FrankenTROLL fuds the disabled

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by Daeron, Oct 29, 2005.

  1. Daeron

    Daeron Guest

    on Oct 27, 9:29 pm Erik Funkenbusch wrote:

    > Other than the fact that there currently isn't any
    > software that supports it that has adequate ADA compliance.


    I can find *no* reference to ADA and software. Does msOffice pass any
    such criteria. If so can you produce the citation please.

    > Oh, and other than the fact that the format doesn't provide
    > all the features that a mature office application needs.


    What mature feetures would that be, clippy?

    > Oh, and other than the fact that 90% of the people out there
    > ALREADY HAVE AN OFFICE APPLICATION that they may have
    > invested significant time and resources in learning, not to
    > mention the macros, integrated solutions (third party programs
    > that use Office, such as Avery label creation for example),
    > and cost to remove the old application and install the new
    > on millions of machines.


    Open Office is free apart from cost of distribution.

    > No, anyone arguing against it MUST be suspect.
    > You're absolutely right. Nobody could POSSIBLY
    > have real and valid reasons to oppose it.


    It isn't just anyone fuddie, it's you the resident troll in chief of
    COLA.

    <snip>

    > Federal law requires that government documents be accessible
    > by people with disabilities. How do you propose that they do
    > this when there aren't any programs that support OpenDocument
    > that adequately do this?


    That would be the function of the desktop. Are you asserting that there
    are *no* facilities for people with disabilities available on Open
    Source.

    http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/ea8b9dfd9d31f9f0?hl=en&

    ref:

    Screen magnifiers ..

    Screen readers ..

    On-screen keyboards ..

    Keyboard enhancement utilities ..

    Speech recognition programs ..

    Alternative input devices ..

    http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gap/AT/at-types.html

    The GNOME Accessibility Project
    http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gap/

    "U.S. District Court Judge Patricia Seitz in Miami, Florida ruled that
    the Americans with Disabilities Act does not apply to the on-line
    services of Southwest Airlines"

    http://www.accessiblesociety.org/topics/webaccess/brief1103adawebaccess.html

    Ada Standards for Accessible Design

    http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/ada/adastd94.pdf

    --

    I find it disgusting that MS would sow the disabled community with FUD
    just to sell some more $PRODUCT.
    Daeron, Oct 29, 2005
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. On 29 Oct 2005 11:00:08 -0700, Daeron wrote:

    > on Oct 27, 9:29 pm Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
    >
    >> Other than the fact that there currently isn't any
    >> software that supports it that has adequate ADA compliance.

    >
    > I can find *no* reference to ADA and software. Does msOffice pass any
    > such criteria. If so can you produce the citation please.


    It's called Section 508. I understand you're not from the US, but as
    usual, you pretend to know what you're talking about without even a hint of
    knowledge.

    http://www.section508.gov/index.cfm?FuseAction=Content&ID=3

    "In 1998, Congress amended the Rehabilitation Act to require Federal
    agencies to make their electronic and information technology accessible to
    people with disabilities. Inaccessible technology interferes with an
    individual's ability to obtain and use information quickly and easily.
    Section 508 was enacted to eliminate barriers in information technology, to
    make available new opportunities for people with disabilities, and to
    encourage development of technologies that will help achieve these goals.
    The law applies to all Federal agencies when they develop, procure,
    maintain, or use electronic and information technology. Under Section 508
    (29 U.S.C. ¡ 794d), agencies must give disabled employees and members of
    the public access to information that is comparable to the access available
    to others. It is recommended that you review the laws and regulations
    listed below to further your understanding about Section 508 and how you
    can support implementation."

    >> Oh, and other than the fact that the format doesn't provide
    >> all the features that a mature office application needs.

    >
    > What mature feetures would that be, clippy?


    No, screen readers, brail monitors and input devices, high contrast color
    schemes, magnifiers, so called "sticky keys" which let a person with one
    hand use key modifiers, on-screen input devices, text-to-speech and speech
    to text, and a lot more. Linux and OpenOffice have some of the
    technologies needed to help the disabled, but most third party software out
    there would have to be modified to work OpenOffice, and very few (if any?)
    third party assistive technology devices work with Linux in general.

    >> Oh, and other than the fact that 90% of the people out there
    >> ALREADY HAVE AN OFFICE APPLICATION that they may have
    >> invested significant time and resources in learning, not to
    >> mention the macros, integrated solutions (third party programs
    >> that use Office, such as Avery label creation for example),
    >> and cost to remove the old application and install the new
    >> on millions of machines.

    >
    > Open Office is free apart from cost of distribution.


    I fail to see how your comment has anything to do with what I said.

    >> Federal law requires that government documents be accessible
    >> by people with disabilities. How do you propose that they do
    >> this when there aren't any programs that support OpenDocument
    >> that adequately do this?

    >
    > That would be the function of the desktop. Are you asserting that there
    > are *no* facilities for people with disabilities available on Open
    > Source.


    Not at all. That's why I used words like "adequate".

    > http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/ea8b9dfd9d31f9f0?hl=en&
    >
    > ref:
    >
    > Screen magnifiers ..
    >
    > Screen readers ..
    >
    > On-screen keyboards ..
    >
    > Keyboard enhancement utilities ..
    >
    > Speech recognition programs ..
    >
    > Alternative input devices ..
    >
    > http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gap/AT/at-types.html


    While some form of those do exist, it's not a given that the
    implementations are actually USABLE by people with disabilties. For
    example, most apps have to be specially adapted to work with some of those.

    > The GNOME Accessibility Project
    > http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gap/


    Yes, and it's getting better. Just because a project exists to work on it,
    doesn't mean its already there.

    > "U.S. District Court Judge Patricia Seitz in Miami, Florida ruled that
    > the Americans with Disabilities Act does not apply to the on-line
    > services of Southwest Airlines"
    >
    > http://www.accessiblesociety.org/topics/webaccess/brief1103adawebaccess.html


    Irrelevant. Section 508 is about GOVERNMENT documents, not private
    companies.

    > Ada Standards for Accessible Design
    >
    > http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/ada/adastd94.pdf


    That's building standards, not information standards.
    Erik Funkenbusch, Oct 29, 2005
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA1

    On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 14:24:34 -0500,
    Erik Funkenbusch <> wrote:
    > On 29 Oct 2005 11:00:08 -0700, Daeron wrote:
    >
    >> on Oct 27, 9:29 pm Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
    >>
    >>> Other than the fact that there currently isn't any
    >>> software that supports it that has adequate ADA compliance.

    >>
    >> I can find *no* reference to ADA and software. Does msOffice pass any
    >> such criteria. If so can you produce the citation please.

    >
    > It's called Section 508. I understand you're not from the US, but as
    > usual, you pretend to know what you're talking about without even a hint of
    > knowledge.
    >
    > http://www.section508.gov/index.cfm?FuseAction=Content&ID=3
    >



    Sorry Erik, that doesn't answer the question.

    The question was..

    "Does msOffice pass any such criteria. If so can you produce the
    citation please."

    Do you have an answer for that question.


    > "In 1998, Congress amended the Rehabilitation Act to require Federal
    > agencies to make their electronic and information technology accessible to
    > people with disabilities. Inaccessible technology interferes with an
    > individual's ability to obtain and use information quickly and easily.
    > Section 508 was enacted to eliminate barriers in information technology, to
    > make available new opportunities for people with disabilities, and to
    > encourage development of technologies that will help achieve these goals.
    > The law applies to all Federal agencies when they develop, procure,
    > maintain, or use electronic and information technology. Under Section 508
    > (29 U.S.C. ¡ 794d), agencies must give disabled employees and members of
    > the public access to information that is comparable to the access available
    > to others. It is recommended that you review the laws and regulations
    > listed below to further your understanding about Section 508 and how you
    > can support implementation."
    >
    >>> Oh, and other than the fact that the format doesn't provide
    >>> all the features that a mature office application needs.

    >>
    >> What mature feetures would that be, clippy?

    >
    > No, screen readers, brail monitors and input devices, high contrast color
    > schemes, magnifiers, so called "sticky keys" which let a person with one
    > hand use key modifiers, on-screen input devices, text-to-speech and speech
    > to text, and a lot more. Linux and OpenOffice have some of the
    > technologies needed to help the disabled, but most third party software out
    > there would have to be modified to work OpenOffice, and very few (if any?)
    > third party assistive technology devices work with Linux in general.
    >


    really? how many braille readers have *you* used with Ms-Windows. Bet
    I've used more with Linux...

    That stuff (screen readers, etc) is handled by the desktop/os in Linux,
    not the app. It's a far better system than building something into a
    specific app. See Gnopernicus, GOK and other projects.


    >>> Oh, and other than the fact that 90% of the people out there
    >>> ALREADY HAVE AN OFFICE APPLICATION that they may have
    >>> invested significant time and resources in learning, not to
    >>> mention the macros, integrated solutions (third party programs
    >>> that use Office, such as Avery label creation for example),
    >>> and cost to remove the old application and install the new
    >>> on millions of machines.

    >>
    >> Open Office is free apart from cost of distribution.

    >
    > I fail to see how your comment has anything to do with what I said.
    >
    >>> Federal law requires that government documents be accessible
    >>> by people with disabilities. How do you propose that they do
    >>> this when there aren't any programs that support OpenDocument
    >>> that adequately do this?

    >>
    >> That would be the function of the desktop. Are you asserting that there
    >> are *no* facilities for people with disabilities available on Open
    >> Source.

    >
    > Not at all. That's why I used words like "adequate".
    >
    >> http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.linux.advocacy/msg/ea8b9dfd9d31f9f0?hl=en&
    >>
    >> ref:
    >>
    >> Screen magnifiers ..
    >>
    >> Screen readers ..
    >>
    >> On-screen keyboards ..
    >>
    >> Keyboard enhancement utilities ..
    >>
    >> Speech recognition programs ..
    >>
    >> Alternative input devices ..
    >>
    >> http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gap/AT/at-types.html

    >
    > While some form of those do exist, it's not a given that the
    > implementations are actually USABLE by people with disabilties. For
    > example, most apps have to be specially adapted to work with some of those.
    >


    nice, general claim with no relevence to the actual discussion. Or are
    you going to claim that MS-office is *guaranteed* to be usable by all
    people, with any and all disabilities?

    Didn't think so. Yet another Erik "the strawman" bit of fud...

    >> The GNOME Accessibility Project
    >> http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gap/

    >
    > Yes, and it's getting better. Just because a project exists to work on it,
    > doesn't mean its already there.
    >
    >> "U.S. District Court Judge Patricia Seitz in Miami, Florida ruled that
    >> the Americans with Disabilities Act does not apply to the on-line
    >> services of Southwest Airlines"
    >>
    >> http://www.accessiblesociety.org/topics/webaccess/brief1103adawebaccess.html

    >
    > Irrelevant. Section 508 is about GOVERNMENT documents, not private
    > companies.



    and doesn't point out where MS-Office provides the qualifying features
    for that section.

    >
    >> Ada Standards for Accessible Design
    >>
    >> http://www.usdoj.gov/crt/ada/adastd94.pdf

    >
    > That's building standards, not information standards.





    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
    Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)

    iD8DBQFDY+8Bd90bcYOAWPYRAsipAJ4rTFizzQw4qmo5n7TD1c4aBwZPjgCdHwkk
    rKlZAQ0JX+sq8FxfJC9us38=
    =cbvZ
    -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

    --
    Jim Richardson http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock
    You know, there's a word for people who
    think that everyone is out to get them...'
    `Yes! Perceptive!' --Woody Allen
    Jim Richardson, Oct 29, 2005
    #3
  4. On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 14:52:01 -0700, Jim Richardson wrote:

    > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    > Hash: SHA1
    >
    > On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 14:24:34 -0500,
    > Erik Funkenbusch <> wrote:
    >> On 29 Oct 2005 11:00:08 -0700, Daeron wrote:
    >>
    >>> on Oct 27, 9:29 pm Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> Other than the fact that there currently isn't any
    >>>> software that supports it that has adequate ADA compliance.
    >>>
    >>> I can find *no* reference to ADA and software. Does msOffice pass any
    >>> such criteria. If so can you produce the citation please.

    >>
    >> It's called Section 508. I understand you're not from the US, but as
    >> usual, you pretend to know what you're talking about without even a hint of
    >> knowledge.
    >>
    >> http://www.section508.gov/index.cfm?FuseAction=Content&ID=3

    >
    > Sorry Erik, that doesn't answer the question.


    No, it answers the statement that he can't find any references to ADA and
    Software. I pointed him to it.

    > The question was..
    >
    > "Does msOffice pass any such criteria. If so can you produce the
    > citation please."
    >
    > Do you have an answer for that question.


    And the answer is yes. Here, read up:

    http://www.microsoft.com/enable/products/office2003/default.aspx

    >>>> Oh, and other than the fact that the format doesn't provide
    >>>> all the features that a mature office application needs.
    >>>
    >>> What mature feetures would that be, clippy?

    >>
    >> No, screen readers, brail monitors and input devices, high contrast color
    >> schemes, magnifiers, so called "sticky keys" which let a person with one
    >> hand use key modifiers, on-screen input devices, text-to-speech and speech
    >> to text, and a lot more. Linux and OpenOffice have some of the
    >> technologies needed to help the disabled, but most third party software out
    >> there would have to be modified to work OpenOffice, and very few (if any?)
    >> third party assistive technology devices work with Linux in general.

    >
    > really? how many braille readers have *you* used with Ms-Windows. Bet
    > I've used more with Linux...
    >
    > That stuff (screen readers, etc) is handled by the desktop/os in Linux,
    > not the app. It's a far better system than building something into a
    > specific app. See Gnopernicus, GOK and other projects.


    These apps only provide part of the solution. For example, Gnopernicus
    doesn't pvide sticky keys, or alternative input. GOK provides on-screen
    input but doesn't help with, for example, eye-scanners that use blinking
    and eye movement to move a mouse selection around (see
    http://www.eyegaze.com/indexdis.htm for an example)
    Erik Funkenbusch, Oct 29, 2005
    #4
  5. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA1

    On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 17:45:07 -0500,
    Erik Funkenbusch <> wrote:
    > On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 14:52:01 -0700, Jim Richardson wrote:
    >
    >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    >> Hash: SHA1
    >>
    >> On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 14:24:34 -0500,
    >> Erik Funkenbusch <> wrote:
    >>> On 29 Oct 2005 11:00:08 -0700, Daeron wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> on Oct 27, 9:29 pm Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> Other than the fact that there currently isn't any
    >>>>> software that supports it that has adequate ADA compliance.
    >>>>
    >>>> I can find *no* reference to ADA and software. Does msOffice pass any
    >>>> such criteria. If so can you produce the citation please.
    >>>
    >>> It's called Section 508. I understand you're not from the US, but as
    >>> usual, you pretend to know what you're talking about without even a hint of
    >>> knowledge.
    >>>
    >>> http://www.section508.gov/index.cfm?FuseAction=Content&ID=3

    >>
    >> Sorry Erik, that doesn't answer the question.

    >
    > No, it answers the statement that he can't find any references to ADA and
    > Software. I pointed him to it.
    >
    >> The question was..
    >>
    >> "Does msOffice pass any such criteria. If so can you produce the
    >> citation please."
    >>
    >> Do you have an answer for that question.

    >
    > And the answer is yes. Here, read up:
    >
    > http://www.microsoft.com/enable/products/office2003/default.aspx
    >


    Nope, no listing there for passing the section of code you mentioned.
    Just a list of features. Do they pass the criteria? Where does it say
    that?


    >>>>> Oh, and other than the fact that the format doesn't provide
    >>>>> all the features that a mature office application needs.
    >>>>
    >>>> What mature feetures would that be, clippy?
    >>>
    >>> No, screen readers, brail monitors and input devices, high contrast color
    >>> schemes, magnifiers, so called "sticky keys" which let a person with one
    >>> hand use key modifiers, on-screen input devices, text-to-speech and speech
    >>> to text, and a lot more. Linux and OpenOffice have some of the
    >>> technologies needed to help the disabled, but most third party software out
    >>> there would have to be modified to work OpenOffice, and very few (if any?)
    >>> third party assistive technology devices work with Linux in general.

    >>
    >> really? how many braille readers have *you* used with Ms-Windows. Bet
    >> I've used more with Linux...
    >>



    So no braille readers Erik?

    >> That stuff (screen readers, etc) is handled by the desktop/os in Linux,
    >> not the app. It's a far better system than building something into a
    >> specific app. See Gnopernicus, GOK and other projects.

    >
    > These apps only provide part of the solution. For example, Gnopernicus
    > doesn't pvide sticky keys, or alternative input. GOK provides on-screen
    > input but doesn't help with, for example, eye-scanners that use blinking
    > and eye movement to move a mouse selection around (see
    > http://www.eyegaze.com/indexdis.htm for an example)




    Sticky keys are built into GNOME. Hold down the shift key for about 8
    seconds, and you'll get a requester asking if you want to activate
    "slow" keys. No need for OOorg to bother, the desktop handles it.

    The eyeball pointers, are simply hardware, and interface with the HID
    layer. As for the one you list above, are you *seriously* suggesting
    such a device/system to use with an office suite? Staring at each letter
    you type for 3-10sec for a 40,000 word novella! <snort>

    <http://www.faqs.org/docs/Linux-HOWTO/Accessibility-HOWTO.html>
    Has info on a lot of the stuff you mention. Especially stuff like sticky
    and slow keys, etc.

    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
    Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux)

    iD8DBQFDZC2hd90bcYOAWPYRAkeSAKDExkME/DbNhs8YkVtlNwzOH/TKKQCgvjXd
    Mb3uM4NmUM7VdMbHahQ9/PQ=
    =n7oC
    -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

    --
    Jim Richardson http://www.eskimo.com/~warlock
    Sufficiently advanced political correctness is indistinguishable from
    sarcasm
    Jim Richardson, Oct 30, 2005
    #5
  6. Daeron

    Tim Smith Guest

    In article <>,
    Erik Funkenbusch <> wrote:
    > >> Oh, and other than the fact that the format doesn't provide
    > >> all the features that a mature office application needs.

    > >
    > > What mature feetures would that be, clippy?

    >
    > No, screen readers, brail monitors and input devices, high contrast color
    > schemes, magnifiers, so called "sticky keys" which let a person with one
    > hand use key modifiers, on-screen input devices, text-to-speech and speech
    > to text, and a lot more. Linux and OpenOffice have some of the
    > technologies needed to help the disabled, but most third party software out
    > there would have to be modified to work OpenOffice, and very few (if any?)
    > third party assistive technology devices work with Linux in general.


    Wait a second...I think you've become confused. The file format for
    office documents doesn't have anything to do with screen reader support,
    brail monitors, etc..

    --
    --Tim Smith
    Tim Smith, Oct 30, 2005
    #6
  7. On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 16:46:48 GMT, Tim Smith wrote:

    > In article <>,
    > Erik Funkenbusch <> wrote:
    >>>> Oh, and other than the fact that the format doesn't provide
    >>>> all the features that a mature office application needs.
    >>>
    >>> What mature feetures would that be, clippy?

    >>
    >> No, screen readers, brail monitors and input devices, high contrast color
    >> schemes, magnifiers, so called "sticky keys" which let a person with one
    >> hand use key modifiers, on-screen input devices, text-to-speech and speech
    >> to text, and a lot more. Linux and OpenOffice have some of the
    >> technologies needed to help the disabled, but most third party software out
    >> there would have to be modified to work OpenOffice, and very few (if any?)
    >> third party assistive technology devices work with Linux in general.

    >
    > Wait a second...I think you've become confused. The file format for
    > office documents doesn't have anything to do with screen reader support,
    > brail monitors, etc..


    Of course it doesn't, and I never said it did. In fact, I said over and
    over again it was about the software that reads the file format.
    Erik Funkenbusch, Oct 30, 2005
    #7
  8. In article <>, Erik Funkenbusch <> wrote:
    >On 29 Oct 2005 11:00:08 -0700, Daeron wrote:
    >
    >> on Oct 27, 9:29 pm Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
    >>
    >>> Other than the fact that there currently isn't any
    >>> software that supports it that has adequate ADA compliance.

    >>
    >> I can find *no* reference to ADA and software. Does msOffice pass any
    >> such criteria. If so can you produce the citation please.

    >
    >It's called Section 508. I understand you're not from the US, but as
    >usual, you pretend to know what you're talking about without even a hint of
    >knowledge.


    So why is your blather relevant outside the USA then ?
    Oh right ... it's not. Thank you for playing :)

    Bruce

    ----------------------------------------
    I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are the good
    people and the bad people. You're wrong, of course. There are, always and
    only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides.

    Lord Vetinari in Guards ! Guards ! - Terry Pratchett

    Caution ===== followups may have been changed to relevant groups
    (if there were any)
    Bruce Sinclair, Oct 31, 2005
    #8
    1. Advertising

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

It takes just 2 minutes to sign up (and it's free!). Just click the sign up button to choose a username and then you can ask your own questions on the forum.
Similar Threads
  1. =?Utf-8?B?Q2F0aA==?=

    After XP SP2, Linksys wireless "unable to connect", disabled WZC

    =?Utf-8?B?Q2F0aA==?=, Sep 29, 2004, in forum: Wireless Networking
    Replies:
    1
    Views:
    6,396
    Brandy Griffin [MSFT]
    Oct 1, 2004
  2. Alex
    Replies:
    1
    Views:
    998
    Jerry Peterson[MSFT]
    Nov 3, 2004
  3. Patrick Page

    Disabled Working Wi-Fi?

    Patrick Page, Jan 11, 2005, in forum: Wireless Networking
    Replies:
    2
    Views:
    768
    Patrick Page
    Jan 12, 2005
  4. Michel S.
    Replies:
    9
    Views:
    650
    rupert
    Jun 7, 2005
  5. Microsoft

    Connecting to disabled network

    Microsoft, Jun 7, 2005, in forum: Wireless Networking
    Replies:
    7
    Views:
    4,706
Loading...

Share This Page