how do I support windows users?

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by Evil Bastard, May 3, 2005.

  1. Evil Bastard

    Evil Bastard Guest

    Hi,

    I've been using Linux for so long that I've almost forgotten what worms,
    viruses, trojans, spyware etc are.

    Over this time, virus writers have moved ahead in leaps and bounds, as
    has the knowledge base of windows exploits, many of which don't even
    require the victim to open tainted emails or visit tainted websites.

    One guy I know was only online for a week, he promptly installed Norton
    Security and Antivirus and only uses Firefox/Thunderbird, but already
    his PC has become a spambot.

    A number of friends - people who are only using their PCs for email and
    online banking - have been asking my advice on how to detect and
    eliminate infections, which is a bit embarrassing, because my windoze
    knowledge is becoming increasingly dated.

    In cases where people are technically confident, I'm referring them to
    Linux, and giving them contacts for their local LUG chapter.

    But in many cases, people are either too technically diffident or too
    impatient to scale the Linux learning curve, ie learn what disk
    partitions are, how to read manpages, find/read HOWTOs, hack config
    files, recompile kernels, learn shell commands etc.

    Linux has steamed ahead with user-friendliness, but still it often dumps
    the new user arbitrarily into zones of helplessness (eg Mandrake, which
    fails to detect/setup external USB and internal ISA modems, and can't
    get these working without config file hacks).

    So my questions are:
    1. what are the surest and simplest ways of minimising a windows PC's
    security holes?
    2. what are the current best free (or cheap) programs for:
    - firewall
    - antivirus
    - spyware detection/removal?
    3. what are the best/simplest websites which can walk the technically
    unconfident user through the process of securing their PC?
    4. is there anyone in Auckland who can clean up and secure users'
    PCs without charging an arm and a leg?

    Thanks in advance for your sincere help.

    --
    Cheers
    EB

    --

    One who is not a conservative by age 20 has no brain.
    One who is not a liberal by age 40 has no heart.
    Evil Bastard, May 3, 2005
    #1
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  2. Evil Bastard

    SNOman Guest

    Evil Bastard wrote:

    8><
    > So my questions are:
    > 1. what are the surest and simplest ways of minimising a windows PC's
    > security holes?

    8><

    Don't turn it on :)

    BTW (I only use windows)
    SNOman, May 4, 2005
    #2
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  3. Evil Bastard

    thing Guest

    Evil Bastard wrote:
    > Hi,
    >
    > I've been using Linux for so long that I've almost forgotten what worms,
    > viruses, trojans, spyware etc are.
    >
    > Over this time, virus writers have moved ahead in leaps and bounds, as
    > has the knowledge base of windows exploits, many of which don't even
    > require the victim to open tainted emails or visit tainted websites.
    >
    > One guy I know was only online for a week, he promptly installed Norton
    > Security and Antivirus and only uses Firefox/Thunderbird, but already
    > his PC has become a spambot.
    >
    > A number of friends - people who are only using their PCs for email and
    > online banking - have been asking my advice on how to detect and
    > eliminate infections, which is a bit embarrassing, because my windoze
    > knowledge is becoming increasingly dated.
    >
    > In cases where people are technically confident, I'm referring them to
    > Linux, and giving them contacts for their local LUG chapter.
    >
    > But in many cases, people are either too technically diffident or too
    > impatient to scale the Linux learning curve, ie learn what disk
    > partitions are, how to read manpages, find/read HOWTOs, hack config
    > files, recompile kernels, learn shell commands etc.
    >
    > Linux has steamed ahead with user-friendliness, but still it often dumps
    > the new user arbitrarily into zones of helplessness (eg Mandrake, which
    > fails to detect/setup external USB and internal ISA modems, and can't
    > get these working without config file hacks).
    >
    > So my questions are:
    > 1. what are the surest and simplest ways of minimising a windows PC's
    > security holes?


    Run windows update weekly, every Wednesday (MS lets out patches on a
    Tuesday, their time). Indeed arguably do it every time you go online.

    Do not run Outlook or IE5~6 (except for windows updating).

    Install firefox/mozilla/opera for web browsing and email.

    > 2. what are the current best free (or cheap) programs for:
    > - firewall


    A non-MS one.

    > - antivirus


    Just about any, keep them up to date ie at least twice weekly if not
    daily. Clamav is free.

    > - spyware detection/removal?


    Pick a good free one.

    > 3. what are the best/simplest websites which can walk the technically
    > unconfident user through the process of securing their PC?


    There are none, it is a complex subject. Consider that the attackers are
    highly experienced, competant and motivated in what they do (they want
    your money, or someone elses). So you have to be their equal, or employ
    someone who is, on the plus side it is easier to defend than attack.

    > 4. is there anyone in Auckland who can clean up and secure users'
    > PCs without charging an arm and a leg?


    It costs an arm and a leg because of the time involved by a competant
    person, that costs. Funny but MS does not mention this cost in TCO
    calculations, I wonder why not?

    > Thanks in advance for your sincere help.
    >


    Tell them to buy a Mac....and I am serious, if you are technically
    capable then Linux, if not your best defense is running a Mac.

    Linux is no worse when it has hardware detection issues than windows IMHO.

    regards

    thing
    thing, May 4, 2005
    #3
  4. Evil Bastard

    Evil Bastard Guest

    thing wrote:
    > Linux is no worse when it has hardware detection issues than windows IMHO.


    That could be debatable.

    When I install an exotic device in Linux, I quite often have to trawl
    through megabytes of manpages, HOWTOs, mailing list archives.

    If I'm lucky, there might be HTML help pages available. If I'm even
    luckier, such pages might even be well written and helpful.

    If I'm not lucky, I'll end up taking a barrage of insults on irc help
    channels and/or spending a few evenings hacking/recompiling source code.

    Contrast to windows, where the CD packaged with the device has an easy
    black-box installer prog which takes care of all that shit, even if it
    does involve 2-10 mandatory reboots. And where sites like
    driverguide.com help immensely with finding easily-installable drivers.

    In fairness, much of the blame lies with the manufacturers' tight-assed
    and ignorant policies, in refusing to offer linux/bsd support for their
    products (though this /may/ change as linux popularity increases.

    --
    Cheers
    EB

    --

    One who is not a conservative by age 20 has no brain.
    One who is not a liberal by age 40 has no heart.
    Evil Bastard, May 4, 2005
    #4
  5. Evil Bastard

    Peter Guest

    thing wrote:
    >> 2. what are the current best free (or cheap) programs for:
    >> - firewall

    >
    > A non-MS one.


    Does that mean the firewall that comes with XP SP2 is not adequate?

    Do you have any references for this?
    (ie links to tests or reviews or such)

    TIA


    Peter
    Peter, May 4, 2005
    #5
  6. Evil Bastard

    Peter Guest

    Evil Bastard wrote:
    > I've been using Linux for so long that I've almost forgotten what worms,
    > viruses, trojans, spyware etc are.


    Snap, I use Linux for all my home computing, but still have friends ask
    about Windows related stuff. So I have the same questions that you do.


    > So my questions are:
    > 1. what are the surest and simplest ways of minimising a windows PC's
    > security holes?


    Avoid Microsoft software whenever possible, especially for browser and
    email. Firefox and Thunderbird seem to be the best bets here.

    > 2. what are the current best free (or cheap) programs for:
    > - firewall

    Zonealarm
    > - antivirus

    AVG
    > - spyware detection/removal?

    ?
    Adaware is popular, but according to the latest PC World, it only detects
    65% of adware / spyware.
    > 3. what are the best/simplest websites which can walk the technically
    > unconfident user through the process of securing their PC?

    http://www.cert.org/homeusers/
    > 4. is there anyone in Auckland who can clean up and secure users'
    > PCs without charging an arm and a leg?

    (don't know)


    Those are my guesses, but I'd be interested if anyone can provide
    alternative or better options to the above.


    Peter
    Peter, May 4, 2005
    #6
  7. On Wed, 04 May 2005 10:23:17 +1200, Evil Bastard wrote:

    > Hi,
    >
    > I've been using Linux for so long that I've almost forgotten what worms,
    > viruses, trojans, spyware etc are.
    >
    > Over this time, virus writers have moved ahead in leaps and bounds, as
    > has the knowledge base of windows exploits, many of which don't even
    > require the victim to open tainted emails or visit tainted websites.
    >


    Nah they aren't that smart. Most are easily spotted as processes with odd
    names. The windows exploits are mainly those published of course (so as
    with Linux patches ned to be kept current). Alas, many Windows users don't
    have a clue about Windows Update.

    > One guy I know was only online for a week, he promptly installed Norton
    > Security and Antivirus and only uses Firefox/Thunderbird, but already
    > his PC has become a spambot.
    >


    Probably some executable file from P2P or as an attachment. You can't
    trust any these days - a self extractable executable I downloaded made me
    suspicious and lo and behold chocka of spyware. Education required.

    > A number of friends - people who are only using their PCs for email and
    > online banking - have been asking my advice on how to detect and
    > eliminate infections, which is a bit embarrassing, because my windoze
    > knowledge is becoming increasingly dated.


    Microsoft's Anti-spyware does a good job. Spyware Blaster and Spybot
    search and destroy. The spyware problem is just getting silly. Probably
    need to reinstall thier OS from scratch to be sure.
    >
    > In cases where people are technically confident, I'm referring them to
    > Linux, and giving them contacts for their local LUG chapter.
    >

    Sounds like a good idea.

    > But in many cases, people are either too technically diffident or too
    > impatient to scale the Linux learning curve, ie learn what disk
    > partitions are, how to read manpages, find/read HOWTOs, hack config
    > files, recompile kernels, learn shell commands etc.
    >


    Fair enough. OS X then?
    > Linux has steamed ahead with user-friendliness, but still it often dumps
    > the new user arbitrarily into zones of helplessness (eg Mandrake, which
    > fails to detect/setup external USB and internal ISA modems, and can't
    > get these working without config file hacks).
    >

    No helping some people though.
    > So my questions are:
    > 1. what are the surest and simplest ways of minimising a windows PC's
    > security holes?


    Patch, patch, patch and avoid IE like the plague. Turn many unneeded
    services off. Don't make users admins.

    > 2. what are the current best free (or cheap) programs for:
    > - firewall


    Well the XP firewall is better than nothing. Alas other firewalls probably
    just confuse the average user (they'll probably just allow everything).
    > - antivirus


    I use AntiVir personal edition
    > - spyware detection/removal?


    MS Anti-Spyware, SpywareBlaster, SpyBot search and destroy. Adaware.
    > 3. what are the best/simplest websites which can walk the technically
    > unconfident user through the process of securing their PC?


    Pass. But something like http://safecomputing.open.ac.uk/
    > 4. is there anyone in Auckland who can clean up and secure users'
    > PCs without charging an arm and a leg?


    Auckland - somewhere up North??
    >
    > Thanks in advance for your sincere help.
    wogers nemesis, May 4, 2005
    #7
  8. Evil Bastard

    David Preece Guest

    Evil Bastard wrote:
    > I've been using Linux for so long that I've almost forgotten what worms,
    > viruses, trojans, spyware etc are.


    I've recently had a similar experience. After a long time using a Mac
    and babysitting two windows boxes (one of which doesn't have a net
    connection), I suddenly found myself looking after four - one of which
    was on dialup.

    The dialup machine was Win2k, fresh from the disk, no service packs or
    anything. Do you have any idea how long it takes to...

    * Go to windowsupdate and do the funky update thing, including about
    four reboots.
    * Update the virus software.
    * Download AdAware and run that.

    On dialup? Neither do I, it was obviously going to be faster to chuck it
    in the car, take it home, update it over cable, and bring it back again
    so I did.

    Now, if I was charging for my time.....

    > A number of friends - people who are only using their PCs for email and
    > online banking - have been asking my advice on how to detect and
    > eliminate infections, which is a bit embarrassing, because my windoze
    > knowledge is becoming increasingly dated.


    Run windowsupdate, anti virus software and adaware. Probably in that
    order. It takes ages. Particularly on elderly P2's and others of that ilk.

    > 1. what are the surest and simplest ways of minimising a windows PC's
    > security holes?


    See above. Somewhere in the pile of disks that came with your latest
    motherboard will be a 90 day trial of Norton antivirus.

    > 2. what are the current best free (or cheap) programs for:
    > - firewall


    XP SP2. Failing that ZoneAlarm.

    > - spyware detection/removal?


    AdAware. Not Adware, which (IIRC) is a trojan with a similar name.
    Welcome to Windows.

    > 3. what are the best/simplest websites which can walk the technically
    > unconfident user through the process of securing their PC?


    LOL.

    > 4. is there anyone in Auckland who can clean up and secure users'
    > PCs without charging an arm and a leg?


    Pfft! No. How are they supposed to earn a living? I suppose someone
    sufficiently l33t would have all the updates and what have you on CD.
    Still pretty time consuming. Maybe student job search?

    Dave
    David Preece, May 4, 2005
    #8
  9. Evil Bastard

    Bruce Knox Guest

    On Wed, 04 May 2005 10:23:17 +1200, Evil Bastard <>
    wrote:

    >Hi,

    ....

    1 Use XP SP2 if pos.
    2 Leave on firewall and auto update (defaults in SP2). Other os make
    sure update is turned on or run monthly.
    3 In my experience XPs firewall is adequate for everything but is one
    way. For extra security Zone Alarms free addition is good but you
    should turn off the windows firewall if running it. As a developer I
    find it too much of a nuisance as each time I recompile a program that
    accesses the internet I have to give it access through ZoneAlarms. For
    me windows firewall does fine.
    4 For antivirus I use Avast! (www.avast.com) (free). In the last two
    years running the above setup I have encountered only one virus as an
    email attachment and avast stopped it before it was downloaded. It
    actually bet my ISPs virus filter in detecting it.
    5 Spyware - This is more a user problem than a machine problem. Teach
    people to avoid installing stupid little gimics off the net that then
    install this. Avoid installing and the only spyware you get are
    cookies that track you no matter what sytem you run (unless you
    disable them which is stupid if you really want the web to work for
    you). I do run AdAware and if I did high risk things (P2P for example)
    I would run at least a couple of different such free scanners.
    [Rereading that about installing is strange since I am a developer
    that offers silly little programs for free from my web site]

    The above said I do use Firefox and Thunderbird but even these now
    have regular security updates and it is only time before there are
    exploits for them. The only real solution is to use a lesser (in
    number of users) operating system thet wont attract abusers because it
    is more difficult to reach critical infection rates. BUT at present
    most of the world is MS so most people go that way to take advantage
    of the huge resources that being the most popular brings with it.

    Hope that helps,
    Bruce.
    Bruce Knox, May 4, 2005
    #9
  10. Evil Bastard

    Enkidu Guest

    David Preece wrote:
    >
    > The dialup machine was Win2k, fresh from the disk, no service
    > packs or anything. Do you have any idea how long it takes

    to...
    >
    > * Go to windowsupdate and do the funky update thing, including
    > about four reboots.
    > * Update the virus software.
    > * Download AdAware and run that.
    >

    Wrong order. Get someone to download the antivirus software
    or buy a shrinkwrap. Get someone to download the current
    virus defs and install them. Get someone to grab the latest
    Adware *and* updates and install them. Get the latest SpyBot
    S&D *and* the updates, and install them. Get the latest MS
    Service Packs (on CD) and install them and then and only
    then go to WindowsUpdate. And yes, that is how I do it.

    Cheers,

    Cliff

    --

    Barzoomian the Martian - http://barzoomian.blogspot.com
    Enkidu, May 4, 2005
    #10
  11. In message <4277f9c7$>, Evil Bastard
    <> wrote:

    >So my questions are:
    > 1. what are the surest and simplest ways of minimising a windows PC's
    > security holes?


    First step, assuming Windows XP, is to get Service Pack 2. Call
    Microsoft NZ and they'll mail out a CD for free. That includes a
    security monitor that will remind your winbunnies to update their AV,
    and warn if their firewall or Windows Update is turned off. Pain in
    the neck thing. Then Windows Update.

    > 2. what are the current best free (or cheap) programs for:
    > - firewall


    Browse download.com. ZoneAlarm or Kerio seem to be the most
    recommended.

    > - antivirus


    Browse download.com. Personally I use AVG. The latest AVG updates
    automatically daily when you go online.

    > - spyware detection/removal?


    Browse download.com. I use the often recommended combination of
    Adaware and Spybot Search and Destroy.

    Neither Spybot nor Adaware automatically update, but Spybot
    "immunises" as well as having an active scanner. Adaware has to be
    actively run. Of course active scans can be automated using Windows
    scheduler.

    > 3. what are the best/simplest websites which can walk the technically
    > unconfident user through the process of securing their PC?


    No idea.

    > 4. is there anyone in Auckland who can clean up and secure users'
    > PCs without charging an arm and a leg?


    If you've got return airfare from Timaru to Auckland. ;-)

    --
    R.G. "Stumpy" Marsh.
    Timaru, New Zealand.
    R. G. 'Stumpy' Marsh, May 4, 2005
    #11
  12. In message <>, Enkidu
    <> wrote:

    >Wrong order. Get someone to download the antivirus software
    >or buy a shrinkwrap. Get someone to download the current
    >virus defs and install them. Get someone to grab the latest
    >Adware *and* updates and install them. Get the latest SpyBot
    >S&D *and* the updates, and install them. Get the latest MS
    >Service Packs (on CD) and install them and then and only
    >then go to WindowsUpdate. And yes, that is how I do it.


    Australian PC Authority and NZ PC World usually have AVG, AdAware,
    Spybot S&D and ZoneAlarm on their cover disks, along with a bunch of
    other stuff. Call Microsoft for SP2.

    Once you have all of those installed and them and Windows Update all
    up to date, I find the best order to regularly run the scanners is
    AVG, AdAware then Spybot.

    --
    R.G. "Stumpy" Marsh.
    Timaru, New Zealand.
    R. G. 'Stumpy' Marsh, May 4, 2005
    #12
  13. Evil Bastard

    phstpok Guest

    Ok, start with a clean install + sv2, install an antivirus (personal
    favorite at the mo' is Antivir), Spybot-sd and Adaware SE personal.
    With XP Service pack 2, if you haven't f... around, the firewall should
    be on.

    I am presuming you will have all 3 programs on a cd.

    Go online and update dat files for all 3. Go offline and run all 3.
    Beat it into all heads who intend to use the pc that all 3 need updating
    & scanning regularly.

    Stay offline and teach them how to play tiddlywinks. Never let them go
    near the net again.

    There are better anti-virii, firewalls, spybot destroyers etc.
    availalable, depends on your choice and whether you want to pay for
    them, but these will do for starters.

    Rob
    phstpok, May 4, 2005
    #13
  14. Evil Bastard

    Evil Bastard Guest

    phstpok wrote:
    > Ok, start with a clean install + sv2, install an antivirus (personal
    > favorite at the mo' is Antivir), Spybot-sd and Adaware SE personal.
    > With XP Service pack 2, if you haven't f... around, the firewall should
    > be on.


    8><

    > I am presuming you will have all 3 programs on a cd.
    >
    > Go online and update dat files for all 3. Go offline and run all 3.
    > Beat it into all heads who intend to use the pc that all 3 need updating
    > & scanning regularly.
    >
    > Stay offline and teach them how to play tiddlywinks. Never let them go
    > near the net again.
    >
    > There are better anti-virii, firewalls, spybot destroyers etc.
    > availalable, depends on your choice and whether you want to pay for
    > them, but these will do for starters.


    Personally I might stick to Linux - compared to this it's way simpler

    --
    Cheers
    EB

    --

    One who is not a conservative by age 20 has no brain.
    One who is not a liberal by age 40 has no heart.
    Evil Bastard, May 4, 2005
    #14
  15. In article <>, says...
    > thing wrote:
    > >> 2. what are the current best free (or cheap) programs for:
    > >> - firewall

    > >
    > > A non-MS one.

    >
    > Does that mean the firewall that comes with XP SP2 is not adequate?
    >
    > Do you have any references for this?
    > (ie links to tests or reviews or such)
    >
    > TIA
    >
    >
    > Peter


    By way of the simple mechanism that the XP firewall only walls incoming
    traffic. It is, as I understand it, quite adequate at keeping intrusion
    attempts out.

    However, it does not control outgoing - so if you have an internal
    modem, and you have by some mechanism become infected with a
    backdoor/trojan/spam-server, then these can happily 'call home' and the
    MS firewall will not attempt to do anything about it.

    Given that I have on several occasions nailed trojans by virtue of that
    very same mechanism in other firewalls (e.g. they throw up a requester
    when a trojan tries to connect out) I think that that would be a strong
    argument to use an alternative solution if at all possible.

    -Peter
    Peter Huebner, May 4, 2005
    #15
  16. In article <427876a0$>,
    says...
    >
    > > 2. what are the current best free (or cheap) programs for:
    > > - firewall

    >
    > XP SP2. Failing that ZoneAlarm.
    >


    ! xp_sp2

    but add in Sygate and Kerio. I would put either of these above ZA.

    -Peter
    Peter Huebner, May 4, 2005
    #16
  17. On Wed, 04 May 2005 10:23:17 +1200, Evil Bastard <>
    wrote:

    >Hi,
    >
    >I've been using Linux for so long that I've almost forgotten what worms,
    >viruses, trojans, spyware etc are.
    >
    >Over this time, virus writers have moved ahead in leaps and bounds, as
    >has the knowledge base of windows exploits, many of which don't even
    >require the victim to open tainted emails or visit tainted websites.
    >
    >One guy I know was only online for a week, he promptly installed Norton
    >Security and Antivirus and only uses Firefox/Thunderbird, but already
    >his PC has become a spambot.


    So he's a fool
    I have one pc still running 95 and FFox etc never been infected
    Another one running 98, AVG and FFox / Thunderbird never infected

    >But in many cases, people are either too technically diffident or too
    >impatient to scale the Linux learning curve, ie learn what disk
    >partitions are, how to read manpages, find/read HOWTOs, hack config
    >files, recompile kernels, learn shell commands etc.


    Too much stuff in Linx you shouldnt have to know
    Dos was complicated enough
    FreedomChooser, May 4, 2005
    #17
  18. On Wed, 04 May 2005 13:28:19 +1200, Evil Bastard <>
    wrote:


    >In fairness, much of the blame lies with the manufacturers' tight-assed
    >and ignorant policies, in refusing to offer linux/bsd support for their
    >products (though this /may/ change as linux popularity increases.


    It is largely because the linux zealots insist the software must be
    open source
    Thus expecting the manufactures to give away trade secrets in their
    hardware
    FreedomChooser, May 4, 2005
    #18
  19. On Wed, 04 May 2005 19:15:44 +1200, David Preece
    <> wrote:

    >Evil Bastard wrote:
    >> I've been using Linux for so long that I've almost forgotten what worms,
    >> viruses, trojans, spyware etc are.

    >
    >I've recently had a similar experience. After a long time using a Mac
    >and babysitting two windows boxes (one of which doesn't have a net
    >connection), I suddenly found myself looking after four - one of which
    >was on dialup.
    >
    >The dialup machine was Win2k, fresh from the disk, no service packs or
    >anything. Do you have any idea how long it takes to...
    >
    >* Go to windowsupdate and do the funky update thing, including about
    >four reboots.


    Get Service packs by CD from MS for only a few $
    FreedomChooser, May 4, 2005
    #19
  20. Evil Bastard

    AD. Guest

    On Thu, 05 May 2005 03:10:20 +1200, FreedomChooser wrote:

    > Too much stuff in Linx you shouldnt have to know Dos was complicated
    > enough


    That seems a pretty ironic comment in a thread detailing a myriad of
    complicated steps (for the audience in question) requiring all kinds of
    3rd party software that all works different ways.

    I imagine that for these kinds of users, using something like Ubuntu or
    Xandros would probably seem quite simple in comparison.

    Keep in mind that most of the solutions involve using Firefox or
    Thunderbird. On a Linux distros the OS would take care of installing and
    updating all those extra apps, while Windows Update doesn't and the user
    would have to update them themselves.

    Linux only gets harder if you're on a less hand holding distro or you want
    to dig into the guts a bit. Then again Windows also gets quite complicated
    when you need to dig into the guts a bit too.

    Comments like that usually come from people that have forgotten and/or
    underestimated just how much effort they invested in learning how Windows
    works.

    --
    Cheers
    Anton
    AD., May 4, 2005
    #20
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