HD-DVD will *not* have regional codes

Discussion in 'DVD Video' started by Modemac, Oct 9, 2005.

  1. Modemac

    Modemac Guest

    http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000873062235/

    If these folks are to be believed, then eventually they will do away
    with those stupid "regional" codes that prevent Japanese and European
    DVDs from being played on DVD players in the USA -- and vice versa.

    Assuming they don't change their minds and kill this revenue stream,
    that is.

    --
    The High Weirdness Project
    http://www.modemac.com/wiki
    Modemac, Oct 9, 2005
    #1
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  2. Modemac

    Impmon Guest

    On Sun, 09 Oct 2005 11:28:18 GMT, Modemac <> wrote:

    >If these folks are to be believed, then eventually they will do away
    >with those stupid "regional" codes that prevent Japanese and European
    >DVDs from being played on DVD players in the USA -- and vice versa.


    Well, it'd be hacked anyway. Current DVD players were easily hacked
    and if you happened to own a player that can't be hacked for
    multi-region you're likely to have a DVD burner where you could rip
    the DVD, and burn a region-free DVD copy.
    --
    When you hear the toilet flush, and hear the words "uh oh", it's already
    too late. - by anonymous Mother in Austin, TX
    To reply, replace digi.mon with phreaker.net
    Impmon, Oct 9, 2005
    #2
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  3. Modemac wrote:
    >
    > http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000873062235/
    >
    > If these folks are to be believed, then eventually
    > they will do away with those stupid "regional" codes
    > that prevent Japanese and European DVDs from being
    > played on DVD players in the USA -- and vice versa.


    What little I've read of the debate between HDTV and
    BlueRay sounds like HDTV=Betamax and BlueRay=VHS.

    Except that in this case, HDTV is not technically
    superior to BlueRay either.

    I'd be interested to know what the non-affiliated tech
    geeks have to say about them.


    --
    Be Sure To Visit the 'SubGenius Reverend' Blog:
    http://slackoff.blogspot.com/
    ***********
    "Idle hands are the Devil's fully-funded
    research and development laboratory."
    -- nu-monet
    nu-monet v8.0, Oct 9, 2005
    #3
  4. Modemac wrote:
    >


    Come to think of it, they *still* haven't reached any
    consensus about DVD +R and -R.

    Isn't that bugger all? Not knowing if all of a sudden
    the tech you are using will just be discarded by the
    manufacturers in favor of the other standard.


    --
    Be Sure To Visit the 'SubGenius Reverend' Blog:
    http://slackoff.blogspot.com/
    ***********
    "YOU BELONG TO US NOW!"
    "GET DOWN WITH MY SICKNESS!!"

    --Kino Beman, brand name
    nu-monet v8.0, Oct 9, 2005
    #4
  5. Modemac <> wrote:

    >If these folks are to be believed,


    That's the thing. It sounds very phony. If region codes are so unpopular
    with DVD makers, there's absolutely nothing in the current DVD standards to
    stop them from making all their DVDs region-free today. This is an option
    that they obviously want to use.
    Kimba W. Lion, Oct 9, 2005
    #5
  6. Modemac

    Sacre Bleu Guest

    nu-monet v8.0 wrote:
    > Modemac wrote:
    >
    >
    > Come to think of it, they *still* haven't reached any
    > consensus about DVD +R and -R.
    >
    > Isn't that bugger all? Not knowing if all of a sudden
    > the tech you are using will just be discarded by the
    > manufacturers in favor of the other standard.
    >


    http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/12424

    Shit, China's doing one better, they're creating their own HDDVD format.
    To avoid the licensing fees related to codec implementation, they're
    creating their own. With 1 Billion + consumer base, who needs outside
    competition.
    Sacre Bleu, Oct 9, 2005
    #6
  7. Modemac

    Impmon Guest

    On Sun, 09 Oct 2005 06:00:32 -0700, "nu-monet v8.0"
    <> wrote:

    >What little I've read of the debate between HDTV and
    >BlueRay sounds like HDTV=Betamax and BlueRay=VHS.


    Erm didn't you mean HD-DVD not HD-TV? HDTV is the current TV standard
    that is replacing the older NTSC TV. HD-DVD is the next gen format
    that is competing with Blu-ray.
    --
    When you hear the toilet flush, and hear the words "uh oh", it's already
    too late. - by anonymous Mother in Austin, TX
    To reply, replace digi.mon with phreaker.net
    Impmon, Oct 10, 2005
    #7
  8. Modemac

    Rick Guest

    "Impmon" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Sun, 09 Oct 2005 11:28:18 GMT, Modemac <> wrote:
    >
    >>If these folks are to be believed, then eventually they will do away
    >>with those stupid "regional" codes that prevent Japanese and European
    >>DVDs from being played on DVD players in the USA -- and vice versa.

    >
    > Well, it'd be hacked anyway. Current DVD players were easily hacked
    > and if you happened to own a player that can't be hacked for
    > multi-region you're likely to have a DVD burner where you could rip
    > the DVD, and burn a region-free DVD copy.


    The CSS protection of DVD was not hacked at all, it was accidentally
    released in its unencrypted form by XING. The story goes that one of the
    versions of the XING DVD Player was distributed, but one of the developers
    of the program unintentionally included up the CSS code in its original form
    and some 12-year-old kid just happened to stumble across this oversight and
    then he just told the world about it. The code was never reverse-engineered
    or hacked as you might say (and it never could have been), it was just
    someone's (ultimately huge) mistake that now makes it possible for us to rip
    every DVD in existence ... before that you still had to pay for all your
    DVDs.
    Rick, Oct 11, 2005
    #8
  9. On Wed, 12 Oct 2005 01:12:54 +0930, Rick wrote:

    > one of the developers
    > of the program unintentionally included up the CSS code in its original form
    > and some 12-year-old kid just happened to stumble across this oversight and
    > then he just told the world about it.


    Cite? I thought it was DVD Jon who reverse engineered it.


    > The code was never reverse-engineered
    > or hacked as you might say (and it never could have been)


    Yeah, ok. Just as soon as someone believes that about any code or crypto
    cipher, there's some kid in Sweden who just cracked it.
    Rev. Lee Austin, Oct 11, 2005
    #9
  10. You are incorrect, sir.

    http://www.tbtf.com/resource/CSS-Leitner.html

    November 19, 1999
    Felix von Leitner grew weary of inaccurate press accounts of the ripping
    open of the DVD encryption secret, in late October of 1999. His summary in
    translation of his German article on the subject is posted here by
    permission.

    This material is Copyright © 1999 by Felix von Leitner <leitner at fefe dot
    de>.



    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    1.. It is difficult (next to impossible) to copyright digital content.
    So the film industry decided to implement a copy protection scheme (it does
    not matter if it works or not) and legally protect that. Then, if anyone
    copies a DVD, they can sue him on violating the copy protection rights.

    2.. Like most clueless consortia, they did not ask an expert but defined
    their own encryption. This should remind everyone of the spectacular
    failures that previous consortia suffered with this strategy (notably the
    GSM mobile telephony "encryption" and the pay TV standards). Actually there
    is a conspiracy theory that the film industry deliberately made the standard
    weak so they more people would break it and they could get more money out of
    the combined lawsuits. An interesting side-note is that they actually did
    ask an expert (at least one expert, the Intel security officer who designed
    the DVD key exchange with the 409 player keys). That expert told them that
    their cryptography was weak and they did not listen to him.

    3.. The algorithm was proprietary and unpublished. But once software
    players can decrypt the DVD you can read the decryption key and binary code
    from your computer's RAM and look at it. It is vital to understand that no
    amount of obfuscation or "encryption" can prevent this. If the computer can
    decrypt the DVD, the decryption code must be visible to the processor and
    then it is also visible to the attacker. To blame the DVD crack on Xing
    shows an amazing amount of incompetence. Xing probably is the party with the
    least "guilt" (if you can talk about guilt in the first place).

    4.. Some warez cracker group disassembled the decryption code gleaned
    from the Xing player and decompiled it back to C code. This C code was
    anonymously published around the world. Among others, the mailing list of
    the Linux DVD development effort was one of the recepients.

    5.. A cryptographer got hold of this code and wrote a program that would
    crack the code by trying all the keys within a single day. That program
    would crack a key in at most 17 hours, that is after 8.5 hours average
    running time it would have found the key. This is notable because it shows
    just how bad the encryption is. The DES crack took eight days on 40
    machines, this crack takes 8.5 hours on one machine. And DES is nowadays
    regarded as too weak because of that.

    6.. The next day the same cryptographer had found and implemented an
    attack that would find a key within a fraction of a second if you know 6
    bytes of decrypted output.

    7.. It was later found that the attack can be enhanced to work with 5
    known output bytes. These 5 bytes are known if you watch an encoder
    successfully decrypt a DVD! The new attack takes 5 seconds.

    8.. The DVD encryption works like this: each DVD is encrypted with a
    randomly generated session key. This key is encrypted with 408 different
    "player keys", each of the encrypted keys are stored in a sector on the DVD.
    Each player vendor must have registered with the DVD consortium and received
    a player key. It can then decrypt all the encrypted session keys with its
    player key and check if it got the right one against a hash value that is
    also stored on disk. The rationale is that, if a player key is compromised,
    you can fabricate future DVDs without the session key with that player key,
    i.e. you can retract keys.

    9.. 5 seconds and 408 keys means that you can decrypt all player keys in
    about 30 minutes. The next day someone published "a few hundred random
    numbers" with the comment that the generation took 30 minutes. That means
    that CSS has been completely broken. This was the event that caused the DVD
    consortium to unleash their lawyers. If the DVD consortium would replace all
    the player keys on future DVDs, then it would only take another 30 minutes
    to break them all, and all the people who have bought DVD players from Sony,
    Panasonic, whatever, would have to bring them in for replacement.

    10.. The absolute killing stroke was delivered the next day when it was
    found out that you can retrieve the session key just by using the hash value
    that players use for verification in a mere 20 seconds! That is even if the
    DVD consortium would change the DVD player keys every few months, CSS would
    still be broken, and there would even be no manual intervention when someone
    needs to invest the 30 minutes of CPU time to crack all the player keys.
    Conclusion: CSS is amazingly weak. They did almost everything wrong. The
    only thing they did right was the retraction scheme for DVD player keys. I
    couldn't point at any other thing that they could have done worse than they
    already did.
    What I find very worrisome about this is that the consumer has to pay all
    the money that was wasted on devising and implementing CSS. And now the film
    industry is hunting the wrong people with their lawyers. The reverse
    engineers posted the stuff anonymously, so the lawyers are going after the
    Linux developers who had nothing to do with the whole issue besides that it
    was posted on their mailing list.

    It is interesting to note that the code came from different players. While
    the player key came from the Xing player, the authentication code came from
    another player, rumours say it was the Cinemaster player, and the CSS code
    comes from an unknown player. At any time there were at least 5 teams
    working on extracting the code from different players.

    This was not just some kid stumbling upon on a weakly encrypted Xing key
    as the media reported.

    Felix





    "Rick" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    > "Impmon" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> On Sun, 09 Oct 2005 11:28:18 GMT, Modemac <> wrote:
    >>
    >>>If these folks are to be believed, then eventually they will do away
    >>>with those stupid "regional" codes that prevent Japanese and European
    >>>DVDs from being played on DVD players in the USA -- and vice versa.

    >>
    >> Well, it'd be hacked anyway. Current DVD players were easily hacked
    >> and if you happened to own a player that can't be hacked for
    >> multi-region you're likely to have a DVD burner where you could rip
    >> the DVD, and burn a region-free DVD copy.

    >
    > The CSS protection of DVD was not hacked at all, it was accidentally
    > released in its unencrypted form by XING. The story goes that one of the
    > versions of the XING DVD Player was distributed, but one of the developers
    > of the program unintentionally included up the CSS code in its original
    > form and some 12-year-old kid just happened to stumble across this
    > oversight and then he just told the world about it. The code was never
    > reverse-engineered or hacked as you might say (and it never could have
    > been), it was just someone's (ultimately huge) mistake that now makes it
    > possible for us to rip every DVD in existence ... before that you still
    > had to pay for all your DVDs.
    >
    >
    Rev. 11D Meow!, Oct 11, 2005
    #10
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