High voltage NiMH??

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by peter, Aug 8, 2006.

  1. peter

    peter Guest

    My Fujifilm E550 that I bought 1 year ago comes with two Fujifilm 2300mAh AA
    NiMH batteries.

    If I use other brands AA NiMH, the camera stops working after a very short
    while (e.g. after 5 shots). It behaves like the batteries are low: battery
    low indicator, flash takes forever to recharge, or shut off with the lens
    still extended.

    I bought some new, 2700mAh sanyo NiMH and they fair no better. OK, maybe
    they last 10 shots. Of course I fully charged (actually refreshed) them
    before use.

    I think I found the reason. The batteries that comes with the camera, for
    some reason is 0.05V higher than all my other NiMH batteries.

    At rest (1 day after fully charged, and no load), the fuji batteries are
    1.36V while my 2700mAh are 1.31V.

    Has anyone else tried 3rd party NiMH with the E550? Do they work?
    Any other insight to this problem?
    peter, Aug 8, 2006
    #1
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  2. peter

    ASAAR Guest

    On Tue, 08 Aug 2006 15:26:21 GMT, peter wrote:

    > My Fujifilm E550 that I bought 1 year ago comes with two Fujifilm 2300mAh AA
    > NiMH batteries.
    >
    > If I use other brands AA NiMH, the camera stops working after a very short
    > while (e.g. after 5 shots). It behaves like the batteries are low: battery
    > low indicator, flash takes forever to recharge, or shut off with the lens
    > still extended.
    >
    > I bought some new, 2700mAh sanyo NiMH and they fair no better. OK, maybe
    > they last 10 shots. Of course I fully charged (actually refreshed) them
    > before use.
    >
    > I think I found the reason. The batteries that comes with the camera, for
    > some reason is 0.05V higher than all my other NiMH batteries.
    >
    > At rest (1 day after fully charged, and no load), the fuji batteries are
    > 1.36V while my 2700mAh are 1.31V.


    The camera may behave like the batteries are low, but that can't
    be the cause of the problem. The no-load voltage is close to
    meaningless. Within minutes (or seconds) of being used in the
    camera, the voltage of NiMH batteries will drop to just above 1.2
    volts, and continue to drop fairly linearly until they're nearly
    depleted, at which point the voltage will be about 1.0 volts.

    A possible explanation for what you're seeing is that the E550 may
    be constructed so that the contact some batteries make with the
    camera is marginal to poor, or the Sanyo batteries may slightly
    dirty, also a cause of poor contact. Here's a simple way to test
    this theory.

    However many shots your E550 is able to take using the Fujifilm
    2300 mAh batteries (I assume about 200, but the actual number
    doesn't matter), use the camera until 3/4th of the capacity is used.
    This would be 150 shots if the batteries are good for 200. At this
    point the batteries should be good for another 50 shots, far more
    than you're able to get with the other battery brands, even when
    they're fully charged. So the question is, are the Fujifilm
    batteries providing a higher voltage than fully charged Sanyo
    batteries, even when they're 3/4th depleted? An easy way to find
    out is to remove the batteries from the camera and put them in a
    small 2 cell flashlight (that uses filament bulbs, not LEDs). Note
    how bright the beam is. Remove the batteries and replace with fully
    charged Sanyo batteries. According to your theory, the Sanyo
    batteries will produce a dimmer beam. According to mine, the Sanyos
    will produce a brighter beam.

    For what it's worth, I have a Fuji camera that uses 4 AA
    batteries, and while I've never used Fujifilm batteries in it, I've
    used several other brands of NiMH batteries in it. If the flash is
    used a lot, the batteries are good for about 400 shots. If the
    flash isn't used much, close to 1,000 shots. It's possible for very
    old or damaged batteries to provide 5 to 10 shots when fully
    charged, but as you got the same results using new Sanyo NiMH
    batteries, I'm sure that this can be ruled out as the cause.
    ASAAR, Aug 8, 2006
    #2
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  3. peter

    Ed Ruf Guest

    On Tue, 08 Aug 2006 15:26:21 GMT, in rec.photo.digital "peter"
    <> wrote:

    >My Fujifilm E550 that I bought 1 year ago comes with two Fujifilm 2300mAh AA
    >NiMH batteries.
    >
    >If I use other brands AA NiMH, the camera stops working after a very short
    >while (e.g. after 5 shots). It behaves like the batteries are low: battery
    >low indicator, flash takes forever to recharge, or shut off with the lens
    >still extended.
    >
    >I bought some new, 2700mAh sanyo NiMH and they fair no better. OK, maybe
    >they last 10 shots. Of course I fully charged (actually refreshed) them
    >before use.
    >
    >I think I found the reason. The batteries that comes with the camera, for
    >some reason is 0.05V higher than all my other NiMH batteries.
    >
    >At rest (1 day after fully charged, and no load), the fuji batteries are
    >1.36V while my 2700mAh are 1.31V.
    >
    >Has anyone else tried 3rd party NiMH with the E550? Do they work?
    >Any other insight to this problem?


    There have been many issues with high capacity NiMH batts not
    conforming to IEEE dimensional specs and therefore having poor
    contacts at the terminals. The Nikon add-on battery grips for the
    CP-5700/8700 were notorious for this. I had mine replaced by Nikon
    under warranty. Look specifically how far the positive terminal
    extends above the end of the battery case. This is usually where the
    problem resides.
    --
    Ed Ruf Lifetime AMA# 344007 ()
    http://EdwardGRuf.com
    Ed Ruf, Aug 8, 2006
    #3
  4. peter

    m Ransley Guest

    My sony charger charges NiMh to 1.45v, try a different charger, I dought
    they can go to 1v as another poster states, Nicads are dead at 1.2v,
    potentialy ruined at 1v if it was a high load discharge from a drill. I
    havn`t checked my Nimh when fully discharged but they show 75% depleted
    at 1.2v. I also dont know their state if let sit one day. It may just be
    your charger, Sanyo and Panasonic are the best cells made.
    m Ransley, Aug 8, 2006
    #4
  5. peter

    ASAAR Guest

    On Tue, 8 Aug 2006 13:27:38 -0500, m Ransley wrote:

    > My sony charger charges NiMh to 1.45v, try a different charger, I dought
    > they can go to 1v as another poster states, Nicads are dead at 1.2v,
    > potentialy ruined at 1v if it was a high load discharge from a drill. I
    > havn`t checked my Nimh when fully discharged but they show 75% depleted
    > at 1.2v. I also dont know their state if let sit one day. It may just be
    > your charger, Sanyo and Panasonic are the best cells made.


    You're battery ignorance is off the charts. Please go to any
    battery manufacturer's website (Energizer, RayOVac, Sanyo, etc.) and
    check the voltage discharge curves. Voltage measurements under
    no-load are nearly meaningless. Under anything from a slight to a
    very large load, both NiCads and NiMH batteries are close to being
    fully charged if they show 1.2 volts. Most of the energy that they
    deliver will be over a voltage range (under load) of about 1.25v. to
    slightly more than 1.0 volts. Claiming that either NiCad or NiMH
    batteries would be potentially ruined at 1 volt is total nonsense.
    Energizer's Battery Application Manuals for NiCad and NiMH batteries
    state:

    [From the NICKEL CADMIUM Application Manual]
    > The capacity rating of Energizer nickel-cadmium cells and batteries is based upon output in
    > discharge at the 1 hour rate to an endpoint of 1.0V/cell for all cylindrical cells. If current is
    > withdrawn at faster rates than these standards, capacity is decreased.


    > Except in the case of complete discharge, neither cell condition nor state of charge can be
    > determined by open circuit voltage.


    [From the NICKEL-METAL HYDRIDE Application Manual]
    > Nickel-metal hydride cells are essentially an extension of the proven sealed nickelcadmium
    > cell technology with the substitution of a hydrogen-absorbing negative
    > electrode for the cadmium-based electrode. While this substitution increases the cell
    > electrical capacity (measured in ampere-hours) for a given weight and volume and
    > eliminates the cadmium which raises toxicity concerns, the remainder of the nickelmetal
    > hydride cell is quite similar to the nickel-cadmium product. Many application
    > parameters are little changed between the two cell types, and replacement of nickelcadmium
    > cells in a battery with nickel-metal hydride cells usually involves few significant
    > design issues.


    > A typical discharge profile for a cell discharged at the 5-hour rate (the 0.2C rate) is
    > shown in Figure 9. The initial drop from an open-circuit voltage of approximately 1.4
    > volts to the 1.2 volt plateau occurs rapidly.


    > To prevent the potential for irreversible harm to the cell caused by cell reversal in
    > discharge, removal of the load from the cell(s) prior to total discharge is highly
    > recommended. The typical voltage profile for a cell carried through a total discharge
    > involves a dual plateau voltage profile as indicated in Figure 14. The voltage plateaus
    > are caused by the discharge of first the positive electrode and then the residual capacity
    > in the negative. At the point both electrodes are reversed, substantial hydrogen gas
    > evolution occurs, which may result in cell venting as well as irreversible structural
    > damage to the electrodes. It should be noted that the nickel-metal hydride cell, because
    > it uses a negative electrode that absorbs hydrogen, might actually be somewhat less
    > susceptible to long-term damage from cell reversal than the sealed nickel-cadmium cell.


    [Note: Figure 14 shows that the first voltage plateau is - 0.3 volts
    and the second plateau is reached at about - 1.8 volts. To state
    that they're potentially ruined when reduced to + 1.0 volts (whether
    under moderate or very high loads) is absurd. Most battery chargers
    that have cell discharge circuits place batteries under load until
    each cell reaches 1.0 volts. A small number discharge cells below
    1.0 volts, but it isn't necessary, as by the time the voltage has
    dropped to 1.0 volts there's practically no energy remaining in the
    cell.]

    > The key to avoiding harm to the cell is to terminate the discharge at the point where
    > essentially all capacity has been obtained from the cell, but prior to reaching the second
    > plateau where damage may occur. Two issues complicate the selection of the proper
    > voltage for discharge termination: high-rate discharges and multiple-cell effects in
    > batteries.


    [Note: This indicates that to avoid harming the cell, its discharge
    should be terminated while the cell voltage lies somewhere between a
    high of + 1.0 volts and a low of - 1.8 volts. This is *not* very
    difficult to comply with.]


    > Voltage Cutoff at High Rates
    > Normally discharge cutoff is based on voltage drops with a value of 0.9 volts per cell (75
    > percent of the 1.2 volt per cell nominal mid-point voltage) often being used. As can be
    > seen in Figure 11, 0.9 volts is an excellent value for most medium to long-term
    > discharge applications (<1C).
    ASAAR, Aug 8, 2006
    #5
  6. peter

    m Ransley Guest

    Batteries are charged and peaked under No load, and you find that
    meaningless,. What are your Nicad Nimh pack and singles lives, I have
    Nicads that still work from 86, Ive kept them working from knowing how
    to charge, discharge and care for batteries. Read again, I said
    discharged under heavy load such as a drill can reverse polarity-ruin
    cells at 1v. You need some real world knowledge and experiance running
    and ruining cells to comment, real experiance other than cameras, such
    as real high drain RC equipment, where I can blow a 30a fuse with 7
    cells.
    m Ransley, Aug 9, 2006
    #6
  7. peter

    ASAAR Guest

    On Tue, 8 Aug 2006 21:40:33 -0500, m Ransley wrote:

    >>> Nicads are dead at 1.2v,
    >>> potentialy ruined at 1v if it was a high load discharge from a drill.

    . . .
    > Read again, I said discharged under heavy load such as a drill can reverse
    > polarity-ruin cells at 1v.


    You apparently have no idea what you wrote. *nowhere* did you
    mention reverse polarity damage. And as the Energizer App. Manual
    notes, the serious damage will NOT happen until the cell's voltage
    goes highly negative, reaching the second plateau of - 1.8 volts.
    This is nearly 3 volts below the + 1.0 volts that you claimed could
    potentially damage a cell. The load, whether low or very high will
    NOT damage a cell whose voltage is still positive, and the last time
    I checked, plus 1.0 volts was indeed positive.

    It's certainly possible for a cell in a drill's battery pack to be
    damaged, but for that to happen it will have to be reverse charged
    to a substantial negative voltage. The greater the number of cells
    in the battery pack the greater the possibility that this might
    occur. But you apparently haven't the faintest idea what it takes
    to damage one of the cells.


    > You need some real world knowledge and experiance running
    > and ruining cells to comment, real experiance other than cameras, such
    > as real high drain RC equipment, where I can blow a 30a fuse with 7
    > cells.


    Your ignorance is once again overwhelming. FWIW, many years ago,
    before NiMH batteries were available, and at a time when the highest
    capacity NiCad AA cells were at most 400 to 450 mAh, I was
    assembling and testing moderately high voltage battery packs, where
    the testing was needed so that all ten cells in the pack were
    capacity matched to very close tolerances. These were high capacity
    sintered plate NiCad D cells (4 Ah w/welded solder tabs) and each
    battery pack (*not* used for still cameras) was several times larger
    and weighed several times as much as existing SLRs. DSLRs wouldn't
    exist for several more decades. For you to comment, it would help
    greatly if you remove the foot from your mouth, and then carefully
    ponder each paragraph you type for several minutes before committing
    to it and potentially increasing your quite high ignorance quotient.
    ASAAR, Aug 9, 2006
    #7
  8. peter

    m Ransley Guest

    Asssar Ive been building, using, destroying, packs for 25 years, I know
    how to take care of them, I know how to ruin or use them correctly. Do
    you have any 22 yrs old nicads or packs that can operate commercialy no
    you don`t, well I do. You can believe all the bs you want to, I go on
    experiance.
    m Ransley, Aug 9, 2006
    #8
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