Friends Don’t Let Friends Do IE6

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Feb 5, 2010.

  1. Here’s how to help the stubborn ones:
    <http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2010/02/-want-to-get-someone.ars>.
     
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Feb 5, 2010
    #1
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  2. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Sweetpea Guest

    Re: Friends Don’t Let Friends Do IE6

    On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 12:24:57 +1300, Mutley wrote:

    > Lawrence D'Oliveiro <_zealand> wrote:
    >
    >>HereÂ’s how to help the stubborn ones:
    >><http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2010/02/-want-to-get-someone.ars>.

    >
    > How dangerous is IE 6 if it is not used but just came installed with
    > Win XP?? Now one here uses IE6 just Firefox , Chrome and Opera..


    At work I use IE6 to display an application that was deployed during the time that IE6 was the Microsoft
    browser.

    For all Internet browsing, however, I use Firefox.

    My colleague upgraded her browser to IE7, and now complains how this web application no longer
    works for her in all respects like it used to.

    My thinking was, that it is better to use a browser that the application was tested on, than to upgrade it
    and run the risk of the application not working as required.

    My thinking is that it is also better to use versions of applications that your clients are using so that you
    can be reasonably confident that things will display for them in the same way they display for you.


    --
    "Filtering the Internet is like trying to boil the ocean"
     
    Sweetpea, Feb 5, 2010
    #2
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  3. Re: Friends DonÂ’t Let Friends Do IE6

    In message <>, Sweetpea wrote:

    > My thinking was, that it is better to use a browser that the application
    > was tested on, than to upgrade it and run the risk of the application not
    > working as required.


    “Any IT professional who is still allowing IE6 to be used in a corporate
    setting is guilty of malpractice.â€
    -- <http://blogs.zdnet.com/Bott/?p=1645>
     
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Feb 6, 2010
    #3
  4. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Sweetpea Guest

    Re: Friends Don’t Let Friends Do IE6

    On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 18:43:51 +1300, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

    > In message <>, Sweetpea wrote:
    >
    >> My thinking was, that it is better to use a browser that the
    >> application was tested on, than to upgrade it and run the risk of the
    >> application not working as required.

    >
    > “Any IT professional who is still allowing IE6 to be used in a corporate
    > setting is guilty of malpractice.â€


    This particular application is an internal application (ie It is hosted on servers within the company). I do
    _not_ use MSIE _any_ other purpose. The computer is fully patched within hours of the patches being
    released.

    It was released by CA in 2003. It is a POS and has all sorts of behaviour quirks that only seem to not
    show up on MS Windows when using MSIE6. In this particular case I think a true IT professional would
    require that all persons who use this application should stay using MSIE6 to access this application
    until it is upgraded (whenever that might be), and should use any other browser to access the WWW.


    --
    "Filtering the Internet is like trying to boil the ocean"
     
    Sweetpea, Feb 6, 2010
    #4
  5. Re: Friends Don't Let Friends Do IE6

    On Feb 8, 9:28 am, "geoff" <> wrote:
    > Maybe they need to maintain , update, or replace the application ?


    You've clearly never worked in corporate IT.
     
    Hamish Campbell, Feb 7, 2010
    #5
  6. Re: Friends Don't Let Friends Do IE6

    In message
    <>, Hamish
    Campbell wrote:

    > On Feb 8, 9:28 am, "geoff" <> wrote:
    >
    >> Maybe they need to maintain , update, or replace the application ?

    >
    > You've clearly never worked in corporate IT.


    It’s a perfectly reasonable question, though. All this talk of “private
    enterprise†and “free-market competition†and “survival of the fittestâ€, yet
    it turns out that once corporations reach a certain size, they tend to
    ossify and remain stuck with the way they already do things.

    IT is a strategic asset. It’s a core part of what makes your company
    competitive. If you don’t keep it fresh, then you leave the way open to
    younger, hungrier upstarts to adopt new ways of doing things and come into
    your market and eat your lunch.
     
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Feb 8, 2010
    #6
  7. Re: Friends Don't Let Friends Do IE6

    On Feb 8, 1:35 pm, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <l...@geek-
    central.gen.new_zealand> wrote:
    > >> Maybe they need to maintain , update, or replace the application ?

    >
    > > You've clearly never worked in corporate IT.

    >
    > It’s a perfectly reasonable question, though.


    It is. But when the IT guy asks corporate office that question the
    answer is not what you and I would expect.

    > IT is a strategic asset. It’s a core part of what makes your company
    > competitive. If you don’t keep it fresh, then you leave the way open to
    > younger, hungrier upstarts to adopt new ways of doing things and come into
    > your market and eat your lunch.


    I agree wholeheartedly. However your CIO probably reads 'keeping it
    fresh' as 'disruptively reorganizing'. What they fail to recognize is
    that either you have a culture of constant and positive change, or a
    culture of occasional disastrous change. Option 2 is generally easier
    for executives on limited term contracts. I've been fortunate to avoid
    those sorts of employers, but I have some friends who have the joy.
     
    Hamish Campbell, Feb 8, 2010
    #7
  8. Re: Friends Don't Let Friends Do IE6

    In message
    <>, Hamish
    Campbell wrote:

    > However your CIO probably reads 'keeping it
    > fresh' as 'disruptively reorganizing'. What they fail to recognize is
    > that either you have a culture of constant and positive change, or a
    > culture of occasional disastrous change.


    And there’s another factor: maybe you went through a radical change a few
    years ago to put in some new product, which you’ve now discovered is an
    orphan; the vendor has gone out of business, or has been bought out by
    another company. Or they just don’t want to support the version/product
    you’re running, they want you to spend big bucks to “upgrade†to a new
    version/product. Basically, you’re now stuck. The system may still work, but
    it has no future, and upgrading any part could easily break it.

    I think Open Source is the best shot we’ve come up with to avoid this sort
    of situation. As long as you have the source code, you can pay somebody to
    maintain it.
     
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Feb 8, 2010
    #8
  9. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Enkidu Guest

    Re: Friends Don't Let Friends Do IE6

    geoff wrote:
    > Sweetpea wrote:
    >> On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 18:43:51 +1300, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >>
    >>> In message <>, Sweetpea wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> My thinking was, that it is better to use a browser that the
    >>>> application was tested on, than to upgrade it and run the risk of
    >>>> the application not working as required.
    >>> "Any IT professional who is still allowing IE6 to be used in a
    >>> corporate setting is guilty of malpractice."

    >> This particular application is an internal application (ie It is
    >> hosted on servers within the company). I do _not_ use MSIE _any_
    >> other purpose. The computer is fully patched within hours of the
    >> patches being released.
    >>
    >> It was released by CA in 2003. It is a POS and has all sorts of
    >> behaviour quirks that only seem to not
    >> show up on MS Windows when using MSIE6. In this particular case I
    >> think a true IT professional would require that all persons who use
    >> this application should stay using MSIE6 to access this application
    >> until it is upgraded (whenever that might be), and should use any
    >> other browser to access the WWW.

    >
    > Maybe they need to maintain , update, or replace the application ?
    >

    Warning - you are conversing with Lennier. In his world an application
    released in 2003 never has upgrades.

    Cheers,

    Cliff

    --

    The ends justifies the means - Niccolò di Bernardo dei Machiavelli.

    The end excuses any evil - Sophocles
     
    Enkidu, Feb 8, 2010
    #9
  10. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Sweetpea Guest

    Re: Friends Don't Let Friends Do IE6

    On Mon, 08 Feb 2010 09:28:22 +1300, geoff wrote:

    > Sweetpea wrote:
    >> On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 18:43:51 +1300, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >>
    >>> In message <>, Sweetpea wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> My thinking was, that it is better to use a browser that the
    >>>> application was tested on, than to upgrade it and run the risk of the
    >>>> application not working as required.
    >>>
    >>> "Any IT professional who is still allowing IE6 to be used in a
    >>> corporate setting is guilty of malpractice."

    >>
    >> This particular application is an internal application (ie It is hosted
    >> on servers within the company). I do _not_ use MSIE _any_ other
    >> purpose. The computer is fully patched within hours of the patches
    >> being released.
    >>
    >> It was released by CA in 2003. It is a POS and has all sorts of
    >> behaviour quirks that only seem to not show up on MS Windows when using
    >> MSIE6. In this particular case I think a true IT professional would
    >> require that all persons who use this application should stay using
    >> MSIE6 to access this application until it is upgraded (whenever that
    >> might be), and should use any other browser to access the WWW.

    >
    > Maybe they need to maintain , update, or replace the application ?


    They should have moved onto R12 a coupla years ago, but finance... well... you know. The bean
    counting managers like to drag each and every drop of blood out of the stone of tools for internal use.


    --
    "Filtering the Internet is like trying to boil the ocean"
     
    Sweetpea, Feb 8, 2010
    #10
  11. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Sweetpea Guest

    Re: Friends Don't Let Friends Do IE6

    On Mon, 08 Feb 2010 09:25:55 +1300, geoff wrote:

    > Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >> Here's how to help the stubborn ones:
    >> <http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2010/02/-want-to-get-someone.ars>.

    >
    > Does anybody still use IE6 ? Why ? And who cares if they do - serve
    > them right....


    Alas, enough people still use MSIE6 to mean that some businesses still need to test websites in MSIE6
    if they wish to ensure that there is no impediment for people wishing to purchase from their website.


    --
    "Filtering the Internet is like trying to boil the ocean"
     
    Sweetpea, Feb 8, 2010
    #11
  12. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Sweetpea Guest

    Re: Friends Don't Let Friends Do IE6

    On Mon, 08 Feb 2010 19:17:18 +1300, Enkidu wrote:

    > geoff wrote:
    >> Sweetpea wrote:
    >>> On Sat, 06 Feb 2010 18:43:51 +1300, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> In message <>, Sweetpea wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> My thinking was, that it is better to use a browser that the
    >>>>> application was tested on, than to upgrade it and run the risk of
    >>>>> the application not working as required.
    >>>> "Any IT professional who is still allowing IE6 to be used in a
    >>>> corporate setting is guilty of malpractice."
    >>> This particular application is an internal application (ie It is
    >>> hosted on servers within the company). I do _not_ use MSIE _any_ other
    >>> purpose. The computer is fully patched within hours of the patches
    >>> being released.
    >>>
    >>> It was released by CA in 2003. It is a POS and has all sorts of
    >>> behaviour quirks that only seem to not show up on MS Windows when
    >>> using MSIE6. In this particular case I think a true IT professional
    >>> would require that all persons who use this application should stay
    >>> using MSIE6 to access this application until it is upgraded (whenever
    >>> that might be), and should use any other browser to access the WWW.

    >>
    >> Maybe they need to maintain , update, or replace the application ?
    >>

    > Warning - you are conversing with Lennier. In his world an application
    > released in 2003 never has upgrades.


    Excuse me??!

    This application has had two point releases and one major version release since the version that we're
    *still* using.

    The business doesn't want to purchase a new version until they must.


    --
    "Filtering the Internet is like trying to boil the ocean"
     
    Sweetpea, Feb 8, 2010
    #12
  13. Re: Friends Don't Let Friends Do IE6

    In message <>, Sweetpea wrote:

    > Alas, enough people still use MSIE6 to mean that some businesses still
    > need to test websites in MSIE6 if they wish to ensure that there is no
    > impediment for people wishing to purchase from their website.


    People who still have to use IE6 don’t seem like a very likely market for
    innovative new products.
     
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Feb 8, 2010
    #13
  14. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Sweetpea Guest

    Re: Friends Don't Let Friends Do IE6

    On Mon, 08 Feb 2010 20:33:53 +1300, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

    > In message <>, Sweetpea wrote:
    >
    >> Alas, enough people still use MSIE6 to mean that some businesses still
    >> need to test websites in MSIE6 if they wish to ensure that there is no
    >> impediment for people wishing to purchase from their website.

    >
    > People who still have to use IE6 don’t seem like a very likely market
    > for innovative new products.


    True. So, it very much depends on what your market is and what your products are, doesn't it!


    --
    "Filtering the Internet is like trying to boil the ocean"
     
    Sweetpea, Feb 8, 2010
    #14
  15. Re: Friends Don't Let Friends Do IE6

    In message <>, Sweetpea wrote:

    > On Mon, 08 Feb 2010 20:33:53 +1300, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >
    >> In message <>, Sweetpea wrote:
    >>
    >>> Alas, enough people still use MSIE6 to mean that some businesses still
    >>> need to test websites in MSIE6 if they wish to ensure that there is no
    >>> impediment for people wishing to purchase from their website.

    >>
    >> People who still have to use IE6 don’t seem like a very likely market
    >> for innovative new products.

    >
    > True. So, it very much depends on what your market is and what your
    > products are, doesn't it!


    Doesn’t seem very likely.
     
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Feb 8, 2010
    #15
  16. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Sweetpea Guest

    Re: Friends Don't Let Friends Do IE6

    On Tue, 09 Feb 2010 10:08:07 +1300, geoff wrote:

    > Sweetpea wrote:
    >> Excuse me??!
    >>
    >> This application has had two point releases and one major version
    >> release since the version that we're *still* using.
    >>
    >> The business doesn't want to purchase a new version until they must.

    >
    > "Must" is clearly a rather subjective term in this case.
    >
    >
    > geoff


    It is a financial situation. The bean counters don't want to spend money on it. And, the truth be told, the
    present application has sufficient functionality to enable us to conduct our business.

    If MS Word is sufficient to type a letter, and if all you need to do is to type letters to people within the
    company who also use MS Word, then there is no reason to upgrade to something newer and better.
    (the analogy fits)


    --
    "Filtering the Internet is like trying to boil the ocean"
     
    Sweetpea, Feb 9, 2010
    #16
  17. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Sweetpea Guest

    Re: Friends Don't Let Friends Do IE6

    On Tue, 09 Feb 2010 10:41:24 +1300, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

    > In message <>, Sweetpea wrote:
    >
    >> On Mon, 08 Feb 2010 20:33:53 +1300, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >>
    >>> In message <>, Sweetpea wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> Alas, enough people still use MSIE6 to mean that some businesses
    >>>> still need to test websites in MSIE6 if they wish to ensure that
    >>>> there is no impediment for people wishing to purchase from their
    >>>> website.
    >>>
    >>> People who still have to use IE6 don’t seem like a very likely market
    >>> for innovative new products.

    >>
    >> True. So, it very much depends on what your market is and what your
    >> products are, doesn't it!

    >
    > Doesn’t seem very likely.


    For example, there will always be a market for flour. There is nothing "innovative" or "new" about flour.
    However, there will always be people prepared to purchase flour. And, if the only place to purchase
    flour ends up being a website, then those who purchase flour will figure out how to use a browser in
    order to get to that website so that they can continue to purchase flour.

    They won't care what browser they use (much less what version). They won't care whether or not their
    computer is a Microsoft virus hive so long as they can connect to the WWW.


    --
    "Filtering the Internet is like trying to boil the ocean"
     
    Sweetpea, Feb 9, 2010
    #17
  18. Re: Friends Don't Let Friends Do IE6

    In message <>, Sweetpea wrote:

    > On Tue, 09 Feb 2010 10:41:24 +1300, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >
    >> In message <>, Sweetpea wrote:
    >>
    >>> On Mon, 08 Feb 2010 20:33:53 +1300, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> In message <>, Sweetpea wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> Alas, enough people still use MSIE6 to mean that some businesses
    >>>>> still need to test websites in MSIE6 if they wish to ensure that
    >>>>> there is no impediment for people wishing to purchase from their
    >>>>> website.
    >>>>
    >>>> People who still have to use IE6 don’t seem like a very likely market
    >>>> for innovative new products.
    >>>
    >>> True. So, it very much depends on what your market is and what your
    >>> products are, doesn't it!

    >>
    >> Doesn’t seem very likely.

    >
    > For example, there will always be a market for flour. There is nothing
    > "innovative" or "new" about flour.


    But imagine if someone doesn’t care about the freshness or staleness of the
    flour they’re buying. Do you think they will be interested in your new,
    fresh flour?
     
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Feb 9, 2010
    #18
  19. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Sweetpea Guest

    Re: Friends Don't Let Friends Do IE6

    On Tue, 09 Feb 2010 22:59:18 +1300, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

    > In message <>, Sweetpea wrote:
    >
    >> On Tue, 09 Feb 2010 10:41:24 +1300, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >>
    >>> In message <>, Sweetpea wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> On Mon, 08 Feb 2010 20:33:53 +1300, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> In message <>, Sweetpea wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> Alas, enough people still use MSIE6 to mean that some businesses
    >>>>>> still need to test websites in MSIE6 if they wish to ensure that
    >>>>>> there is no impediment for people wishing to purchase from their
    >>>>>> website.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> People who still have to use IE6 don’t seem like a very likely
    >>>>> market for innovative new products.
    >>>>
    >>>> True. So, it very much depends on what your market is and what your
    >>>> products are, doesn't it!
    >>>
    >>> Doesn’t seem very likely.

    >>
    >> For example, there will always be a market for flour. There is nothing
    >> "innovative" or "new" about flour.

    >
    > But imagine if someone doesn’t care about the freshness or staleness of
    > the flour they’re buying. Do you think they will be interested in your
    > new, fresh flour?


    You are speaking shit!


    --
    "Filtering the Internet is like trying to boil the ocean"
     
    Sweetpea, Feb 9, 2010
    #19
  20. Re: Friends Don't Let Friends Do IE6

    In message <>, Sweetpea wrote:

    > On Tue, 09 Feb 2010 22:59:18 +1300, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >
    >> In message <>, Sweetpea wrote:
    >>
    >>> On Tue, 09 Feb 2010 10:41:24 +1300, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> In message <>, Sweetpea wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> On Mon, 08 Feb 2010 20:33:53 +1300, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> In message <>, Sweetpea wrote:
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>> Alas, enough people still use MSIE6 to mean that some businesses
    >>>>>>> still need to test websites in MSIE6 if they wish to ensure that
    >>>>>>> there is no impediment for people wishing to purchase from their
    >>>>>>> website.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> People who still have to use IE6 don’t seem like a very likely
    >>>>>> market for innovative new products.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> True. So, it very much depends on what your market is and what your
    >>>>> products are, doesn't it!
    >>>>
    >>>> Doesn’t seem very likely.
    >>>
    >>> For example, there will always be a market for flour. There is nothing
    >>> "innovative" or "new" about flour.

    >>
    >> But imagine if someone doesn’t care about the freshness or staleness of
    >> the flour they’re buying. Do you think they will be interested in your
    >> new, fresh flour?

    >
    > You are speaking shit!


    Temper, temper. You were the one who brought up the flour analogy. If it’s
    shit, it’s your shit.
     
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Feb 9, 2010
    #20
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