HD-DVD Players/Media

Discussion in 'DVD Video' started by BiG_Orange, Oct 16, 2003.

  1. BiG_Orange

    BiG_Orange Guest

    When are HD-DVD players going to start hitting the streets? I am thinking
    about getting the new Samsung 1080i upscale with DVI outputs if it is going
    to be a while.

    Big Orange
    BiG_Orange, Oct 16, 2003
    #1
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  2. BiG_Orange

    Mark Spatny Guest

    "BiG_Orange" <@>,"BiG_Orange" <@> says...
    > When are HD-DVD players going to start hitting the streets?


    Stand alone players, with studios releases on disk available to the
    public? It will be years from now. The technology isn't the hangup. The
    studios simply will wait for two reasons:

    1) The existing DVD format is doing so well there is no incentive to
    confuse the marketplace and screw things up.

    2) Piracy concerns. Hell, the studios won't even let HBO and Showtime
    have all the good films for their HD channels. They aren't about to let
    easily reproduced discs out into the market with HD movies until they
    have a much better copy protection system.
    Mark Spatny, Oct 20, 2003
    #2
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  3. in article , Mark Spatny
    at wrote on 10/19/03 10:41 PM:

    > "BiG_Orange" <@>,"BiG_Orange" <@> says...
    >> When are HD-DVD players going to start hitting the streets?

    >
    > Stand alone players, with studios releases on disk available to the
    > public? It will be years from now. The technology isn't the hangup. The
    > studios simply will wait for two reasons:
    >
    > 1) The existing DVD format is doing so well there is no incentive to
    > confuse the marketplace and screw things up.


    Introducing HD-DVD titles would in no way risk the success of DVD. On the
    contrary, it would fix some of the things wrong with DVD from a studio point
    of view.

    Pretty simple really, just release High Definition versions at higher
    prices. This can be done with new titles and old, just as long as they're
    the big titles...Matrix, Terminator, etc...

    The industry would love to be able to sell multiple versions at different
    price points and times for the same title. They do this already.

    The beauty is that there would be no need to push into HD, and the market
    that already exists today is far more affluent and willing to spend more
    money per title if it's HD. So prices for HD could be much higher and
    eventually reach a point of acceptance where titles were exclusive to HD,
    but still be higher priced than if they had been released on DVD.

    It would be one thing if HD-DVD players did not play old DVDs, but that's
    not going to happen.

    Granted, the average person is stupid, but not so stupid that the
    overwhelming majority are going to be confused by packaging that clearly
    promotes the DVD as High Definition along with the higher price.

    Plus, there's the issue of being one of the first titles available. If your
    HD-DVD is the one being shown in showrooms, you'll get more sales of the
    title (even in old DVD format).

    Overall, there's a lot of competition out there as well as a good sense for
    HD being inevitable. There's no way they're going to turn down an
    opportunity for more revenue as well as more revenue per disk.

    > 2) Piracy concerns. Hell, the studios won't even let HBO and Showtime
    > have all the good films for their HD channels. They aren't about to let
    > easily reproduced discs out into the market with HD movies until they
    > have a much better copy protection system.


    That's yet another argument in favor of moving to HD-DVD. DVD no longer has
    copy protection, it is lost and more importantly GONE FOREVER.

    With HD-DVD they can use better copy protection, which does exist. Even if
    they used the same method as before, it would still help due to the size of
    the titles. Today, it's pretty easy to download any DVD title off the Net.
    If it's a single layer, you can download a bit perfect copy of the disk in
    the background in as little as a day or two. If it's dual layer, you can
    get a bit perfect copy of the movie without extras in about the same time.

    HD-DVD disks would be inherently harder to share due to the file sizes
    involved.

    Studios could easily insist that additional hardware-based copy protection
    exists. It will never be 100% secure of course, but it's very possible to
    reduce piracy to a point where it's not significant to the bottom line.
    MR_ED_of_Course, Oct 20, 2003
    #3
  4. BiG_Orange

    Mark Spatny Guest

    Your arguments sound logical, but sadly do not represent the current
    thinking of the studios. It's a fact that the studios have HUGE
    reservations about releasing HD content. They are not going to do it
    until the hardware copyright protections are resolved. Perhaps you
    haven't been reading about how the studios are trying to pressure the
    government into madating copyright technology for all HD capable
    systems, including disc, tape, and broadcast - even displays. Their big
    threat has been that they will not release more HD programming until the
    government mandates a copyright sceme that they like, and force
    manufacturers to use it.

    Since none of the hardware manufacturers and the studios can agree on a
    protection scheme to implement, and nothing short of an act of Congress
    is going to change that, you won't see HD-DVD anytime soon.

    You should watch this issue more. If the studios had their way, almost
    all HD displays would be obsolete, because the copyright protection
    system that the studios want implemented would specifically NOT output a
    signal compatable with the current component standard, unless the
    pictures going to the component connectors is downrezzed to 480P. For
    HD, you'd need to go buy a display with the proper DVI connector.

    Not good.
    Mark Spatny, Oct 20, 2003
    #4
  5. Mark Spatny wrote:

    > Your arguments sound logical, but sadly do not represent the current
    > thinking of the studios. It's a fact that the studios have HUGE
    > reservations about releasing HD content.


    And there is no particular financial penalty for them to delay. They are
    making money, hand over fist, with DVD. When DVD hits the saturation
    point (another year or two) and, sometime after that, people start
    ignoring DVD releases, as they started ignoring VHS releases, you might
    see some movement from the studios.

    It's the electronics manufacturers that want to release HD-DVD. DVD
    players are a commodity item (they may hit $30 this Christmas cycle) and
    there is virtually no profit left in selling the hardware.

    Matthew

    --
    <http://www.mlmartin.com/bbq/>

    Thermodynamics For Dummies: You can't win.
    You can't break even.
    You can't get out of the game.
    Matthew L. Martin, Oct 20, 2003
    #5
  6. BiG_Orange

    Mark Spatny Guest

    Matthew L. Martin, says...

    > DVD
    > players are a commodity item (they may hit $30 this Christmas cycle)


    I have one in my office, for which I paid $35 at Best Buy. So we are
    almost there!
    Mark Spatny, Oct 21, 2003
    #6
  7. BiG_Orange

    Eric R. Guest

    "Matthew L. Martin" <> wrote in message

    > It's the electronics manufacturers that want to release HD-DVD. DVD
    > players are a commodity item (they may hit $30 this Christmas cycle) and
    > there is virtually no profit left in selling the hardware.


    Not to mention all those wonderful HDTV TV's waiting for someone to
    buy them. Not much of a selling point when there is no media available
    for them and a lot of people still can't even get HDTV broadcast
    content.

    -Eric
    Eric R., Oct 22, 2003
    #7
  8. Eric R. wrote:
    > "Matthew L. Martin" <> wrote in message
    >
    >
    >>It's the electronics manufacturers that want to release HD-DVD. DVD
    >>players are a commodity item (they may hit $30 this Christmas cycle) and
    >>there is virtually no profit left in selling the hardware.

    >
    >
    > Not to mention all those wonderful HDTV TV's waiting for someone to
    > buy them.


    HDTVs are selling quite well. It's getting difficult to find/buy NTSC
    only RPTVs at this point.

    > Not much of a selling point when there is no media available
    > for them and a lot of people still can't even get HDTV broadcast
    > content.


    Haven't been keeping up with HD developments? Almost everyone in the US
    can receive HDTV. It's a matter of getting them to buy the equipment.

    Matthew

    --
    <http://www.mlmartin.com/bbq/>

    Thermodynamics For Dummies: You can't win.
    You can't break even.
    You can't get out of the game.
    Matthew L. Martin, Oct 22, 2003
    #8
  9. BiG_Orange

    Goldfinger Guest

    "Eric R." <> wrote in message
    news:...

    > Not to mention all those wonderful HDTV TV's waiting for someone to
    > buy them. Not much of a selling point when there is no media available
    > for them and a lot of people still can't even get HDTV broadcast
    > content.


    I think this will be a tag of war between hardware and software makers.
    Hardware makers can no longer make money from selling DVD players and other
    NTSC equipment so they are going to push HDTV as much as possible. At the
    same time, as long as people are buying DVDs by the dozens, what is the
    incentive for the studios to move forward to HD-DVD?

    The key player in this war is Sony who is both a hardware and software
    maker. Sony is bleeding blood in the hardware business, lossing money to
    its cheaper rivals like Apex or even Samsung.
    Goldfinger, Oct 22, 2003
    #9
  10. in article JPxlb.6569137$, Goldfinger at
    wrote on 10/22/03 8:59 AM:

    >
    > "Eric R." <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >
    >> Not to mention all those wonderful HDTV TV's waiting for someone to
    >> buy them. Not much of a selling point when there is no media available
    >> for them and a lot of people still can't even get HDTV broadcast
    >> content.

    >
    > I think this will be a tag of war between hardware and software makers.
    > Hardware makers can no longer make money from selling DVD players and other
    > NTSC equipment so they are going to push HDTV as much as possible. At the
    > same time, as long as people are buying DVDs by the dozens, what is the
    > incentive for the studios to move forward to HD-DVD?
    >
    > The key player in this war is Sony who is both a hardware and software
    > maker. Sony is bleeding blood in the hardware business, lossing money to
    > its cheaper rivals like Apex or even Samsung.


    I think it's important to realize the difference between broadcast HD and
    HD-DVD. With broadcast, it's a decision of HD for a smaller audience or
    standard for a larger audience. The revenue per viewer difference is
    intangible at best.

    With DVD, there is no either or decision to be made. Both can be released,
    and the HD-DVD version can be significantly priced higher to the market more
    likely to pay a premium for it.

    I agree, Sony is going to be a leader, but I'd also expect Warner to be at
    the forefront again.

    It will be a snowball effect starting with expensive HD-DVD decks and only a
    few titles being tested, and it will grow...just not nearly as rapidly as
    the phenomenal growth DVDs experienced.
    MR_ED_of_Course, Oct 22, 2003
    #10
  11. BiG_Orange

    Goldfinger Guest

    "MR_ED_of_Course" <> wrote in message
    news:BBBC2F6B.23942%...

    > With DVD, there is no either or decision to be made. Both can be

    released,
    > and the HD-DVD version can be significantly priced higher to the market

    more
    > likely to pay a premium for it.


    The one thing the studios did right with DVD is the low, impluse buying
    pricing. It almost doesn't make sense to buy bootleg DVDs or burn DVDs
    because genuien DVDs are very reasonably priced. Studios realize that and
    they know high prices euqals high level of piracy that leads to loss
    revenues. I don't see how the studios can charge a lot more for HD DVD.
    Maybe $5 -$7 more and that's it. If the difference is more than that, the
    studios are asking for trouble and creating jobs for pirates.
    Goldfinger, Oct 22, 2003
    #11
  12. in article zMBlb.6581262$, Goldfinger at
    wrote on 10/22/03 1:29 PM:

    >
    > "MR_ED_of_Course" <> wrote in message
    > news:BBBC2F6B.23942%...
    >
    >> With DVD, there is no either or decision to be made. Both can be

    > released,
    >> and the HD-DVD version can be significantly priced higher to the market

    > more
    >> likely to pay a premium for it.

    >
    > The one thing the studios did right with DVD is the low, impluse buying
    > pricing. It almost doesn't make sense to buy bootleg DVDs or burn DVDs
    > because genuien DVDs are very reasonably priced. Studios realize that and
    > they know high prices euqals high level of piracy that leads to loss
    > revenues. I don't see how the studios can charge a lot more for HD DVD.
    > Maybe $5 -$7 more and that's it. If the difference is more than that, the
    > studios are asking for trouble and creating jobs for pirates.
    >


    I think they could charge twice as much as that for HD versions initially as
    they are simultaneously released on standard DVD.

    $30 too much for a HD-DVD? What makes more sense, buying the standard
    version of the DVD for $15, or pirating the DVD?

    If you want maximum quality and have the money, you'd pay the $30.

    If the money is the issue, then $15 is totally reasonable for standard DVD.

    It still doesn't promote piracy that there is a new premium higher quality
    standard, especially if that standard is harder to pirate or impossible to
    bit perfect copy...as long as both versions are available.

    Definitely expect sticker shock with HD-DVDs. Initial sales will be a
    different segment of the market than what initial DVD sales were. Think
    more along the lines of Laserdisc.
    MR_ED_of_Course, Oct 23, 2003
    #12
  13. BiG_Orange

    Richard C. Guest

    "Eric R." <> wrote in message
    news:...
    : "Matthew L. Martin" <> wrote in message
    :
    : > It's the electronics manufacturers that want to release HD-DVD. DVD
    : > players are a commodity item (they may hit $30 this Christmas cycle) and
    : > there is virtually no profit left in selling the hardware.
    :
    : Not to mention all those wonderful HDTV TV's waiting for someone to
    : buy them. Not much of a selling point when there is no media available
    : for them and a lot of people still can't even get HDTV broadcast
    : content.
    :
    ======================
    Anyone can get HDTV.
    Richard C., Oct 23, 2003
    #13
  14. BiG_Orange

    Eric R. Guest

    "Matthew L. Martin" <> wrote in message

    > HDTVs are selling quite well. It's getting difficult to find/buy NTSC
    > only RPTVs at this point.


    The only reason they're selling at all is because people buying
    high-end models don't have any other option. Otherwise, WTF is the
    point of having one with no HDTV material to watch on it?

    > Haven't been keeping up with HD developments? Almost everyone in the US
    > can receive HDTV.


    Not me.

    > It's a matter of getting them to buy the equipment.


    Yeah, and getting their cable companies to go digital or getting their
    neighborhoods to allow antennas, etc., etc., etc. And even then, what
    are you really getting? The privilege of watching "Becker" in all its
    HDTV glory? Until there is some kind of media format like HD-DVD, HDTV
    will still just be a novelty.

    -Eric
    Eric R., Oct 23, 2003
    #14
  15. Eric R. wrote:

    > "Matthew L. Martin" <> wrote in message
    >
    >
    >>HDTVs are selling quite well. It's getting difficult to find/buy NTSC
    >>only RPTVs at this point.

    >
    >
    > The only reason they're selling at all is because people buying
    > high-end models don't have any other option. Otherwise, WTF is the
    > point of having one with no HDTV material to watch on it?


    I repeat: Almost everyone in the US can receive free HDTV over the air.

    >>Haven't been keeping up with HD developments? Almost everyone in the US
    >>can receive HDTV.

    >
    >
    > Not me.


    I said almost.

    >>It's a matter of getting them to buy the equipment.

    >
    >
    > Yeah, and getting their cable companies to go digital or getting their
    > neighborhoods to allow antennas, etc., etc., etc.


    Many people can get HDTV with indoor antenna and the FCC guarantees the
    right to erect outdoor antenna except in very specific circumstances.

    > And even then, what
    > are you really getting? The privilege of watching "Becker" in all its
    > HDTV glory? Until there is some kind of media format like HD-DVD, HDTV
    > will still just be a novelty.


    For you, probably even after that. For the people who are already
    watching their favorite programs in HDTV every day, it;s far from "just
    a novelty"

    You are not everyone.

    Matthew

    --
    <http://www.mlmartin.com/bbq/>

    Thermodynamics For Dummies: You can't win.
    You can't break even.
    You can't get out of the game.
    Matthew L. Martin, Oct 23, 2003
    #15
  16. BiG_Orange

    Richard C. Guest

    "Eric R." <> wrote in message
    news:...
    :
    : Yeah, and getting their cable companies to go digital

    ===========================
    Going "digital" does not guarantee HD.
    ANYONE can get sat HD.
    ===========================

    : or getting their
    : neighborhoods to allow antennas,

    ======================
    Your neighborhood cannot NOT allow antennas.
    ========================

    : etc., etc., etc. And even then, what
    : are you really getting? The privilege of watching "Becker" in all its
    : HDTV glory? Until there is some kind of media format like HD-DVD, HDTV
    : will still just be a novelty.
    :
    =======================
    Sorry you are going to be left behind......it is your choice................
    Richard C., Oct 23, 2003
    #16
  17. BiG_Orange

    Smaug69 Guest

    "Matthew L. Martin" <> wrote in message news:<>...

    <snip>

    > >>Haven't been keeping up with HD developments? Almost everyone in the US
    > >>can receive HDTV.

    > >
    > >
    > > Not me.

    >
    > I said almost.


    Oh? And do you have a source for this that clearly says what areas do
    not receive HD signals?

    > >>It's a matter of getting them to buy the equipment.

    > >
    > >
    > > Yeah, and getting their cable companies to go digital or getting their
    > > neighborhoods to allow antennas, etc., etc., etc.

    >
    > Many people can get HDTV with indoor antenna and the FCC guarantees the
    > right to erect outdoor antenna except in very specific circumstances.


    Unless you live in an area where you have to sign a homeowner's
    association contract agreement which specifically prohibits it.

    > > And even then, what
    > > are you really getting? The privilege of watching "Becker" in all its
    > > HDTV glory? Until there is some kind of media format like HD-DVD, HDTV
    > > will still just be a novelty.

    >
    > For you, probably even after that. For the people who are already
    > watching their favorite programs in HDTV every day, it;s far from "just
    > a novelty"


    There is still only a tiny percentage of the programming available
    that is broadcast in HD. Fox doesn't do any. And what about basic
    cable? Since most of the shows that I like are on Fox or basic cable
    then I guess I'm out of luck.

    > You are not everyone.


    No, but he's part of the majority when it comes to people who want to
    get HDTVs, but either don't have the money, don't have the ability to
    get HDTV signals or don't think that the HDTV programming that is now
    offered is worth paying all that money.

    Face it, primetime network broadcasting will never be the biggest
    selling point for HDTV. It will be sports events and some kind of HD
    home video media(not on tape, of course).

    Smaug69
    Smaug69, Oct 23, 2003
    #17
  18. BiG_Orange

    Biz Guest

    Some of you really need to read up on whats available and ways to get HDTV
    no matter where you live. Almost all of the scripted primetime programming
    from all 4 of the major networks is now broadcast in Hi-Def. If you live
    within 70 miles or so of a decent metro area, they most likely are already
    making HD content available OTA. Antennnas capable of receiving the
    programming can be mounted inside, like the TERK. If you want to make
    excuses, at least get your facts straight.
    "Smaug69" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > "Matthew L. Martin" <> wrote in message

    news:<>...
    >
    > <snip>
    >
    > > >>Haven't been keeping up with HD developments? Almost everyone in the

    US
    > > >>can receive HDTV.
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > Not me.

    > >
    > > I said almost.

    >
    > Oh? And do you have a source for this that clearly says what areas do
    > not receive HD signals?
    >
    > > >>It's a matter of getting them to buy the equipment.
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > Yeah, and getting their cable companies to go digital or getting their
    > > > neighborhoods to allow antennas, etc., etc., etc.

    > >
    > > Many people can get HDTV with indoor antenna and the FCC guarantees the
    > > right to erect outdoor antenna except in very specific circumstances.

    >
    > Unless you live in an area where you have to sign a homeowner's
    > association contract agreement which specifically prohibits it.
    >
    > > > And even then, what
    > > > are you really getting? The privilege of watching "Becker" in all its
    > > > HDTV glory? Until there is some kind of media format like HD-DVD, HDTV
    > > > will still just be a novelty.

    > >
    > > For you, probably even after that. For the people who are already
    > > watching their favorite programs in HDTV every day, it;s far from "just
    > > a novelty"

    >
    > There is still only a tiny percentage of the programming available
    > that is broadcast in HD. Fox doesn't do any. And what about basic
    > cable? Since most of the shows that I like are on Fox or basic cable
    > then I guess I'm out of luck.
    >
    > > You are not everyone.

    >
    > No, but he's part of the majority when it comes to people who want to
    > get HDTVs, but either don't have the money, don't have the ability to
    > get HDTV signals or don't think that the HDTV programming that is now
    > offered is worth paying all that money.
    >
    > Face it, primetime network broadcasting will never be the biggest
    > selling point for HDTV. It will be sports events and some kind of HD
    > home video media(not on tape, of course).
    >
    > Smaug69
    Biz, Oct 23, 2003
    #18
  19. Smaug69 wrote:
    > "Matthew L. Martin" <> wrote in message news:<>...
    >
    > <snip>
    >
    >
    >>>>Haven't been keeping up with HD developments? Almost everyone in the US
    >>>>can receive HDTV.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>Not me.

    >>
    >>I said almost.

    >
    >
    > Oh? And do you have a source for this that clearly says what areas do
    > not receive HD signals?


    Go to www.titantv.com and enter in your zip code. If they say there
    isn't and HDTV in your area, you won't get any.

    >>>>It's a matter of getting them to buy the equipment.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>Yeah, and getting their cable companies to go digital or getting their
    >>>neighborhoods to allow antennas, etc., etc., etc.

    >>
    >>Many people can get HDTV with indoor antenna and the FCC guarantees the
    >>right to erect outdoor antenna except in very specific circumstances.

    >
    >
    > Unless you live in an area where you have to sign a homeowner's
    > association contract agreement which specifically prohibits it.


    FCC regulations trump HOAs. The only restrictions allowed are for safety
    and historical preservation areas. Go look it up on the FCC's website.

    >>>And even then, what
    >>>are you really getting? The privilege of watching "Becker" in all its
    >>>HDTV glory? Until there is some kind of media format like HD-DVD, HDTV
    >>>will still just be a novelty.

    >>
    >>For you, probably even after that. For the people who are already
    >>watching their favorite programs in HDTV every day, it;s far from "just
    >>a novelty"

    >
    >
    > There is still only a tiny percentage of the programming available
    > that is broadcast in HD.


    Virtually all scripted prime time programs on the 3 1/2 major networks
    are HD.

    > Fox doesn't do any.


    Fox will be HD in 2004.

    > And what about basic
    > cable? Since most of the shows that I like are on Fox or basic cable
    > then I guess I'm out of luck.


    I guess you chose to be out of luck.

    >>You are not everyone.

    >
    >
    > No, but he's part of the majority when it comes to people who want to
    > get HDTVs, but either don't have the money, don't have the ability to
    > get HDTV signals or don't think that the HDTV programming that is now
    > offered is worth paying all that money.


    How is he in the majority? People are watching HD on sub $1000 displays
    with $250 STBs and $30 antenna.

    > Face it, primetime network broadcasting will never be the biggest
    > selling point for HDTV. It will be sports events and some kind of HD
    > home video media(not on tape, of course).


    Sure, if you say so.

    Matthew

    --
    <http://www.mlmartin.com/bbq/>

    Thermodynamics For Dummies: You can't win.
    You can't break even.
    You can't get out of the game.
    Matthew L. Martin, Oct 23, 2003
    #19
  20. BiG_Orange

    Smaug69 Guest

    "Biz" <> wrote in message news:<xqXlb.12119$>...
    > Some of you really need to read up on whats available and ways to get HDTV
    > no matter where you live. Almost all of the scripted primetime programming
    > from all 4 of the major networks is now broadcast in Hi-Def. If you live
    > within 70 miles or so of a decent metro area, they most likely are already
    > making HD content available OTA. Antennnas capable of receiving the
    > programming can be mounted inside, like the TERK. If you want to make
    > excuses, at least get your facts straight.


    I got the facts straight, bub. That's why I haven't bought an HDTV
    yet. Only a tiny fraction of the overall programming is available in
    HD and there is no disc-based HD media yet. The major networks'
    primetime programming is the last reason for me to upgrade to HDTV.
    When I see more sports events and more basic cable programming in HD
    and an HD media that isn't tape based then I will dive in head first.

    Smaug69
    Smaug69, Oct 24, 2003
    #20
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