Home LAN question

Discussion in 'Computer Information' started by e.w., Jun 26, 2008.

  1. e.w.

    e.w. Guest

    Hello, I have an issue that I need help resolving for a home LAN I am
    planning.

    My current router has only four wired ports, and they are all used. I
    have the need for more ports, and was looking on Newegg at both
    switches and hubs. Basically, I would like to know if I can piggyback
    them together from one of the outputs (searching the net seems to
    indicate that I can) to the input of the switch (or hub?). Also, the
    Netgear switches I was looking at with eight ports have only the eight
    ports labeled 1-8 but there is no "input" port as in an ordinary
    router, so how would I go about wiring things up? The router I have
    also handles the FiOS line, so I want to continue to use it.

    Thanks in advance for any help.

    Ernie
    e.w., Jun 26, 2008
    #1
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  2. e.w.

    GTS Guest

    Yes. Just connect any port on the switch to one of the LAN ports on your
    router. (I usually use port 1 on a linked switch just as a convention.)
    Most switches today are auto-sensing, meaning that they don't need a
    separate uplink port or a cross over cable. They will automatically handle
    the connection from the router.
    --

    "e.w." <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Hello, I have an issue that I need help resolving for a home LAN I am
    > planning.
    >
    > My current router has only four wired ports, and they are all used. I
    > have the need for more ports, and was looking on Newegg at both
    > switches and hubs. Basically, I would like to know if I can piggyback
    > them together from one of the outputs (searching the net seems to
    > indicate that I can) to the input of the switch (or hub?). Also, the
    > Netgear switches I was looking at with eight ports have only the eight
    > ports labeled 1-8 but there is no "input" port as in an ordinary
    > router, so how would I go about wiring things up? The router I have
    > also handles the FiOS line, so I want to continue to use it.
    >
    > Thanks in advance for any help.
    >
    > Ernie
    GTS, Jun 26, 2008
    #2
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  3. e.w.

    Guest

    On Jun 26, 1:45 am, "e.w." <> wrote:
    > Hello, I have an issue that I need help resolving for a home LAN I am
    > planning.
    >
    > My current router has only four wired ports, and they are all used.  I
    > have the need for more ports, and was looking on Newegg at both
    > switches and hubs.  Basically, I would like to know if I can piggyback
    > them together from one of the outputs (searching the net seems to
    > indicate that I can) to the input of the switch (or hub?).  Also, the
    > Netgear switches I was looking at with eight ports have only the eight
    > ports labeled 1-8 but there is no "input" port as in an ordinary
    > router, so how would I go about wiring things up?  The router I have
    > also handles the FiOS line, so I want to continue to use it.
    >
    > Thanks in advance for any help.
    >
    > Ernie


    why not just buy the switch and try things ?

    there is a potential issue to do with needing a cross-over cable, or
    one of the ports to be cross-over (aka uplink port I think). But you
    can find that out soon enough if it doesn't work. You could buy a x-
    over cable just incase, and you could buy a "crossover adaptor".
    "cross over adaptor" or whatever you call them. see google images.
    They effectively convert the straight through cable to cross-over .

    I would bet that you won't have any straight through vs crossover
    cable / port / adaptor issue though 'cos if your switch doesn't have
    any "uplink port"(crossover port), then I would bet that it's
    autosensing, so it will work.. And if your other device has an
    uplink port then that's all you need. You only need one.

    I may be wrong calling an uplink port a cross-over port.. But I get
    the idea..
    about like interfaces and unlike interfaces. And
    computers and routers have unlike interfaces so a straight through
    cable joins them. That kind of thing. And an "uplink port" is one port
    whose interface is the other way. So a router can connect to a
    router.

    Tx=transmit
    Rx=receive

    1 pretend 2 wire cable

    int1 int2
    Tx------------------------------Rx
    Rx-----------------------------Tx

    see 2 interfaces/ports connected with a cable.
    or call the intefaces the thing behind the ports maybe.

    an ethernet cable has 8 wires.

    Pre gigabit ethernet, 4 are unused.

    So the 4 used as 2 twisted pairs. A cable connects 2 ports.
    You don't want Tx-------------Tx which could happen if interfaces
    are alike and you use a straight-through cable.

    so you have cross-over cables . And you have devices with unlike
    interfaces


    straight through cables connected devices with unlike interfaces.
    cross-over cables connect devices with like interfaces.

    I am not sure particularly if there is a name for the type of ports
    that Routers use compared to the type that computers use. They are
    unlike.. But what specifically each is called. I am not sure.. Maybe
    somebody knows.
    , Jun 27, 2008
    #3
  4. e.w.

    caveat Guest

    "e.w." <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Hello, I have an issue that I need help resolving for a home LAN I am
    > planning.
    >
    > My current router has only four wired ports, and they are all used. I
    > have the need for more ports, and was looking on Newegg at both
    > switches and hubs. Basically, I would like to know if I can piggyback
    > them together from one of the outputs (searching the net seems to
    > indicate that I can) to the input of the switch (or hub?). Also, the
    > Netgear switches I was looking at with eight ports have only the eight
    > ports labeled 1-8 but there is no "input" port as in an ordinary
    > router, so how would I go about wiring things up? The router I have
    > also handles the FiOS line, so I want to continue to use it.
    >
    > Thanks in advance for any help.
    >
    > Ernie


    You can connect any port of the router to any port of the switch. However,
    depending on which router and/or switch you use you may need a cross-over
    cable. I'm not sure how the gigabit cables are wired but with 100 megabit
    Ethernet cables the cross-over is done by swapping the orange and green
    pairs. Most modern routers and switches or hubs can auto-detect the need for
    cross-over or they have a switch that you can trip to make one port a
    cross-over port.

    The difference between a switch and a hub is that a hub shares all its lines
    so only two devices can communicate through a hub at a time. This is where
    CSMA/CD (you can google it) comes into play.
    With a switch, the two communicating devices have an exclusive communication
    path and the other ports in the switch are free to be used by other devices.

    If you are simply connecting the computers together for internet access then
    you probably won't notice much speed difference between a hub vs. a switch
    since the internet access will be shared in both situations and the access
    speed of the internet connection is usually the greatest bottleneck.

    If however, you are sending a lot of files between computers then you would
    probably notice an advantage with a switch.

    As far as how to wire it, you are better off putting all the computers that
    need to communicate with each other on the same switch. This way they can
    set up an unobstructed communication path between each other. Other wise, if
    computer (A) on the router wants to communicate with computer (B) on the
    connected switch while computer (C) on the switch wants to use the internet
    then computer (B) and (C) are both trying to communicate over the link
    cable.
    This is usually not much of a problem with a small home network but it is
    something to think about for large networks or networks that do a lot of
    talking with each other at the same time.

    As far as FiOS, I think it is a higher level protocol than Physical or Data
    Link, so it should be OK through any hub or switch. Not sure about that
    though since I know almost nothing about FiOS.

    Chris
    caveat, Jun 27, 2008
    #4
  5. e.w.

    Guest

    On Jun 27, 1:54 am, ""
    <> wrote:
    > On Jun 26, 1:45 am, "e.w." <> wrote:

    <snip>

    I asked if there was a name for the ports that are one way and the
    ones that are another way.

    Here are the names and which is which


    Conclusion from all this is essentially this

    H=hub, S=switch C=computer R=router

    MDI MDIX
    C H
    R S

    but since home routers with modem contain a switch, they prob connect
    with a straight through cable.
    and the ports are autosensing anyway.
    so they'd prob connect with a crossover too.
    I don't know whether home routers without modem. Whether they use a
    switch or not. No doubt they have autosensing too anyway.

    The above table did come from cisco people, so I don't kow if it is
    cisco specific. Certainly though C/the NI in a comp, uses MDI.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Which devices are MDI and which are MDIX?

    [
    Computers (The NI-network interface (NIC or embedded on MBRD NI) are
    MDI).


    I have thought
    Routers would be MDIX ('cos they must be the opposite since they
    connect to computers with a straight-through). My use of "home routers
    with modems"
    But with autosensing one wouldn't know, and those types of home router
    have a switch built in. So my experience or tests there are not much
    good.

    From this table, it seems that routers are MDI


    http://www.sadikhov.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=46523
    http://www.sadikhov.com/forum/lofiversion/index.php?t48754.html


    Notice from this table. of Hub,switch,router,workstation

    Hubs and Switches are in the same bag. i.e. LIKE devices. (look
    horizontally or vertically at H,S, they are the same. similarly with
    R,W)
    Routers and workstations are in the same bag , i.e. LIKE devices

    one can see W and R, are connected with a crossover, so they must be
    alike.
    H and S are connected with t so they must be unlike.

    And it's obvious that connecting the same thing like w-w s-s r-r h-h
    needs a crossover.

    t=straight through
    x=crossover

    H S R W

    H x x t t

    S x x t t

    R t t x x

    W t t x x



    (so saying that devices are connected with a crossover would be
    untrue. *Like* devices are connected with a crossover though!).

    though nowadays, every port is MDI/MDIX i.e. autosenses
    so wherever this 1 uplink port was, I think it no longer exists

    So

    MDI MDIX
    W

    we know that from wikipedia about an MDI port.

    We can add to that list

    MDI MDIX
    W H
    R S


    workstation/computer.
    change W to C.

    MDI MDIX
    C H
    R S

    computer rhymes with router.
    hubs/switches <-- very similar .


    somebody on one of the links wrote that there is some relationship
    between OSI layer and this, but that is false. He from what he wrote
    had never used a hub!
    Hubs and switches are of course different OSI layers
    ]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MDI_port
    A medium dependent interface (MDI) port or an uplink port is an
    Ethernet port connection typically used on the Network Interface Card
    (NIC) or Integrated NIC port on a PC

    [is it still called an uplink port on other MDIX devices?]





    http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/M/MDIX.htm
    Short for medium dependent interface crossover (the “X” representing
    “crossover”), an Ethernet port connection that allows networked end
    stations (i.e., PCs or workstations) to connect to each other using a
    null-modem, or crossover, cable.
    Compare with MDI.

    MDIX=MDIX port (MDIX is also referred to as MDIX port)



    http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cach...,00.html MDI MDIX Ethernet&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4
    "
    - MDI/MDIX is a type of Ethernet port connection using twisted pair
    cabling. The MDI (for medium dependent interface) is the component of
    the media attachment unit (MAU) that provides the physical and
    electrical connection to the cabling medium.

    An MDIX (for MDI crossover) is a version of MDI that enables
    connection between like devices.
    [the above sentence is overly confusing and odd, I would ignore it]

    MDI ports connect to MDIX ports via straight-through twisted pair
    cabling; both MDI-to-MDI and MDIX-to-MDIX connections use crossover
    twisted pair cabling.
    "
    , Jun 27, 2008
    #5
  6. e.w.

    Guest

    On Jun 27, 3:54 pm, Steve Meyerson <> wrote:
    > On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 17:45:18 -0700 (PDT), "e.w." <>
    > wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > >Hello, I have an issue that I need help resolving for a home LAN I am
    > >planning.

    >
    > >My current router has only four wired ports, and they are all used.  I
    > >have the need for more ports, and was looking on Newegg at both
    > >switches and hubs.  Basically, I wouldliketo know if I can piggyback
    > >them together from one of the outputs (searching the net seems to
    > >indicate that I can) to the input of the switch (or hub?).  Also, the
    > >Netgear switches I was looking at with eight ports have only the eight
    > >ports labeled 1-8 but there is no "input" port as in an ordinary
    > >router, so how would I go about wiring things up?  The router I have
    > >also handles the FiOS line, so I want to continue to use it.

    >
    > >Thanks in advance for any help.

    >
    > >Ernie

    >
    > You got some good answers. Here's my 2 cents.
    >
    > My Linksys 5-port switch has an input (6th) port labeled "Uplink". The
    > switch  was inexpensive (don't remember exactly how much it cost).
    > Model is EZXS55W 10/100 5-port Workgroup Switch.
    >
    > All I did was run a cable from one of my 4-port router's output port
    > to the switch's Uplink port and it works as if I had a 9-port router
    > (as far as I can tell - someone may prove me wrong on this). Actually
    > I have a computer and a network printer attached to the switch.
    >
    > Steve-


    I think that if your router ports are really router ports then you
    would be able to give each its own subnet.

    And you cannot do that with switch ports.

    The question then would be whether the thing you call a router, has
    switch ports or router ports. What make/model is it?
    Maybe somebody knows which it has..
    it would be interesting..
    , Jun 27, 2008
    #6
  7. e.w.

    Guest

    On Jun 27, 6:07 pm, Steve Meyerson <> wrote:
    > On Fri, 27 Jun 2008 07:58:28 -0700 (PDT), ""
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > <> wrote:
    > >On Jun 27, 3:54 pm, Steve Meyerson <> wrote:
    > >> On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 17:45:18 -0700 (PDT), "e.w." <>
    > >> wrote:

    >
    > >> >Hello, I have an issue that I need help resolving for a home LAN I am
    > >> >planning.

    >
    > >> >My current router has only four wired ports, and they are all used. I
    > >> >have the need for more ports, and was looking on Newegg at both
    > >> >switches and hubs. Basically, I wouldliketo know if I can piggyback
    > >> >them together from one of the outputs (searching the net seems to
    > >> >indicate that I can) to the input of the switch (or hub?). Also, the
    > >> >Netgear switches I was looking at with eight ports have only the eight
    > >> >ports labeled 1-8 but there is no "input" port as in an ordinary
    > >> >router, so how would I go about wiring things up? The router I have
    > >> >also handles the FiOS line, so I want to continue to use it.

    >
    > >> >Thanks in advance for any help.

    >
    > >> >Ernie

    >
    > >> You got some good answers. Here's my 2 cents.

    >
    > >> My Linksys 5-port switch has an input (6th) port labeled "Uplink". The
    > >> switch was inexpensive (don't remember exactly how much it cost).
    > >> Model is EZXS55W 10/100 5-port Workgroup Switch.

    >
    > >> All I did was run a cable from one of my 4-port router's output port
    > >> to the switch's Uplink port and it works as if I had a 9-port router
    > >> (as far as I can tell - someone may prove me wrong on this). Actually
    > >> I have a computer and a network printer attached to the switch.

    >
    > >> Steve-

    >
    > >I think that if your router ports are really router ports then you
    > >would be able to give each its own subnet.

    >
    > >And you cannot do that with switch ports.

    >
    > >The question then would be whether the thing you call a router, has
    > >switch ports or router ports. What make/model is it?
    > >Maybe somebody knows which it has..
    > >it would be interesting..

    >
    > It's a Linksys Broadband Router with 2 phone ports - Model RTP300. (I
    > use the phone ports for my 2 Vonage lines).
    > Steve-


    I see a manual here
    http://www.vonage.com/help.php?article=936&category=90&nav=3

    I see it is of the type.. Router without modem. So, it has an
    ethernet port for one to connect it to a modem. These often have more
    advanced router features.. I have always been unsure whether these
    ones are real routers / have real router ports.

    the truth is out there! anybody?




    note- for others.. Looking at the manual..this model does have
    telephone sockets, RJ11 sockets. but in this case, not because it has
    a modem.. Not for connecting to the wall. Not a modem in the typical
    sense anyway. The RJ11 sockets are for connecting a telephone to. I
    may be wrong there, my knowledge of voip and modems are limited.

    I see , checking ebay for a wired router without modem, did router -
    dsl -wireless, I got
    BEFSR41
    It's advertised as a cable/dsl router. The fact that it says cable/
    dsl means neither really. Any modem is not included and is connected
    externally. So it's like your router in that sense. Typically this
    type of router has more advanced features.. And perhaps not a switch.
    The manual for that one says it has a switch , very early on, in the
    features.


    Your one.. I don't see any router like features in your one.. anything
    more than the router/switches I have. And when it refers to subnet
    mask, it refers to it as for the whole thing. So it is not on a per
    port basis. So this is most probably switch ports.
    And it says
    "
    Ethernet 1-4 These four Ethernet ports connect to network devices,
    such as PCs or more switches.
    "
    The fact that it says "more switches" implies that there is already a
    switch.. Which could only be that..

    So, I think it has a switch.
    So, you would be more correct in saying that you "router, has a 4
    port switch built in(+ 1 switch port - the uplink port), and so
    connecting a 5 port switch to that uplink port, makes it like a 9
    port switch.

    Connecting 2 of the same type of device together, like 2 switches.
    Requires either that you have one interface reversed i.e. what the
    uplink port is for.
    Or, you have both interfaces the same and use a crossover cable.
    So you could also connect your switch to one of the regular ports on
    your "linksys RT300 router/switch". But using a crossover cable.
    This is to ensure that the transmit(Tx) connects to the receive(Rx).

    Since if 2 interfaces are alike and you connect them with a straight-
    through cable, you get a clash. Hence the 2 possible solutions
    - crossover cable
    - uplink port
    or a third solution, using an adaptor to make a straight through cable
    like a crossover cable.
    And if your 5 port switch has no uplink port, then maybe it's
    autosensing, and you could connect it to one of the regular ports on
    your router/switch and it will still work.

    And when I say router/switch, I mean the linksys RT300, which has many
    things in it. It has a router in it with only 2 arms, (so not much of
    a decision to make when it receives something at one end.. it only
    really needs to pass it to the other end!). On the LAN end, it is
    connected to a switch - which you see. So when you connect something
    to the RT300's regular ports or uplink port, you are connecting it to
    a switch. But I suppose the WAN port it has, that is a port of the
    router itself. (the switch is only on the LAN end)
    , Jun 27, 2008
    #7
  8. e.w.

    caveat Guest

    "- Bobb -" <bobb@noemail.123> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    > "caveat" <> wrote in message
    > news:sp%8k.5137$...
    >>
    >> "e.w." <> wrote in message
    >> news:...
    >>> Hello, I have an issue that I need help resolving for a home LAN I am
    >>> planning.
    >>>
    >>> My current router has only four wired ports, and they are all used. I
    >>> have the need for more ports, and was looking on Newegg at both
    >>> switches and hubs. Basically, I would like to know if I can piggyback
    >>> them together from one of the outputs (searching the net seems to
    >>> indicate that I can) to the input of the switch (or hub?). Also, the
    >>> Netgear switches I was looking at with eight ports have only the eight
    >>> ports labeled 1-8 but there is no "input" port as in an ordinary
    >>> router, so how would I go about wiring things up? The router I have
    >>> also handles the FiOS line, so I want to continue to use it.
    >>>
    >>> Thanks in advance for any help.
    >>>
    >>> Ernie

    >
    > Here's a walk-through by Dan Bricklin of FIOS at his house.
    > http://www.bricklin.com/fiosinstall.htm
    > ( Ok who remembers - before Excel - before Lotus 1-2-3 , before the
    > original IBM PC - there was VisiCalc. He's the guy who wrote VisiCalc -
    > which made the Apple II not a hobbyist toy, but a useful business
    > computer. The rest is history.)
    >
    > I tried:
    > http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=fios router switch wiring
    > and see that for FIOS, Verizon needs to "turn on ONT", so read a few of
    > those posts, like"
    > http://www.broadbandreports.com/forum/r20154935-Verizon-Fios-ONT-Enabling-CAT5-Connection-Help
    > Seems like if you take Verizon account default install, it won't work ???
    > I don't have Verizon - just from reading these, it seems like you need to
    > ASK for ONT during install.


    OK, it looks like FIOS is a fiber technology - I learned something new.

    Thanks
    caveat, Jun 28, 2008
    #8
  9. e.w.

    Guest

    On Jun 28, 1:28 pm, Steve Meyerson <> wrote:
    > On Fri, 27 Jun 2008 12:05:02 -0700 (PDT), ""
    >

    <snip>
    >
    > >note- for others.. Looking at the manual..this model does have
    > >telephone sockets, RJ11 sockets. but in this case, not because it has
    > >a modem.. Not for connecting to the wall. Not a modem in the typical
    > >sense anyway. The RJ11 sockets are for connecting a telephone to.  I
    > >may be wrong there, my knowledge of voip and modems are limited.

    >
    > You're correct in that the line into the RJ11 socket goes to the phone
    > itself, not the wall. Actually, I do use the in-house wiring, but only
    > to connect 3 phone extensions to my system (after disconnecting the
    > landline phone company's voltage from the house).


    interesting.., when you say you use the in-house wiring, do you mean
    you plug it to the wall? I guess that makes sense, number dialling
    done by the telephone, and internet connection going out elsewhere -
    in this case through your connected modem, and through the wall.

    >
    >
    >
    > >I see , checking ebay for a wired router without modem,  did router -
    > >dsl -wireless, I got
    > >BEFSR41
    > >It's advertised as a cable/dsl router.   The fact that it says cable/
    > >dsl means neither really. Any modem is not included and is connected
    > >externally.  So it's like your router in that sense. Typically this
    > >type of router has more advanced features.. And perhaps not a switch.
    > >The manual for that one says it has a switch , very early on, in the
    > >features.

    >
    > I used a BEFSR41, but had to "switch" because it had no RJ11 socket.
    > Vonage supplied the RTP300 ($??) when I signed up with them 2 yrs ago.
    >
    > Note: I've been very satisfied with Vonage, but Verizon switched me to
    > a fancy ActionTec router (free, I think) when I signed up for their
    > FIOS. It conked out 7 days after the 1-yr warranty expired, so I
    > switched back to the RTP300 and it appears to handle FIOS fine.
    >
    >


    you prob know this already, but

    always check the heat. (can see how hot a router/modem is getting,
    with your hand)

    don't run a router/modem on a carpet. Especially, check for any
    holes, you don't want them on the carpet. Wooden surface is best. And
    holes up. I have a router upside down (because holes are on the
    bottom!), and I put it on a wooden floor.

    laptops also, good to run on wooden surface. Big no no to run them on
    carpet or bed. one could probably see the cpu temp rise in BIOS or
    with software if one does that.

    <snip>
    > >Connecting 2 of the same type of device together, like 2 switches.
    > >Requires either that you have one interface reversed i.e. what the
    > >uplink port is for.
    > >Or, you have both interfaces the same and use a crossover cable.
    > >So you could also connect your switch to one of the regular ports on
    > >your "linksys RT300 router/switch". But using a crossover cable.
    > >This is to ensure that the transmit(Tx) connects to the receive(Rx).

    >
    > I think the cable I used is a regular (not crossover) cable, so I
    > guess one of the "interfaces" must be reversed. ?
    >


    in any pair of ports connected by a straight-through cable, if it
    works then it has to be that one port is the reverse of the other.

    Your RT300 is a switch where you plug the cable in. Its ports are
    "like" the ports of your 5 port switch. You use your uplink port on
    your RT300. That is so-called because it is the "reverse" of the other
    ports on it. It's the other type. (I don't know why they call it
    uplink, but it is the reverse of the other ports)

    To be specific. The port/interface orientations have names.
    A computer/router uses MDI, A switch/hub uses MDIX.

    You have no router ports.

    Did you say you connect your 5 port switch to your RT300 using the
    uplink port on your RT300 ?
    Would it fail if you used a regular port on your RT300?

    That would prove that your RT300 is a switch on the outside. So uses
    MDIX like your 5 port switch. And so the uplink port on your RT300
    (Which is MDI. uplink is reverse of other ports ) that allows it to
    connect to another switch - your 5 port switch , whose ports are all
    MDIX.

    If though, you found that it worked regardless of which port you
    connect to which port. Then one or both devices are using autosensing
    of MDI/MDIX. So any "reversing" is done in some kind of clever
    electronics hack or logic.
    , Jun 28, 2008
    #9
  10. You could buy a Wireless router and some Wireless N Adaptors for your PCs,
    and build network that has wired and wireless connections.



    "e.w." <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Hello, I have an issue that I need help resolving for a home LAN I am
    > planning.
    >
    > My current router has only four wired ports, and they are all used. I
    > have the need for more ports, and was looking on Newegg at both
    > switches and hubs. Basically, I would like to know if I can piggyback
    > them together from one of the outputs (searching the net seems to
    > indicate that I can) to the input of the switch (or hub?). Also, the
    > Netgear switches I was looking at with eight ports have only the eight
    > ports labeled 1-8 but there is no "input" port as in an ordinary
    > router, so how would I go about wiring things up? The router I have
    > also handles the FiOS line, so I want to continue to use it.
    >
    > Thanks in advance for any help.
    >
    > Ernie
    Jeff Strickland, Jul 3, 2008
    #10
    1. Advertising

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