Fwd: Switching to VoIP--O'Reilly's latest release

Discussion in 'UK VOIP' started by davew, Sep 30, 2005.

  1. davew

    davew Guest

    Recieved this in my email:


    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    VoIP has advanced Internet-based telephony to a viable solution, piquing
    the interest of companies small and large. Developed from real-world
    experience by a senior developer, O'Reilly's "Switching to VoIP" provides
    solutions for the most common VoIP migration challenges.

    If you're a network professional who is migrating from a traditional
    telephony system to a modern, feature-rich network, this book is a
    must-have. You'll discover the strengths and weaknesses of
    circuit-switched and packet-switched networks, how VoIP systems impact
    network infrastructure, as well as solutions for common challenges
    involved with IP voice migrations. Among the challenges discussed and
    projects presented:

    -building a softPBX
    -configuring IP phones
    -ensuring quality of service
    -scalability
    -standards-compliance
    -topological considerations
    -coordinating a complete system ?switchover?
    -migrating applications like voicemail and directory services
    -retro-interfacing to traditional telephony
    -supporting mobile users
    -security and survivability
    -dealing with the challenges of NAT

    You'll learn how to build an IP-based or legacy-compatible phone system
    and voicemail system complete with e-mail integration while becoming
    familiar with VoIP protocols and devices. "Switching to VoIP" remains
    vendor-neutral and advocates standards, not brands. If VoIP has your
    attention, this book will help you build your own system, install it, and
    begin making calls. It's the only thing left between you and a modern
    telecom network.


    To order your copy or for more information, see:
    http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/switchingvoip/
    or call 1-800-998-9938
    or email

    Switching to VoIP
    By Theodore Wallingford
    Publisher: O'Reilly
    ISBN: 0-596-00868-6, 502 pages, $39.95 US, $55.95 CA
    http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/switchingvoip/

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    davew, Sep 30, 2005
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. davew

    Ivor Jones Guest

    Re: Switching to VoIP--O'Reilly's latest release

    "davew" <daviey.walker*SPAM*virgin.net> wrote in message
    news:
    > Recieved this in my email:


    [rest of blatant advert snipped]

    So..?

    Ivor
    Ivor Jones, Oct 1, 2005
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. davew

    Heimo Hetl Guest

    Re: Switching to VoIP--O'Reilly's latest release

    Ivor Jones <> wrote:

    > [rest of blatant advert snipped]
    > So..?


    It's a decent book nonetheless. IMHO.

    cheers
    Heimo


    --
    l'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux.
    Heimo Hetl, Oct 1, 2005
    #3
  4. davew

    Ivor Jones Guest

    Re: Switching to VoIP--O'Reilly's latest release

    "Heimo Hetl" <> wrote in message
    news:1h3qd74.90lbxxub6qoyN%
    > Ivor Jones <> wrote:
    >
    > > [rest of blatant advert snipped]
    > > So..?

    >
    > It's a decent book nonetheless. IMHO.
    >
    > cheers
    > Heimo


    Maybe, but a non-advertisement group isn't the place to advertise it..!
    There are groups specifically set aside for the purpose, this isn't one of
    them.

    Ivor
    Ivor Jones, Oct 1, 2005
    #4
  5. davew

    Ian Guest

    Re: Switching to VoIP--O'Reilly's latest release

    > So..?
    >
    > Ivor
    >

    Well, These are some of the best "technical" books avalible. and it is of
    interest to anyone who has a tecnical interest in deploying voip solutions.
    You may be happy with a ATA lashed to a 15+ year old analog PBX but some
    people here are deploying comercial solutions and this will a usefull
    referance book.
    This wasnt an advert, Dave just forwarded an email he had received.

    If you keep on like this it will be just you left here feeding any troll who
    wanders by.

    Ian
    Ian, Oct 1, 2005
    #5
  6. davew

    Ivor Jones Guest

    Re: Switching to VoIP--O'Reilly's latest release

    "Ian" <spam"AT"bathfordhill.co.uk> wrote in message
    news:

    [snip]

    > This wasnt an advert, Dave just forwarded an email he had
    > received.


    It was an advert. However useful it may be, it concluded with the words
    "to order your copy...." followed by a link, which is as blatant an advert
    as you can get. If he had omitted this part then I wouldn't have
    complained.

    Ivor
    Ivor Jones, Oct 1, 2005
    #6
  7. davew

    Ian Guest

    Re: Switching to VoIP--O'Reilly's latest release

    "Ivor Jones" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    >
    > "Ian" <spam"AT"bathfordhill.co.uk> wrote in message
    > news:
    >
    > [snip]
    >
    > > This wasnt an advert, Dave just forwarded an email he had
    > > received.

    >
    > It was an advert. However useful it may be, it concluded with the words
    > "to order your copy...." followed by a link, which is as blatant an advert
    > as you can get. If he had omitted this part then I wouldn't have
    > complained.
    >
    > Ivor
    >

    What ever, Just dont forget to turn the lights off when you leave....

    Ian
    Ian, Oct 1, 2005
    #7
  8. davew

    Ivor Jones Guest

    Re: Switching to VoIP--O'Reilly's latest release

    "Ian" <spam"AT"bathfordhill.co.uk> wrote in message
    news:
    > "Ivor Jones" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    > >
    > >
    > > "Ian" <spam"AT"bathfordhill.co.uk> wrote in message
    > > news:
    > >
    > > [snip]
    > >
    > > > This wasnt an advert, Dave just forwarded an email he
    > > > had received.

    > >
    > > It was an advert. However useful it may be, it
    > > concluded with the words "to order your copy...."
    > > followed by a link, which is as blatant an advert as
    > > you can get. If he had omitted this part then I
    > > wouldn't have complained.
    > >
    > > Ivor
    > >

    > What ever, Just dont forget to turn the lights off when
    > you leave....
    >
    > Ian


    Read the group charter. If a few more people did so we wouldn't be having
    this conversation.

    Ivor
    Ivor Jones, Oct 1, 2005
    #8
  9. davew

    Ian Guest

    Re: Switching to VoIP--O'Reilly's latest release

    "Ivor Jones" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    >
    > "Ian" <spam"AT"bathfordhill.co.uk> wrote in message
    > news:
    > > "Ivor Jones" <> wrote in message
    > > news:...
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > "Ian" <spam"AT"bathfordhill.co.uk> wrote in message
    > > > news:
    > > >
    > > > [snip]
    > > >
    > > > > This wasnt an advert, Dave just forwarded an email he
    > > > > had received.
    > > >
    > > > It was an advert. However useful it may be, it
    > > > concluded with the words "to order your copy...."
    > > > followed by a link, which is as blatant an advert as
    > > > you can get. If he had omitted this part then I
    > > > wouldn't have complained.
    > > >
    > > > Ivor
    > > >

    > > What ever, Just dont forget to turn the lights off when
    > > you leave....
    > >
    > > Ian

    >
    > Read the group charter. If a few more people did so we wouldn't be having
    > this conversation.
    >
    > Ivor

    OK you asked for this.

    For other users of the group here follows emails that Ivor sent to me when I
    rewrote the charter for him:-
    "Hi Ian,

    Many thanks for your help with the charter etc. and the chat last night. I

    have resubmitted the charter etc. to Chris at Control with almost your

    exact wording, I hope you don't mind..!

    Let's see how things go from here on.

    Ivor"

    And

    "

    Hi Ian,

    Thanks for the message. I didn't really intend this to be a purely

    technical group, indeed I am a very non-technical person; the majority I

    think don't have a clue what FoIP, VOB and VON are, I certainly had to

    look them up..! VoIP however is a commonly understood term, hence the

    choice of name."

    "

    So Ivor I havent just READ the Charter , I (re)wrote it

    This is my final post here unless I see things improve to a very large
    degree.

    TTFN Ian
    Ian, Oct 1, 2005
    #9
  10. davew

    Ivor Jones Guest

    Re: Switching to VoIP--O'Reilly's latest release

    "Ian" <spam"AT"bathfordhill.co.uk> wrote in message
    news:

    [snip]

    > So Ivor I havent just READ the Charter , I (re)wrote it
    >
    > This is my final post here unless I see things improve to
    > a very large degree.
    >
    > TTFN Ian


    Sorry Ian, I didn't recognise the name. But it's still an advert if it
    tries to sell something, which "to place your order..." definitely does.

    Ivor
    Ivor Jones, Oct 1, 2005
    #10
  11. davew

    Brian A Guest

    Re: Switching to VoIP--O'Reilly's latest release

    On Sat, 1 Oct 2005 19:41:30 +0100, "Ian" <spam"AT"bathfordhill.co.uk>
    wrote:

    >
    >"Ivor Jones" <> wrote in message
    >news:...
    >>
    >>
    >> "Ian" <spam"AT"bathfordhill.co.uk> wrote in message
    >> news:
    >> > "Ivor Jones" <> wrote in message
    >> > news:...
    >> > >
    >> > >
    >> > > "Ian" <spam"AT"bathfordhill.co.uk> wrote in message
    >> > > news:
    >> > >
    >> > > [snip]
    >> > >
    >> > > > This wasnt an advert, Dave just forwarded an email he
    >> > > > had received.
    >> > >
    >> > > It was an advert. However useful it may be, it
    >> > > concluded with the words "to order your copy...."
    >> > > followed by a link, which is as blatant an advert as
    >> > > you can get. If he had omitted this part then I
    >> > > wouldn't have complained.
    >> > >
    >> > > Ivor
    >> > >
    >> > What ever, Just dont forget to turn the lights off when
    >> > you leave....
    >> >
    >> > Ian

    >>
    >> Read the group charter. If a few more people did so we wouldn't be having
    >> this conversation.
    >>
    >> Ivor

    >OK you asked for this.
    >
    >For other users of the group here follows emails that Ivor sent to me when I
    >rewrote the charter for him:-
    >"Hi Ian,
    >
    >Many thanks for your help with the charter etc. and the chat last night. I
    >
    >have resubmitted the charter etc. to Chris at Control with almost your
    >
    >exact wording, I hope you don't mind..!
    >
    >Let's see how things go from here on.
    >
    >Ivor"
    >
    >And
    >
    >"
    >
    >Hi Ian,
    >
    >Thanks for the message. I didn't really intend this to be a purely
    >
    >technical group, indeed I am a very non-technical person; the majority I
    >
    >think don't have a clue what FoIP, VOB and VON are, I certainly had to
    >
    >look them up..! VoIP however is a commonly understood term, hence the
    >
    >choice of name."
    >
    >"
    >
    >So Ivor I havent just READ the Charter , I (re)wrote it
    >
    >This is my final post here unless I see things improve to a very large
    >degree.
    >
    >TTFN Ian
    >

    Unless there is something I have missed I can't see how this could
    possibly have been posted with the intention of it being an advert.
    This is the O'Reilly web site. How could the poster hope to gain from
    a sale from that site? As far as inclusion of the URL is concerned,
    well, this is useful in this case.

    Further, such a posting is of interest to many who have a technical
    interest in VOIP.
    It is a very diffrerent situation when there is a
    reseller's/associate's link or the poster owns the web site.

    Even so, a SINGLE posting, simply informing people of the existence
    of a NEW site I would deem to be OK providing it was 'low key' and
    didn't advertise anything specific.

    To try to put this in context. The BBC does not carry adverts but they
    may do a book review or mention a web site/company that people might
    find of interest. This might even be one where the site does make a
    monetary gain but this is not the original intention for its
    inclusion.








    Remove 'no_spam_' from email address.
    Brian A, Oct 1, 2005
    #11
  12. davew

    davew Guest

    Re: Switching to VoIP--O'Reilly's latest release

    Ivor Jones wrote:
    > "Heimo Hetl" <> wrote in message
    > news:1h3qd74.90lbxxub6qoyN%
    >
    >>Ivor Jones <> wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>>[rest of blatant advert snipped]
    >>>So..?

    >>
    >>It's a decent book nonetheless. IMHO.
    >>
    >>cheers
    >>Heimo

    >
    >
    > Maybe, but a non-advertisement group isn't the place to advertise it..!
    > There are groups specifically set aside for the purpose, this isn't one of
    > them.
    >
    > Ivor
    >
    >


    Oh Ivor, why be like that? I am in no way affiliated with the producers
    of this book. O'Reilly's books are well known for being the gospel of
    technology!

    Surely the posts on Dixon's new VOIP service is a "blatant advert"?
    davew, Oct 1, 2005
    #12
  13. davew

    Ivor Jones Guest

    Re: Switching to VoIP--O'Reilly's latest release

    "davew" <daviey.walker*SPAM*virgin.net> wrote in message
    news:

    [snip]

    > Oh Ivor, why be like that? I am in no way affiliated
    > with the producers of this book. O'Reilly's books are
    > well known for being the gospel of technology!
    >
    > Surely the posts on Dixon's new VOIP service is a
    > "blatant advert"?


    The difference is that the posts about that don't include a link to order
    the service. Your original post included the words "to order your
    copy...." followed by a link to the relevant site.

    If you'd removed that part and just included the information it would have
    been different. That's the difference between a recommendation and an
    advert.

    No offence meant, but the charter of this group is clear.

    All the best,

    Ivor
    Ivor Jones, Oct 1, 2005
    #13
  14. davew

    Ivor Jones Guest

    Re: Switching to VoIP--O'Reilly's latest release

    "Brian A" <> wrote in message
    news:

    [snip]

    > Unless there is something I have missed I can't see how
    > this could possibly have been posted with the intention
    > of it being an advert. This is the O'Reilly web site.
    > How could the poster hope to gain from a sale from that
    > site? As far as inclusion of the URL is concerned, well,
    > this is useful in this case.


    The words "to order your copy..." were included. That was the part that
    made it an advert. If that had been omitted I wouldn't have said anything.

    Ivor
    Ivor Jones, Oct 1, 2005
    #14
  15. davew

    davew Guest

    Re: Switching to VoIP--O'Reilly's latest release

    Ivor Jones wrote:
    > "davew" <daviey.walker*SPAM*virgin.net> wrote in message
    > news:
    >
    > [snip]
    >
    >
    >>Oh Ivor, why be like that? I am in no way affiliated
    >>with the producers of this book. O'Reilly's books are
    >>well known for being the gospel of technology!
    >>
    >>Surely the posts on Dixon's new VOIP service is a
    >>"blatant advert"?

    >
    >
    > The difference is that the posts about that don't include a link to order
    > the service. Your original post included the words "to order your
    > copy...." followed by a link to the relevant site.
    >
    > If you'd removed that part and just included the information it would have
    > been different. That's the difference between a recommendation and an
    > advert.
    >
    > No offence meant, but the charter of this group is clear.
    >
    > All the best,
    >
    > Ivor
    >
    >


    Ivor, I'm sorry but i do take offence. Going by your definition of the
    charter, why was your post below acceptable?

    <Quote>
    Re: I'm getting rid of my phone: advice needed for alternative
    "At the risk of getting blasted by the group trolls, if you want a
    system to try out which is free to set up and use, then try
    www.sipgate.co.uk - you get a free geographic phone number for incoming
    calls, you can call other Sipgate users and 0800 numbers free, you only
    need to pay if you want to call ordinary public phone numbers, for this
    you add credit like Skype or a PAYG mobile."
    </Quote>

    The above is clearly advertising a service - an advertless
    recommendation wouldn't advise the OP to try it, if you'd just stated
    that you use it and are happy with it - then it would be a recommendation.

    The charter, http://www.usenet.org.uk/uk.telecom.voip.html, is not clear
    .. Usenet AFAIK do not have a formal definition of an advertisement.
    Use net do state that, "short and discrete announcements of products
    truly relevant to a particular group can be quite useful". Was the
    product relevant?

    <Quote>
    Usenet go on to state
    (ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet/news.answers/usenet/advertising/how-to/part1):

    "If you have a product or a message that is specifically related to a
    particular Usenet newsgroup, and you want to let people know about it,
    it's *usually* all right to post *one* notice about it.

    Note the word "notice." A notice is a brief mention of the product with
    information about how interested persons can find out more. It's not a
    sales pitch. It's not an advertisement. It's not a "BUY BUY BUY" sort of
    message. It's a notice. "
    </Quote>

    So by my understanding usenet believe it is acceptable, why don't you?
    davew, Oct 1, 2005
    #15
  16. davew

    Ivor Jones Guest

    Re: Switching to VoIP--O'Reilly's latest release

    "davew" <daviey.walker*SPAM*virgin.net> wrote in message
    news:
    > Ivor Jones wrote:
    > > "davew" <daviey.walker*SPAM*virgin.net> wrote in message
    > > news:
    > >
    > > [snip]
    > >
    > >
    > > > Oh Ivor, why be like that? I am in no way affiliated
    > > > with the producers of this book. O'Reilly's books are
    > > > well known for being the gospel of technology!
    > > >
    > > > Surely the posts on Dixon's new VOIP service is a
    > > > "blatant advert"?

    > >
    > >
    > > The difference is that the posts about that don't
    > > include a link to order the service. Your original post
    > > included the words "to order your copy...." followed by
    > > a link to the relevant site. If you'd removed that part and just
    > > included the
    > > information it would have been different. That's the
    > > difference between a recommendation and an advert.
    > >
    > > No offence meant, but the charter of this group is
    > > clear. All the best,
    > >
    > > Ivor
    > >
    > >

    >
    > Ivor, I'm sorry but i do take offence. Going by your
    > definition of the charter, why was your post below
    > acceptable?
    > <Quote>
    > Re: I'm getting rid of my phone: advice needed for
    > alternative "At the risk of getting blasted by the group
    > trolls, if you want a system to try out which is free to set up and use,
    > then
    > try www.sipgate.co.uk - you get a free geographic phone
    > number for incoming calls, you can call other Sipgate
    > users and 0800 numbers free, you only need to pay if you
    > want to call ordinary public phone numbers, for this you
    > add credit like Skype or a PAYG mobile." </Quote>
    >
    > The above is clearly advertising a service - an advertless
    > recommendation wouldn't advise the OP to try it, if you'd
    > just stated that you use it and are happy with it - then
    > it would be a recommendation.


    No, because nobody is getting any direct revenue as a result - there isn't
    a charge, unless you want to use the PSTN; the system is free to try. With
    respect, your original post included the words "to order your copy...."
    which was the defining part.

    Anyway I don't propose to labour the point, we disagree and I doubt I will
    persuade you otherwise.

    Regards

    Ivor
    Ivor Jones, Oct 1, 2005
    #16
  17. Re: Switching to VoIP--O'Reilly's latest release

    Ivor if you didnt like the post their is no need to flog it to death
    now is their with your clear dislike for the post. Simple thing would
    have been to just delete the post instead of banging on about it.

    You remind me of Mrs Merton on itv a few years ago--now she liked a
    "GOOD DEBATE" just as much as you do but unfortunately about the most
    boring of subjects.

    James
    www.crystal-power.co.uk, Oct 1, 2005
    #17
  18. davew

    davew Guest

    Re: Switching to VoIP--O'Reilly's latest release

    Ivor Jones wrote:
    > "davew" <daviey.walker*SPAM*virgin.net> wrote in message
    > news:
    >
    >>Ivor Jones wrote:
    >>
    >>>"davew" <daviey.walker*SPAM*virgin.net> wrote in message
    >>>news:
    >>>
    >>>[snip]
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>Oh Ivor, why be like that? I am in no way affiliated
    >>>>with the producers of this book. O'Reilly's books are
    >>>>well known for being the gospel of technology!
    >>>>
    >>>>Surely the posts on Dixon's new VOIP service is a
    >>>>"blatant advert"?
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>The difference is that the posts about that don't
    >>>include a link to order the service. Your original post
    >>>included the words "to order your copy...." followed by
    >>>a link to the relevant site. If you'd removed that part and just
    >>>included the
    >>>information it would have been different. That's the
    >>>difference between a recommendation and an advert.
    >>>
    >>>No offence meant, but the charter of this group is
    >>>clear. All the best,
    >>>
    >>>Ivor
    >>>
    >>>

    >>
    >>Ivor, I'm sorry but i do take offence. Going by your
    >>definition of the charter, why was your post below
    >>acceptable?
    >><Quote>
    >>Re: I'm getting rid of my phone: advice needed for
    >>alternative "At the risk of getting blasted by the group
    >>trolls, if you want a system to try out which is free to set up and use,
    >>then
    >>try www.sipgate.co.uk - you get a free geographic phone
    >>number for incoming calls, you can call other Sipgate
    >>users and 0800 numbers free, you only need to pay if you
    >>want to call ordinary public phone numbers, for this you
    >>add credit like Skype or a PAYG mobile." </Quote>
    >>
    >>The above is clearly advertising a service - an advertless
    >>recommendation wouldn't advise the OP to try it, if you'd
    >>just stated that you use it and are happy with it - then
    >>it would be a recommendation.

    >
    >
    > No, because nobody is getting any direct revenue as a result - there isn't
    > a charge, unless you want to use the PSTN; the system is free to try. With
    > respect, your original post included the words "to order your copy...."
    > which was the defining part.
    >
    > Anyway I don't propose to labour the point, we disagree and I doubt I will
    > persuade you otherwise.
    >
    > Regards
    >
    > Ivor
    >
    >


    Ivor,

    It is unfair to make a complaint about something and then be unwilling
    to 'labour the point'.

    Sipgate make money from a call terminating through there service IIRC.
    So advertising sipgate does earn them revenue. Which means that it
    is 'Advertising'! I am not going to make any money if O'Reilly sell
    more books, O'Reilly will. Same goes for Sipgate!

    The quote you have made from my original post "to order your copy...."
    could be extended by stateing "To order your copy or for more
    information...". So if i omited the words "order your copy" then the
    whole post would have been acceptable?

    Considering you are the only poster which has registerd a complaint in
    this matter, i will consider the un-moderated group to agree that it is
    an acceptable posting. So, if i find another service/product that i
    feel will interest the group i will post such. If you don't like this -
    then complain to my ISP!

    Regards,
    Dave
    davew, Oct 1, 2005
    #18
  19. davew

    Ivor Jones Guest

    Re: Switching to VoIP--O'Reilly's latest release

    "davew" <daviey.walker*SPAM*virgin.net> wrote in message
    news:

    > Ivor,
    >
    > It is unfair to make a complaint about something and then
    > be unwilling to 'labour the point'.


    Dave, I am truly sorry that I have offended you, but there really doesn't
    seem to be much point carrying on this any further as it appears I am
    never going to convince you.

    > Sipgate make money from a call terminating through there
    > service IIRC. So advertising sipgate does earn them
    > revenue. Which means that it is 'Advertising'! I am not going to make
    > any money if
    > O'Reilly sell more books, O'Reilly will. Same goes for
    > Sipgate!


    With respect, it's not quite the same thing. It's like standing on a
    soapbox saying "buy this" or saying to someone in the pub "I think this is
    good". A recommendation isn't advertising.

    > The quote you have made from my original post "to order
    > your copy...." could be extended by stateing "To order
    > your copy or for more information...". So if i omited
    > the words "order your copy" then the whole post would
    > have been acceptable?


    Yes, as I have said several times. Then it would have merely been a
    recommendation. Once someone got to the site, they could decide if they
    wanted to buy the item or not.

    > Considering you are the only poster which has registerd a
    > complaint in this matter, i will consider the
    > un-moderated group to agree that it is an acceptable
    > posting. So, if i find another service/product that i
    > feel will interest the group i will post such. If you
    > don't like this - then complain to my ISP!


    Well, you are entitled to your opinion, as I hope you will accept that I
    am. Once again I am sorry if I upset you. I sincerely hope it won't come
    to getting ISP's involved.

    Ivor
    Ivor Jones, Oct 2, 2005
    #19
  20. davew

    Guest

    Re: Switching to VoIP--O'Reilly's latest release

    On Sun, 2 Oct 2005 00:12:57 +0100, "Ivor Jones"
    <> wrote:


    >I sincerely hope it won't come to getting ISP's involved.

    Do we take that has a threat Ivor get it into your thick head that you
    do not own this group once and for all oh and when are YOU going to
    stop advertising Sipgate by the way ? .
    , Oct 2, 2005
    #20
    1. Advertising

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