Good quality DVD's for archiving

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Antony, Feb 12, 2005.

  1. Antony

    Antony Guest

    Evening all

    I would like to start archiving the 80gb of photos which are currently on my
    hard drive to Dvd, however i'm a little confused as i don't know which brand
    or dye to use.

    What do you guys use, are the run of the mill Dvd's ok or should i be using
    certain brand/dye.

    Cheers all

    Antony
    Antony, Feb 12, 2005
    #1
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  2. Antony

    Ron Guest

    One place to start is with your manufacturer to see what it recommends.
    I use a new Plextor and it is mighty particular with anything not on
    the compatibility list. Right now I am having very good luck with Sony
    DVD-R's. Another thing to consider would be a USB hard drive. They have
    come way down in price and a good hard drive will probably outlast
    dvd's....and you can always keep your file structures, etc. I keep one
    in the back of my car in case the house burns down....

    Antony wrote:
    > Evening all
    >
    > I would like to start archiving the 80gb of photos which are currently on my
    > hard drive to Dvd, however i'm a little confused as i don't know which brand
    > or dye to use.
    >
    > What do you guys use, are the run of the mill Dvd's ok or should i be using
    > certain brand/dye.
    >
    > Cheers all
    >
    > Antony
    >
    >
    >
    Ron, Feb 12, 2005
    #2
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  3. On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 18:11:51 -0500, Ron <> wrote:

    >One place to start is with your manufacturer to see what it recommends.
    >I use a new Plextor and it is mighty particular with anything not on
    >the compatibility list. Right now I am having very good luck with Sony
    >DVD-R's. Another thing to consider would be a USB hard drive. They have
    >come way down in price and a good hard drive will probably outlast
    >dvd's....and you can always keep your file structures, etc. I keep one
    >in the back of my car in case the house burns down....
    >
    >Antony wrote:
    >> Evening all
    >>
    >> I would like to start archiving the 80gb of photos which are currently on my
    >> hard drive to Dvd, however i'm a little confused as i don't know which brand
    >> or dye to use.
    >>
    >> What do you guys use, are the run of the mill Dvd's ok or should i be using
    >> certain brand/dye.
    >>
    >> Cheers all
    >>
    >> Antony
    >>
    >>
    >>




    There is One brand and was posted in the news group by a Photographer, I have
    the link and info some ware..


    These are the 300 Year Archival grade Mitsui Gold, now made in the US, in
    Colorado. the Jap firm was sold to a firm in Italy..

    If you are interested I will post the info..
    BILL bs.xxxxxxxxxx.corn, Feb 13, 2005
    #3
  4. Antony

    Antony Guest

    Bill

    Very much so, if you can find it that will be a great help.

    R's

    Antony
    <BILL bs.xxxxxxxxxx.corn> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 18:11:51 -0500, Ron <> wrote:
    >
    >>One place to start is with your manufacturer to see what it recommends.
    >>I use a new Plextor and it is mighty particular with anything not on
    >>the compatibility list. Right now I am having very good luck with Sony
    >>DVD-R's. Another thing to consider would be a USB hard drive. They have
    >>come way down in price and a good hard drive will probably outlast
    >>dvd's....and you can always keep your file structures, etc. I keep one
    >>in the back of my car in case the house burns down....
    >>
    >>Antony wrote:
    >>> Evening all
    >>>
    >>> I would like to start archiving the 80gb of photos which are currently
    >>> on my
    >>> hard drive to Dvd, however i'm a little confused as i don't know which
    >>> brand
    >>> or dye to use.
    >>>
    >>> What do you guys use, are the run of the mill Dvd's ok or should i be
    >>> using
    >>> certain brand/dye.
    >>>
    >>> Cheers all
    >>>
    >>> Antony
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>

    >
    >
    >
    > There is One brand and was posted in the news group by a Photographer, I
    > have
    > the link and info some ware..
    >
    >
    > These are the 300 Year Archival grade Mitsui Gold, now made in the US,
    > in
    > Colorado. the Jap firm was sold to a firm in Italy..
    >
    > If you are interested I will post the info..
    >
    >
    Antony, Feb 13, 2005
    #4
  5. Antony

    RSD99 Guest

    "BILL bs.xxxxxxxxxx.corn" posted:
    "...
    These are the 300 Year Archival grade Mitsui Gold, now made in the US,
    in
    Colorado.
    ...."

    They are great ... I love them ... BUT

    CD-R only!

    NO ARCHIVAL DVDs ... (yet).







    <BILL bs.xxxxxxxxxx.corn> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 18:11:51 -0500, Ron <> wrote:
    >
    > >One place to start is with your manufacturer to see what it recommends.
    > >I use a new Plextor and it is mighty particular with anything not on
    > >the compatibility list. Right now I am having very good luck with Sony
    > >DVD-R's. Another thing to consider would be a USB hard drive. They have
    > >come way down in price and a good hard drive will probably outlast
    > >dvd's....and you can always keep your file structures, etc. I keep one
    > >in the back of my car in case the house burns down....
    > >
    > >Antony wrote:
    > >> Evening all
    > >>
    > >> I would like to start archiving the 80gb of photos which are currently

    on my
    > >> hard drive to Dvd, however i'm a little confused as i don't know which

    brand
    > >> or dye to use.
    > >>
    > >> What do you guys use, are the run of the mill Dvd's ok or should i be

    using
    > >> certain brand/dye.
    > >>
    > >> Cheers all
    > >>
    > >> Antony
    > >>
    > >>
    > >>

    >
    >
    >
    > There is One brand and was posted in the news group by a Photographer, I

    have
    > the link and info some ware..
    >
    >
    > These are the 300 Year Archival grade Mitsui Gold, now made in the

    US, in
    > Colorado. the Jap firm was sold to a firm in Italy..
    >
    > If you are interested I will post the info..
    >
    >
    RSD99, Feb 13, 2005
    #5
  6. BILL bs.xxxxxxxxxx.corn writes:

    > On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 18:11:51 -0500, Ron <> wrote:
    >
    >>One place to start is with your manufacturer to see what it recommends.
    >>I use a new Plextor and it is mighty particular with anything not on
    >>the compatibility list. Right now I am having very good luck with Sony
    >>DVD-R's. Another thing to consider would be a USB hard drive. They have
    >>come way down in price and a good hard drive will probably outlast
    >>dvd's....and you can always keep your file structures, etc. I keep one
    >>in the back of my car in case the house burns down....
    >>
    >>Antony wrote:
    >>> Evening all
    >>>
    >>> I would like to start archiving the 80gb of photos which are currently on my
    >>> hard drive to Dvd, however i'm a little confused as i don't know which brand
    >>> or dye to use.
    >>>
    >>> What do you guys use, are the run of the mill Dvd's ok or should i be using
    >>> certain brand/dye.
    >>>
    >>> Cheers all
    >>>
    >>> Antony
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>

    >
    >
    >
    > There is One brand and was posted in the news group by a Photographer, I have
    > the link and info some ware..
    >
    >
    > These are the 300 Year Archival grade Mitsui Gold, now made in the US, in
    > Colorado. the Jap firm was sold to a firm in Italy..


    Do they make a DVD yet? That's archival, I mean?
    --
    David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
    RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
    Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
    Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>
    David Dyer-Bennet, Feb 15, 2005
    #6
  7. On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 15:14:25 -0600, David Dyer-Bennet <> wrote:

    >BILL bs.xxxxxxxxxx.corn writes:
    >
    >> On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 18:11:51 -0500, Ron <> wrote:
    >>
    >>>One place to start is with your manufacturer to see what it recommends.
    >>>I use a new Plextor and it is mighty particular with anything not on
    >>>the compatibility list. Right now I am having very good luck with Sony
    >>>DVD-R's. Another thing to consider would be a USB hard drive. They have
    >>>come way down in price and a good hard drive will probably outlast
    >>>dvd's....and you can always keep your file structures, etc. I keep one
    >>>in the back of my car in case the house burns down....
    >>>
    >>>Antony wrote:
    >>>> Evening all
    >>>>
    >>>> I would like to start archiving the 80gb of photos which are currently on my
    >>>> hard drive to Dvd, however i'm a little confused as i don't know which brand
    >>>> or dye to use.
    >>>>
    >>>> What do you guys use, are the run of the mill Dvd's ok or should i be using
    >>>> certain brand/dye.
    >>>>
    >>>> Cheers all
    >>>>
    >>>> Antony
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>

    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> There is One brand and was posted in the news group by a Photographer, I have
    >> the link and info some ware..
    >>
    >>
    >> These are the 300 Year Archival grade Mitsui Gold, now made in the US, in
    >> Colorado. the Jap firm was sold to a firm in Italy..

    >
    >Do they make a DVD yet? That's archival, I mean?





    Have a read of this, but why Pick DVD-R....??


    http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/11368
    BILL bs.xxxxxxxxxx.corn, Feb 16, 2005
    #7
  8. BILL bs.xxxxxxxxxx.corn writes:

    > Have a read of this, but why Pick DVD-R....??
    >
    > http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/11368


    Good, that's the first I've seen of extended-life DVD blanks. Of
    course "the cost of premium-grade DVD can be as little as a few
    dollars per piece" is a bit scary.

    As to why DVD-R -- I dunno why they chose it, but that's the one that
    I could actually use, so I'm not complaining. It had a clear early
    lead. They may be figuring the medical people invested in it and
    haven't upgraded drives since then.
    --
    David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
    RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
    Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
    Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>
    David Dyer-Bennet, Feb 16, 2005
    #8
  9. Antony

    Bill Tuthill Guest

    David Dyer-Bennet <> wrote:
    >
    > Do they make a DVD yet? That's archival, I mean?


    Yes, see this, presumably these would work for DVD+R also:

    http://www.mam-a.com/products/dvd_product_list.htm

    As to whether they are archival, it's too soon to tell.
    The Mitsui (non MAM-A) gold/phthalocyanine optical discs
    perform well in accelerated aging tests, but in real life,
    dye fading has been observed.
    Bill Tuthill, Feb 16, 2005
    #9
  10. Antony

    -hh Guest

    Antony wrote:
    > Evening all
    >
    > I would like to start archiving the 80gb of photos which are
    > currently on my hard drive to Dvd, however i'm a little
    > confused as i don't know which brand or dye to use.


    Unfortunately, I'd say the answer is "None of them".

    And this has nothing to do with Brand A vs B, etc. Its the DVD format
    itself.

    Check out Ken Rockwell's website. He states:

    "...Even worse, DVDs were never designed with the error correction
    levels of CDs and I've heard people who know warn against them for data
    archiving. We designed the DVD for MPG video where we can loose
    data..."

    In other words, the DVD format does not have a robust data error
    checking built into its encoding scheme on purpose. Even using the
    "best" media can't eliminate this as a basic architectural limitation.

    - - -

    What was recommended to me was to get an external USB/Firewire drive
    enclosure that uses standard 3.5" hard drives that each gets mounted on
    a removable sled. Here's one example of one such product (no
    endorsement implied):

    http://www.firewiremax.com/fire-wire-1394-ilink/firremcaskit.html

    The archiving plan is 3 copies, so you buy 1 enclosure + 3 sleds + 3
    drives.

    For the above example vendor, the enclosure + sleds runs $85 + 3*$14 =
    $127, plus pricewatch is claiming that 250GB drives are currently
    running just over $100 each, so for ~$500, you get 250GB of redundant
    storage.

    You can do the same thin with the 35GB Iomega REV drive, but you'll pay
    roughly the same price, but only end up with 35GB of redundant storage.
    The REV is a lousy product choice because of its comparatively high
    cost per GB.

    Antony wrote:
    > Evening all
    >
    > I would like to start archiving the 80gb of photos which are
    > currently on my hard drive to Dvd, however i'm a little
    > confused as i don't know which brand or dye to use.


    Unfortunately, I'd say the answer is "None of them".

    And this has nothing to do with Brand A vs B, etc. Its the DVD format
    itself.

    Check out Ken Rockwell's website. He states:

    "...Even worse, DVDs were never designed with the error correction
    levels of CDs and I've heard people who know warn against them for data
    archiving. We designed the DVD for MPG video where we can loose
    data..."

    In other words, the DVD format does not have a robust data error
    checking built into its encoding scheme on purpose. Even using the
    "best" media can't eliminate this as a basic architectural limitation.

    - - -

    What was recommended to me was to get an external USB/Firewire drive
    enclosure that uses standard 3.5" hard drives that each gets mounted on
    a removable sled. Here's one example of one such product (no
    endorsement implied):

    http://www.firewiremax.com/fire-wire-1394-ilink/firremcaskit.html

    The archiving plan is 3 copies, so you buy 1 enclosure + 3 sleds + 3
    drives.

    For the above example vendor, the enclosure + sleds runs $85 + 3*$14 =
    $127, plus pricewatch is claiming that 250GB drives are currently
    running just over $100 each, so for ~$500, you get 250GB of redundant
    storage.

    You can do the same thin with the 35GB Iomega REV drive, but you'll pay
    roughly the same price, but only end up with 35GB of redundant storage.
    At ~7x higher cost per GB, the REV is a lousy product choice.


    Antony wrote:
    > Evening all
    >
    > I would like to start archiving the 80gb of photos which are
    > currently on my hard drive to Dvd, however i'm a little
    > confused as i don't know which brand or dye to use.


    Unfortunately, I'd say the answer is "None of them".

    And this has nothing to do with Brand A vs B, etc. Its the DVD format
    itself.

    Check out Ken Rockwell's website. He states:

    "...Even worse, DVDs were never designed with the error correction
    levels of CDs and I've heard people who know warn against them for data
    archiving. We designed the DVD for MPG video where we can loose
    data..."

    In other words, the DVD format does not have a robust data error
    checking built into its encoding scheme on purpose. Even using the
    "best" media can't eliminate this as a basic architectural limitation.

    - - -

    What was recommended to me was to get an external USB/Firewire drive
    enclosure that uses standard 3.5" hard drives that each gets mounted on
    a removable sled. Here's one example of one such product (no
    endorsement implied):

    http://www.firewiremax.com/fire-wire-1394-ilink/firremcaskit.html

    The archiving plan is 3 copies, so you buy 1 enclosure + 3 sleds + 3
    drives.

    For the above example vendor, the enclosure + sleds runs $85 + 3*$14 =
    $127, plus pricewatch is claiming that 250GB drives are currently
    running just over $100 each, so for ~$500, you get 250GB of redundant
    storage.

    You can do the same thin with the 35GB Iomega REV drive, but you'll pay
    roughly the same price, but only end up with 35GB of redundant storage.
    At ~7x higher cost per GB, the REV is a poor value.


    FWIW, since you're only looking for 80GB of storage, you could back
    down from 250GB drives to 160GB drives (only 2x the 80GB you currently
    say you need) and these are currently ~$65 each, so the total cost
    would come down to around $350.


    -hh
    -hh, Feb 16, 2005
    #10
  11. Antony

    RSD99 Guest

    If you read carefully, their selling points were

    = = = = = Begin Quote = = = = =
    Maxell Medical DVD-R's hardcoat top layer delivers increased data longevity
    and protection for twice the archival and storage lifespan. Compared to
    conventional DVDs, Maxell Medical DVD-R is:

    -- 40 times more scratch-resistant

    -- 20 times more dust-resistant

    -- 20 percent more light-resistant

    -- Smudge- and fingerprint-repellent
    = = = = = End Quote = = = = =

    OK ... so they have enhanced PHYSICAL properties with a "tougher" outer
    (case) materials.

    How about the actual data layer? is **that** archival? It seems to me that
    the selling point to Mitsui's Archival Gold (CD) disks is the superior
    properties of the actual data recording layer.

    IMHO: It appears that "More Information" is needed.









    "David Dyer-Bennet" <> wrote in message
    news:-b.net...
    > BILL bs.xxxxxxxxxx.corn writes:
    >
    > > Have a read of this, but why Pick DVD-R....??
    > >
    > > http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/11368

    >
    > Good, that's the first I've seen of extended-life DVD blanks. Of
    > course "the cost of premium-grade DVD can be as little as a few
    > dollars per piece" is a bit scary.
    >
    > As to why DVD-R -- I dunno why they chose it, but that's the one that
    > I could actually use, so I'm not complaining. It had a clear early
    > lead. They may be figuring the medical people invested in it and
    > haven't upgraded drives since then.
    > --
    > David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
    > RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
    > Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/>

    <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
    > Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>
    RSD99, Feb 16, 2005
    #11
  12. Antony

    Jeremy Guest

    "-hh" <> wrote in message >
    > "...Even worse, DVDs were never designed with the error correction
    > levels of CDs and I've heard people who know warn against them for data
    > archiving.


    Unfortunately, CDs were not designed as archival media, either.

    The Library of Congress and the National Archives have been reportedly
    experimenting with CDs that have a layer of glass shielding their data side.
    I don't know what their findings have revealed.

    The exceedingly frustrating aspect of this is that we are all burning CDs in
    big numbers, hoping that they will still be readable in 75 years, and
    knowing that it is unlikely that there will be any CD readers in another 25
    years. In addition, the file formats may become the data equivalent of
    dinosaurs by then.

    Kodak suggests, on their website, that one way to archive photos is to make
    PRINTS of them, and to store them under as close to optimal conditions as
    possible. The more I read about the pitfalls of file formats and media
    life, the more sensible that recommendation sounds.
    Jeremy, Feb 16, 2005
    #12
  13. Antony

    Bill Tuthill Guest

    -hh <> wrote:
    >
    > Check out Ken Rockwell's website. He states:
    >
    > "...Even worse, DVDs were never designed with the error correction
    > levels of CDs and I've heard people who know warn against them for data
    > archiving. We designed the DVD for MPG video where we can loose data..."
    >
    > In other words, the DVD format does not have a robust data error
    > checking built into its encoding scheme on purpose. Even using the
    > "best" media can't eliminate this as a basic architectural limitation.


    Not to denigrate Ken Rockwell (I'll save that for another time)
    but this is wrong. DVD-R and especially DVD+R are data formats,
    not movie formats, and have error correction built in. See:

    http://cdfreaks.com/article/113
    Bill Tuthill, Feb 17, 2005
    #13
  14. Antony

    Ron Guest

    I was a professional historian for many years and did a fair amount of
    research in archives and got to know archivists well. Even did a
    project for the NY Times to put a lot of material on microfiche
    (remember that!). The one thing we can count on is that there is a lot
    of fretting, as well as unknowns about any new archival medium. The
    other thing we can count on is that most media end up working pretty
    well if precautions are taken, and very often the issue is how much we
    want to go through aggravation, particularly if the archived material
    is to be viewed often. That's why many historical societies and
    libraries are backing up precious photos and documents to cdr's or
    dvd's, with one copy going into storage and the other being made
    available to the public. The photos and paper thereby get an extra
    layer of protection.

    I've had two instructional experiences today that allow me to
    appreciate digital media. First, I'm now listening to a digital
    transcription of a cassette tape made from a long playing record over
    thirty years ago. I was able to clean it up with an audio program and
    having backed it up to both a cdr and dvd it sounds almost new. But
    interestingly, the tape itself is still in fine shape, and that despite
    predictions that cassette tapes had a short life span. In fact, of my
    many hundreds of cassettes, only a small handful have failed, and
    mainly from having a pressure pad all off (easily fixed). I'll be
    thrilled if my cd's and dvd's last that long, but won't worry because
    another medium will be coming along soon enough to replace them
    (probably nifty mass storage low priced flash cards -- anybody know
    anything about their lifespans?)

    My other (sad) but instructive lesson is that this morning I spilled
    some coffee on an old and precious slide I had scanned. The phone rang
    and, well, you know the rest of the story. Fortunately, I had done my
    scan and the photo is safely tucked away on a hard drive and website.
    Soon it will be on a dvd-r. None of my photos will meet the fate of my
    family's photo collection, which was destroyed in a flood.

    Finally, were I truly worried about all this I would go the route of
    purchasing hard drives and putting them in USB enclosures or just
    getting good external products marketed by Maxtor, etc. I've used both
    succesfully and am guessing that USB will be around a lot longer than
    cdr's and dvd's. Just guessing, but not really fretting. Oh, now I do
    a fair amount of work around healthcare IT and have had dealings with
    backup/security companies and I do know they are placing a heck of a
    lot of faith in dvd technology, and many large corporations, including
    Dell, are offering third party dvd solutions to their medical
    customers.


    Bill Tuthill wrote:
    > -hh <> wrote:
    > >
    > > Check out Ken Rockwell's website. He states:
    > >
    > > "...Even worse, DVDs were never designed with the error correction
    > > levels of CDs and I've heard people who know warn against them for

    data
    > > archiving. We designed the DVD for MPG video where we can loose

    data..."
    > >
    > > In other words, the DVD format does not have a robust data error
    > > checking built into its encoding scheme on purpose. Even using the
    > > "best" media can't eliminate this as a basic architectural

    limitation.
    >
    > Not to denigrate Ken Rockwell (I'll save that for another time)
    > but this is wrong. DVD-R and especially DVD+R are data formats,
    > not movie formats, and have error correction built in. See:
    >
    > http://cdfreaks.com/article/113
    Ron, Feb 17, 2005
    #14
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