Freezing Problem - Memory?

Discussion in 'Computer Support' started by Vincent Wonnacott, May 18, 2004.

  1. I have recently upgraded to an Asus A7N8X-E Deluxe board with an
    Athlon 3200XP proc and 1gb Corsair 400mhz mem.

    After a few weeks use, I have started to get a break down in graphics,
    resulting in my screen graphics starting to pixelate and eventually going
    like a "patch-work quilt" and eventually freezing up.

    After a few obvious checks, I decided that my graphics card may be
    braking down and so I have just bought a further one of similar
    spec, although this seems to have not cured the problem.

    I have just discovered that by removing either one of the 512mb
    sticks, the problem "seems" to go. As it can be either I guess it
    rules out a faulty stick. I have tried positioning them in slots
    that do not allow dual channel, although this does not seem to solve
    the problem, the only solution at present seems to be to run on
    512ram which seems such a waste.

    Has anyone any ideas what could be happening here and how I can
    overcome this?

    I have already flashed the BIOS update, and still not cured the
    problem. Could this be the board faulty, the memory not compatible,
    or am can I change any setting on the board to help this freezing?

    After reading some reviews, I have tried changing the memory timings to
    "aggresive" which I thought had cured the problem although it has now
    re-appeared.


    Athlon XP3200 400FSB
    Asus A7N8X-X Deluxe
    1gb Corsair DDR400
    Cyberpower 550w Power Supply
    Geforce 4 T84800 SE 128MB Card (have tried replacing this with a
    completely diff 256mb Riva card to eliminate)
    WD 7200RPM 160GB Hard drive x 2
    Windows XP - Pro

    Thanks

    Vincent
     
    Vincent Wonnacott, May 18, 2004
    #1
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  2. Vincent Wonnacott

    ICee Guest

    Vincent Wonnacott wrote:
    > I have recently upgraded to an Asus A7N8X-E Deluxe board with an
    > Athlon 3200XP proc and 1gb Corsair 400mhz mem.
    >
    > After a few weeks use, I have started to get a break down in graphics,
    > resulting in my screen graphics starting to pixelate and eventually
    > going like a "patch-work quilt" and eventually freezing up.
    >
    > After a few obvious checks, I decided that my graphics card may be
    > braking down and so I have just bought a further one of similar
    > spec, although this seems to have not cured the problem.
    >
    > I have just discovered that by removing either one of the 512mb
    > sticks, the problem "seems" to go. As it can be either I guess it
    > rules out a faulty stick. I have tried positioning them in slots
    > that do not allow dual channel, although this does not seem to solve
    > the problem, the only solution at present seems to be to run on
    > 512ram which seems such a waste.
    >
    > Has anyone any ideas what could be happening here and how I can
    > overcome this?
    >
    > I have already flashed the BIOS update, and still not cured the
    > problem. Could this be the board faulty, the memory not compatible,
    > or am can I change any setting on the board to help this freezing?
    >
    > After reading some reviews, I have tried changing the memory timings
    > to "aggresive" which I thought had cured the problem although it has
    > now re-appeared.
    >
    >
    > Athlon XP3200 400FSB
    > Asus A7N8X-X Deluxe
    > 1gb Corsair DDR400
    > Cyberpower 550w Power Supply
    > Geforce 4 T84800 SE 128MB Card (have tried replacing this with a
    > completely diff 256mb Riva card to eliminate)
    > WD 7200RPM 160GB Hard drive x 2
    > Windows XP - Pro
    >
    > Thanks
    >
    > Vincent


    Try increasing the memory voltage (Vdimm) in the BIOS to at least 2.6V.
    If you're still having the problem, increase again to a max of 2.8V. If
    the problem persists, it's probably the power supply that's at fault.
     
    ICee, May 18, 2004
    #2
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  3. Vincent Wonnacott

    ICee Guest

    ICee wrote:
    > Vincent Wonnacott wrote:
    >> I have recently upgraded to an Asus A7N8X-E Deluxe board with an
    >> Athlon 3200XP proc and 1gb Corsair 400mhz mem.
    >>
    >> After a few weeks use, I have started to get a break down in
    >> graphics, resulting in my screen graphics starting to pixelate and
    >> eventually going like a "patch-work quilt" and eventually freezing
    >> up.
    >>
    >> After a few obvious checks, I decided that my graphics card may be
    >> braking down and so I have just bought a further one of similar
    >> spec, although this seems to have not cured the problem.
    >>
    >> I have just discovered that by removing either one of the 512mb
    >> sticks, the problem "seems" to go. As it can be either I guess it
    >> rules out a faulty stick. I have tried positioning them in slots
    >> that do not allow dual channel, although this does not seem to solve
    >> the problem, the only solution at present seems to be to run on
    >> 512ram which seems such a waste.
    >>
    >> Has anyone any ideas what could be happening here and how I can
    >> overcome this?
    >>
    >> I have already flashed the BIOS update, and still not cured the
    >> problem. Could this be the board faulty, the memory not compatible,
    >> or am can I change any setting on the board to help this freezing?
    >>
    >> After reading some reviews, I have tried changing the memory timings
    >> to "aggresive" which I thought had cured the problem although it has
    >> now re-appeared.
    >>
    >>
    >> Athlon XP3200 400FSB
    >> Asus A7N8X-X Deluxe
    >> 1gb Corsair DDR400
    >> Cyberpower 550w Power Supply
    >> Geforce 4 T84800 SE 128MB Card (have tried replacing this with a
    >> completely diff 256mb Riva card to eliminate)
    >> WD 7200RPM 160GB Hard drive x 2
    >> Windows XP - Pro
    >>
    >> Thanks
    >>
    >> Vincent

    >
    > Try increasing the memory voltage (Vdimm) in the BIOS to at least
    > 2.6V. If you're still having the problem, increase again to a max of
    > 2.8V. If the problem persists, it's probably the power supply that's
    > at fault.


    Also, make sure the memory timing is set to "By SPD", or AUTO, or
    Optimal (however the BIOS labels it).
     
    ICee, May 18, 2004
    #3
  4. Icee

    I currently have the memory timings set to "aggressive" is this incorrect...

    Thanks

    Vincent

    "ICee" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > ICee wrote:
    > > Vincent Wonnacott wrote:
    > >> I have recently upgraded to an Asus A7N8X-E Deluxe board with an
    > >> Athlon 3200XP proc and 1gb Corsair 400mhz mem.
    > >>
    > >> After a few weeks use, I have started to get a break down in
    > >> graphics, resulting in my screen graphics starting to pixelate and
    > >> eventually going like a "patch-work quilt" and eventually freezing
    > >> up.
    > >>
    > >> After a few obvious checks, I decided that my graphics card may be
    > >> braking down and so I have just bought a further one of similar
    > >> spec, although this seems to have not cured the problem.
    > >>
    > >> I have just discovered that by removing either one of the 512mb
    > >> sticks, the problem "seems" to go. As it can be either I guess it
    > >> rules out a faulty stick. I have tried positioning them in slots
    > >> that do not allow dual channel, although this does not seem to solve
    > >> the problem, the only solution at present seems to be to run on
    > >> 512ram which seems such a waste.
    > >>
    > >> Has anyone any ideas what could be happening here and how I can
    > >> overcome this?
    > >>
    > >> I have already flashed the BIOS update, and still not cured the
    > >> problem. Could this be the board faulty, the memory not compatible,
    > >> or am can I change any setting on the board to help this freezing?
    > >>
    > >> After reading some reviews, I have tried changing the memory timings
    > >> to "aggresive" which I thought had cured the problem although it has
    > >> now re-appeared.
    > >>
    > >>
    > >> Athlon XP3200 400FSB
    > >> Asus A7N8X-X Deluxe
    > >> 1gb Corsair DDR400
    > >> Cyberpower 550w Power Supply
    > >> Geforce 4 T84800 SE 128MB Card (have tried replacing this with a
    > >> completely diff 256mb Riva card to eliminate)
    > >> WD 7200RPM 160GB Hard drive x 2
    > >> Windows XP - Pro
    > >>
    > >> Thanks
    > >>
    > >> Vincent

    > >
    > > Try increasing the memory voltage (Vdimm) in the BIOS to at least
    > > 2.6V. If you're still having the problem, increase again to a max of
    > > 2.8V. If the problem persists, it's probably the power supply that's
    > > at fault.

    >
    > Also, make sure the memory timing is set to "By SPD", or AUTO, or
    > Optimal (however the BIOS labels it).
    >
    >
     
    Vincent Wonnacott, May 18, 2004
    #4
  5. Vincent Wonnacott

    ICee Guest

    Vincent Wonnacott wrote:
    > Icee
    >
    > I currently have the memory timings set to "aggressive" is this
    > incorrect...
    >
    > Thanks
    >
    > Vincent


    With both sticks installed, it's best to leave it set to Optimal, or By
    SPD. Corsair memory has fast timings anyway, so aggressive is probably
    too, well, aggressive.

    > "ICee" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> ICee wrote:
    >>> Vincent Wonnacott wrote:
    >>>> I have recently upgraded to an Asus A7N8X-E Deluxe board with an
    >>>> Athlon 3200XP proc and 1gb Corsair 400mhz mem.
    >>>>
    >>>> After a few weeks use, I have started to get a break down in
    >>>> graphics, resulting in my screen graphics starting to pixelate and
    >>>> eventually going like a "patch-work quilt" and eventually freezing
    >>>> up.
    >>>>
    >>>> After a few obvious checks, I decided that my graphics card may be
    >>>> braking down and so I have just bought a further one of similar
    >>>> spec, although this seems to have not cured the problem.
    >>>>
    >>>> I have just discovered that by removing either one of the 512mb
    >>>> sticks, the problem "seems" to go. As it can be either I guess it
    >>>> rules out a faulty stick. I have tried positioning them in slots
    >>>> that do not allow dual channel, although this does not seem to
    >>>> solve the problem, the only solution at present seems to be to run
    >>>> on 512ram which seems such a waste.
    >>>>
    >>>> Has anyone any ideas what could be happening here and how I can
    >>>> overcome this?
    >>>>
    >>>> I have already flashed the BIOS update, and still not cured the
    >>>> problem. Could this be the board faulty, the memory not compatible,
    >>>> or am can I change any setting on the board to help this freezing?
    >>>>
    >>>> After reading some reviews, I have tried changing the memory
    >>>> timings to "aggresive" which I thought had cured the problem
    >>>> although it has now re-appeared.
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> Athlon XP3200 400FSB
    >>>> Asus A7N8X-X Deluxe
    >>>> 1gb Corsair DDR400
    >>>> Cyberpower 550w Power Supply
    >>>> Geforce 4 T84800 SE 128MB Card (have tried replacing this with a
    >>>> completely diff 256mb Riva card to eliminate)
    >>>> WD 7200RPM 160GB Hard drive x 2
    >>>> Windows XP - Pro
    >>>>
    >>>> Thanks
    >>>>
    >>>> Vincent
    >>>
    >>> Try increasing the memory voltage (Vdimm) in the BIOS to at least
    >>> 2.6V. If you're still having the problem, increase again to a max of
    >>> 2.8V. If the problem persists, it's probably the power supply
    >>> that's at fault.

    >>
    >> Also, make sure the memory timing is set to "By SPD", or AUTO, or
    >> Optimal (however the BIOS labels it).
     
    ICee, May 18, 2004
    #5
  6. Thanks for your time, I will try tonight and keep you posted.

    Vincent
    "ICee" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Vincent Wonnacott wrote:
    > > Icee
    > >
    > > I currently have the memory timings set to "aggressive" is this
    > > incorrect...
    > >
    > > Thanks
    > >
    > > Vincent

    >
    > With both sticks installed, it's best to leave it set to Optimal, or By
    > SPD. Corsair memory has fast timings anyway, so aggressive is probably
    > too, well, aggressive.
    >
    > > "ICee" <> wrote in message
    > > news:...
    > >> ICee wrote:
    > >>> Vincent Wonnacott wrote:
    > >>>> I have recently upgraded to an Asus A7N8X-E Deluxe board with an
    > >>>> Athlon 3200XP proc and 1gb Corsair 400mhz mem.
    > >>>>
    > >>>> After a few weeks use, I have started to get a break down in
    > >>>> graphics, resulting in my screen graphics starting to pixelate and
    > >>>> eventually going like a "patch-work quilt" and eventually freezing
    > >>>> up.
    > >>>>
    > >>>> After a few obvious checks, I decided that my graphics card may be
    > >>>> braking down and so I have just bought a further one of similar
    > >>>> spec, although this seems to have not cured the problem.
    > >>>>
    > >>>> I have just discovered that by removing either one of the 512mb
    > >>>> sticks, the problem "seems" to go. As it can be either I guess it
    > >>>> rules out a faulty stick. I have tried positioning them in slots
    > >>>> that do not allow dual channel, although this does not seem to
    > >>>> solve the problem, the only solution at present seems to be to run
    > >>>> on 512ram which seems such a waste.
    > >>>>
    > >>>> Has anyone any ideas what could be happening here and how I can
    > >>>> overcome this?
    > >>>>
    > >>>> I have already flashed the BIOS update, and still not cured the
    > >>>> problem. Could this be the board faulty, the memory not compatible,
    > >>>> or am can I change any setting on the board to help this freezing?
    > >>>>
    > >>>> After reading some reviews, I have tried changing the memory
    > >>>> timings to "aggresive" which I thought had cured the problem
    > >>>> although it has now re-appeared.
    > >>>>
    > >>>>
    > >>>> Athlon XP3200 400FSB
    > >>>> Asus A7N8X-X Deluxe
    > >>>> 1gb Corsair DDR400
    > >>>> Cyberpower 550w Power Supply
    > >>>> Geforce 4 T84800 SE 128MB Card (have tried replacing this with a
    > >>>> completely diff 256mb Riva card to eliminate)
    > >>>> WD 7200RPM 160GB Hard drive x 2
    > >>>> Windows XP - Pro
    > >>>>
    > >>>> Thanks
    > >>>>
    > >>>> Vincent
    > >>>
    > >>> Try increasing the memory voltage (Vdimm) in the BIOS to at least
    > >>> 2.6V. If you're still having the problem, increase again to a max of
    > >>> 2.8V. If the problem persists, it's probably the power supply
    > >>> that's at fault.
    > >>
    > >> Also, make sure the memory timing is set to "By SPD", or AUTO, or
    > >> Optimal (however the BIOS labels it).

    >
    >
     
    Vincent Wonnacott, May 18, 2004
    #6
  7. Thanks for your time, I will try tonight and keep you posted.

    Vincent
    "ICee" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Vincent Wonnacott wrote:
    > > Icee
    > >
    > > I currently have the memory timings set to "aggressive" is this
    > > incorrect...
    > >
    > > Thanks
    > >
    > > Vincent

    >
    > With both sticks installed, it's best to leave it set to Optimal, or By
    > SPD. Corsair memory has fast timings anyway, so aggressive is probably
    > too, well, aggressive.
    >
    > > "ICee" <> wrote in message
    > > news:...
    > >> ICee wrote:
    > >>> Vincent Wonnacott wrote:
    > >>>> I have recently upgraded to an Asus A7N8X-E Deluxe board with an
    > >>>> Athlon 3200XP proc and 1gb Corsair 400mhz mem.
    > >>>>
    > >>>> After a few weeks use, I have started to get a break down in
    > >>>> graphics, resulting in my screen graphics starting to pixelate and
    > >>>> eventually going like a "patch-work quilt" and eventually freezing
    > >>>> up.
    > >>>>
    > >>>> After a few obvious checks, I decided that my graphics card may be
    > >>>> braking down and so I have just bought a further one of similar
    > >>>> spec, although this seems to have not cured the problem.
    > >>>>
    > >>>> I have just discovered that by removing either one of the 512mb
    > >>>> sticks, the problem "seems" to go. As it can be either I guess it
    > >>>> rules out a faulty stick. I have tried positioning them in slots
    > >>>> that do not allow dual channel, although this does not seem to
    > >>>> solve the problem, the only solution at present seems to be to run
    > >>>> on 512ram which seems such a waste.
    > >>>>
    > >>>> Has anyone any ideas what could be happening here and how I can
    > >>>> overcome this?
    > >>>>
    > >>>> I have already flashed the BIOS update, and still not cured the
    > >>>> problem. Could this be the board faulty, the memory not compatible,
    > >>>> or am can I change any setting on the board to help this freezing?
    > >>>>
    > >>>> After reading some reviews, I have tried changing the memory
    > >>>> timings to "aggresive" which I thought had cured the problem
    > >>>> although it has now re-appeared.
    > >>>>
    > >>>>
    > >>>> Athlon XP3200 400FSB
    > >>>> Asus A7N8X-X Deluxe
    > >>>> 1gb Corsair DDR400
    > >>>> Cyberpower 550w Power Supply
    > >>>> Geforce 4 T84800 SE 128MB Card (have tried replacing this with a
    > >>>> completely diff 256mb Riva card to eliminate)
    > >>>> WD 7200RPM 160GB Hard drive x 2
    > >>>> Windows XP - Pro
    > >>>>
    > >>>> Thanks
    > >>>>
    > >>>> Vincent
    > >>>
    > >>> Try increasing the memory voltage (Vdimm) in the BIOS to at least
    > >>> 2.6V. If you're still having the problem, increase again to a max of
    > >>> 2.8V. If the problem persists, it's probably the power supply
    > >>> that's at fault.
    > >>
    > >> Also, make sure the memory timing is set to "By SPD", or AUTO, or
    > >> Optimal (however the BIOS labels it).

    >
    >
     
    Vincent Wonnacott, May 18, 2004
    #7
  8. Vincent Wonnacott

    ICee Guest

    Vincent Wonnacott wrote:
    > Thanks for your time, I will try tonight and keep you posted.


    Sounds good.

    > Vincent
    > "ICee" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> Vincent Wonnacott wrote:
    >>> Icee
    >>>
    >>> I currently have the memory timings set to "aggressive" is this
    >>> incorrect...
    >>>
    >>> Thanks
    >>>
    >>> Vincent

    >>
    >> With both sticks installed, it's best to leave it set to Optimal, or
    >> By SPD. Corsair memory has fast timings anyway, so aggressive is
    >> probably too, well, aggressive.
    >>
    >>> "ICee" <> wrote in message
    >>> news:...
    >>>> ICee wrote:
    >>>>> Vincent Wonnacott wrote:
    >>>>>> I have recently upgraded to an Asus A7N8X-E Deluxe board with an
    >>>>>> Athlon 3200XP proc and 1gb Corsair 400mhz mem.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> After a few weeks use, I have started to get a break down in
    >>>>>> graphics, resulting in my screen graphics starting to pixelate
    >>>>>> and eventually going like a "patch-work quilt" and eventually
    >>>>>> freezing up.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> After a few obvious checks, I decided that my graphics card may
    >>>>>> be braking down and so I have just bought a further one of
    >>>>>> similar spec, although this seems to have not cured the problem.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> I have just discovered that by removing either one of the 512mb
    >>>>>> sticks, the problem "seems" to go. As it can be either I guess it
    >>>>>> rules out a faulty stick. I have tried positioning them in slots
    >>>>>> that do not allow dual channel, although this does not seem to
    >>>>>> solve the problem, the only solution at present seems to be to
    >>>>>> run on 512ram which seems such a waste.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Has anyone any ideas what could be happening here and how I can
    >>>>>> overcome this?
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> I have already flashed the BIOS update, and still not cured the
    >>>>>> problem. Could this be the board faulty, the memory not
    >>>>>> compatible, or am can I change any setting on the board to help
    >>>>>> this freezing?
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> After reading some reviews, I have tried changing the memory
    >>>>>> timings to "aggresive" which I thought had cured the problem
    >>>>>> although it has now re-appeared.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Athlon XP3200 400FSB
    >>>>>> Asus A7N8X-X Deluxe
    >>>>>> 1gb Corsair DDR400
    >>>>>> Cyberpower 550w Power Supply
    >>>>>> Geforce 4 T84800 SE 128MB Card (have tried replacing this with a
    >>>>>> completely diff 256mb Riva card to eliminate)
    >>>>>> WD 7200RPM 160GB Hard drive x 2
    >>>>>> Windows XP - Pro
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Thanks
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Vincent
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Try increasing the memory voltage (Vdimm) in the BIOS to at least
    >>>>> 2.6V. If you're still having the problem, increase again to a max
    >>>>> of
    >>>>> 2.8V. If the problem persists, it's probably the power supply
    >>>>> that's at fault.
    >>>>
    >>>> Also, make sure the memory timing is set to "By SPD", or AUTO, or
    >>>> Optimal (however the BIOS labels it).
     
    ICee, May 18, 2004
    #8
  9. OK - I have tried adjusting the ram voltage and settings as suggested, but
    the machine still suffered the same.

    I am very hesitant there is a power supply problem as I installed a 550w due
    to the resources, it definitely seems memory linked, and the only way to
    overcome the problem is to remove either of the two Memory sticks (can be
    any one) and just run at 512mb

    Any further ideas?

    Vincent


    "Vincent Wonnacott" <> wrote in message
    news:c8c854$pe0$...
    > Thanks for your time, I will try tonight and keep you posted.
    >
    > Vincent
    > "ICee" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    > > Vincent Wonnacott wrote:
    > > > Icee
    > > >
    > > > I currently have the memory timings set to "aggressive" is this
    > > > incorrect...
    > > >
    > > > Thanks
    > > >
    > > > Vincent

    > >
    > > With both sticks installed, it's best to leave it set to Optimal, or By
    > > SPD. Corsair memory has fast timings anyway, so aggressive is probably
    > > too, well, aggressive.
    > >
    > > > "ICee" <> wrote in message
    > > > news:...
    > > >> ICee wrote:
    > > >>> Vincent Wonnacott wrote:
    > > >>>> I have recently upgraded to an Asus A7N8X-E Deluxe board with an
    > > >>>> Athlon 3200XP proc and 1gb Corsair 400mhz mem.
    > > >>>>
    > > >>>> After a few weeks use, I have started to get a break down in
    > > >>>> graphics, resulting in my screen graphics starting to pixelate and
    > > >>>> eventually going like a "patch-work quilt" and eventually freezing
    > > >>>> up.
    > > >>>>
    > > >>>> After a few obvious checks, I decided that my graphics card may be
    > > >>>> braking down and so I have just bought a further one of similar
    > > >>>> spec, although this seems to have not cured the problem.
    > > >>>>
    > > >>>> I have just discovered that by removing either one of the 512mb
    > > >>>> sticks, the problem "seems" to go. As it can be either I guess it
    > > >>>> rules out a faulty stick. I have tried positioning them in slots
    > > >>>> that do not allow dual channel, although this does not seem to
    > > >>>> solve the problem, the only solution at present seems to be to run
    > > >>>> on 512ram which seems such a waste.
    > > >>>>
    > > >>>> Has anyone any ideas what could be happening here and how I can
    > > >>>> overcome this?
    > > >>>>
    > > >>>> I have already flashed the BIOS update, and still not cured the
    > > >>>> problem. Could this be the board faulty, the memory not compatible,
    > > >>>> or am can I change any setting on the board to help this freezing?
    > > >>>>
    > > >>>> After reading some reviews, I have tried changing the memory
    > > >>>> timings to "aggresive" which I thought had cured the problem
    > > >>>> although it has now re-appeared.
    > > >>>>
    > > >>>>
    > > >>>> Athlon XP3200 400FSB
    > > >>>> Asus A7N8X-X Deluxe
    > > >>>> 1gb Corsair DDR400
    > > >>>> Cyberpower 550w Power Supply
    > > >>>> Geforce 4 T84800 SE 128MB Card (have tried replacing this with a
    > > >>>> completely diff 256mb Riva card to eliminate)
    > > >>>> WD 7200RPM 160GB Hard drive x 2
    > > >>>> Windows XP - Pro
    > > >>>>
    > > >>>> Thanks
    > > >>>>
    > > >>>> Vincent
    > > >>>
    > > >>> Try increasing the memory voltage (Vdimm) in the BIOS to at least
    > > >>> 2.6V. If you're still having the problem, increase again to a max of
    > > >>> 2.8V. If the problem persists, it's probably the power supply
    > > >>> that's at fault.
    > > >>
    > > >> Also, make sure the memory timing is set to "By SPD", or AUTO, or
    > > >> Optimal (however the BIOS labels it).

    > >
    > >

    >
    >
    >
     
    Vincent Wonnacott, May 19, 2004
    #9
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