HD/BR DVD Re-releases

Discussion in 'DVD Video' started by J, Dec 19, 2005.

  1. J

    J Guest

    When will, say Star Trek, DVD sets be re-released in high definition
    versions? I'm assuming it will happen, except maybe for TNG, but especially
    for ENT.

    For old non-film stuff, effects in TNG for example, what was the original
    storage medium? Was it rendered and/or stored in anything more than NTSC
    resolution.
    J, Dec 19, 2005
    #1
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  2. J

    Biz Guest

    "J" <> wrote in message
    news:4BCpf.810$%...
    > When will, say Star Trek, DVD sets be re-released in high definition
    > versions? I'm assuming it will happen, except maybe for TNG, but

    especially
    > for ENT.
    >
    > For old non-film stuff, effects in TNG for example, what was the original
    > storage medium? Was it rendered and/or stored in anything more than NTSC
    > resolution.
    >
    >

    More importantly, when are the players going to be released? There are
    still no firm realese dates for players...which is definitely affecting the
    software releases....
    Biz, Dec 19, 2005
    #2
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  3. J

    Jeff Rife Guest

    J () wrote in alt.video.dvd:
    > For old non-film stuff, effects in TNG for example, what was the original
    > storage medium? Was it rendered and/or stored in anything more than NTSC
    > resolution.


    AFAIK, *all* Star Trek series except "Enterprise" had SD FX and were
    finished to standard 480i videotape. There are no original elements
    available (or not enough to matter) for either the live action or the FX.

    It's interesting that shows from the 50s and 60s that were shot on film
    and still have the original film intact end up looking far better on both
    DVD and HD than do most shows from the 70s to the early 90s.

    --
    Jeff Rife | "I have a question that could affect our entire
    | relationship...did you kill Coach Mattay?"
    | "No!"
    | "But, you did dress him up like a woman...?"
    | "Yeah."
    | "Just checking."
    | -- Alex Lambert and Brian Hackett, "Wings"
    Jeff Rife, Dec 19, 2005
    #3
  4. J

    afiggatt Guest

    J wrote:
    > When will, say Star Trek, DVD sets be re-released in high definition
    > versions? I'm assuming it will happen, except maybe for TNG, but especially
    > for ENT.
    >
    > For old non-film stuff, effects in TNG for example, what was the original
    > storage medium? Was it rendered and/or stored in anything more than NTSC
    > resolution.


    Depends on the show, what technology they used for special effects and
    whether the show was edited on film or video. TV shows from the 1960s
    and 70s were mostly shot & edited on 35 mm film. These could be redone
    in HD if good quality 35mm masters still exist. See Hogans Heroes and
    Charlie's Angels on HDNet for example.

    But by the 80s & 90s, a lot of shows were still shot on 35mm (and
    still are), but the editing and special effects stuff was done on video.
    TO create an HD version, they might have to go back to the original 35mm
    film and re-edit it from the 35 mm originals. Expensive to do this. If
    the special effects were done on SD video - as I gather TNG was - then
    they would have to redo the special effects in HD if they want it to
    look good. Even more expensive and unlikely to be done anytime soon
    except maybe for the most popular shows.

    Nothing to stop them from upconverting some of older shows from video
    or a mix of 35 mm & upconverted SD special effects shots and selling
    them as HD versions cropped to 16:9. I bet some of the studios will do
    just that.

    Alan F
    afiggatt, Dec 19, 2005
    #4
  5. J

    Joshua Zyber Guest

    "Jeff Rife" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > AFAIK, *all* Star Trek series except "Enterprise" had SD FX and were
    > finished to standard 480i videotape.


    Except for the original 1960s series, which had optically composited
    special effects full post-produced on film.

    I believe even Enterprise's CGI was rendered at standard-definition and
    upconverted for the HD broadcast.
    Joshua Zyber, Dec 19, 2005
    #5
  6. J

    J Guest

    "Joshua Zyber" <> wrote in message
    news:EtHpf.7142$...
    > "Jeff Rife" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> AFAIK, *all* Star Trek series except "Enterprise" had SD FX and were
    >> finished to standard 480i videotape.

    >
    > Except for the original 1960s series, which had optically composited
    > special effects full post-produced on film.
    >
    > I believe even Enterprise's CGI was rendered at standard-definition and
    > upconverted for the HD broadcast.


    Seems to me somewhat shortsighted, esp. in the case of Enterprise. Second,
    why would you throw away the original film? They only had to keep the 40
    min. that ended up in the show. Third, even in TNG era they knew about HD
    so they could've done the fx in hd & maybe transferred that to film or
    whatever. But I guess Q4 profits are all that matter...
    J, Dec 20, 2005
    #6
  7. J

    J Guest

    "afiggatt" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >J wrote:
    >> When will, say Star Trek, DVD sets be re-released in high definition
    >> versions? I'm assuming it will happen, except maybe for TNG, but
    >> especially for ENT.
    >>
    >> For old non-film stuff, effects in TNG for example, what was the original
    >> storage medium? Was it rendered and/or stored in anything more than NTSC
    >> resolution.

    >
    > Depends on the show, what technology they used for special effects and
    > whether the show was edited on film or video. TV shows from the 1960s and
    > 70s were mostly shot & edited on 35 mm film. These could be redone in HD
    > if good quality 35mm masters still exist. See Hogans Heroes and Charlie's
    > Angels on HDNet for example.
    >
    > But by the 80s & 90s, a lot of shows were still shot on 35mm (and still
    > are), but the editing and special effects stuff was done on video. TO
    > create an HD version, they might have to go back to the original 35mm film
    > and re-edit it from the 35 mm originals. Expensive to do this. If the
    > special effects were done on SD video - as I gather TNG was - then they
    > would have to redo the special effects in HD if they want it to look good.
    > Even more expensive and unlikely to be done anytime soon except maybe for
    > the most popular shows.


    Thanks for replying. As a slight aside, TNG at least season 5, has this
    issue with the fx: they look really good and contrasty but the live action
    is washed out and soft. Probly indicates that they did throw away the film.
    Not sure tho since I haven't seen the other seasons & I think they're
    better.
    J, Dec 20, 2005
    #7
  8. J

    Jeff Rife Guest

    Joshua Zyber () wrote in alt.video.dvd:
    > "Jeff Rife" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    > > AFAIK, *all* Star Trek series except "Enterprise" had SD FX and were
    > > finished to standard 480i videotape.

    >
    > Except for the original 1960s series, which had optically composited
    > special effects full post-produced on film.


    Seriously? I thought the finals were on video due to cost. It's nice
    to know it wasn't.

    > I believe even Enterprise's CGI was rendered at standard-definition and
    > upconverted for the HD broadcast.


    I've heard both ways, so I don't know.

    --
    Jeff Rife |
    | http://www.nabs.net/Cartoons/MotherGooseAndGrimm/GatewaySource.gif
    Jeff Rife, Dec 20, 2005
    #8
  9. J

    Jeff Rife Guest

    J () wrote in alt.video.dvd:
    > Seems to me somewhat shortsighted, esp. in the case of Enterprise. Second,
    > why would you throw away the original film? They only had to keep the 40
    > min. that ended up in the show.


    For "Enterprise", it's likely that they tossed the film since they stored
    the final on HD digital tape. For TNG, DS9 and Voyager, the film didn't
    have any of the FX, so keeping it buys you very little, since to redo the
    FX for a DVD (or HD-DVD) would make a season set about 10x more expensive
    than the outrageous prices Paramount already charges.

    > Third, even in TNG era they knew about HD


    They really didn't. TNG started in 1987, and even big-time CGI in movies
    like T2 (1991) and "Jurassic Park" (1993) weren't rendered at full HD
    resolutions. "2K" rendering (2048x1365 for the full 35mm frame) didn't
    really hit until 2000 or so. Before that, something on the order of
    1500x1000 or so would have been the upper limit, but even that was only
    available to big-budget movies.

    --
    Jeff Rife |
    | http://www.nabs.net/Cartoons/Zits/CheckTheGigabytes.gif
    Jeff Rife, Dec 20, 2005
    #9
  10. J

    Jeff Rife Guest

    afiggatt () wrote in alt.video.dvd:
    > But by the 80s & 90s, a lot of shows were still shot on 35mm (and
    > still are), but the editing and special effects stuff was done on video.
    > TO create an HD version, they might have to go back to the original 35mm
    > film and re-edit it from the 35 mm originals. Expensive to do this.


    One amazing exception is "Cheers", where the DVDs are sourced from HD
    telecines of the original film re-edited to as closely match the final tape
    episode as they could manage.

    Yes, that's incredibly expensive, but it hasn't show up in the DVD pricing,
    thank goodness.

    I know HDNet has a deal with Paramount, and I'm waiting for "Cheers" to show
    up there.

    --
    Jeff Rife | copy protection: n. A class of methods for
    | preventing incompetent pirates from stealing
    | software and legitimate customers from using it.
    | Considered silly.
    | -- Jargon File version 4.4.6
    Jeff Rife, Dec 20, 2005
    #10
  11. J

    J Guest

    "Jeff Rife" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >J () wrote in alt.video.dvd:
    >> Seems to me somewhat shortsighted, esp. in the case of Enterprise.
    >> Second,
    >> why would you throw away the original film? They only had to keep the 40
    >> min. that ended up in the show.

    >
    > For "Enterprise", it's likely that they tossed the film since they stored
    > the final on HD digital tape. For TNG, DS9 and Voyager, the film didn't
    > have any of the FX, so keeping it buys you very little, since to redo the
    > FX for a DVD (or HD-DVD) would make a season set about 10x more expensive
    > than the outrageous prices Paramount already charges.
    >
    >> Third, even in TNG era they knew about
    >> HD

    >
    > They really didn't. TNG started in 1987, and even big-time CGI in movies
    > like T2 (1991) and "Jurassic Park" (1993) weren't rendered at full HD
    > resolutions. "2K" rendering (2048x1365 for the full 35mm frame) didn't
    > really hit until 2000 or so. Before that, something on the order of
    > 1500x1000 or so would have been the upper limit, but even that was only
    > available to big-budget movies.


    Assuming your info is accurate then, we can forget about any pre-ENT
    rereleases, except maybe VOY S7 which ended in 2001 I think. I wonder where
    one could find the technical details like resolutions, software used, etc.,
    for a particular show. That would all be v. interesting.
    J, Dec 20, 2005
    #11
  12. On Mon, 19 Dec 2005 17:10:04 -0500, Jeff Rife <> Gave
    us:

    >J () wrote in alt.video.dvd:
    >> For old non-film stuff, effects in TNG for example, what was the original
    >> storage medium? Was it rendered and/or stored in anything more than NTSC
    >> resolution.

    >
    >AFAIK, *all* Star Trek series except "Enterprise" had SD FX and were
    >finished to standard 480i videotape. There are no original elements
    >available (or not enough to matter) for either the live action or the FX.
    >
    >It's interesting that shows from the 50s and 60s that were shot on film
    >and still have the original film intact end up looking far better on both
    >DVD and HD than do most shows from the 70s to the early 90s.


    Many are good. "Kung Fu" is pretty good. "Greatest American Hero"
    is pretty good...
    NunYa Bidness, Dec 20, 2005
    #12
  13. On Mon, 19 Dec 2005 22:15:00 -0500, "J" <> Gave
    us:

    >
    >"Joshua Zyber" <> wrote in message
    >news:EtHpf.7142$...
    >> "Jeff Rife" <> wrote in message
    >> news:...
    >>> AFAIK, *all* Star Trek series except "Enterprise" had SD FX and were
    >>> finished to standard 480i videotape.

    >>
    >> Except for the original 1960s series, which had optically composited
    >> special effects full post-produced on film.
    >>
    >> I believe even Enterprise's CGI was rendered at standard-definition and
    >> upconverted for the HD broadcast.

    >
    >Seems to me somewhat shortsighted, esp. in the case of Enterprise. Second,
    >why would you throw away the original film? They only had to keep the 40
    >min. that ended up in the show.


    52 minutes per episode, for the original series.

    I have noted longer commercial breaks in today's stuff though.
    I have to typically wait through 5 to 8 commercials, and it used to be
    a mere 3 to 5 in the seventies.

    > Third, even in TNG era they knew about HD
    >so they could've done the fx in hd & maybe transferred that to film or
    >whatever. But I guess Q4 profits are all that matter...
    >

    Depends on one's long term foresight (studio execs). If they had
    any brains at all, they would capture and store at the absolute
    highest res possible.

    It can only mean greater sales numbers among discerning consumers at
    some point along the way.
    NunYa Bidness, Dec 20, 2005
    #13
  14. On Mon, 19 Dec 2005 23:45:49 -0500, Jeff Rife <> Gave
    us:

    >I know HDNet has a deal with Paramount, and I'm waiting for "Cheers" to show
    >up there.



    How well was "Taxi" done?
    NunYa Bidness, Dec 20, 2005
    #14
  15. J

    Joshua Zyber Guest

    "Jeff Rife" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > One amazing exception is "Cheers", where the DVDs are sourced from HD
    > telecines of the original film re-edited to as closely match the final
    > tape
    > episode as they could manage.


    Did they do that for Cheers? I thought that only happened for Seinfeld?
    Joshua Zyber, Dec 20, 2005
    #15
  16. J

    Goro Guest

    afiggatt wrote:
    > J wrote:
    > > When will, say Star Trek, DVD sets be re-released in high definition
    > > versions? I'm assuming it will happen, except maybe for TNG, but especially
    > > for ENT.
    > >
    > > For old non-film stuff, effects in TNG for example, what was the original
    > > storage medium? Was it rendered and/or stored in anything more than NTSC
    > > resolution.

    >
    > Depends on the show, what technology they used for special effects and
    > whether the show was edited on film or video. TV shows from the 1960s
    > and 70s were mostly shot & edited on 35 mm film. These could be redone
    > in HD if good quality 35mm masters still exist. See Hogans Heroes and
    > Charlie's Angels on HDNet for example.
    >
    > But by the 80s & 90s, a lot of shows were still shot on 35mm (and
    > still are), but the editing and special effects stuff was done on video.
    > TO create an HD version, they might have to go back to the original 35mm
    > film and re-edit it from the 35 mm originals. Expensive to do this. If
    > the special effects were done on SD video - as I gather TNG was - then
    > they would have to redo the special effects in HD if they want it to
    > look good. Even more expensive and unlikely to be done anytime soon
    > except maybe for the most popular shows.


    More expensive to do this? That means Paramount would end up selling
    the ST season sets for, what, $300 a season?!

    -goro-

    > Nothing to stop them from upconverting some of older shows from video
    > or a mix of 35 mm & upconverted SD special effects shots and selling
    > them as HD versions cropped to 16:9. I bet some of the studios will do
    > just that.
    >
    > Alan F
    Goro, Dec 20, 2005
    #16
  17. J

    Jeff Rife Guest

    Joshua Zyber () wrote in alt.video.dvd:
    > "Jeff Rife" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    > > One amazing exception is "Cheers", where the DVDs are sourced from HD
    > > telecines of the original film re-edited to as closely match the final
    > > tape
    > > episode as they could manage.

    >
    > Did they do that for Cheers? I thought that only happened for Seinfeld?


    "Cheers" was originally edited on tape for the final show (although there
    was some film editing done, of course), so it was a monumental task for
    that show. AFAIK, "Seinfeld" was edited on film for the final, then
    that was converted to videotape. So, all they needed to do for "Seinfeld"
    was grab the final film edit and telecine at HD. "Cheers" required
    *finding* the material to do the edits, and I heard they weren't 100%
    successful, so the DVDs might be very slightly different from the first
    run.

    Like all Paramount series, I'm waiting until the entire show is available
    before I buy (because the price is so much cheaper that way), so I can't
    say.

    --
    Jeff Rife |
    | http://www.nabs.net/Cartoons/OverTheHedge/ShatnerHair.gif
    Jeff Rife, Dec 20, 2005
    #17
  18. J

    Jeff Rife Guest

    NunYa Bidness () wrote in alt.video.dvd:
    > On Mon, 19 Dec 2005 23:45:49 -0500, Jeff Rife <> Gave
    > us:
    >
    > >I know HDNet has a deal with Paramount, and I'm waiting for "Cheers" to show
    > >up there.

    >
    >
    > How well was "Taxi" done?


    ISTR this was one of those that came to DVD from videotape, and looks OK
    but not stunning.

    --
    Jeff Rife |
    | http://www.nabs.net/Cartoons/OverTheHedge/TeriHatcher.gif
    Jeff Rife, Dec 20, 2005
    #18
  19. J

    Joshua Zyber Guest

    "Jeff Rife" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > "Cheers" was originally edited on tape for the final show (although
    > there
    > was some film editing done, of course), so it was a monumental task
    > for
    > that show. AFAIK, "Seinfeld" was edited on film for the final, then
    > that was converted to videotape. So, all they needed to do for
    > "Seinfeld"
    > was grab the final film edit and telecine at HD. "Cheers" required
    > *finding* the material to do the edits, and I heard they weren't 100%
    > successful, so the DVDs might be very slightly different from the
    > first
    > run.


    I'm pretty sure that when the first season of Seinfeld was released they
    promoted it as having undergone that exact "complete re-editing from the
    original film elements" process, though I may be confusing it with
    Cheers.
    Joshua Zyber, Dec 21, 2005
    #19
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