Grey market ruled against

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Rich, Dec 15, 2010.

  1. Rich

    Rich Guest

    Rich, Dec 15, 2010
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. Rich

    Eric Stevens Guest

    On Tue, 14 Dec 2010 22:02:13 -0800, Savageduck
    <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

    >On 2010-12-14 21:03:07 -0800, Rich <> said:
    >
    >> http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1000&message=37180618
    >>
    >> Poor B&H. Half their sales are threatened.

    >
    >That seems like a pretty vague ruling.
    >My Omega Seamaster 300M GMT, bought from a certified Omega retailer in
    >San Jose, has no markings on the rear case, stating imported directly
    >into the USA from Switzerland, or as a grey market item via Paraguay.
    >The same applies to my TAG Heuer.
    >My Seiko is a little more mysterious as it seems to have originated in
    >the "Land of The Rising Sun" and sold at Sears in 1986. Still works
    >though.
    >
    >I guess the real problem comes when seeking service or warranty repair.
    >That is why B&H carries its own warranty on grey market lenses they
    >sell & they advise as such. B&H does not try to pass off grey market
    >items as US distributer products and advises the customer of such up
    >from. That might not be the case with some jewelers selling grey market
    >genuine watches. Fakes are another issue altogether.


    Years ago my ex-son-in-law bought a fake Rolex in Singapore. "That's
    alright though because its got good quality Seiko works" - until he
    discovered the Seiko works were a fake also.
    >
    >That said I have yet to buy one of B&H's grey market offerings.




    Eric Stevens
     
    Eric Stevens, Dec 15, 2010
    #2
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  3. Rich

    Bruce Guest

    Bowser <> wrote:
    >On Tue, 14 Dec 2010 21:03:07 -0800 (PST), Rich <>
    >wrote:
    >
    >>http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1000&message=37180618
    >>
    >>Poor B&H. Half their sales are threatened.

    >
    >Nah. The price advantage of grey market items is pretty small, if it
    >exists at all these days.



    Indeed - when I last looked at the prices of Nikon lenses at B&H, I
    was surprised to see 'savings' as low as $30 to $50. There was a time
    when price differences were much larger.
     
    Bruce, Dec 15, 2010
    #3
  4. Rich

    shiva das Guest

    In article
    <>,
    Rich <> wrote:

    > http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1000&message=37180618
    >
    > Poor B&H. Half their sales are threatened.


    I didn't realize that B&H sold watches.

    The Swiss watch industry has been vigorous in their desire to control
    the entire vertical market for decades. In other countries it is easier
    to prohibit unauthorized dealers from selling their watches, or anyone
    selling at prices below the prices fixed by the manufacturer.

    In the US this kind of monopolism is illegal, so they have relied on
    copyright laws -- they copyright the design of their dials, cases,
    bracelets, etc. and prosecute unauthorized dealers for infringement.

    Leica is the only camera company I know which has successfully done the
    same thing in the camera world. Leica prices are set in Solms, Germany.
    If you are an authorized Leica dealer and you sell for less than list
    price, you lose your authorized dealership.

    Of course Leica is a tiny manufacturer compared to the Japanese
    companies. If Nikon or Canon were to try to resort to these tactics they
    would lose money on every camera they sell. Imagine how much it would
    cost Canon to track down unauthorized dealers, or dealers who discount
    their prices. You can buy a Canon or Nikon from the corner grocery store
    and the manufacturers will be happy to have the sale.
     
    shiva das, Dec 15, 2010
    #4
  5. Rich

    henryp Guest

    On Dec 15, 12:03 am, Rich <> wrote:
    > http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1000&message=37180618
    >
    > Poor B&H. Half their sales are threatened.


    Thanks for your concern. Actually I'd say 1% of our sales might be
    "threatened." Most of the "grey market" merchandise we now carry is
    limited to a couple of film types, some lenses and on-camera
    speedlights. There aren't any more "grey market" film slrs and we've
    never offered "grey market" digital cameras.

    --
    Henry Posner
    B&H Photo-Video
     
    henryp, Dec 15, 2010
    #5
  6. Rich

    otter Guest

    On Dec 15, 2:54 pm, henryp <> wrote:
    > On Dec 15, 12:03 am, Rich <> wrote:
    >
    > >http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1000&message=37180618

    >
    > > Poor B&H. Half their sales are threatened.

    >
    > Thanks for your concern. Actually I'd say 1% of our sales might be
    > "threatened." Most of the "grey market" merchandise we now carry is
    > limited to a couple of film types, some lenses and on-camera
    > speedlights. There aren't any more "grey market" film slrs and we've
    > never offered "grey market" digital cameras.
    >
    > --
    > Henry Posner
    > B&H Photo-Video


    Henry, has B&H authorized you to speak for them in an official
    manner? If not, you may want to check your company policy. People
    have gotten in trouble for posts like this when they don't have
    authorization. Don't want that to happen to you, if you were unaware
    of your company's policy. I know I am not authorized to speak for my
    employer. I generally try not to mention them at all online.

    On the other hand, if you ARE an authorized representative of B&H,
    then welcome. You might want to include your title in your sig.
     
    otter, Dec 16, 2010
    #6
  7. Rich

    SMS Guest

    On 12/15/2010 12:54 PM, henryp wrote:
    > On Dec 15, 12:03 am, Rich<> wrote:
    >> http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1000&message=37180618
    >>
    >> Poor B&H. Half their sales are threatened.

    >
    > Thanks for your concern. Actually I'd say 1% of our sales might be
    > "threatened." Most of the "grey market" merchandise we now carry is
    > limited to a couple of film types, some lenses and on-camera
    > speedlights. There aren't any more "grey market" film slrs and we've
    > never offered "grey market" digital cameras.
    >
    > --
    > Henry Posner
    > B&H Photo-Video


    It wasn't always just price that was an advantage of grey market. I
    bought an EOS5-QD from B&H many years ago because the A2E lacked some
    features that were present on the EOS5-QD, such as the date back and the
    auto-pop-up flash.

    Also, a lot of grey market merchandise is sold in the U.S. with the full
    knowledge of the manufacturer with a wink-wink.
     
    SMS, Dec 16, 2010
    #7
  8. Rich

    shiva das Guest

    In article
    <>,
    otter <> wrote:

    > On Dec 15, 2:54 pm, henryp <> wrote:
    > > On Dec 15, 12:03 am, Rich <> wrote:
    > >
    > > >http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1000&message=37180618

    > >
    > > > Poor B&H. Half their sales are threatened.

    > >
    > > Thanks for your concern. Actually I'd say 1% of our sales might be
    > > "threatened." Most of the "grey market" merchandise we now carry is
    > > limited to a couple of film types, some lenses and on-camera
    > > speedlights. There aren't any more "grey market" film slrs and we've
    > > never offered "grey market" digital cameras.
    > >
    > > --
    > > Henry Posner
    > > B&H Photo-Video

    >
    > Henry, has B&H authorized you to speak for them in an official
    > manner? If not, you may want to check your company policy. People
    > have gotten in trouble for posts like this when they don't have
    > authorization. Don't want that to happen to you, if you were unaware
    > of your company's policy. I know I am not authorized to speak for my
    > employer. I generally try not to mention them at all online.
    >
    > On the other hand, if you ARE an authorized representative of B&H,
    > then welcome. You might want to include your title in your sig.


    Henry is a good guy with a difficult job.

    Henry Posner
    Dir of Corp Communications at B&H Photo-Video
    Greater New York City Area | Retail

    Current: Director of Corporate Communications at B&H Photo Video
    Pro-Audio

    Past: Board of Directors at Hudson View Owners' Corporation,
    Director of Photography at Lifetouch/Prestige Portraits

    Education: Washington University in St. Louis, New Rochelle High School

    Summary: As Director of Corporate Communications, two of my primary
    functions are managing our company's reputation online and acting as an
    ombudsman for our customers. In the former capacity I frequent numerous
    forums, blogs, social network sites and newsgroups. As each situation
    warrants I am able to contribute as a B&H manager, a knowledgeable
    photographer with decades of professional experience, or as someone who
    enjoys considerable contacts in our industry. In the latter capacity I
    seek to assist customers who may need intervention over and above our
    normal channels. I attempt to cut red tape to resolve an individual
    customer's problem and I seek to understand the root cause of that
    problem and take steps to see it is not repeated.

    <http://www.linkedin.com/in/hposner>
     
    shiva das, Dec 16, 2010
    #8
  9. Rich

    Tim80 Guest

    "Savageduck" <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote in message
    news:2010121422021399505-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom...
    >>
    >> http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1000&message=37180618
    >>
    >> Poor B&H. Half their sales are threatened.

    >
    > That seems like a pretty vague ruling.
    > My Omega Seamaster 300M GMT, bought from a certified Omega retailer in San
    > Jose, has no markings on the rear case, stating imported directly into the
    > USA from Switzerland, or as a grey market item via Paraguay.
    > The same applies to my TAG Heuer.
    > My Seiko is a little more mysterious as it seems to have originated in the
    > "Land of The Rising Sun" and sold at Sears in 1986. Still works though.
    >
    > I guess the real problem comes when seeking service or warranty repair.
    > That is why B&H carries its own warranty on grey market lenses they sell &
    > they advise as such. B&H does not try to pass off grey market items as US
    > distributer products and advises the customer of such up from. That might
    > not be the case with some jewelers selling grey market genuine watches.
    > Fakes are another issue altogether.
    >
    > That said I have yet to buy one of B&H's grey market offerings.
    >
    > --
    > Regards,
    >
    > Savageduck



    Yeah, it is a pretty vague ruling, but it's nothing new. Levi's won a
    similar case about 10 years ago against a major European company for doing
    the same

    Basically, it's all political bollocks. For example, the EU fined Microsoft
    for anti-trust for supplying Internet Explorer free with it's operating
    system and won. So, does that mean that Garmin, Navman, etc can now file an
    anti-trust suit against automotive manufacturers for equipping their
    vehicles with free GPS navigation?
     
    Tim80, Dec 16, 2010
    #9
  10. Rich

    Tim80 Guest

    "Tim80" <> wrote in message
    news:iecvrj$rq8$...
    > "Savageduck" <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote in message
    > news:2010121422021399505-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom...
    >>>
    >>> http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1000&message=37180618
    >>>
    >>> Poor B&H. Half their sales are threatened.

    >>
    >> That seems like a pretty vague ruling.
    >> My Omega Seamaster 300M GMT, bought from a certified Omega retailer in
    >> San Jose, has no markings on the rear case, stating imported directly
    >> into the USA from Switzerland, or as a grey market item via Paraguay.
    >> The same applies to my TAG Heuer.
    >> My Seiko is a little more mysterious as it seems to have originated in
    >> the "Land of The Rising Sun" and sold at Sears in 1986. Still works
    >> though.
    >>
    >> I guess the real problem comes when seeking service or warranty repair.
    >> That is why B&H carries its own warranty on grey market lenses they sell
    >> & they advise as such. B&H does not try to pass off grey market items as
    >> US distributer products and advises the customer of such up from. That
    >> might not be the case with some jewelers selling grey market genuine
    >> watches. Fakes are another issue altogether.
    >>
    >> That said I have yet to buy one of B&H's grey market offerings.
    >>
    >> --
    >> Regards,
    >>
    >> Savageduck

    >
    >
    > Yeah, it is a pretty vague ruling, but it's nothing new. Levi's won a
    > similar case about 10 years ago against a major European company for doing
    > the same



    Just to add, it was trademark violation, not copyright.
     
    Tim80, Dec 16, 2010
    #10
  11. Rich

    J. Clarke Guest

    In article <c56c86e1-59ad-4ba5-9b62-
    >,
    says...
    >
    > On Dec 15, 2:54 pm, henryp <> wrote:
    > > On Dec 15, 12:03 am, Rich <> wrote:
    > >
    > > >http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1000&message=37180618

    > >
    > > > Poor B&H. Half their sales are threatened.

    > >
    > > Thanks for your concern. Actually I'd say 1% of our sales might be
    > > "threatened." Most of the "grey market" merchandise we now carry is
    > > limited to a couple of film types, some lenses and on-camera
    > > speedlights. There aren't any more "grey market" film slrs and we've
    > > never offered "grey market" digital cameras.
    > >
    > > --
    > > Henry Posner
    > > B&H Photo-Video

    >
    > Henry, has B&H authorized you to speak for them in an official
    > manner? If not, you may want to check your company policy. People
    > have gotten in trouble for posts like this when they don't have
    > authorization. Don't want that to happen to you, if you were unaware
    > of your company's policy. I know I am not authorized to speak for my
    > employer. I generally try not to mention them at all online.
    >
    > On the other hand, if you ARE an authorized representative of B&H,
    > then welcome. You might want to include your title in your sig.


    It shouldn't apply to B&H in any case. The Ninth Circuit has
    jurisdiction over the West Coast, Alaska, Hawaii, and some other islands
    in the Pacific. B&H is not in the Ninth Circuit. The Supreme Court did
    not uphold the ruling, the Supreme Court split 4/4 (one Justice recused
    herself) and thus effectively failed to rule at all, so the precedent is
    only valid in the Ninth Circuit.
     
    J. Clarke, Dec 16, 2010
    #11
  12. Rich

    Tim80 Guest

    Tim80, Dec 16, 2010
    #12
  13. Rich

    peter Guest

    peter, Dec 16, 2010
    #13
  14. Rich

    peter Guest

    On 12/15/2010 1:02 AM, Savageduck wrote:
    > On 2010-12-14 21:03:07 -0800, Rich <> said:
    >
    >> http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1000&message=37180618
    >>
    >> Poor B&H. Half their sales are threatened.

    >
    > That seems like a pretty vague ruling.
    > My Omega Seamaster 300M GMT, bought from a certified Omega retailer in
    > San Jose, has no markings on the rear case, stating imported directly
    > into the USA from Switzerland, or as a grey market item via Paraguay.
    > The same applies to my TAG Heuer.
    > My Seiko is a little more mysterious as it seems to have originated in
    > the "Land of The Rising Sun" and sold at Sears in 1986. Still works though.
    >
    > I guess the real problem comes when seeking service or warranty repair.
    > That is why B&H carries its own warranty on grey market lenses they sell
    > & they advise as such. B&H does not try to pass off grey market items as
    > US distributer products and advises the customer of such up from. That
    > might not be the case with some jewelers selling grey market genuine
    > watches. Fakes are another issue altogether.
    >
    > That said I have yet to buy one of B&H's grey market offerings.
    >


    I used to purchase gray market film one of two bricks at a time. Never
    had any issue and the Kodachrome was happily processed by Kodak.

    --
    Peter
     
    peter, Dec 16, 2010
    #14
  15. Rich

    peter Guest

    On 12/15/2010 9:28 AM, Bowser wrote:
    > On Tue, 14 Dec 2010 21:03:07 -0800 (PST), Rich<>
    > wrote:
    >
    >> http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1000&message=37180618
    >>
    >> Poor B&H. Half their sales are threatened.

    >
    > Nah. The price advantage of grey market items is pretty small, if it
    > exists at all these days.


    Rich has inside information on the sales of B&H.

    --
    Peter
     
    peter, Dec 16, 2010
    #15
  16. Rich

    Eric Stevens Guest

    On Thu, 16 Dec 2010 12:13:16 -0000, "Tim80" <> wrote:

    >"Savageduck" <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote in message
    >news:2010121422021399505-savageduck1@REMOVESPAMmecom...
    >>>
    >>> http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1000&message=37180618
    >>>
    >>> Poor B&H. Half their sales are threatened.

    >>
    >> That seems like a pretty vague ruling.
    >> My Omega Seamaster 300M GMT, bought from a certified Omega retailer in San
    >> Jose, has no markings on the rear case, stating imported directly into the
    >> USA from Switzerland, or as a grey market item via Paraguay.
    >> The same applies to my TAG Heuer.
    >> My Seiko is a little more mysterious as it seems to have originated in the
    >> "Land of The Rising Sun" and sold at Sears in 1986. Still works though.
    >>
    >> I guess the real problem comes when seeking service or warranty repair.
    >> That is why B&H carries its own warranty on grey market lenses they sell &
    >> they advise as such. B&H does not try to pass off grey market items as US
    >> distributer products and advises the customer of such up from. That might
    >> not be the case with some jewelers selling grey market genuine watches.
    >> Fakes are another issue altogether.
    >>
    >> That said I have yet to buy one of B&H's grey market offerings.
    >>
    >> --
    >> Regards,
    >>
    >> Savageduck

    >
    >
    >Yeah, it is a pretty vague ruling, but it's nothing new. Levi's won a
    >similar case about 10 years ago against a major European company for doing
    >the same
    >
    >Basically, it's all political bollocks. For example, the EU fined Microsoft
    >for anti-trust for supplying Internet Explorer free with it's operating
    >system and won.


    Microsoft didn't supply Internet Explorer free. They supplied it as
    part of the bundle with Windows, for which you had to pay. You
    couldn't opt to buy Windows without IE. Nor could you separate IE from
    Windows. You got it and paid for it irrespective of whether or not you
    wanted it.

    >So, does that mean that Garmin, Navman, etc can now file an
    >anti-trust suit against automotive manufacturers for equipping their
    >vehicles with free GPS navigation?


    Only if manufacturers infringe Garmin of Navman patents or copyright.
    >
    >
    >




    Eric Stevens
     
    Eric Stevens, Dec 16, 2010
    #16
  17. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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    On 12/15/2010 6:41 PM, otter wrote:

    > Henry, has B&H authorized you to speak for them in an official
    > manner? If not, you may want to check your company policy. People
    > have gotten in trouble for posts like this when they don't have
    > authorization. Don't want that to happen to you, if you were unaware
    > of your company's policy. I know I am not authorized to speak for my
    > employer. I generally try not to mention them at all online.
    >
    > On the other hand, if you ARE an authorized representative of B&H,
    > then welcome. You might want to include your title in your sig.


    Henry is definitely authorized; it's part of his job. I'm amazed that
    B&H actually watches Usenet of all places to respond to customer
    requests. They definitely are a step ahead of their competition in
    customer service.


    - --
    - -Ryan McGinnis
    The BIG Storm Picture: http://bigstormpicture.com PGP Key: 0x65115E4C
    Follow my storm chasing adventures at http://bigstormpicture.blogspot.com
    Images@Getty: http://bit.ly/dJSi08 Images@Alamy: http://bit.ly/aMH6Qd
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    Ryan McGinnis, Dec 16, 2010
    #17
  18. Rich

    Tim80 Guest

    "Eric Stevens" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >>Yeah, it is a pretty vague ruling, but it's nothing new. Levi's won a
    >>similar case about 10 years ago against a major European company for doing
    >>the same
    >>
    >>Basically, it's all political bollocks. For example, the EU fined
    >>Microsoft
    >>for anti-trust for supplying Internet Explorer free with it's operating
    >>system and won.

    >
    > Microsoft didn't supply Internet Explorer free. They supplied it as
    > part of the bundle with Windows, for which you had to pay. You
    > couldn't opt to buy Windows without IE. Nor could you separate IE from
    > Windows. You got it and paid for it irrespective of whether or not you
    > wanted it.


    Same with cars then?
     
    Tim80, Dec 16, 2010
    #18
  19. Rich

    tony cooper Guest

    On Thu, 16 Dec 2010 14:37:55 -0600, Ryan McGinnis <>
    wrote:

    >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    >Hash: SHA1
    >
    >On 12/15/2010 6:41 PM, otter wrote:
    >
    >> Henry, has B&H authorized you to speak for them in an official
    >> manner? If not, you may want to check your company policy. People
    >> have gotten in trouble for posts like this when they don't have
    >> authorization. Don't want that to happen to you, if you were unaware
    >> of your company's policy. I know I am not authorized to speak for my
    >> employer. I generally try not to mention them at all online.
    >>
    >> On the other hand, if you ARE an authorized representative of B&H,
    >> then welcome. You might want to include your title in your sig.

    >
    >Henry is definitely authorized; it's part of his job. I'm amazed that
    >B&H actually watches Usenet of all places to respond to customer
    >requests. They definitely are a step ahead of their competition in
    >customer service.


    Adorama's representitive does the same thing, with equal class. Is it
    any wonder why these two are top-rated internet suppliers of
    photography equipment?

    --
    Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
     
    tony cooper, Dec 16, 2010
    #19
  20. Rich

    tony cooper Guest

    On Thu, 16 Dec 2010 14:20:03 -0800, Savageduck
    <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

    >On 2010-12-16 13:03:03 -0800, tony cooper <> said:
    >
    >> On Thu, 16 Dec 2010 14:37:55 -0600, Ryan McGinnis <>
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    >>> Hash: SHA1
    >>>
    >>> On 12/15/2010 6:41 PM, otter wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> Henry, has B&H authorized you to speak for them in an official
    >>>> manner? If not, you may want to check your company policy. People
    >>>> have gotten in trouble for posts like this when they don't have
    >>>> authorization. Don't want that to happen to you, if you were unaware
    >>>> of your company's policy. I know I am not authorized to speak for my
    >>>> employer. I generally try not to mention them at all online.
    >>>>
    >>>> On the other hand, if you ARE an authorized representative of B&H,
    >>>> then welcome. You might want to include your title in your sig.
    >>>
    >>> Henry is definitely authorized; it's part of his job. I'm amazed that
    >>> B&H actually watches Usenet of all places to respond to customer
    >>> requests. They definitely are a step ahead of their competition in
    >>> customer service.

    >>
    >> Adorama's representitive does the same thing, with equal class. Is it
    >> any wonder why these two are top-rated internet suppliers of
    >> photography equipment?

    >
    >Agreed!
    >Both Henry Posner at B&H, and Helen Oster at Adorama are top performers
    >in the art of trouble shooting, problem solving and clearing up
    >customers/store "misunderstandings" with great diplomacy. Some how they
    >also have enough time to browse the photo groups for negative comments,
    >or they have a vast network of usenet tipsters.



    An infrequent poster in another group I read does a regular search for
    a particular word. When that word appears, he joins in the thread.

    The above might not make much sense, but this person is autistic and
    has a fixation on this particular word.
    --
    Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
     
    tony cooper, Dec 16, 2010
    #20
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