Full-frame sensor digicams are always SLRs?

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by NimPhrey, Jun 25, 2008.

  1. NimPhrey

    NimPhrey Guest

    Perhaps there is a technical or economic reason. Any takers?

    Why must consumers be limited to SLRs when they want to purchase a
    full-frame digital camera.

    ~nimphrey
    "Our problems may not amount to a hill of beans. But this is our hill. And
    these are our beans."
     
    NimPhrey, Jun 25, 2008
    #1
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  2. NimPhrey

    nospam Guest

    In article <2vj8k.24578$kx.36@pd7urf3no>, NimPhrey
    <> wrote:

    > Perhaps there is a technical or economic reason. Any takers?
    >
    > Why must consumers be limited to SLRs when they want to purchase a
    > full-frame digital camera.


    they're limited to slrs for aps sized sensors too (the dp1 being the
    lone exception). even olympus with a 2x crop factor has yet to put the
    sensor in a compact camera.

    give it time, once the dslr market slows down a little, camera makers
    will put larger sensors in compact cameras.
     
    nospam, Jun 25, 2008
    #2
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  3. NimPhrey wrote:
    > Perhaps there is a technical or economic reason. Any takers?
    >
    > Why must consumers be limited to SLRs when they want to purchase a
    > full-frame digital camera.
    >


    It has to do with the limited optical zoom factor. To keep them compact
    they need small sensors. Put a large sensor in and you need a larger lens -
    it will no longer fit in your pocket even with only a three or four optical
    zoom.


    > ~nimphrey
    > "Our problems may not amount to a hill of beans. But this is our hill. And
    > these are our beans."
    >
    >



    Secret Squirrel

    --

    Ingrid Rose

    clandestin.ecureuil(insert missing symbol here)gmail.com
     
    clandestin_écureuil, Jun 25, 2008
    #3
  4. NimPhrey

    Paul Furman Guest

    NimPhrey wrote:
    > Why must consumers be limited to SLRs when they want to purchase a
    > full-frame digital camera.
    >
    > Perhaps there is a technical or economic reason. Any takers?



    The larger sensors sensors are a substantial part of the cost so it
    really wouldn't be much cheaper.

    Adding a mirror gives a better viewfinder and autofocus.

    Entry level DSLRs are already pretty small & cheap.


    Maybe now that we have live view DSLR sensors it'll be easy to roll out
    such a model. It might be interesting for Dx but Fx is still going to
    cost $2500 or so I'd guess, maybe more. There will be live view on
    smaller cheaper DSLRs in time too.

    --
    Paul Furman
    www.edgehill.net
    www.baynatives.com

    (spam filter on google groups)
     
    Paul Furman, Jun 25, 2008
    #4
  5. nospam wrote:
    > In article <2vj8k.24578$kx.36@pd7urf3no>, NimPhrey
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >> Perhaps there is a technical or economic reason. Any takers?
    >>
    >> Why must consumers be limited to SLRs when they want to purchase a
    >> full-frame digital camera.

    >
    > they're limited to slrs for aps sized sensors too (the dp1 being the
    > lone exception). even olympus with a 2x crop factor has yet to put
    > the sensor in a compact camera.
    >
    > give it time, once the dslr market slows down a little, camera makers
    > will put larger sensors in compact cameras.


    The Sony DSC-R1 also had an APS-sized sensor, and doesn't Leica make some
    non-SLR large sensor cameras?

    David
     
    David J Taylor, Jun 25, 2008
    #5
  6. NimPhrey

    nospam Guest

    In article <fFk8k.15354$>, David J
    Taylor <-this-bit.nor-this-bit.co.uk>
    wrote:

    > The Sony DSC-R1 also had an APS-sized sensor,


    true, but it's discontinued and it wasn't really all that compact.

    > and doesn't Leica make some
    > non-SLR large sensor cameras?


    the m8 is 1.3x, the camera is compact, but it's price tag is not.
     
    nospam, Jun 25, 2008
    #6
  7. nospam wrote:
    > In article <fFk8k.15354$>, David J
    > Taylor <-this-bit.nor-this-bit.co.uk>
    > wrote:
    >
    >> The Sony DSC-R1 also had an APS-sized sensor,

    >
    > true, but it's discontinued and it wasn't really all that compact.
    >
    >> and doesn't Leica make some
    >> non-SLR large sensor cameras?

    >
    > the m8 is 1.3x, the camera is compact, but it's price tag is not.


    Agreed on both. I was horrified with the size of the Sony, and it ruled
    out a purchase. I later got a Nikon DSLR and have been very pleased with
    it. The only Leica items I have are the lenses on some Panasonic compact
    cameras....

    Cheers,
    David
     
    David J Taylor, Jun 25, 2008
    #7
  8. NimPhrey

    Paul Furman Guest

    Paul Furman wrote:
    > NimPhrey wrote:
    >> Why must consumers be limited to SLRs when they want to purchase a
    >> full-frame digital camera.
    >>
    >> Perhaps there is a technical or economic reason. Any takers?

    >
    > -The larger sensors [x] are a substantial part of the cost so it
    > really wouldn't be much cheaper.
    > -Adding a mirror gives a better viewfinder and autofocus.
    > -Entry level DSLRs are already pretty small & cheap.
    >
    > Maybe now that we have live view DSLR sensors it'll be easy to roll out
    > such a model. It might be interesting for Dx but Fx is still going to
    > cost $2500 or so I'd guess, maybe more. There will be live view on
    > smaller cheaper DSLRs in time too.


    People would expect an EVF so it would end up looking & feeling like a
    small DSLR. The couple that exist are rangefinders one of which needs an
    accessory for that (awkward) and that one only has a single focal length
    fixed lens.

    The Leica uses short flange distance rangefinder lenses which don't
    perform well on digital, especially wide angle, and wide angle is
    cropped away. You could make one to accept any SLR lens pretty easy
    though, maybe we'll see such a thing.

    --
    Paul Furman
    www.edgehill.net
    www.baynatives.com

    all google groups messages filtered due to spam
     
    Paul Furman, Jun 25, 2008
    #8
  9. nospam <> wrote:
    > In article <fFk8k.15354$>, David J
    > Taylor <-this-bit.nor-this-bit.co.uk>
    > wrote:


    >> The Sony DSC-R1 also had an APS-sized sensor,


    > true, but it's discontinued and it wasn't really all that compact.


    >> and doesn't Leica make some
    >> non-SLR large sensor cameras?


    > the m8 is 1.3x, the camera is compact, but it's price tag is not.


    How long are you prepared to wait for this small inexpensive very high
    quality camera?

    --
    Chris Malcolm DoD #205
    IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
    [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]
     
    Chris Malcolm, Jun 25, 2008
    #9
  10. NimPhrey

    nospam Guest

    In article <>, Alfred
    Molon <> wrote:

    > I hope some manufacturer will launch a camera with interchangeable
    > lenses and a large sensor.


    kodak did it about 15 years ago, nikon/canon about 10 years ago, and
    others followed.

    > This camera should have a high resolution EVF
    > and a big, swivelable high res LCD.


    except that an evf is slower than an optical viewfinder, among other
    problems.

    > Possibly also fast phase detect AF.


    it's already there in current slrs.
     
    nospam, Jun 25, 2008
    #10
  11. NimPhrey

    ray Guest

    On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 10:21:54 +0200, Alfred Molon wrote:

    > In article <2vj8k.24578$kx.36@pd7urf3no>, NimPhrey says...
    >> Perhaps there is a technical or economic reason. Any takers?
    >>
    >> Why must consumers be limited to SLRs when they want to purchase a
    >> full-frame digital camera.

    >
    > I hope some manufacturer will launch a camera with interchangeable
    > lenses and a large sensor. This camera should have a high resolution EVF
    > and a big, swivelable high res LCD. Possibly also fast phase detect AF.


    Or with an option for NO LCD - I never use the .... things.
     
    ray, Jun 25, 2008
    #11
  12. NimPhrey

    Keith Baird Guest

    "NimPhrey" <> wrote:
    > Why must consumers be limited to SLRs when they want to purchase a
    > full-frame digital camera.


    "Full frame" is meaningful principally to users accustomed to 35mm
    format SLR systems, who want the same angle-of-view for a given lens in
    digital usage that they were accustomed to having with film.
    Point-and-shoot users, on the whole, aren't concerned about the relation
    of focal length to field of view, which they determine by eyeball rather
    by a millimeter marking.
     
    Keith Baird, Jun 25, 2008
    #12
  13. NimPhrey

    nospam Guest

    In article <1214370697.623179@ftpsrv1>, frederick <> wrote:

    > >> Why must consumers be limited to SLRs when they want to purchase a
    > >> full-frame digital camera.

    > >
    > > they're limited to slrs for aps sized sensors too (the dp1 being the
    > > lone exception). even olympus with a 2x crop factor has yet to put the
    > > sensor in a compact camera.

    >
    > You forgot the Leica M8.


    yes i did, but it's absurdly expensive and not something most people
    would have considered buying.
     
    nospam, Jun 25, 2008
    #13
  14. NimPhrey

    nospam Guest

    In article <>, Alfred Molon
    <> wrote:

    > > > I hope some manufacturer will launch a camera with interchangeable
    > > > lenses and a large sensor.

    > >
    > > kodak did it about 15 years ago, nikon/canon about 10 years ago, and
    > > others followed.

    >
    > Perhaps I should add: also a reasonable pixel count is needed (12MP or
    > higher).


    a number of current dslrs have 12 or more megapixels.

    > > > Possibly also fast phase detect AF.

    > >
    > > it's already there in current slrs.

    >
    > Not available in live view mode.


    nikon and canon can use phase detect for autofocus in live view,
    however, the speed advantage is lost since the mirror needs to drop.
    nevertheless, it's still faster than contrast detection.
     
    nospam, Jun 25, 2008
    #14
  15. NimPhrey

    nospam Guest

    In article <>,
    Keith Baird <> wrote:

    > "NimPhrey" <> wrote:
    > > Why must consumers be limited to SLRs when they want to purchase a
    > > full-frame digital camera.

    >
    > "Full frame" is meaningful principally to users accustomed to 35mm
    > format SLR systems, who want the same angle-of-view for a given lens in
    > digital usage that they were accustomed to having with film.
    > Point-and-shoot users, on the whole, aren't concerned about the relation
    > of focal length to field of view, which they determine by eyeball rather
    > by a millimeter marking.


    full frame cameras are meaningful to people who want better high iso
    performance, lower noise and better overall image quality, versus a
    camera with a smaller sensor.
     
    nospam, Jun 25, 2008
    #15
  16. nospam <> wrote:
    >In article <>,
    >Keith Baird <> wrote:
    >
    >> "NimPhrey" <> wrote:
    >> > Why must consumers be limited to SLRs when they want to purchase a
    >> > full-frame digital camera.

    >>
    >> "Full frame" is meaningful principally to users accustomed to 35mm
    >> format SLR systems, who want the same angle-of-view for a given lens in
    >> digital usage that they were accustomed to having with film.
    >> Point-and-shoot users, on the whole, aren't concerned about the relation
    >> of focal length to field of view, which they determine by eyeball rather
    >> by a millimeter marking.

    >
    >full frame cameras are meaningful to people who want better high iso
    >performance, lower noise and better overall image quality, versus a
    >camera with a smaller sensor.


    That's true only if you compare cameras with similar pixel count. Of
    course you have to shrink each pixel in order to fit as many pixels on a
    smaller sensor than on a larger one.
    However this has very little to do with full frame versus smaller frame
    in general.

    jue
     
    Jürgen Exner, Jun 25, 2008
    #16
  17. NimPhrey

    Keith Baird Guest

    nospam <> wrote:
    > full frame cameras are meaningful to people who want better high iso
    > performance, lower noise and better overall image quality, versus a
    > camera with a smaller sensor.


    Such users simply want a "bigger" sensor, not necessarily a "full"
    sensor. "Full" strictly means 24mm x 36mm. If someone wants an even
    larger sensor area, or a different aspect ratio, then "full frame" is
    not enough.
     
    Keith Baird, Jun 25, 2008
    #17
  18. * Alfred Molon <>:
    > In article <250620080151285566%>, nospam says...


    >> > Possibly also fast phase detect AF.

    >>
    >> it's already there in current slrs.

    >
    > Not available in live view mode.


    Not avaliable in Canon/Pentax/Olympus style live view mode; available in
    Sony's A350/A300.

    - Andi
     
    Andreas Karrer, Jun 25, 2008
    #18
  19. NimPhrey

    Dev/Null Guest

    "NimPhrey" <> wrote in message
    news:2vj8k.24578$kx.36@pd7urf3no...
    > Perhaps there is a technical or economic reason. Any takers?
    >
    > Why must consumers be limited to SLRs when they want to purchase a
    > full-frame digital camera.
    >

    I can't really think of any "consumer level" full-frame dSLR. The Canon 5D
    price is really above what many consider "consumer"
     
    Dev/Null, Jun 25, 2008
    #19
  20. NimPhrey

    nospam Guest

    In article <>, Alfred
    Molon <> wrote:

    > If the camera drops the mirror, it drops out of the live view mode.


    that's true but it's only down long enough to focus, and then it goes
    back up.
     
    nospam, Jun 25, 2008
    #20
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