : There is a system called enum, which isn't officially
    > : : active in the UK. This allows you to lookup the SIP
    > : : address of a phone number, therefore always routing the
    > : : call over SIP. Until various people pull their
    > : : fingers out for the official service, then you can use
    > : : enum by registering on e164.org
    >
    > That's another alternative but I've never managed to get it to work
    > properly, maybe it's me.


    Ivor
    What do you mean with you never managed to get it work properly ??
    * Are you not managing to get your phone numbers registered to e164.org ?
    * Or are you not managing to call a ENUM registered phone number with your
    VOIP equipment ?
    * Or are you not manging to receive calls via your registeerd sip adress

    The first one is very simple: see Andy Burns reply further in this tread how
    to register
    The second one is also simple: I assume you still use your FritzBox
    If "ENUM" is enabled in your FritzBox, then the Box will first check at
    e164.org wether the phone number you dialed has been registered.
    In this case, the call goes directly to your SIP adress.
    To receive "ENUM" calls with your FritzBox, you may want to reserve 1 of
    your 10 Sip entries just for this purpose.
    Give this entry any number (1234)
    you then can receive calls at sip: (example)
    Of course, you will need to have your IP adress registered to a dyndns or
    similar. The FritzBox can manage the updates to the service

    Philippe
     
    Philippe Deleye, Sep 6, 2007
    #16
  17. Dave Saville

    Roger Mills Guest

    In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
    Tim <> wrote:

    >
    > There is a system called enum, which isn't officially active in the
    > UK. This allows you to lookup the SIP address of a phone number,
    > therefore always routing the call over SIP. Until various people
    > pull their fingers out for the official service, then you can use
    > enum by registering on e164.org
    >


    OK, I've registered at e164.org and I've added one of my voip numbers
    (supplied by voip.co.uk) and have had the call-back and entered the supplied
    PIN.

    What next? What does that enable me to do - or enable anyone else to do with
    my number, for that matter? [Their White Pages looks a bit sparse - only
    finding 1 Smith, 3 Browns and no Joneses in the whole of the UK! - am I
    missing something?]
    --
    Cheers,
    Roger
    ______
    Email address maintained for newsgroup use only, and not regularly
    monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks.
    PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP!
     
    Roger Mills, Sep 7, 2007
    #17
  18. Dave Saville

    Tim Guest

    Roger Mills wrote:

    > What next? What does that enable me to do - or enable anyone else to do with
    > my number, for that matter? [Their White Pages looks a bit sparse - only
    > finding 1 Smith, 3 Browns and no Joneses in the whole of the UK! - am I
    > missing something?]


    It means if anybody with e164.org on their phone system dials your phone
    number, then the call will be placed over SIP and avoid the PSTN.



    Tim
     
    Tim, Sep 7, 2007
    #18
  19. Dave Saville

    Roger Mills Guest

    In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
    Tim <> wrote:

    > Roger Mills wrote:
    >
    >> What next? What does that enable me to do - or enable anyone else to
    >> do with my number, for that matter? [Their White Pages looks a bit
    >> sparse - only finding 1 Smith, 3 Browns and no Joneses in the whole
    >> of the UK! - am I missing something?]

    >
    > It means if anybody with e164.org on their phone system dials your
    > phone number, then the call will be placed over SIP and avoid the
    > PSTN.
    >
    >
    >
    > Tim


    Thanks. Could you explain a bit further please? Just what does having
    "e164.org on their phone system" mean? My 'system' consists of a Linksys
    PAP2T connected to my ADSL router, with both its phone ports registered to
    voip.co.uk Can I put e164.org on *my* system and, if so, how?

    Also, I'm under the impression that voip.co.uk don't knowingly permit voip
    to voip calls to and from other companies' customers, and that voip to voip
    calls between their own customers can only officially be made by dialling
    the geographic number. Does the use of e164.org circumvent that in some way?

    Sorry if these questions are naive, but I'm still trying to get my head
    around just what e164.org is and does.
    --
    Cheers,
    Roger
    ______
    Email address maintained for newsgroup use only, and not regularly
    monitored.. Messages sent to it may not be read for several weeks.
    PLEASE REPLY TO NEWSGROUP!
     
    Roger Mills, Sep 7, 2007
    #19
  20. Dave Saville

    Jono Guest

    Tim formulated on Friday :
    > Roger Mills wrote:
    >
    >> What next? What does that enable me to do - or enable anyone else to do with
    >> my number, for that matter? [Their White Pages looks a bit sparse - only
    >> finding 1 Smith, 3 Browns and no Joneses in the whole of the UK! - am I
    >> missing something?]

    >
    > It means if anybody with e164.org on their phone system dials your phone
    > number, then the call will be placed over SIP and avoid the PSTN.
    >


    Even though voip.co.uk don't allow SIP calls from off-net?
     
    Jono, Sep 7, 2007
    #20
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