Fujifilm photo papers

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Alfred Molon, Jan 20, 2005.

  1. Alfred Molon

    Alfred Molon Guest

    I was told that Fujifilm Professional glossy and matte are better papers
    than Fuji Crystal Archive, which is a standard paper of the "entry
    level" class. Is this true ?

    The lab is using a Fuji Lightjet 500 printer and guarantees a lifespan
    of 70 years for the colours. Is this realistic ?
    --

    Alfred Molon
    ------------------------------
    Olympus 4040, 5050, 5060, 7070, 8080, E300 forum at
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MyOlympus/
    Olympus 8080 resource - http://myolympus.org/8080/
     
    Alfred Molon, Jan 20, 2005
    #1
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  2. "Alfred Molon" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    SNIP
    > The lab is using a Fuji Lightjet 500 printer and guarantees
    > a lifespan of 70 years for the colours. Is this realistic ?


    The Cymbolic Lightjets are not Fuji printers, AFAIK the brand is owned
    by OCE.
    It prints on photochemical paper, so depending on paper and
    processing, and viewing/keeping conditions, the print's lifespan is
    hard to nail exactly. Besides the deterioration is gradual, so where
    one draws the line is also arbitrary. So let's say it has similar
    keeping characteristics as all photochemical prints.

    Bart
     
    Bart van der Wolf, Jan 20, 2005
    #2
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  3. Alfred Molon

    Alfred Molon Guest

    In article <41ef977c$0$6203$4all.nl>, Bart van der Wolf
    says...
    >
    > > The lab is using a Fuji Lightjet 500 printer and guarantees
    > > a lifespan of 70 years for the colours. Is this realistic ?

    >
    > The Cymbolic Lightjets are not Fuji printers, AFAIK the brand is owned
    > by OCE.
    > It prints on photochemical paper, so depending on paper and
    > processing, and viewing/keeping conditions, the print's lifespan is
    > hard to nail exactly. Besides the deterioration is gradual, so where
    > one draws the line is also arbitrary. So let's say it has similar
    > keeping characteristics as all photochemical prints.


    I thought the Lightjet 500 was made by Fuji.
    --

    Alfred Molon
    ------------------------------
    Olympus 4040, 5050, 5060, 7070, 8080, E300 forum at
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MyOlympus/
    Olympus 8080 resource - http://myolympus.org/8080/
     
    Alfred Molon, Jan 20, 2005
    #3
  4. Alfred Molon

    Bill Guest

    >I was told that Fujifilm Professional glossy and matte are better
    papers
    >than Fuji Crystal Archive, which is a standard paper of the "entry
    >level" class. Is this true ?


    Most of the pros using the high end labs like Calypso and West Coast
    Imaging use the Crystal Archive paper, which comes in matte, glossy and
    super-gloss, so perhaps these are the same papers?


    >The lab is using a Fuji Lightjet 500 printer ...


    It's not a Fuji printer, as Bart pointed out it's made by Cymbolic
    Sciences.

    > and guarantees a lifespan
    > of 70 years for the colours. Is this realistic ?


    They don't "guarantee" anything, it's just an estimate based on
    accelerated testing results ... when Wilhelm first tested Fuji Crystal
    Archive with the laser printers the initial print life estimate to HIS
    standards was 74 years. This was several years ago ... subsequent and
    on-going tests caused him to drop this number to 40 years, though for
    obvious reasons many labs still give out the old number. You should
    read the caveats on his site to see what this means but basically 40
    years is very good for traditional prints (he rated Ilfochromes at 29
    years, most of the Kodak Type-C and Ektacolor processes around 18-22
    years) but the better pigment inkjet printers are now rated about twice
    the FCA papers now. I've compared the various LightJet papers to the
    best Epson 9600 papers (same image from the same lab) and the LJ images
    look slightly better to me, but only slightly. Best thing you can do
    is test them yourself, some of the better pro labs offer inexpensive
    (or free if they think you're a potential customer) sample packs.
    Nothing like comparing side-by-side to see which "look" you prefer.
    Bill
     
    Bill, Jan 20, 2005
    #4
  5. Alfred Molon

    Alfred Molon Guest

    In article <>, Bill
    says...
    > >I was told that Fujifilm Professional glossy and matte are better

    > papers
    > >than Fuji Crystal Archive, which is a standard paper of the "entry
    > >level" class. Is this true ?

    >
    > Most of the pros using the high end labs like Calypso and West Coast
    > Imaging use the Crystal Archive paper, which comes in matte, glossy and
    > super-gloss, so perhaps these are the same papers?


    Not according to what they told me. I asked if they were using Fuji
    Crystal Archive Professional glossy and matte. They replied that the
    paper they use is Fujifilm Professional glossy and matte and that
    Crystal Archive is "a standard paper of the entry level class".

    By the way, they (www.fotokasten.de) use the eciRGB colour space. Never
    heard about this one.
    --

    Alfred Molon
    ------------------------------
    Olympus 4040, 5050, 5060, 7070, 8080, E300 forum at
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MyOlympus/
    Olympus 8080 resource - http://myolympus.org/8080/
     
    Alfred Molon, Jan 20, 2005
    #5
  6. Alfred Molon

    Bill Hilton Guest

    >> Most of the pros using the high end labs like Calypso and West Coast
    >> Imaging use the Crystal Archive paper, which comes in matte, glossy

    and
    >> super-gloss, so perhaps these are the same papers?


    > Alfred replied ...
    >
    >Not according to what they told me. I asked if they were using Fuji
    >Crystal Archive Professional glossy and matte. They replied that the
    >paper they use is Fujifilm Professional glossy and matte and that
    >Crystal Archive is "a standard paper of the entry level class".


    Well, they should know what they're using I guess ... here are links to
    two of the best USA labs, the ones the high end pros like Dykinga and
    RG Ketchum and Galen Rowell's gallery use for their prints, where they
    say they use Crystal Archive papers from Fuji ...
    http://www.calypsoinc.com/ then 'Lightjet prints' then 'Professional'
    to see a list of the papers they use, with a "Fujicolor Crystal Archive
    Paper' logo ... they say it's "Fuji Crystal Archive-Type" material.

    Or this lab, which uses a different laser printer (Chromira) but the
    same papers ...
    http://www.westcoastimaging.com/wci/page/services/colorprint/colormain.htm
    where WCI mentions printing with Fuji Crystal Archive ... or see the
    second Q on this FAQ ...
    http://www.westcoastimaging.com/wci/page/info/FAQ/faqchromira.html

    > By the way, they (www.fotokasten.de) use the eciRGB colour space.
    > Never heard about this one.


    Maybe it's not a color space but a printer profile? Most likely they
    profile their printer with the specific paper they're using and create
    a custom profile. At both the labs mentioned above you can download
    their profiles and soft-proof to them, and they also give you a
    discount if you do all the prep work, including converting your file to
    their profile so they just dump it in the printer.

    The WCI guys are good about answering questions, maybe ask them if they
    are familiar with "Fujifilm Professional glossy and matte" paper (and
    ask if they are using "a standard paper of the entry level class" :)
    and if it's different than what they call Crystal Archive. I would
    guess it is the same paper but I'm often wrong ...

    Bill
     
    Bill Hilton, Jan 21, 2005
    #6
  7. Alfred Molon

    Bill Hilton Guest

    >> Alfred wrote
    >>
    >> By the way, they (www.fotokasten.de) use the eciRGB colour space.
    >> Never heard about this one.


    >From: "Bill Hilton"
    >
    >Maybe it's not a color space but a printer profile?


    Alfred, I Googled 'eci RGB' and you are right, it's a working space and not, as
    I guessed, a printer profile. "ECI" stands for "European Colour Initiative"
    .... this link has a lot of interesting (to a color geek anyway) data on the
    spec ... http://www.eci.org/eci/en/044_working_colour_spaces.php

    I downloaded the profile and ran it thru Color Think ... it's a bit wider gamut
    than AdobeRGB in the reds and tighter (smaller gamut) in the blues. It's also
    much wider than the Calypso LightJet 5000 Glossy profile. Interesting.

    Bill
     
    Bill Hilton, Jan 21, 2005
    #7
  8. Alfred Molon

    Alfred Molon Guest

    In article <>, Bill Hilton
    says...

    > Alfred, I Googled 'eci RGB' and you are right, it's a working space and not, as
    > I guessed, a printer profile. "ECI" stands for "European Colour Initiative"
    > ... this link has a lot of interesting (to a color geek anyway) data on the
    > spec ... http://www.eci.org/eci/en/044_working_colour_spaces.php
    >
    > I downloaded the profile and ran it thru Color Think ... it's a bit wider gamut
    > than AdobeRGB in the reds and tighter (smaller gamut) in the blues. It's also
    > much wider than the Calypso LightJet 5000 Glossy profile. Interesting.


    Yep, it's a colour space. The good thing about the fotokasten.de lab is
    that at least you know what colour profile they use, and thus get
    dependable results.

    By the way, couldn't it be that Crystal Archive denotes a full family of
    photo papers, ranging from entry level to professional ?

    Or perhaps here in Europe Fuji markets the papers with a different name?
    --

    Alfred Molon
    ------------------------------
    Olympus 4040, 5050, 5060, 7070, 8080, E300 forum at
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MyOlympus/
    Olympus 8080 resource - http://myolympus.org/8080/
     
    Alfred Molon, Jan 21, 2005
    #8
  9. Alfred Molon

    RSD99 Guest

    "Here in the USA" you can get (a little) additional information from the
    "Fuji Professional" site.

    http://www.fujifilm.com/JSP/fuji/epartners/proPhotoProductsPaper.jsp

    And you are correct, many international companies market their products
    with different names and trademarks for each country or region. I do not
    know specifically about Fuji, but Canon sure does!






    "Alfred Molon" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    > Yep, it's a colour space. The good thing about the fotokasten.de lab is
    > that at least you know what colour profile they use, and thus get
    > dependable results.
    >
    > By the way, couldn't it be that Crystal Archive denotes a full family of
    > photo papers, ranging from entry level to professional ?
    >
    > Or perhaps here in Europe Fuji markets the papers with a different name?
    > --
    >
    > Alfred Molon
    > ------------------------------
    > Olympus 4040, 5050, 5060, 7070, 8080, E300 forum at
    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MyOlympus/
    > Olympus 8080 resource - http://myolympus.org/8080/
     
    RSD99, Jan 21, 2005
    #9
  10. Alfred Molon

    Bill Hilton Guest

    >From: Alfred Molon
    >
    >By the way, couldn't it be that Crystal Archive denotes a full family of
    >photo papers, ranging from entry level to professional ?


    Looks that way ... on this UK site click the drop-down to see a list of
    different "Fuji Crystal Archive" papers, from what looks like an entry level
    one (perhaps what the mini-labs use) to several "Fuji Crystal Archive
    Professional" papers with different finishes (what the high end labs like
    Calypso and WCI use). There's also a listing at the bottom for what the lab
    you mention may be using, where there are two non-Crystal Archive professional
    papers listed. So far as I know Wilhelm has only tested the Crystal Archive
    papers.

    http://www.fujifilm.co.uk/technical/folder.pl?id=4 ... you can probably find
    something similar on the German site.

    >Or perhaps here in Europe Fuji markets the papers with a different name?


    Here's a Fuji German site with a press release from a year ago of a new finish
    "Fuji Crystal Archive" paper so they use that name to some extent... you can
    probably find the equivalent to the UK site given above with names for all the
    papers.

    Bill
     
    Bill Hilton, Jan 21, 2005
    #10
  11. "Bill Hilton" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >>> Alfred wrote
    >>>
    >>> By the way, they (www.fotokasten.de) use the eciRGB colour space.
    >>> Never heard about this one.

    >
    >>From: "Bill Hilton"

    SNIP

    > I downloaded the profile and ran it thru Color Think ... it's a bit
    > wider gamut
    > than AdobeRGB in the reds and tighter (smaller gamut) in the blues.
    > It's also
    > much wider than the Calypso LightJet 5000 Glossy profile.
    > Interesting.


    It is also Gamma 1.8 and has a different Whitepoint, so one should
    most definitively have a Capture device profile, and *convert to* ECI
    RGB (presumably with perceptual intent) as a working space for the lab
    to convert it to a native output space. Merely *assigning* will most
    probably not give good results.

    Bart
     
    Bart van der Wolf, Jan 21, 2005
    #11
  12. Alfred Molon

    Tom Monego Guest

    Looks like the eciRGB is a color space akin to sRGB and AdaobeRGB 1998. There
    are many color spaces expanded beyond AdobeRGB. If this is what they are using
    you need to down load the photoshop specs for this color space AND the profile
    for their printer. Every LF printer is a little different be they inkjet or
    chemical, just having the color space is OK but you need the true profile too
    if you are paying big bucks for prints.
    I am a firm believer that you get what you pay for.

    Tom

    In article <41f1851d$0$6216$4all.nl>, says...
    >
    >
    >"Bill Hilton" <> wrote in message
    >news:...
    >>>> Alfred wrote
    >>>>
    >>>> By the way, they (www.fotokasten.de) use the eciRGB colour space.
    >>>> Never heard about this one.

    >>
    >>>From: "Bill Hilton"

    >SNIP
    >
    >> I downloaded the profile and ran it thru Color Think ... it's a bit
    >> wider gamut
    >> than AdobeRGB in the reds and tighter (smaller gamut) in the blues.
    >> It's also
    >> much wider than the Calypso LightJet 5000 Glossy profile.
    >> Interesting.

    >
    >It is also Gamma 1.8 and has a different Whitepoint, so one should
    >most definitively have a Capture device profile, and *convert to* ECI
    >RGB (presumably with perceptual intent) as a working space for the lab
    >to convert it to a native output space. Merely *assigning* will most
    >probably not give good results.
    >
    >Bart
    >
     
    Tom Monego, Jan 22, 2005
    #12
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