Good semi-pro camera?

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by rkhen@softhome.net, Aug 27, 2008.

  1. Guest

    Hi all,

    I did a lot of freelance journalism in the 90s and was pretty
    successful. In those days I carried a Canon AE-1 35mm, "the AK 47 of
    the freelance photographer," and various accessories.

    Now I'd like to get back into it, but sadly, I find that cameras just
    like my trusty AE-1 (which still works perfectly) are now going for
    50$ on E-bay. Sigh.

    So, what's the new AK 47? Bearing in mind that I'm still learning
    about digitial photography, and will be buying used because I can't
    afford new. (I bought my AE-1 used, too. Sigh.)

    I realise this is a huge question, but any advice on models or
    desirable features would be very much appreciated.

    Thanks.
     
    , Aug 27, 2008
    #1
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  2. SMS Guest

    wrote:
    > Hi all,
    >
    > I did a lot of freelance journalism in the 90s and was pretty
    > successful. In those days I carried a Canon AE-1 35mm, "the AK 47 of
    > the freelance photographer," and various accessories.
    >
    > Now I'd like to get back into it, but sadly, I find that cameras just
    > like my trusty AE-1 (which still works perfectly) are now going for
    > 50$ on E-bay. Sigh.
    >
    > So, what's the new AK 47? Bearing in mind that I'm still learning
    > about digitial photography, and will be buying used because I can't
    > afford new. (I bought my AE-1 used, too. Sigh.)
    >
    > I realise this is a huge question, but any advice on models or
    > desirable features would be very much appreciated.
    >
    > Thanks.


    Get the Canon 40D or the Nikon D300. Both are just about one year old
    and both will soon be replaced by newer models, but are very good. When
    the new models are available, these older bodies will be available used
    at good prices (in the $600 price range for the 40D, and the $800 price
    range for the D300). They're both great cameras, with the main
    advantages of the newer models being a little higher resolution.

    Unfortunately, Canon and Nikon lenses tend to hold their value well, so
    not a lot of used bargains there, and often you can find the lenses on
    sale new for less than what people are paying on craigslist or eBay.

    If you can find a Nikon or Canon owner that's upgrading to full-frame,
    then they might be selling their DX or EF-s lenses along with the body
    (both can be used on the full-frame bodies but are a compromise that
    many owners won't want to make). Look for a 40D with a 17-85 IS EF-s
    lens, or a Nikon D300 with a 16-85mm VR DX lens. You should be able to
    find the former for about $800, and the latter for about $1000, once the
    replacement models are available.

    You should wait a couple of months until the new Canon and Nikon models
    hit the store shelves, since that's when the used value of the previous
    generation bodies will plummet. Right now the owners are a bit too proud.

    Note that Canon has already announced the successor to the 10 megapixel
    40D, it's the 15 megapixel 50D, but Nikon hasn't yet announced the
    successor to the 12 megapixel D300. Both were introduced in August 2007.
     
    SMS, Aug 27, 2008
    #2
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  3. Guest

    Thanks very much for that advice; I'll look into it. If anyone has any
    thing to add, I'm all ears.

    On 26 ago, 18:02, SMS <> wrote:
    > wrote:
    > > Hi all,

    >
    > > I did a lot of freelance journalism in the 90s and was pretty
    > > successful. In those days I carried a Canon AE-1 35mm, "the AK 47 of
    > > the freelance photographer," and various accessories.

    >
    > > Now I'd like to get back into it, but sadly, I find that cameras just
    > > like my trusty AE-1 (which still works perfectly) are now going for
    > > 50$ on E-bay. Sigh.

    >
    > > So, what's the new AK 47? Bearing in mind that I'm still learning
    > > about digitial photography, and will be buying used because I can't
    > > afford new. (I bought my AE-1 used, too. Sigh.)

    >
    > > I realise this is a huge question, but any advice on models or
    > > desirable features would be very much appreciated.

    >
    > > Thanks.

    >
    > Get the Canon 40D or the Nikon D300. Both are just about one year old
    > and both will soon be replaced by newer models, but are very good. When
    > the new models are available, these older bodies will be available used
    > at good prices (in the $600 price range for the 40D, and the $800 price
    > range for the D300). They're both great cameras, with the main
    > advantages of the newer models being a little higher resolution.
    >
    > Unfortunately, Canon and Nikon lenses tend to hold their value well, so
    > not a lot of used bargains there, and often you can find the lenses on
    > sale new for less than what people are paying on craigslist or eBay.
    >
    > If you can find a Nikon or Canon owner that's upgrading to full-frame,
    > then they might be selling their DX or EF-s lenses along with the body
    > (both can be used on the full-frame bodies but are a compromise that
    > many owners won't want to make). Look for a 40D with a 17-85 IS EF-s
    > lens, or a Nikon D300 with a 16-85mm VR DX lens. You should be able to
    > find the former for about $800, and the latter for about $1000, once the
    >   replacement models are available.
    >
    > You should wait a couple of months until the new Canon and Nikon models
    > hit the store shelves, since that's when the used value of the previous
    > generation bodies will plummet. Right now the owners are a bit too proud.
    >
    > Note that Canon has already announced the successor to the 10 megapixel
    >   40D, it's the 15 megapixel 50D, but Nikon hasn't yet announced the
    > successor to the 12 megapixel D300. Both were introduced in August 2007.
     
    , Aug 27, 2008
    #3
  4. saycheez Guest

    If you are doing free lance journalism then pixel count is likely secondary
    to write speed which is what determines fps.
    Write speed is dependent on the memory buffer in the camera so that is what
    you should pay attention to in your research.
    You do not need the latest and greatest sensor for newspaper and web
    posting, far from it.
    However if you have higher aspirations then the latest is definitely the
    greatest in digital.
    If you are going to abuse your camera then while a used machine may be
    cheaper it will already be well into its rated shutter count.
    Since the maximum write speed is obtained with jpegs then you do not have to
    initially be concerned about raw processing.
    And while the fastest memory cards exceed the speed at which cameras can
    write to them they may have an advantage for quicker downloading of your
    saleable images.
    In truth it is your ability and savvy that is more important than the gear:
    digital is no different than film in this regard.
     
    saycheez, Aug 27, 2008
    #4
  5. Ray Fischer Guest

    <> wrote:
    >Thanks very much for that advice; I'll look into it. If anyone has any
    >thing to add, I'm all ears.


    It's good advice. If you wanted to save money you could go with
    cheaper dSLRs. You'll find either of those a major step up from the
    AE-1 and even the cheaper digital SLRs are quite a bit more capable
    than the AE-1.

    Consider a mid-range SLR for now (Canon XSi or Nikon D80) and put more
    money into lenses. By the time you're up to speed on the world of
    digital you'll know better how much camera you really want and your
    camera will be ready for upgrading.


    >On 26 ago, 18:02, SMS <> wrote:
    >> wrote:
    >> > Hi all,

    >>
    >> > I did a lot of freelance journalism in the 90s and was pretty
    >> > successful. In those days I carried a Canon AE-1 35mm, "the AK 47 of
    >> > the freelance photographer," and various accessories.

    >>
    >> > Now I'd like to get back into it, but sadly, I find that cameras just
    >> > like my trusty AE-1 (which still works perfectly) are now going for
    >> > 50$ on E-bay. Sigh.

    >>
    >> > So, what's the new AK 47? Bearing in mind that I'm still learning
    >> > about digitial photography, and will be buying used because I can't
    >> > afford new. (I bought my AE-1 used, too. Sigh.)

    >>
    >> > I realise this is a huge question, but any advice on models or
    >> > desirable features would be very much appreciated.

    >>
    >> > Thanks.

    >>
    >> Get the Canon 40D or the Nikon D300. Both are just about one year old
    >> and both will soon be replaced by newer models, but are very good. When
    >> the new models are available, these older bodies will be available used
    >> at good prices (in the $600 price range for the 40D, and the $800 price
    >> range for the D300). They're both great cameras, with the main
    >> advantages of the newer models being a little higher resolution.
    >>
    >> Unfortunately, Canon and Nikon lenses tend to hold their value well, so
    >> not a lot of used bargains there, and often you can find the lenses on
    >> sale new for less than what people are paying on craigslist or eBay.
    >>
    >> If you can find a Nikon or Canon owner that's upgrading to full-frame,
    >> then they might be selling their DX or EF-s lenses along with the body
    >> (both can be used on the full-frame bodies but are a compromise that
    >> many owners won't want to make). Look for a 40D with a 17-85 IS EF-s
    >> lens, or a Nikon D300 with a 16-85mm VR DX lens. You should be able to
    >> find the former for about $800, and the latter for about $1000, once the
    >>   replacement models are available.
    >>
    >> You should wait a couple of months until the new Canon and Nikon models
    >> hit the store shelves, since that's when the used value of the previous
    >> generation bodies will plummet. Right now the owners are a bit too proud.
    >>
    >> Note that Canon has already announced the successor to the 10 megapixel
    >>   40D, it's the 15 megapixel 50D, but Nikon hasn't yet announced the
    >> successor to the 12 megapixel D300. Both were introduced in August 2007.

    >



    --
    Ray Fischer
     
    Ray Fischer, Aug 27, 2008
    #5
  6. > On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 21:07:32 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
    >
    >> Thanks very much for that advice; I'll look into it. If anyone has
    >> any thing to add, I'm all ears.


    Choose the best tool for the job, without prejudice. It's not as
    black-and-white as some would make you think. Both DSLR and compact
    cameras have their advantages, and both have their drawbacks. Ideally,
    take both.

    Cheers,
    David
     
    David J Taylor, Aug 27, 2008
    #6
  7. Mark Thomas Guest

    JakeJ wrote:
    > Think out of the box. Just because you have believed all your life that a good
    > camera must look, act, and obnoxiously sound like an SLR, when all is said and
    > done it's how well it performs to fit your own needs that matters.


    Bear in mind that this was posted by our well-known anti-DSLR troll, who
    uses multiple names to try to make it appear he has support. Vern,
    Bombadier, etc, etc..

    Frankly, for p-j work, I would go with a 4/3 camera before a p&s. But a
    DSLR is the obvious choice - get to a store and try them all out, check
    out DPREview, Imaging-Resource, Cameralabs.

    What sort of p-j? Specifics might help narrow it down.
     
    Mark Thomas, Aug 27, 2008
    #7
  8. Mark Thomas Guest

    OT Re: Good semi-pro camera?

    JakeJ wrote:
    > Oh, if only the photojournalists had only SLRs during the crash of the
    > Hindenberg
    > P&S cameras have video for those times
    > Some will even record in CD-quality stereo so later that
    > sound-track could be put through directional analysis for crime scenes.
    > Get the drift? No, I thought not. You're that amazingly stupid.
    > Get some real-life experience with real cameras
    > quit relaying your obvious ignorance....


    Any questions? (O:

    He's sooo helpful. And that soundtrack thru directional analysis idea -
    how handy would *that* be??? Can't believe I've lived without it...
     
    Mark Thomas, Aug 27, 2008
    #8
  9. On Aug 26, 7:38 pm, wrote:
    > Hi all,
    >
    > I did a lot of freelance journalism in the 90s and was pretty
    > successful. In those days I carried a Canon AE-1 35mm, "the AK 47 of
    > the freelance photographer," and various accessories.
    >
    > Now I'd like to get back into it, but sadly, I find that cameras just
    > like my trusty AE-1 (which still works perfectly) are now going for
    > 50$ on E-bay. Sigh.
    >
    > So, what's the new AK 47? Bearing in mind that I'm still learning
    > about digitial photography, and will be buying used because I can't
    > afford new. (I bought my AE-1 used, too. Sigh.)
    >
    > I realise this is a huge question, but any advice on models or
    > desirable features would be very much appreciated.
    >
    > Thanks.



    All of these suggestions are good. I am a Nikon user, so I would
    recoomend the D80 or D300. However, any camera at this level is very
    good. Most importantly, any of these mid range systems are ones that
    you can grow "in to" with new lenses. A D80 when used with Nikon's
    Pro Series lenese is a very good system. In fact, it would out-
    perform the D300 with the amatuer series or off brand lenses in most
    cases.
    Just my 2 cents worth
    Jeff Roush
    photo instructor
    http://www.roushphotoonline.com
     
    RoushPhotoOnline.com, Aug 27, 2008
    #9
  10. SMS Guest

    RoushPhotoOnline.com wrote:

    > All of these suggestions are good. I am a Nikon user, so I would
    > recoomend the D80 or D300. However, any camera at this level is very
    > good. Most importantly, any of these mid range systems are ones that
    > you can grow "in to" with new lenses. A D80 when used with Nikon's
    > Pro Series lenese is a very good system. In fact, it would out-
    > perform the D300 with the amatuer series or off brand lenses in most
    > cases.


    Good advice. And with the D80 replacement announced, and the D300
    replacement imminent, there should be a good supply of used bodies from
    those that just have to have the latest thing as soon as it comes out.
    Ditto for the 50D/40D and 7D/5D from Canon.
     
    SMS, Aug 27, 2008
    #10
  11. Guest

    On 27 ago, 04:48, bugbear <bugbear@trim_papermule.co.uk_trim> wrote:
    > wrote:
    > > Hi all,
    > > I realise this is a huge question, but any advice on models or
    > > desirable features would be very much appreciated.

    >
    > Can you sketch your requirments?
    >
    > What sort of "things" do you want to photograph,
    > and in what circumstances, and what do you
    > want to do with the resulting images?
    >
    >     BugBear



    Yeah. I mostly shoot stuff for books and magazine articles. Lots of
    close-ups of small objects, some wildlife and nature photography, a
    little portrait-style photography here and there, some action but
    rarely or never high-risk stuff. Think National Geographic-type
    scenarios; that's pretty much my beat. But not with those clunky,
    super-expensive set-ups their shooters use. (I'm a one-man band, and
    NatGeog writers travel with a designated photographer. My markets are
    rarely that glossy, either.)

    Hope this helps.
     
    , Aug 27, 2008
    #11
  12. Nervous Nick Guest

    On Aug 26, 7:38 pm, wrote:
    > Hi all,
    >
    > I did a lot of freelance journalism in the 90s and was pretty
    > successful. In those days I carried a Canon AE-1 35mm, "the AK 47 of
    > the freelance photographer,"


    Who the hell ever called it that, in "those days"?! And why?

    --
    YOP...
     
    Nervous Nick, Aug 27, 2008
    #12
  13. Archibald Guest

    On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 15:18:03 -0500, JakeJ <> wrote:

    >On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 06:53:14 -0700, C J Campbell
    ><> wrote:
    >
    >>
    >>When I want to take a picture, I want the shutter to click NOW. You
    >>don't get that in any P&S.
    >>

    >
    >Only in your own mind. Apparently you don't know the myriad ways that one can
    >maximize shutter-response time in any camera. My P&S cameras all have
    >shutter-response times of under 50ms. 50 milliseconds, less than 0.5 hundredths
    >of a second. Faster than human reaction time. You too need some experience under
    >your belt before you should be allowed to give advice, to anyone, on anything.
    >
    >Is this whole newsgroup full of nothing but armchair wannabe-photographer
    >trolls, trying to convince or fool themselves and everyone else that they know
    >something about cameras and photography? Seems that way.
    >
    >>If you want movies, get a movie camera. Or get the Nikon D90 DSLR.

    >
    >So now you are running around with two more camera bags of gear and trying to
    >remain unobtrusive so as not to influence or change what you are trying to
    >document. Sure, that'll work.
    >
    >Where do all these idiots come from.


    You're one of them if you think "50 milliseconds is less than 0.5
    hundredths of a second".

    Archibald

    Archibald
     
    Archibald, Aug 27, 2008
    #13
  14. nospam Guest

    In article <SSftk.5104$>, SMS
    <> wrote:
    >
    > > All of these suggestions are good. I am a Nikon user, so I would
    > > recoomend the D80 or D300. However, any camera at this level is very
    > > good. Most importantly, any of these mid range systems are ones that
    > > you can grow "in to" with new lenses. A D80 when used with Nikon's
    > > Pro Series lenese is a very good system. In fact, it would out-
    > > perform the D300 with the amatuer series or off brand lenses in most
    > > cases.

    >
    > Good advice. And with the D80 replacement announced, and the D300
    > replacement imminent,


    imminent?? where in the world did you get that idea?
     
    nospam, Aug 27, 2008
    #14
  15. Guest

    On 27 ago, 15:17, Nervous Nick <> wrote:
    > On Aug 26, 7:38 pm, wrote:
    >
    > > Hi all,

    >
    > > I did a lot of freelance journalism in the 90s and was pretty
    > > successful. In those days I carried a Canon AE-1 35mm, "the AK 47 of
    > > the freelance photographer,"

    >
    > Who the hell ever called it that, in "those days"?!  And why?
    >
    > --
    > YOP...


    The AK 47 was (and I think, is still) the universal weapon of guerilla
    fighters. We used to refer to the AE-1 as the AK 47 of the freelance
    photographer because just about all of us semi-pro types had one slung
    around our necks. It was the perfect convergence of affordability, if
    you kept your eyes open for deals, versatility, and quality. (Price
    just low enough, quality just high enough.)

    I still love mine. I'm still going to use it to do black and white
    self-print work. What can I say, I just love the smell of the fixer.
     
    , Aug 28, 2008
    #15
  16. Guest

    On 27 ago, 15:17, Nervous Nick <> wrote:
    > On Aug 26, 7:38 pm, wrote:
    >
    > > Hi all,

    >
    > > I did a lot of freelance journalism in the 90s and was pretty
    > > successful. In those days I carried a Canon AE-1 35mm, "the AK 47 of
    > > the freelance photographer,"

    >
    > Who the hell ever called it that, in "those days"?!  And why?
    >
    > --
    > YOP...


    The AK 47 was (and I think, is still) the universal weapon of guerilla
    fighters. We used to refer to the AE-1 as the AK 47 of the freelance
    photographer because just about all of us semi-pro types had one slung
    around our necks. It was the perfect convergence of affordability, if
    you kept your eyes open for deals, versatility, and quality. (Price
    just low enough, quality just high enough.)

    I still love mine. I'm still going to use it to do black and white
    self-print work. What can I say, I just love the smell of the fixer.
     
    , Aug 28, 2008
    #16
  17. measekite Guest

    wrote:
    > Hi all,
    >
    > I did a lot of freelance journalism in the 90s and was pretty
    > successful. In those days I carried a Canon AE-1 35mm, "the AK 47 of
    > the freelance photographer," and various accessories.
    >
    > Now I'd like to get back into it, but sadly, I find that cameras just
    > like my trusty AE-1 (which still works perfectly) are now going for
    > 50$ on E-bay. Sigh.
    >
    > So, what's the new AK 47? Bearing in mind that I'm still learning
    > about digitial photography, and will be buying used because I can't
    > afford new. (I bought my AE-1 used, too. Sigh.)
    >


    I would say you should look at the Canon XSi Digital Rebel aka Canon
    450D. A second choice would be the Nikon D60 but I think that Canon has
    the edge between those two models. Canon also makes an XS but for the
    small difference I think the XSi/450D would be the best. Canon also
    just announced a new lens: 18-200 which will give you approx 28-300 in
    35mm terms. Now reviews yet but if the lens is good and price right you
    may want to consider it. Canon also makes one of the best wide angles
    in the 10-22 which translates to about 16-35 in 35mm terms.
    > I realise this is a huge question, but any advice on models or
    > desirable features would be very much appreciated.
    >
    > Thanks.
    >
     
    measekite, Aug 28, 2008
    #17
  18. Dusty Guest

    On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 16:50:32 -0700, C J Campbell
    <> wrote:

    >On 2008-08-27 13:18:03 -0700, JakeJ <> said:
    >
    >> On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 06:53:14 -0700, C J Campbell
    >> <> wrote:
    >>
    >>>
    >>> When I want to take a picture, I want the shutter to click NOW. You
    >>> don't get that in any P&S.
    >>>

    >>
    >> Only in your own mind. Apparently you don't know the myriad ways that one can
    >> maximize shutter-response time in any camera. My P&S cameras all have
    >> shutter-response times of under 50ms. 50 milliseconds, less than 0.5 hundredths
    >> of a second. Faster than human reaction time. You too need some
    >> experience under
    >> your belt before you should be allowed to give advice, to anyone, on anything.

    >
    >I am reasonably certain that I have far more experience than you have.
    >
    >>
    >> Is this whole newsgroup full of nothing but armchair wannabe-photographer
    >> trolls, trying to convince or fool themselves and everyone else that they know
    >> something about cameras and photography? Seems that way.
    >>
    >>> If you want movies, get a movie camera. Or get the Nikon D90 DSLR.

    >>
    >> So now you are running around with two more camera bags of gear and trying to
    >> remain unobtrusive so as not to influence or change what you are trying to
    >> document. Sure, that'll work.
    >>
    >> Where do all these idiots come from.

    >
    >Funny. All the pros I know use DSLRs. Frankly, I will take the word of
    >the likes of Moose Peterson, Thom Hogan, Joe McNally or Robert T.
    >Williams over yours. I don't see a lot of point & shoot pictures
    >getting published in National Geographic or Rangefinder Magazine. The
    >guys seated at the professional photographer sections of the Olympics
    >all used DSLRs. There are NO point & shoot images on Getty or the other
    >top stock photo sites. It was the amateurs up in the stands who were
    >clicking off their little point & shoot flashes.


    Wow, defensive. Who are you trying to convince?

    >But somehow you think you know more than all those guys. Call me back
    >when you are actually published and making a decent living at
    >photography. Actually, don't bother. I will not be replying to any more
    >of your messages.


    You just did, and you got suckered in by a troll.
     
    Dusty, Aug 28, 2008
    #18
  19. Paul Furman Guest

    Re: |GG| Good semi-pro camera?

    wrote:
    > Hi all,
    >
    > I did a lot of freelance journalism in the 90s and was pretty
    > successful. In those days I carried a Canon AE-1 35mm, "the AK 47 of
    > the freelance photographer," and various accessories.
    >
    > Now I'd like to get back into it, but sadly, I find that cameras just
    > like my trusty AE-1 (which still works perfectly) are now going for
    > 50$ on E-bay. Sigh.
    >
    > So, what's the new AK 47? Bearing in mind that I'm still learning
    > about digitial photography, and will be buying used because I can't
    > afford new. (I bought my AE-1 used, too. Sigh.)
    >
    > I realise this is a huge question, but any advice on models or
    > desirable features would be very much appreciated.


    Well I like my 2-year old Nikon D200: it's built for abuse, works with
    all sorts of cheap old manual lenses, great viewfinder, lots of manual
    controls and should be rather affordable now. But the newer crop are
    pretty amazing and surpass it's image quality & features. If you are
    inclined to get some fast manual glass the D200 makes sense, if you want
    something smaller all the entry level models are fantastic & cheap with
    a kit lens. For low light, the Canon 5D makes sense though if you want
    fast glass it won't meter with old Nikkors and fast primes are rare new
    these days. The entry level Nikons also won't meter or autofocus with
    old lenses so a D80 is a good compromise with the D200's big viewfinder
    & sensor, it will autofocus used lenses but not meter with really old
    manual lenses.

    --
    Paul Furman
    www.edgehill.net
    www.baynatives.com

    all google groups messages filtered due to spam
     
    Paul Furman, Aug 28, 2008
    #19
  20. Chris H Guest

    In message <>, Alan Browne
    <> writes
    > wrote:
    >
    >> successful. In those days I carried a Canon AE-1 35mm, "the AK 47 of
    >> the freelance photographer," and various accessories.
    >> So, what's the new AK 47?

    >
    >The designer of the AK-47 was criticized for the 'cheap' looking AK-47
    >and was asked repeatedly to improve it. His reply:
    >
    > "Perfection is the enemy of good enough".


    Besides he saw what happened to the gun he copied it from. That was
    very well engineered. But too expensive and time consuming to make large
    numbers of. They needed lots of fire power quickly.

    >That should be your guide: Find the camera that is "good enough" for
    >your purpose.
    >
    >The mid-range cameras from Canon, Nikon, Sony, Pentax and Olympus are
    >all more than "good enough".


    I agree. The AK-47 won battles but a sniper or long range competition
    shooter would not use it.

    >Starting from scratch, I would likely go with the Canon 5D as its 12
    >Mpix FF sensor will more than cover any PJ assignment. Proper
    >pentaprism (although a bit weak on mag) and all metal body.


    I would not bother with FF. That is just a marketing ploy in my opinion.
    You only have to see what has been done with the non FF Nikons and
    Canons. Also the "normal" DX DSLR can use both the FF lenses or the
    DX lenses. The DX being smaller and lighter.

    I would suggest the D200, D300 (or C***n :) Equivalents


    >Add the right stabilized lenses and go ...


    That is also helpful.


    --
    \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
    \/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/
    \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
     
    Chris H, Aug 28, 2008
    #20
    1. Advertising

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