HIGH-DEF FORCED TO DOWN-CONVERT

Discussion in 'DVD Video' started by nospam@nospam.com, Jan 25, 2006.

  1. Guest

    How ingenious the plan is? I pitty those Best Buy Salespersons who
    will need to explain analogue downconvert and then player upconvert to
    potential buyers. As if all these differences between LCD, LCD
    projection, DLP, DLP Led, Plasma, Blue Ray, HD DVD are not enough to
    make Joe Six Packs’ head spin. The end result is that Joe will
    probably just walk out the door with his money in his pocket without
    buying a thing.





    http://www.dvdexclusive.com/article.asp?articleID=2657&categoryID=



    HIGH-DEF FORCED TO DOWN-CONVERT
    In deal reached by eight-company consortium
    By Paul Sweeting 1/23/2006



    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Some buyers of HD DVD and Blu-ray Disc players might not get
    everything they bargained for.

    In a deal reached this week after tense negotiations, the
    eight-company consortium behind the Advanced Access Content System,
    created for use by both high-def formats to prevent unauthorized
    copying, has agreed to require hardware makers to bar some high-def
    signals from being sent from players to displays over analog
    connections, sources said.

    Instead, the affected analog signal must be "down-converted" from the
    full 1920x1080 lines of resolution the players are capable of
    outputting to 960x540 lines--a resolution closer to standard DVDs than
    to high-def. Standard DVDs are typically encoded at 720 horizontal by
    480 vertical lines of resolution.

    The 960x540 standard stipulated in the AACS agreement represents 50%
    higher resolution than standard-def, but only one-quarter the
    resolution of full high-def. Whether a particular movie is
    down-converted will be up to the studio.

    The players will be required to recognize and respond to a digital
    flag, called an Image Constraint Token, inserted into the movie data.

    If the flag is set to "on," the player must down-convert the analog
    signal. If set to "off," the player can pass the full high-def signal
    over the analog connections.

    The studios are divided over whether to require such down-conversion
    and are likely to follow separate policies.

    Hardware makers had generally resisted the requirement, but under the
    new deal, ICT recognition will be included in the AACS license that
    all device makers and playback software vendors will have to sign.

    Estimates differ on how many consumers might be affected by the new
    requirement.

    Many first-generation HDTV sets are equipped only with analog inputs,
    because at the time they were manufactured, there was no agreed-on
    industry standard for copy-protected digital connections between
    devices.

    Now that there is, however, the studios are anxious to move all signal
    traffic to protected digital inputs and outputs.

    Although movies in both Blu-ray and HD DVD will be encrypted while on
    the disc, the digital encryption is lost once the signal is converted
    to analog. Some studios fear that pirates will be able to capture and
    record the unencrypted analog signal, which could then be re-converted
    into a pristine, unprotected digital copy.

    Down-converting the analog signal from high-def to something closer to
    standard-definition would at least prevent pirates from starting with
    the highest-quality image.

    The effect, however, will be to deny those HDTV owners with
    analog-only sets the full capabilities of the new disc formats.

    As part of the deal with hardware makers, the studios will be required
    to disclose on a movie's packaging whether the image will be
    down-converted.

    Supporters of Image Constraint argue that few consumers will be able
    to tell the difference between down-converted analog and high-def.

    Many so-called HDTV sets are actually capable of displaying only 720
    lines of resolution, regardless of the source, so viewers would not be
    getting full high-def anyway, even over digital connections.

    Once the analog image is down-sampled to 540 lines, moreover, players
    will be permitted to use a signal processor to "up-convert" it to 720
    or 1,080 lines.

    Although such up-conversion does not restore the detail lost through
    down-sampling, it does improve overall picture sharpness.

    No studio would comment on whether it plans to take advantage of the
    Image Constraint option.

    Within the AACS consortium, however, Warner Home Video was
    consistently the strongest proponent of the idea, according to sources
    familiar with the negotiations.

    20th Century Fox Home Entertainment is not a member of AACS, but has
    argued against the idea in other forums.

    AACS-member Disney, as well as non-members NBC Universal and
    Paramount, are likely to take advantage of the option, according to
    sources with knowledge of the studios' thinking.

    Although Sony is a member of AACS, where it sometimes clashed with
    Warner on the issue, sources said it is still unclear whether Sony
    Pictures Home Entertainment will take advantage of the ICT option now
    that it is in place.
    , Jan 25, 2006
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. wrote:

    >Supporters of Image Constraint argue that few consumers will be able
    >to tell the difference between down-converted analog and high-def.


    Then what is the freakin' purpose of HD-DVD or Blu-Ray in the first place?
    Kimba W. Lion, Jan 25, 2006
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. kaydigi Guest

    "Kimba W. Lion" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > wrote:
    >
    >>Supporters of Image Constraint argue that few consumers will be able
    >>to tell the difference between down-converted analog and high-def.

    >
    > Then what is the freakin' purpose of HD-DVD or Blu-Ray in the first place?
    >


    I don't think the OP is talking about disc formats. Dish Network and Direct
    TV are now down rezzing their HD content. People who hate blackbars and want
    full screen probably wont see the loss in quality.
    kaydigi, Jan 25, 2006
    #3
  4. Guest

    On Tue, 24 Jan 2006 22:05:20 -0500, Kimba W. Lion <>
    wrote:

    > wrote:
    >
    >>Supporters of Image Constraint argue that few consumers will be able
    >>to tell the difference between down-converted analog and high-def.

    >
    >Then what is the freakin' purpose of HD-DVD or Blu-Ray in the first place?


    Most people won't be impressed with the difference between HD/BR and
    SD DVDs. Now you tell me they are gonna be impressed with the
    difference between down-converted analogue and high-def? HD DVD is
    shooting themselves in the foot.
    , Jan 25, 2006
    #4
  5. Roy L. Fuchs Guest

    On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 01:49:50 GMT, Gave us:

    >How ingenious the plan is? I pitty those Best Buy Salespersons who
    >will need to explain analogue downconvert and then player upconvert to
    >potential buyers. As if all these differences between LCD, LCD
    >projection, DLP, DLP Led, Plasma, Blue Ray, HD DVD are not enough to
    >make Joe Six Packs? head spin. The end result is that Joe will
    >probably just walk out the door with his money in his pocket without
    >buying a thing.


    Why is it that top posting retards always act like they know the
    world, but always seem to know very little... particularly about what
    Joe Six Pack would or would not do with his money?
    Roy L. Fuchs, Jan 25, 2006
    #5
  6. TB Guest

    "Roy L. Fuchs" whined:

    (snip)
    >
    > Why is it that top posting retards always act like they know the
    > world, but always seem to know very little... particularly about what
    > Joe Six Pack would or would not do with his money?


    Why do you always bitch and moan like a teenaged girl on her first period?

    T.B.
    TB, Jan 25, 2006
    #6
  7. Goro Guest

    wrote:
    > How ingenious the plan is? I pitty those Best Buy Salespersons who
    > will need to explain analogue downconvert and then player upconvert to
    > potential buyers. As if all these differences between LCD, LCD
    > projection, DLP, DLP Led, Plasma, Blue Ray, HD DVD are not enough to
    > make Joe Six Packs?head spin. The end result is that Joe will
    > probably just walk out the door with his money in his pocket without
    > buying a thing.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > http://www.dvdexclusive.com/article.asp?articleID=2657&categoryID=
    >
    >
    >
    > HIGH-DEF FORCED TO DOWN-CONVERT
    > In deal reached by eight-company consortium
    > By Paul Sweeting 1/23/2006
    >
    >
    >
    > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    >
    > Some buyers of HD DVD and Blu-ray Disc players might not get
    > everything they bargained for.
    >
    > In a deal reached this week after tense negotiations, the
    > eight-company consortium behind the Advanced Access Content System,
    > created for use by both high-def formats to prevent unauthorized
    > copying, has agreed to require hardware makers to bar some high-def
    > signals from being sent from players to displays over analog
    > connections, sources said.
    >
    > Instead, the affected analog signal must be "down-converted" from the
    > full 1920x1080 lines of resolution the players are capable of
    > outputting to 960x540 lines--a resolution closer to standard DVDs than
    > to high-def. Standard DVDs are typically encoded at 720 horizontal by
    > 480 vertical lines of resolution.
    >


    Is this new? The idea that HD content would only be available via HDCP
    (HDMI or DVI with HDCP, but not DVI w/o HDCP and certainly not with
    analog) was established a long time ago. Anyone with an older HD TV is
    totally screwed as they have (at best) DVI w/o HDCP, but i think all
    new HDTVs have HDMI.

    So the ones getting screwed were the early-EARLY adopters who bought
    HDTVs too soon. Those of us who bought 720p HDTVs are getting
    marginally screwed as BR is outputting 1080p. Those that are buing
    1080p HDTVs right now are getting slightly less screwed as they don't
    have 1080p INPUTS.

    But Joe Sixpack prolly doesn't have an HDTV. OR if he does, he's one
    of those 50% who are watching SD content and convinced that it's HD...
    and still "loving it."

    In the end, what is going to sell BR/HDDVD to the masses will not be
    picture quality, it will be added value.

    for eg.
    * HD-discs could be priced substantially below DVD prices, which could
    be a combination of raising DVD prices and low HD price points. Could
    make DVD rental priced for a window and imitate the VHS-DVD siutation,
    which encouraged DVD adoption.

    * HD-discs available earlier than DVD. WB is saying 3weeks after
    theatrical with DVD window remainigng same. IIRC, in the earlier days
    of DVD, DVDs weren't availabel ont he same day as VHS.

    * Convenience. More content available per single disc (and cheaper).


    * Or something else as the Killer App. Of the above, none rate as
    Killer App over current DVD (including picture quality). normally for
    something to become adopted, there has to be something unpredicted to
    occur and become adopted. for DVD, it may have been DeCSS adn the ease
    of replication/piracy. What will it be for BR/HDDVD?

    -goro-
    Goro, Jan 25, 2006
    #7
  8. On 25 Jan 2006 06:00:59 -0800, "Goro" <> wrote:

    >Or something else as the Killer App. ...for DVD, it may have been DeCSS adn the ease
    >of replication/piracy.


    Are you an industry puppet or something? The vast majority of people don't
    pirate movies and don't buy pirated movies. "Little" things like prices,
    convenience, and durability were the killer points for DVD.
    Kimba W. Lion, Jan 25, 2006
    #8
  9. Goro Guest

    Kimba W. Lion wrote:
    > On 25 Jan 2006 06:00:59 -0800, "Goro" <> wrote:
    >
    > >Or something else as the Killer App. ...for DVD, it may have been DeCSS adn the ease
    > >of replication/piracy.

    >
    > Are you an industry puppet or something? The vast majority of people don't
    > pirate movies and don't buy pirated movies. "Little" things like prices,
    > convenience, and durability were the killer points for DVD.


    "Industry puppet"???

    I just made a point that ease of copying DVDs may have played a role
    (that could have been as much as major) in DVDs huge adoption. Buying
    pirated movies doesn't really relate. It's the more innocuous stuff
    that may have had a large impact. Eg., I have a collection of cool
    movies and i burn a copy of something for you. You thank me, but say
    that I don't have a DVD player. The fact that i could show you cool
    things, etc., may be another encouragement to buy a dvd player.

    The early adopters (or in the past 5 yrs, they may be the 2nd/3rd gen
    of adopters) are a number of the same people that would be interested
    enough to learn about how to ripp and burn dvds. It's not a stretch to
    think that a number of these people helped influence other people to
    buy into dvd.

    And i believe i made the same poitns about price and convenience in the
    points which you snipped.

    What will propel HD forward likely won't be PQ, imho.

    -goro-
    Goro, Jan 25, 2006
    #9
  10. Guest Guest

    "Kimba W. Lion" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > wrote:
    >
    >>Supporters of Image Constraint argue that few consumers will be able
    >>to tell the difference between down-converted analog and high-def.

    >
    > Then what is the freakin' purpose of HD-DVD or Blu-Ray in the first place?


    It's sounding worse and worse all the time. Every news release makes the
    high-def issue less attractive. Indeed, it seems that the major subject
    being discussed is the various ways of keeping the public from doing
    something or other. Well I'm convinced. To hell with it. Maybe one day
    I'll be interested, but as of this moment, my sole interest in HD is in data
    storage.
    Guest, Jan 25, 2006
    #10
  11. unclejr Guest

    Goro wrote:
    > What will propel HD forward likely won't be PQ, imho.


    It'll be the even-more-annoying, new MENUS, dambit! <gp>

    -Junior
    unclejr, Jan 25, 2006
    #11
  12. Dick Sidbury Guest

    In article <>,
    "Goro" <> wrote:


    ....snip....


    > In the end, what is going to sell BR/HDDVD to the masses will not be
    > picture quality, it will be added value.
    >
    > for eg.
    > * HD-discs could be priced substantially below DVD prices, which could
    > be a combination of raising DVD prices and low HD price points. Could
    > make DVD rental priced for a window and imitate the VHS-DVD siutation,
    > which encouraged DVD adoption.
    >


    I don't see this at all. Raising the price of DVDs would have to be
    industry wide. And I think that some distributors would not cooperate
    and their DVD's would sell better. I also don't see a low price for HD
    disks to start.

    > * HD-discs available earlier than DVD. WB is saying 3weeks after
    > theatrical with DVD window remainigng same. IIRC, in the earlier days
    > of DVD, DVDs weren't availabel ont he same day as VHS.
    >


    This dog wont hunt. If there is widespread release of HD movies months
    before the DVD then everyone who doesn't have HD will have access to
    DivX copies within hours and lots of people will take advantage until
    the DVDs are released. And some of them may forget to buy the DVD. I
    can't imagine that the studios would be this stupid. Well actually I
    can.

    > * Convenience. More content available per single disc (and cheaper).
    >


    What extra content could they add? I admit that it would be a good
    thing for season sets of TV shows, but that seems to have been
    straightened out with recent packaging.


    dick
    Dick Sidbury, Jan 25, 2006
    #12
  13. Goro Guest

    unclejr wrote:
    > Goro wrote:
    > > What will propel HD forward likely won't be PQ, imho.

    >
    > It'll be the even-more-annoying, new MENUS, dambit! <gp>
    >
    > -Junior


    But it's JAVA based! at least it's not FLASH-based... (or that new
    Sparkle by Micro$oft)

    -goro-
    Goro, Jan 26, 2006
    #13
  14. Mark Jones Guest

    wrote:
    > How ingenious the plan is? I pitty those Best Buy Salespersons who
    > will need to explain analogue downconvert and then player upconvert to
    > potential buyers. As if all these differences between LCD, LCD
    > projection, DLP, DLP Led, Plasma, Blue Ray, HD DVD are not enough to
    > make Joe Six Packs?head spin. The end result is that Joe will
    > probably just walk out the door with his money in his pocket without
    > buying a thing.

    I won't buy a disk that does this. I am connected to my 65 inch HDTV
    using the RGB component connections. I have had this TV long enough
    that it isn't equipped with all of the digital connections.

    I tend to buy quite a few DVDs, but I guess these guys aren't interested
    in my money any more.
    Mark Jones, Jan 27, 2006
    #14
  15. Mark Jones Guest

    Kimba W. Lion wrote:
    > wrote:
    >
    >> Supporters of Image Constraint argue that few consumers will be able
    >> to tell the difference between down-converted analog and high-def.

    >
    > Then what is the freakin' purpose of HD-DVD or Blu-Ray in the first
    > place?


    Good question.

    It would be nice if some of the business executives would explain
    just how many different steps they are willing to take to see that
    the new systems see very few buyers.
    Mark Jones, Jan 27, 2006
    #15
  16. Steve K. Guest

    Mark Jones wrote:
    > wrote:
    >> How ingenious the plan is? I pitty those Best Buy Salespersons who
    >> will need to explain analogue downconvert and then player upconvert to
    >> potential buyers. As if all these differences between LCD, LCD
    >> projection, DLP, DLP Led, Plasma, Blue Ray, HD DVD are not enough to
    >> make Joe Six Packs?head spin. The end result is that Joe will
    >> probably just walk out the door with his money in his pocket without
    >> buying a thing.

    > I won't buy a disk that does this. I am connected to my 65 inch HDTV
    > using the RGB component connections. I have had this TV long enough
    > that it isn't equipped with all of the digital connections.
    >
    > I tend to buy quite a few DVDs, but I guess these guys aren't interested
    > in my money any more.
    >
    >

    I'm with 'ya on that. Besides, if the signal sent through component
    cables is analog, then by definition you cannot make a perfect bit for
    bit copy of it. If that is the case, then we have a right to "Fair use"
    of the signal since it will degrade naturally. There should be nothing
    to down convert the signal. By the industry forcing the down convert
    the are making perfectly good equipment not perform to it's fullest
    capacity. This is ridiculous. When S-Video came out, did it change the
    way composite worked? When component came out, did it change the way
    S-Video worked? There's really no reason that HDMI DRM needs to disable
    or down convert an analog HD signal. This is the first time a newer
    technology is limiting existing technology with these connectors. It's
    insane. I'll pass on the whole mess. I'm sticking with DVD for now.

    I hope the HD media war is a costly one and that both formats die and
    all the big players lose billions. I'll guarantee there will be hacks
    on computers that will get around and DRM and instantly grant bit for
    bit copies. I'm sure we'll see players from China that come out that
    don't do the down convert as well.
    Steve K., Jan 29, 2006
    #16
  17. Guest

    On Sun, 29 Jan 2006 05:22:35 GMT, "Steve K." <>
    wrote:


    >I hope the HD media war is a costly one and that both formats die and
    >all the big players lose billions. I'll guarantee there will be hacks
    >on computers that will get around and DRM and instantly grant bit for
    >bit copies. I'm sure we'll see players from China that come out that
    >don't do the down convert as well.


    My sentiment exactly. After all the hooplas on Regional DVDs, Chinese
    player can play them all in just a few years. And even if Chinese
    players can't play them all, you just need to spend another $29.99 to
    pick up another region play to play that disc.

    Obviously, Sony and the big dogs have now learned their lessons, I
    wonder what they could do to bar Chinese makers making HD/BR players.
    , Jan 29, 2006
    #17
  18. Goro Guest

    Steve K. wrote:
    > Mark Jones wrote:
    > > wrote:
    > >> How ingenious the plan is? I pitty those Best Buy Salespersons who
    > >> will need to explain analogue downconvert and then player upconvert to
    > >> potential buyers. As if all these differences between LCD, LCD
    > >> projection, DLP, DLP Led, Plasma, Blue Ray, HD DVD are not enough to
    > >> make Joe Six Packs?head spin. The end result is that Joe will
    > >> probably just walk out the door with his money in his pocket without
    > >> buying a thing.

    > > I won't buy a disk that does this. I am connected to my 65 inch HDTV
    > > using the RGB component connections. I have had this TV long enough
    > > that it isn't equipped with all of the digital connections.
    > >
    > > I tend to buy quite a few DVDs, but I guess these guys aren't interested
    > > in my money any more.
    > >
    > >

    > I'm with 'ya on that. Besides, if the signal sent through component
    > cables is analog, then by definition you cannot make a perfect bit for
    > bit copy of it. If that is the case, then we have a right to "Fair use"
    > of the signal since it will degrade naturally. There should be nothing
    > to down convert the signal. By the industry forcing the down convert
    > the are making perfectly good equipment not perform to it's fullest
    > capacity. This is ridiculous. When S-Video came out, did it change the
    > way composite worked? When component came out, did it change the way
    > S-Video worked? There's really no reason that HDMI DRM needs to disable
    > or down convert an analog HD signal. This is the first time a newer
    > technology is limiting existing technology with these connectors. It's
    > insane. I'll pass on the whole mess. I'm sticking with DVD for now.
    >
    > I hope the HD media war is a costly one and that both formats die and
    > all the big players lose billions. I'll guarantee there will be hacks
    > on computers that will get around and DRM and instantly grant bit for
    > bit copies. I'm sure we'll see players from China that come out that
    > don't do the down convert as well.


    Japan, probably. There's apparently a law in Japan that says you can't
    degrade the signal at all. And that's in place until 2009 or so.

    -goro-
    Goro, Jan 29, 2006
    #18
    1. Advertising

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

It takes just 2 minutes to sign up (and it's free!). Just click the sign up button to choose a username and then you can ask your own questions on the forum.
Similar Threads
  1. Invalid Address

    Forced video AND forced audio from Universal

    Invalid Address, Jan 8, 2004, in forum: DVD Video
    Replies:
    32
    Views:
    2,192
    John Savard
    Jan 18, 2004
  2. Allan
    Replies:
    2
    Views:
    384
  3. RR

    High Def DVD?

    RR, Oct 1, 2004, in forum: DVD Video
    Replies:
    7
    Views:
    558
    Trevor S
    Oct 3, 2004
  4. Allan
    Replies:
    1
    Views:
    632
    RichA
    May 10, 2005
  5. Allan

    High Def Brings High Sales Hopes.

    Allan, Aug 2, 2005, in forum: DVD Video
    Replies:
    59
    Views:
    1,661
    Kimba W. Lion
    Aug 8, 2005
Loading...

Share This Page