Guy on Fair Go tonight

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by Lawrence D¹Oliveiro, Mar 30, 2005.

  1. I don't normally watch Fair Go, but the mention of "computers" caught my
    ear this evening.

    This guy bought a laptop from a shop in town, and the hard drive failed
    after just 2 months. Getting a replacement hard drive was no problem,
    but--wait for it--he had neglected to back up his important data, and
    that's where the dispute starts. It is apparently possible to retrieve
    the data, but it would cost $700-$1500, I think it was. He thinks that
    should be covered under the warranty, but neither the shop (Recycled
    Technology--I've dealt with them, and haven't had any bad experiences
    myself) nor Fujitsu, the hard drive manufacturer, is willing to cover
    that.

    The guy from the shop was interviewed on TV, and said that the safeguard
    against "consequential damages" in the Consumer Guarantees Act didn't
    apply, as the customer hadn't taken "reasonable" precautions to protect
    his data--i.e. do a backup.

    What do other folks think? It's not as though it's a big secret that
    hard disks are unreliable. Even a new drive isn't necessarily more
    reliable than an old one--I've had a drive fail (start to develop read
    errors) after two months myself.
    Lawrence D¹Oliveiro, Mar 30, 2005
    #1
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  2. Lawrence D¹Oliveiro said the following on 30/03/2005 8:33 p.m.:
    > I don't normally watch Fair Go, but the mention of "computers" caught my
    > ear this evening.
    >
    > This guy bought a laptop from a shop in town, and the hard drive failed
    > after just 2 months. Getting a replacement hard drive was no problem,
    > but--wait for it--he had neglected to back up his important data, and
    > that's where the dispute starts. It is apparently possible to retrieve
    > the data, but it would cost $700-$1500, I think it was. He thinks that
    > should be covered under the warranty, but neither the shop (Recycled
    > Technology--I've dealt with them, and haven't had any bad experiences
    > myself) nor Fujitsu, the hard drive manufacturer, is willing to cover
    > that.
    >
    > The guy from the shop was interviewed on TV, and said that the safeguard
    > against "consequential damages" in the Consumer Guarantees Act didn't
    > apply, as the customer hadn't taken "reasonable" precautions to protect
    > his data--i.e. do a backup.
    >
    > What do other folks think? It's not as though it's a big secret that
    > hard disks are unreliable. Even a new drive isn't necessarily more
    > reliable than an old one--I've had a drive fail (start to develop read
    > errors) after two months myself.

    I with the Shop guy, the customer didnt use it correctly if he didnt
    keep it backed up, its an accepted practice to backup.



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    Collector»NZ, Mar 30, 2005
    #2
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  3. In <> Lawrence D¹Oliveiro
    wrote:

    > This guy bought a laptop from a shop in town, and the hard drive
    > failed after just 2 months. Getting a replacement hard drive was no
    > problem, but--wait for it--he had neglected to back up his important
    > data, and that's where the dispute starts. It is apparently possible
    > to retrieve the data, but it would cost $700-$1500, I think it was.
    > He thinks that should be covered under the warranty, but neither the
    > shop (Recycled Technology--I've dealt with them, and haven't had any
    > bad experiences myself) nor Fujitsu, the hard drive manufacturer, is
    > willing to cover that.

    <snip>
    > What do other folks think? It's not as though it's a big secret that
    > hard disks are unreliable.


    It never ceases to amaze me how careless people are when it comes to
    backing up. I don't see why the retailer or manufacturer should be
    liable for this guy's complacency and stupidity.

    If the laptop had been stolen, would he have expected his insurance
    company to fork out the $700+ for data recovery? If so, I suspect they
    would have laughed him out of the room.

    --
    Regards, Alastair.
    Wellington, New Zealand
    My real email address is alasta@b1gf00+.c0m (change the obvious).

    Any views expressed in this posting are personal and its content remains
    the property of Alastair. Alastair accepts no responsibility for any
    misinformation resulting from this posting.
    Alastair McAllister, Mar 30, 2005
    #3
  4. Lawrence D¹Oliveiro

    John B Guest

    Thing that got me about Fair Go tonnight was the young guy getting traffic
    tickets while he was overseas. Some people knew his name, birth date etc. They
    told cops they didn't have their licence on them and gave them this young fellas
    details.

    Anyway he has been trying to get ot sorted for 2? years.

    The cops fucked up. But now they want him to sign forms, which give the cops
    even more details about himself, to get those tickets and fines wiped. He
    doesn't want to.

    Shouldn't have to either, it wasn't his ****-up. Those who fucked up should fix
    it up and be sacked. Yeah right.
    John B, Mar 30, 2005
    #4
  5. Lawrence D¹Oliveiro

    S Roby Guest

    What if (say) the Hard Drive was known to have reliablity issues,
    ie if the HD was a particularly unreliable model.
    Who would be responsible for the lost data then???
    S Roby, Mar 30, 2005
    #5
  6. Lawrence D¹Oliveiro

    Bok Guest

    Lawrence D¹Oliveiro wrote:
    > I don't normally watch Fair Go, but the mention of "computers" caught my
    > ear this evening.
    >

    [snip]
    >
    > The guy from the shop was interviewed on TV, and said that the safeguard
    > against "consequential damages" in the Consumer Guarantees Act didn't
    > apply, as the customer hadn't taken "reasonable" precautions to protect
    > his data--i.e. do a backup.
    >
    > What do other folks think? It's not as though it's a big secret that
    > hard disks are unreliable. Even a new drive isn't necessarily more
    > reliable than an old one--I've had a drive fail (start to develop read
    > errors) after two months myself.


    Unfortunately, too many people learn about the value of backups the hard
    way. Hopefully, he has taken that lesson on board at least.

    The retailer is correct, there is no precedent that will cover for loss
    of data in this scenario, nor should there be.
    Bok, Mar 30, 2005
    #6
  7. In article <>,
    Alastair McAllister <> wrote:

    >In <> Lawrence D1Oliveiro
    >wrote:
    >
    >> This guy bought a laptop from a shop in town, and the hard drive
    >> failed after just 2 months. Getting a replacement hard drive was no
    >> problem, but--wait for it--he had neglected to back up his important
    >> data, and that's where the dispute starts. It is apparently possible
    >> to retrieve the data, but it would cost $700-$1500, I think it was.
    >> He thinks that should be covered under the warranty, but neither the
    >> shop ... nor Fujitsu, the hard drive manufacturer, is
    >> willing to cover that.

    >
    >It never ceases to amaze me how careless people are when it comes to
    >backing up. I don't see why the retailer or manufacturer should be
    >liable for this guy's complacency and stupidity.


    He's taken it to the Disputes Tribunal. The Fair Go presenter said they
    would report back on the verdict.

    >If the laptop had been stolen, would he have expected his insurance
    >company to fork out the $700+ for data recovery?


    Provided he was insured against such consequential data loss, then no
    reason why they shouldn't pay out. You can insure against all kinds of
    things, if you're prepared to pay enough.
    Lawrence D¹Oliveiro, Mar 30, 2005
    #7
  8. Lawrence D¹Oliveiro

    GraB Guest

    On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 20:33:19 +1200, Lawrence D¹Oliveiro
    <_zealand> wrote:

    >I don't normally watch Fair Go, but the mention of "computers" caught my
    >ear this evening.
    >
    >This guy bought a laptop from a shop in town, and the hard drive failed
    >after just 2 months. Getting a replacement hard drive was no problem,
    >but--wait for it--he had neglected to back up his important data, and
    >that's where the dispute starts. It is apparently possible to retrieve
    >the data, but it would cost $700-$1500, I think it was. He thinks that
    >should be covered under the warranty, but neither the shop (Recycled
    >Technology--I've dealt with them, and haven't had any bad experiences
    >myself) nor Fujitsu, the hard drive manufacturer, is willing to cover
    >that.
    >
    >The guy from the shop was interviewed on TV, and said that the safeguard
    >against "consequential damages" in the Consumer Guarantees Act didn't
    >apply, as the customer hadn't taken "reasonable" precautions to protect
    >his data--i.e. do a backup.
    >
    >What do other folks think? It's not as though it's a big secret that
    >hard disks are unreliable. Even a new drive isn't necessarily more
    >reliable than an old one--I've had a drive fail (start to develop read
    >errors) after two months myself.


    It is essential to backup. There are virusses to consider too, and
    for a laptop, theft.
    GraB, Mar 30, 2005
    #8
  9. Lawrence D¹Oliveiro

    Bok Guest

    S Roby wrote:
    > What if (say) the Hard Drive was known to have reliablity issues,
    > ie if the HD was a particularly unreliable model.
    > Who would be responsible for the lost data then???


    Caveat Emptor!

    No HDD manufacturer is likely to cover data loss this in their warranty
    and there are no legal precendents that hold the manufacturer (or
    retailer) responsible that I'm aware of.
    Bok, Mar 30, 2005
    #9
  10. Lawrence D¹Oliveiro

    Ray Greene Guest

    On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 20:33:19 +1200, Lawrence D¹Oliveiro
    <_zealand> wrote:

    >I don't normally watch Fair Go, but the mention of "computers" caught my
    >ear this evening.
    >
    >This guy bought a laptop from a shop in town, and the hard drive failed
    >after just 2 months. Getting a replacement hard drive was no problem,
    >but--wait for it--he had neglected to back up his important data, and
    >that's where the dispute starts. It is apparently possible to retrieve
    >the data, but it would cost $700-$1500, I think it was. He thinks that
    >should be covered under the warranty, but neither the shop (Recycled
    >Technology--I've dealt with them, and haven't had any bad experiences
    >myself) nor Fujitsu, the hard drive manufacturer, is willing to cover
    >that.
    >
    >The guy from the shop was interviewed on TV, and said that the safeguard
    >against "consequential damages" in the Consumer Guarantees Act didn't
    >apply, as the customer hadn't taken "reasonable" precautions to protect
    >his data--i.e. do a backup.
    >
    >What do other folks think? It's not as though it's a big secret that
    >hard disks are unreliable. Even a new drive isn't necessarily more
    >reliable than an old one--I've had a drive fail (start to develop read
    >errors) after two months myself.


    It's not a big secret to anyone who knows a bit about computers, but how much
    did this guy know? I wonder if the guy at the computer shop told him "These
    things are unreliable. If you don't back up your data regularly the hard
    drive might die and you'll lose everything. And it'll be your problem, not
    ours".

    In all the years I've involved with computers I've never heard of a customer
    being told that when buying a new PC. Should people have to learn that stuff
    the hard way? Would it cost shops anything to print off a sheet of simple
    information like this for new owners?

    --
    Ray Greene.
    Ray Greene, Mar 30, 2005
    #10
  11. Lawrence D¹Oliveiro

    Crash Guest

    Bok wrote:
    > S Roby wrote:
    >> What if (say) the Hard Drive was known to have reliablity issues,
    >> ie if the HD was a particularly unreliable model.
    >> Who would be responsible for the lost data then???

    >
    > Caveat Emptor!
    >
    > No HDD manufacturer is likely to cover data loss this in their
    > warranty and there are no legal precendents that hold the
    > manufacturer (or retailer) responsible that I'm aware of.


    I agree. Manufacturers will always cover just the cost of fault repair or
    replacement only. The loss of data from a disk drive is a consequence of
    use and manufacturers NEVER cover consequential loss in my experience.

    Crash.
    Crash, Mar 30, 2005
    #11
  12. Lawrence D¹Oliveiro

    Enkidu Guest

    Bok wrote:
    > S Roby wrote:
    >
    >> What if (say) the Hard Drive was known to have reliablity issues, ie
    >> if the HD was a particularly unreliable model.
    >> Who would be responsible for the lost data then???

    >
    >
    > Caveat Emptor!
    >
    > No HDD manufacturer is likely to cover data loss this in their warranty
    > and there are no legal precendents that hold the manufacturer (or
    > retailer) responsible that I'm aware of.
    >

    What happened to that class action against Fujitsu? I meant
    to follow that story because I had a number of those failing
    disks.

    Cheers,

    Cliff

    --

    Barzoomian the Martian - http://barzoomian.blogspot.com
    Enkidu, Mar 30, 2005
    #12
  13. Lawrence D¹Oliveiro

    Bok Guest

    Ray Greene wrote:

    > In all the years I've involved with computers I've never heard of a customer
    > being told that when buying a new PC. Should people have to learn that stuff
    > the hard way?

    Preferably not, some education would help.

    > Would it cost shops anything to print off a sheet of simple
    > information like this for new owners?

    Yes, that would be a good start. Surely, some of the smaller outfits
    give their customers advice about the importance of backups - do they
    not ???

    Reminds me of a case 8 to 10 years back when some friends called me to
    sort out problem(s) with their PC. It turns out the file system was
    corrupted. I managed to recover it to some extent, but inevitably there
    was some data loss. I noticed there was a box of 3.5" floppy drives
    close to the PC, so I asked them when they last did a backup.

    [Incidentally, the stuff that was important to them would have fit on a
    couple of floppies].

    They replied with something like: what's a backup?? So I asked what do
    you use these (floppy disks) for? They said, we don't know what they are
    for, the person who sold us this machine said we might need them. Duh!
    Bok, Mar 30, 2005
    #13
  14. Lawrence D¹Oliveiro

    joe_90 Guest

    Lawrence D¹Oliveiro wrote:

    > What do other folks think? It's not as though it's a big secret that
    > hard disks are unreliable. Even a new drive isn't necessarily more
    > reliable than an old one--I've had a drive fail (start to develop read
    > errors) after two months myself.


    Dumb complaint presented in such a simplistic manner that is was
    worthless and quite misleading.

    The suggestion that the disk drive seals only have to be broken to
    magically retrieve the data was laughable. The presenter proposed one
    solution where the high street retailer does this. How? is he supposed
    to open the case on the bench and just lift the data out or something?

    If this guy wins his claim we can expect higher disk drive prices to
    cover the cost of insuring dumb users.
    joe_90, Mar 30, 2005
    #14
  15. Lawrence D¹Oliveiro

    Bok Guest

    joe_90 wrote:
    > The suggestion that the disk drive seals only have to be broken to
    > magically retrieve the data was laughable. The presenter proposed one
    > solution where the high street retailer does this. How? is he supposed
    > to open the case on the bench and just lift the data out or something?


    I didn't see the program. Did they explain what the fault was?

    If it was just a logic card failure, then some retailers with technical
    expertise, *might* offer to recover the data by swapping cards with a
    working drive. If it was a media failure they might be able to acheive a
    partial data recovery. Serious media or head failures require special
    equipment, which the average PC retailer isn't likely to have lying around.

    I was able to recover data for a friend once from an HDD with a borked
    logic card, only because I had a drive of the right type available. [All
    their IDE devices were fried following a power supply fault]. I don't
    repair things for a living btw, that was a one off (of that type anyway).
    Bok, Mar 30, 2005
    #15
  16. Lawrence D¹Oliveiro

    Jedmeister Guest

    "Lawrence D¹Oliveiro" <_zealand> wrote in message
    news:...
    > In article <>,
    > Alastair McAllister <> wrote:
    >
    >>In <> Lawrence D1Oliveiro
    >>wrote:
    >>
    >>> This guy bought a laptop from a shop in town, and the hard drive
    >>> failed after just 2 months. Getting a replacement hard drive was no
    >>> problem, but--wait for it--he had neglected to back up his important
    >>> data, and that's where the dispute starts. It is apparently possible
    >>> to retrieve the data, but it would cost $700-$1500, I think it was.
    >>> He thinks that should be covered under the warranty, but neither the
    >>> shop ... nor Fujitsu, the hard drive manufacturer, is
    >>> willing to cover that.

    >>
    >>It never ceases to amaze me how careless people are when it comes to
    >>backing up. I don't see why the retailer or manufacturer should be
    >>liable for this guy's complacency and stupidity.

    >
    > He's taken it to the Disputes Tribunal. The Fair Go presenter said they
    > would report back on the verdict.
    >
    >>If the laptop had been stolen, would he have expected his insurance
    >>company to fork out the $700+ for data recovery?

    >
    > Provided he was insured against such consequential data loss, then no
    > reason why they shouldn't pay out. You can insure against all kinds of
    > things, if you're prepared to pay enough.


    Take it to the extreme example - if he lost 5million dollars worth of
    business due to data loss - why should the retailer or fujitsu be
    responsible since if the data is so important it should be backed up - they
    have no control over the customers disaster recovery process.
    Jedmeister, Mar 30, 2005
    #16
  17. Lawrence D¹Oliveiro

    Dave Taylor Guest

    Bok <> wrote in news:424a7f63$:

    > joe_90 wrote:
    >> The suggestion that the disk drive seals only have to be broken to
    >> magically retrieve the data was laughable. The presenter proposed one
    >> solution where the high street retailer does this. How? is he
    >> supposed to open the case on the bench and just lift the data out or
    >> something?

    >
    > I didn't see the program. Did they explain what the fault was?
    >
    > If it was just a logic card failure, then some retailers with
    > technical expertise, *might* offer to recover the data by swapping
    > cards with a working drive. If it was a media failure they might be
    > able to acheive a partial data recovery. Serious media or head
    > failures require special equipment, which the average PC retailer
    > isn't likely to have lying around.
    >
    > I was able to recover data for a friend once from an HDD with a borked
    > logic card, only because I had a drive of the right type available.
    > [All their IDE devices were fried following a power supply fault]. I
    > don't repair things for a living btw, that was a one off (of that type
    > anyway).
    >


    I agree, but the interviewer never asked these technical questions. In
    any case, no backups, no data is my position. The guy was already making
    backups so he knew he should... The person who had the drive failure can
    follow normal data recovery channels to see if he wants it back. Some
    places have a no data recovered no cost policy.


    --
    Ciao, Dave
    Dave Taylor, Mar 30, 2005
    #17
  18. Lawrence D¹Oliveiro

    simondo Guest

    Alastair McAllister wrote:

    > In <> Lawrence D¹Oliveiro
    > wrote:


    <snip>

    > It never ceases to amaze me how careless people are when it comes to
    > backing up. I don't see why the retailer or manufacturer should be
    > liable for this guy's complacency and stupidity.
    >
    > If the laptop had been stolen, would he have expected his insurance
    > company to fork out the $700+ for data recovery? If so, I suspect they
    > would have laughed him out of the room.
    >


    There are people who'll recover your data when someone else has the hard
    drive? Who are they? PIs? The CIA? Can't be the SIS -- they're too busy
    leaving suitcases full of porn and sandwiches lying around.
    simondo, Mar 30, 2005
    #18
  19. Lawrence D¹Oliveiro

    Tim Guest

    It all begs the question about him saying he had been too busy to do the
    backup that specific night. He was quite specific about ONE nights backup
    that he missed. So how much data did he add / change on the HDD to make it
    so valuable that he has to recover the data.

    The consequence of this is that I do not believe the story itself. It does
    not wash as the complainant is spending more time jumping up and down than
    it would take to rekey or recreate all the data lost. This implies that
    either he is fibbing about backups completely, or is staging this complaint,
    or somehow has managed to come across a datasource that cannot be
    recreated - on a laptop!

    Hmmmmm smells fishy.








    "Dave Taylor" <> wrote in message
    news:Xns9629E7BA478F7daveytaynospamplshot@203.97.37.6...
    > Bok <> wrote in news:424a7f63$:
    >
    >> joe_90 wrote:
    >>> The suggestion that the disk drive seals only have to be broken to
    >>> magically retrieve the data was laughable. The presenter proposed one
    >>> solution where the high street retailer does this. How? is he
    >>> supposed to open the case on the bench and just lift the data out or
    >>> something?

    >>
    >> I didn't see the program. Did they explain what the fault was?
    >>
    >> If it was just a logic card failure, then some retailers with
    >> technical expertise, *might* offer to recover the data by swapping
    >> cards with a working drive. If it was a media failure they might be
    >> able to acheive a partial data recovery. Serious media or head
    >> failures require special equipment, which the average PC retailer
    >> isn't likely to have lying around.
    >>
    >> I was able to recover data for a friend once from an HDD with a borked
    >> logic card, only because I had a drive of the right type available.
    >> [All their IDE devices were fried following a power supply fault]. I
    >> don't repair things for a living btw, that was a one off (of that type
    >> anyway).
    >>

    >
    > I agree, but the interviewer never asked these technical questions. In
    > any case, no backups, no data is my position. The guy was already making
    > backups so he knew he should... The person who had the drive failure can
    > follow normal data recovery channels to see if he wants it back. Some
    > places have a no data recovered no cost policy.
    >
    >
    > --
    > Ciao, Dave
    Tim, Mar 30, 2005
    #19
  20. Lawrence D¹Oliveiro

    MarkH Guest

    Lawrence D¹Oliveiro <_zealand> wrote in news:ldo-
    :

    > This guy bought a laptop from a shop in town, and the hard drive failed
    > after just 2 months. Getting a replacement hard drive was no problem,
    > but--wait for it--he had neglected to back up his important data, and
    > that's where the dispute starts. It is apparently possible to retrieve
    > the data, but it would cost $700-$1500, I think it was. He thinks that
    > should be covered under the warranty, but neither the shop (Recycled
    > Technology--I've dealt with them, and haven't had any bad experiences
    > myself) nor Fujitsu, the hard drive manufacturer, is willing to cover
    > that.
    >
    > The guy from the shop was interviewed on TV, and said that the safeguard
    > against "consequential damages" in the Consumer Guarantees Act didn't
    > apply, as the customer hadn't taken "reasonable" precautions to protect
    > his data--i.e. do a backup.


    The guy from the shop is right, if the data wasn't important enough to
    backup then it's not worth the cost to recover it.


    Here's a good way for a retailer to handle it:

    Customer: What about my data?

    Retailer: Was it important?

    Customer: Yes!

    Retailer: Then simply restore it from your last backup!

    Customer: I don't have a backup!

    Retailer: I thought you said that it was important?


    It's always good to let the customer know that he is the one that has
    stuffed up, start out by assuming that he would have a backup, when the
    customer claims to have no backup you should grill them for an explanation
    of why they would be so careless.


    --
    Mark Heyes (New Zealand)
    See my pics at www.gigatech.co.nz (last updated 20-Jan-05)
    "There are 10 types of people, those that
    understand binary and those that don't"
    MarkH, Mar 30, 2005
    #20
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