HDTV WONDER?? Purchasing a outdoor UHF antenna.

Discussion in 'DVD Video' started by J Poy, Dec 30, 2005.

  1. J Poy

    J Poy Guest

    Greetings,

    I would like to assemble a HD PVR possibly using this card with my
    computer. I just purchased a LG plasma HD TV it has a it's own HD tuner
    plus NTSC tuner which I want to use to capture OTA signals.

    I have heard this ATI card is having it's problems. Has anyone have personal
    experience with it and is a software problem?

    I heard of the Fusion HDTV 5 Gold is a good tuner, but I can't locate one
    hear in Ontario.

    I would also like to purchase a UHF outdoor antenna (CHANNEL MASTER OR OTHER
    MANUFACTURES) anyone know where I can get one in Toronto or Mississauga?

    I'm trying to avoided the costs associated of having to pay the monthly bill
    for the HD signal to the cable company.

    Any help or recommendations would be appreciated.

    Thanks!

    Newbi

    Wishing you all HAPPY NEW YEAR!
    J Poy, Dec 30, 2005
    #1
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  2. J Poy

    Roy L. Fuchs Guest

    On Thu, 29 Dec 2005 22:30:01 -0500, "J Poy" <> Gave
    us:

    >Greetings,
    >
    >I would like to assemble a HD PVR possibly using this card with my
    >computer. I just purchased a LG plasma HD TV it has a it's own HD tuner
    >plus NTSC tuner which I want to use to capture OTA signals.
    >
    >I have heard this ATI card is having it's problems. Has anyone have personal
    >experience with it and is a software problem?
    >
    >I heard of the Fusion HDTV 5 Gold is a good tuner, but I can't locate one
    >hear in Ontario.
    >
    >I would also like to purchase a UHF outdoor antenna (CHANNEL MASTER OR OTHER
    >MANUFACTURES) anyone know where I can get one in Toronto or Mississauga?
    >
    >I'm trying to avoided the costs associated of having to pay the monthly bill
    >for the HD signal to the cable company.
    >
    >Any help or recommendations would be appreciated.
    >
    >Thanks!
    >
    >Newbi
    >
    >Wishing you all HAPPY NEW YEAR!
    >



    You want an antenna with a preamplifier. 12 dB gain is a good
    number. 6 or 9 would be a good minimum amplification factor.
    Roy L. Fuchs, Dec 30, 2005
    #2
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  3. J Poy

    Guest Guest


    >
    >
    > You want an antenna with a preamplifier. 12 dB gain is a good
    > number. 6 or 9 would be a good minimum amplification factor.


    There is no rule that says that you need a preamp. It depends on the
    distance
    between the antenna and your receiver. Reception is all about signal to
    noise
    ratio. If the preamp is noisier than the front end in your receiver
    (likely) then
    your reception will suffer.
    Guest, Dec 30, 2005
    #3
  4. J Poy

    Roy L. Fuchs Guest

    On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 07:24:40 -0800, <r> Gave us:

    >
    >>
    >>
    >> You want an antenna with a preamplifier. 12 dB gain is a good
    >> number. 6 or 9 would be a good minimum amplification factor.

    >
    >There is no rule that says that you need a preamp.



    Yes, however, having one and not needing one is far better than
    needing one, and not having one.

    > It depends on the
    >distance
    >between the antenna and your receiver.


    No... Really?

    > Reception is all about signal to
    >noise
    >ratio.


    Nope. reception is all about signal strength. Also, in the digital
    realm, noise is not the problem. Bit error rate is.

    > If the preamp is noisier than the front end in your receiver
    >(likely) then
    >your reception will suffer.


    Doesn't sound like a pre-amplifier that I would want. D'oh!

    I want one that functions. I don't know what dollar store crap you
    have been looking at.
    Roy L. Fuchs, Dec 30, 2005
    #4
  5. Roy L. Fuchs wrote:

    >
    > Nope. reception is all about signal strength. Also, in the digital
    > realm, noise is not the problem. Bit error rate is.
    >


    However, there is a direct relation. VEry direct.


    >
    >> If the preamp is noisier than the front end in your receiver
    >>(likely) then
    >>your reception will suffer.

    >
    >
    > Doesn't sound like a pre-amplifier that I would want. D'oh!
    >
    > I want one that functions. I don't know what dollar store crap you
    > have been looking at.



    Even the cheapest preamp will have a better noise figure than
    almost all receivers. Whether that will be rendered immaterial
    by overload is a very different matter .... receivers are usually
    better than preamps in that area.

    Doug McDonald
    Doug McDonald, Dec 30, 2005
    #5
  6. J Poy

    Roy L. Fuchs Guest

    On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 13:23:26 -0600, Doug McDonald
    <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu> Gave us:

    >Roy L. Fuchs wrote:
    >
    >>
    >> Nope. reception is all about signal strength. Also, in the digital
    >> realm, noise is not the problem. Bit error rate is.
    >>

    >
    >However, there is a direct relation. VEry direct.
    >
    >
    >>
    >>> If the preamp is noisier than the front end in your receiver
    >>>(likely) then
    >>>your reception will suffer.

    >>
    >>
    >> Doesn't sound like a pre-amplifier that I would want. D'oh!
    >>
    >> I want one that functions. I don't know what dollar store crap you
    >> have been looking at.

    >
    >
    >Even the cheapest preamp will have a better noise figure than
    >almost all receivers. Whether that will be rendered immaterial
    >by overload is a very different matter .... receivers are usually
    >better than preamps in that area.
    >
    >Doug McDonald



    Which is why most amplified antennas have a gain control, and even
    an on/off/bypass switch.
    Roy L. Fuchs, Dec 30, 2005
    #6
  7. J Poy wrote:
    > Greetings,
    >
    > I would like to assemble a HD PVR possibly using this card with my
    > computer. I just purchased a LG plasma HD TV it has a it's own HD tuner
    > plus NTSC tuner which I want to use to capture OTA signals.
    >
    > I have heard this ATI card is having it's problems. Has anyone have personal
    > experience with it and is a software problem?
    >
    > I heard of the Fusion HDTV 5 Gold is a good tuner, but I can't locate one
    > hear in Ontario.
    >
    > I would also like to purchase a UHF outdoor antenna (CHANNEL MASTER OR OTHER
    > MANUFACTURES) anyone know where I can get one in Toronto or Mississauga?
    >
    > I'm trying to avoided the costs associated of having to pay the monthly bill
    > for the HD signal to the cable company.
    >
    > Any help or recommendations would be appreciated.


    No expierence with any HDTV product but I do use an ATI-TVwonder card,
    works great, installation was straight forward and performance has been
    "As Advertised" It currently records a show for a friend, I deliver on
    a different HD product (Hard Drive) every couple of weeks.

    Hauppauge also makes a good card from what I'm told (Win-tv) Do not know
    if they make an HDTV product... Their new line should come with some
    very familure feeling software in it's box.

    Now: The antenna... Channel Master is a very good antenna company. You
    should find a dealer listed in your local phone directory, That is
    about all I can say.. You can do the net search but I'd find a local
    dealer, I'd also go to multiple dealers.

    I used their best antenna atop a 100' tower at my parents house, Which
    according to the Television coverage maps should NOT have been able to
    watch anything but snow (And this time of year we could see all the snow
    we wanted and then some without the need for a tv :) )

    We often watched shows broadcast from over 100 miles away (over
    140KM)and got good reception as well.

    Of course... Took two of us to erect the tower and put the antenna up
    there, The system used a head end amplifier, coax feed and a
    distributation system so we could watch at a number of different places
    in the house,,, very professional instalation... I should know.. I did it.

    --
    John in Detroit E-Dress is smoked, try: w a 8 y x m at a r r l dot n e t
    John in Detroit, Dec 31, 2005
    #7
  8. Roy L. Fuchs wrote:
    > On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 07:24:40 -0800, <r> Gave us:
    >
    >
    >>>
    >>> You want an antenna with a preamplifier. 12 dB gain is a good
    >>>number. 6 or 9 would be a good minimum amplification factor.

    >>
    >>There is no rule that says that you need a preamp.

    >
    >
    >
    > Yes, however, having one and not needing one is far better than
    > needing one, and not having one.



    Actually,,, With Channel Master's top end antennas that is not, entierly
    , true.

    You see, the top end antennas have a compartment at the head (antenna)
    end, this compartment contains either the proper matching balun (300 or
    75 ohm) or a pre-ampolifier (and CM's pre-amps are very good, at least
    in my expierence, which I'll admit is some decades old)

    So, if you are willing to climb up the tower (I was, even if I do suffer
    from acrophobia, let me tell you, 100 feet up, even with a safety belt,
    was not exactly fun) to pop in the head end unit, you can put the
    antenna up, make sure you put a junction or other device where you are
    going to put the power adapter (In my case in the basement), next to the
    power mains) you can always after-instalation climb up and make the
    change.

    now... Where I'm at now (Detroit) I'm only a few miles from most of the
    major television transmitters... If I put a pre-amp in I have to be very
    careful to avoid front end overload (That is, I can use one, but only if
    there is a distrubution block downstream, at least a 4-way splitter or
    don't use a pre-amp)

    Thus, I have 2 antennas on this house, both split two ways
    --
    John in Detroit E-Dress is smoked, try: w a 8 y x m at a r r l dot n e t
    John in Detroit, Dec 31, 2005
    #8
  9. J Poy

    Roy L. Fuchs Guest

    On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 01:33:35 GMT, John in Detroit <>
    Gave us:

    >You see, the top end antennas have a compartment at the head (antenna)
    >end, this compartment contains either the proper matching balun (300 or
    >75 ohm) or a pre-ampolifier (and CM's pre-amps are very good, at least
    >in my expierence, which I'll admit is some decades old)



    The entire point was and still is that a preamplified antenna is
    better than not having one. PARTICULARLY in the digital realm as
    ghost signals, reflections, etc. are not a problem as they are in
    analog reception.
    Roy L. Fuchs, Dec 31, 2005
    #9
  10. J Poy

    Pseud O. Nym Guest

    Roy L. Fuchs <> wrote in
    news::

    >
    > The entire point was and still is that a preamplified antenna is
    > better than not having one. PARTICULARLY in the digital realm as
    > ghost signals, reflections, etc. are not a problem as they are in
    > analog reception.
    >


    +++++++++++++

    It depends on the individual situation and circumstances. A digital
    signal that is too strong can be just as problematic as a signal that is
    not strong enough. If the signal is too weak a pre-amp can help, but
    remember that the pre-amp will amplify any spontaneous noise along with
    the desired signal. If the signal is too strong an attenuator can help
    but remember that the attenuator will weaken the desired signal along
    with the ever-present noise.

    The goal is to have a signal that is strong enough to provide the desired
    signal to the antenna input but not so strong as to overload it.

    When I first installed an 802.11g wireless connection on my computer, I
    spent the first few days cursing it and throwing objects at my computer.
    It had intermittent lockups and crashes requiring many "power
    off/reboots", I re-read the instructions many times over to no avail. I
    began to think that I had gotten a defective part .... either the
    wireless router itself or the USB wireless device that communicates with
    it. I tried re-positioning both devices many times. It would work great
    for a few hours and then it would lock up.

    I finally came to the conclusion that my signal might be too strong. When
    I installed the wireless router, I had shortened the coaxial cable by
    about 75 feet and moved my cable modem back to the corner of the house
    nearest the point where the cable service entered. Just to check out my
    theory, I coupled in about 75 feet of extra coax between the cable
    service entry point and the cable modem to serve as an attenuator. I
    rolled the excess cable into a neat roll. An tiny attenuator would have
    probably worked as well but I did not have one handy. I have not had a
    single problem since. It has worked to absolute perfection.

    To summarize: I have been a liscensed Ham Radio Operator since 1958 and I
    had a 37 year career as a computer engineer with IBM Corp. I say that
    sometimes a preamp will help but there are times when a preamp will make
    matters worse.

    PON
    Pseud O. Nym, Dec 31, 2005
    #10
  11. J Poy

    Thomas Young Guest

    Try www.solidsignal.com and look for a channel master 4228. I'm a TV
    station technician and that's what I use. It works great on UHF and also on
    CH 7-13. Should set you back about $50. The ATI card does not impress me.
    I have one and consider it junk.
    "J Poy" <> wrote in message
    news:UQ1tf.2149$...
    > Greetings,
    >
    > I would like to assemble a HD PVR possibly using this card with my
    > computer. I just purchased a LG plasma HD TV it has a it's own HD tuner
    > plus NTSC tuner which I want to use to capture OTA signals.
    >
    > I have heard this ATI card is having it's problems. Has anyone have
    > personal experience with it and is a software problem?
    >
    > I heard of the Fusion HDTV 5 Gold is a good tuner, but I can't locate one
    > hear in Ontario.
    >
    > I would also like to purchase a UHF outdoor antenna (CHANNEL MASTER OR
    > OTHER MANUFACTURES) anyone know where I can get one in Toronto or
    > Mississauga?
    >
    > I'm trying to avoided the costs associated of having to pay the monthly
    > bill for the HD signal to the cable company.
    >
    > Any help or recommendations would be appreciated.
    >
    > Thanks!
    >
    > Newbi
    >
    > Wishing you all HAPPY NEW YEAR!
    >
    Thomas Young, Dec 31, 2005
    #11
  12. J Poy

    Roy L. Fuchs Guest

    On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 17:52:46 GMT, "Pseud O. Nym"
    <> Gave us:

    >
    >It depends on the individual situation and circumstances.


    First off, idiot. This is Usenet, so do not change the follow ups to
    email, retard.

    > A digital
    >signal that is too strong can be just as problematic as a signal that is
    >not strong enough. If the signal is too weak a pre-amp can help, but
    >remember that the pre-amp will amplify any spontaneous noise along with
    >the desired signal.


    Which, in a digital realm, gets rejected.

    > If the signal is too strong an attenuator can help
    >but remember that the attenuator will weaken the desired signal along
    >with the ever-present noise.


    Which, in a digital system, gets rejected. When is this going to
    sink in, dude?

    >The goal is to have a signal that is strong enough to provide the desired
    >signal to the antenna input but not so strong as to overload it.


    My gain dial works from around 40% all the way up to the full 100%
    of the 12dB gain it is capable of.

    >
    >When I first installed an 802.11g wireless connection on my computer, I
    >spent the first few days cursing it and throwing objects at my computer.


    You are talking apples and oranges now.

    >It had intermittent lockups and crashes requiring many "power
    >off/reboots", I re-read the instructions many times over to no avail.


    I am not surprised. You can't even get Usenet right.

    > I began to think that I had gotten a defective part .... either the
    >wireless router itself or the USB wireless device that communicates with
    >it. I tried re-positioning both devices many times. It would work great
    >for a few hours and then it would lock up.


    Oh well. Should have bought a name brand then, I would guess.

    >I finally came to the conclusion that my signal might be too strong. When
    >I installed the wireless router, I had shortened the coaxial cable by
    >about 75 feet and moved my cable modem back to the corner of the house
    >nearest the point where the cable service entered.


    You probably don't know how to cut a simple F-fitting.

    > Just to check out my
    >theory, I coupled in about 75 feet of extra coax between the cable
    >service entry point and the cable modem to serve as an attenuator.


    You are lost. Your cable company is the only folks that can test
    the power of their feed. You more likely had problems with your
    terminations.

    > I rolled the excess cable into a neat roll. An tiny attenuator would have
    >probably worked as well but I did not have one handy.


    You ain't real bright. The cable modem requires a strong signal or
    it will fail.

    > I have not had a
    >single problem since. It has worked to absolute perfection.


    Again. I suspect the cable you were using.

    >To summarize: I have been a liscensed Ham Radio Operator since 1958 and I
    >had a 37 year career as a computer engineer with IBM Corp.


    It apparently matters not, eh?

    > I say that
    >sometimes a preamp will help but there are times when a preamp will make
    >matters worse.


    I say that you are talking about over the air signals and piped
    signals. Again... apples and oranges. Nothing you stated
    definitively proved that you had too strong a signal in the coax. How
    can you have such flawed logic?
    Roy L. Fuchs, Dec 31, 2005
    #12
  13. Roy L. Fuchs wrote:

    >
    > The entire point was and still is that a preamplified antenna is
    > better than not having one. PARTICULARLY in the digital realm as
    > ghost signals, reflections, etc. are not a problem as they are in
    > analog reception.



    And my points were 1: Tain't necessarily so, (A pre-amplified antenna
    where I live for example would do more harm than good if feeding a
    single TV) and 2: It's easy to upgrade top end antennas

    --
    John in Detroit E-Dress is smoked, try: w a 8 y x m at a r r l dot n e t
    John in Detroit, Dec 31, 2005
    #13
  14. J Poy

    G-squared Guest

    John in Detroit wrote:
    > Roy L. Fuchs wrote:
    >
    > >
    > > The entire point was and still is that a preamplified antenna is
    > > better than not having one. PARTICULARLY in the digital realm as
    > > ghost signals, reflections, etc. are not a problem as they are in
    > > analog reception.

    >
    >
    > And my points were 1: Tain't necessarily so, (A pre-amplified antenna
    > where I live for example would do more harm than good if feeding a
    > single TV) and 2: It's easy to upgrade top end antennas
    >


    John, I'm with you on the preamps/antennas thing. Bad ones aren't worth
    the bother

    As for Roy and his blanket statements -- where do you start? Your
    digital is converted to ANALOG to transmit it. I recommend reading

    http://www.broadcast.net/~sbe1/8vsb/8vsb.htm

    To make silly statements about the digital realm assumes you can
    recover the analog to GET to the digital realm. ALL storage and
    transmission devices ARE analog in nature. Internal to any device you
    can have simple logic levels but to go to the outside world, even
    within the same building, the digital becomes analog.Look at the 'eye'
    patterns of a cd/dvd player or an SD data stream and you'll see what I
    mean. To transmit it to your house and recover it is pretty amazing
    given all the crap that can happen to the signal.

    Think some about the 10.7 million tokens/second to stuff nearly 20
    megabits into 6 MHz of bandwidth, the 1 of 8 power levels but those
    levels are subject to reflections, attenuations and then add impulse
    noises and it STILL works. WOW.

    BTW ghosts (multipath) are a BIGGER problem in digital than analog. If
    you get a 'minor' 93 nS delay/addition can trash an 8VSB stream (before
    the equalizer) and only put a little bit of ringing into the analog
    signal. Look at the research into the 'generation 5' decoder which is
    basically a very elaborate receiver equalizer both in time and
    frequency.

    And THEN be RUDE about it. Oh well......

    End of rant and BEFORE the new year -- so Happy New Year!
    GG
    G-squared, Jan 1, 2006
    #14
  15. J Poy

    Allan Guest

    On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 20:42:11 GMT, Roy L. Fuchs
    <> wrote:

    >On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 17:52:46 GMT, "Pseud O. Nym"
    ><> Gave us:
    >
    >>
    >>It depends on the individual situation and circumstances.

    >
    > First off, idiot. This is Usenet, so do not change the follow ups to
    >email, retard.


    You have an opinion on almost any subject... and most of them are
    wrong. Congrats..... Didn't I tell you to leave?






    "Arguing with anonymous strangers on the Internet is a sucker's game
    because they almost always turn out to be -- or to be indistinguishable from
    -- self-righteous sixteen-year-olds possessing infinite amounts of free time."
    - Neil Stephenson, _Cryptonomicon_
    Allan, Jan 1, 2006
    #15
  16. J Poy

    J. Clarke Guest

    Roy L. Fuchs wrote:

    > On Sat, 31 Dec 2005 01:33:35 GMT, John in Detroit <>
    > Gave us:
    >
    >>You see, the top end antennas have a compartment at the head (antenna)
    >>end, this compartment contains either the proper matching balun (300 or
    >>75 ohm) or a pre-ampolifier (and CM's pre-amps are very good, at least
    >>in my expierence, which I'll admit is some decades old)

    >
    >
    > The entire point was and still is that a preamplified antenna is
    > better than not having one. PARTICULARLY in the digital realm as
    > ghost signals, reflections, etc. are not a problem as they are in
    > analog reception.


    What ever gives you the notion that multipath is not a problem with digital
    television? It most assuredly is and it's also not difficult to overdrive
    common digital tuners.

    --
    --John
    to email, dial "usenet" and validate
    (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
    J. Clarke, Jan 1, 2006
    #16
  17. J Poy

    Roy L. Fuchs Guest

    On 31 Dec 2005 21:18:41 -0800, "G-squared" <> Gave
    us:

    >To make silly statements about the digital realm assumes you can
    >recover the analog to GET to the digital realm.


    Ever heard of "bit error rate"? Ever heard of "FEC"?

    He is lost. You are borderline lost, until I get some more insight
    as to your actual knowledge of the subject.
    Roy L. Fuchs, Jan 1, 2006
    #17
  18. J Poy

    Roy L. Fuchs Guest

    On 31 Dec 2005 21:18:41 -0800, "G-squared" <> Gave
    us:

    >
    >Think some about the 10.7 million tokens/second to stuff nearly 20
    >megabits into 6 MHz of bandwidth,



    Bullshit. We can pass TWELVE, count 'em, son... TWLEVE standard
    definition signals on ONE 6Mhz wide carrier.

    You need to grasp that before you can move forward.

    I suggest research on SCPC and MCPC as starting points.

    As far as HDTV goes, it is NO PROBLEM to pass ONE single stream in
    that same 6Mhz wide channel.

    Try again. I worked at General Instrument. Start there. They were
    recently purchased by Motorola.

    http://broadband.motorola.com/consumers/support/faqs/dct5100_faq.asp
    Roy L. Fuchs, Jan 1, 2006
    #18
  19. J Poy

    Roy L. Fuchs Guest

    On 31 Dec 2005 21:18:41 -0800, "G-squared" <> Gave
    us:

    >BTW ghosts (multipath) are a BIGGER problem in digital than analog.


    NOT! Look up diversity receiver! Here's a sample of why NOT!

    Try http://www.avalonrf.com/ for just ONE player in the digital
    realm game. They are the MASTERS at signal discrimination.

    Just ask anyone at a race track or anyone in Hollywood, or anyone on
    the flight deck of an aircraft carrier. They ALL use diversity
    receivers.

    Do a search on diversity receiver(s).

    Either the packet makes it in, or it doesn't. The standard
    currently rests somewhere around 10% bit error rate.

    There's another one for you. Research "bit error rate".
    Roy L. Fuchs, Jan 1, 2006
    #19
  20. J Poy

    Len G Guest

    I don't know what everyone else is going to say but down here in
    Niagara we are using 4 and 8 bay bowtie antennas, this is after
    experimenting with a few others.
    If you look on epay you can find them on there, someone in the buffalo
    or Niagara falls usa area is selling them.
    They work like a charm, in fact a friend up in Scarborough is running
    an 8 bay one and I believe he is getting everything but 49.1 which
    seems to be available to only their parking lot.
    That's ok as CITY TV is not available in this area, they send most of
    their signal north.
    So and 8 BAY bowtie pointed out towards buffalo and you most like
    won't even need a rotator, unless you want the stations out of
    Hamilton.

    On Thu, 29 Dec 2005 22:30:01 -0500, "J Poy" <> wrote:

    >Greetings,
    >
    >I would like to assemble a HD PVR possibly using this card with my
    >computer. I just purchased a LG plasma HD TV it has a it's own HD tuner
    >plus NTSC tuner which I want to use to capture OTA signals.
    >
    >I have heard this ATI card is having it's problems. Has anyone have personal
    >experience with it and is a software problem?
    >
    >I heard of the Fusion HDTV 5 Gold is a good tuner, but I can't locate one
    >hear in Ontario.
    >
    >I would also like to purchase a UHF outdoor antenna (CHANNEL MASTER OR OTHER
    >MANUFACTURES) anyone know where I can get one in Toronto or Mississauga?
    >
    >I'm trying to avoided the costs associated of having to pay the monthly bill
    >for the HD signal to the cable company.
    >
    >Any help or recommendations would be appreciated.
    >
    >Thanks!
    >
    >Newbi
    >
    >Wishing you all HAPPY NEW YEAR!
    >
    Len G, Jan 1, 2006
    #20
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    1
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    304
    Yin Liu
    Aug 11, 2013
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