Flexplay Disposable DVD on Amazon.

Discussion in 'DVD Video' started by One-Shot Scot, Oct 23, 2004.

  1. DIVX is back, complete with all of the original lies and half-truths. As
    we all know, a time-bomb DVD format requires exclusive titles in order
    to thrive.

    Flexplay has just introduced its first exclusive DVD title, _Noel_.

    Amazon is the premier Flexplay whore.

    In an embarrassingly-transparent attempt to lure in suckers, Amazon has
    loaded its Flexplay web page with false information and lying
    "testimonials" from Flexplay shills who are posing as satisfied
    customers in an attempt to dupe bystanders into participating in this
    swindle:

    What Is A Flexplay DVD?
    Flexplay is a new kind of DVD that offers the watch-anytime,
    take-anywhere convenience of a DVD you buy, at a price comparable to a
    DVD rental--without the hassles of returns or late fees. Flexplay DVDs
    work in all standard DVD players, with the same picture quality,
    surround sound, and other features of a regular DVD. There is no special
    setup or configuration required! Flexplay DVDs are "activated" when you
    open the vacuum-sealed package (inside the yellow-topped Flexplay
    sleeve). Once the package is opened, you have 48 hours to watch your
    DVD--as many times as you choose! Unopened Flexplay DVDs stay fresh in
    the package for about a year. So you decide when to watch.

    How Does Flexplay Work?
    Flexplay DVDs are just like regular DVDs - but with a special chemical
    inside, and a special kind of plastic that gives the disc its red color.
    Removing the Flexplay DVD from its sealed package exposes the disc to
    air, triggering a precise chemical reaction. After 48 hours the disc
    turns from red to black, and the Flexplay DVD is no longer playable.
    Flexplay DVDs are non-toxic, environmentally friendly and can be
    recycled like any other DVD. (Recycling information is available at
    flexplay.com.) And with over 1 million units already distributed,
    Flexplay DVDs are field-proven. It's the new way to enjoy your favorite
    entertainment--on your schedule!

    Here are the disgustingly-obvious SHILL POSTS from the website:

    "I love this concept of Flexplay. It is brillant! I love that I will
    have no late fees!"

    *** *** ***

    "I LOVE THIS CONCEPT!!!! I hope this concept really takes off because
    it's so convenient. No more going to the video store or having to worry
    about getting movies back on time. All I have to do is go to my mailbox,
    take the DVD out of the packaging, enjoy the movie and then toss it when
    I'm done. You can't beat it.

    *** *** ***

    "Flexplay is my new favorite invention!!! I can spend the same amount of
    money and watch it whenever i want! There is no pressure like renting a
    video and having 1 night to watch it!!"

    *** *** ***

    "I do not know anything about this Flexplay technology, but it sounds
    cool. I have already ordered my copy and can't wait 'til they start
    shipping so I can watch it again."

    *** *** ***

    "The concept is genius. It beats renting a movie, which requires having
    to get off the couch and go to the video store only to find they don't
    have a copy. Plus, if you're like me, you return videos so late that you
    could have bought three copies of it with the late charges you owe. When
    you're done, you just toss it in the trash, or if you like arts and
    crafts and recycling like myself, you can make really cool mobiles to
    hang above your bed."

    *** *** ***

    "I have seen the Flexplay technology in Disney's ez-D releases, and it
    is the coolest thing! You will totally love it. You can buy the
    distinctive red DVD anywhere, and open the package and watch the movie
    whenever you feel like, even at 1am instead of dumb informercials and
    reruns. And you never have to worry about returning it, as 48 hours
    later the DVD turns into a black coaster. I plan to buy several as
    stocking stuffers. Much less hassle than giving someone a Blockbuster
    rental coupon, not to mention the coolness factor."

    *** *** ***

    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/dvd/B00068RELO/glance/104-2419862-1479124
     
    One-Shot Scot, Oct 23, 2004
    #1
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  2. One-Shot Scot

    Jay G. Guest

    On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 07:19:10 -0700, One-Shot Scot wrote:

    > DIVX is back, complete with all of the original lies and half-truths. As
    > we all know, a time-bomb DVD format requires exclusive titles in order
    > to thrive.
    >
    > Flexplay has just introduced its first exclusive DVD title, _Noel_.
    >
    > Amazon is the premier Flexplay whore.
    >
    > In an embarrassingly-transparent attempt to lure in suckers, Amazon has
    > loaded its Flexplay web page with false information and lying
    > "testimonials" from Flexplay shills who are posing as satisfied
    > customers in an attempt to dupe bystanders into participating in this
    > swindle:
    >
    > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/dvd/B00068RELO/glance/104-2419862-1479124


    With names like "Flexplay Fanatic" it's clear some of the reviewers are
    shills. Also, none of the positive reviewers have reviewed anything other
    than this disc on Amazon. Then again, neither have any of the negative
    reviewers.

    I don't think Amazon is to blame for the fake reviews though. Most likely
    they just put up the item with the press copy they got from the company.
    I'm guessing employees of Flexplay itself are behind the shill reviews.
    The most Amazon can be blamed for is agreeing to sell this crap, but then
    they sell a lot of crap I'd never buy.

    -Jay
     
    Jay G., Oct 23, 2004
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. One-Shot Scot

    Rich Clark Guest

    "One-Shot Scot" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >DIVX is back, complete with all of the original lies and half-truths. As
    >we all know, a time-bomb DVD format requires exclusive titles in order
    >to thrive.


    What was objectionable about DIVX was:

    1. You had to buy a special player and maintain phone-line connectivity;
    2. The company was trying to sign up studios to release their titles on DIVX
    instead of on standard DVD, or at least to delay the standard release to
    create DIVX exlusivity;
    3. DIVX-exclusive titles were generally pan-and-scan, with few or no
    supplemental features.

    To date, I see no indication that anything like the above will be true of
    Flexplay. If it is, then of course we can brand it EEVILL and start a
    crusade.

    RichC
     
    Rich Clark, Oct 23, 2004
    #3
  4. Jay G. wrote:

    >>In an embarrassingly-transparent attempt to lure in suckers, Amazon has
    >>loaded its Flexplay web page with false information and lying
    >>"testimonials" from Flexplay shills who are posing as satisfied
    >>customers in an attempt to dupe bystanders into participating in this
    >>swindle:
    >>
    >>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/dvd/B00068RELO/glance/104-2419862-1479124

    >
    > With names like "Flexplay Fanatic" it's clear some of the reviewers are
    > shills. Also, none of the positive reviewers have reviewed anything other
    > than this disc on Amazon. Then again, neither have any of the negative
    > reviewers.


    Nor have any of the "spontaneous" reviews ever pointed out any other
    positive aspect than "Wow, I don't have to go to the video store!"
    (And that's leaving aside the "I haven't gotten it yet, but I LOVE the
    idea!" one...)

    ....In fact, CtToI, *does* any real reviewer ever put "Wow!" in a review?

    > I don't think Amazon is to blame for the fake reviews though. Most likely
    > they just put up the item with the press copy they got from the company.
    > I'm guessing employees of Flexplay itself are behind the shill reviews.
    > The most Amazon can be blamed for is agreeing to sell this crap, but then
    > they sell a lot of crap I'd never buy.


    And to their credit, at least EZ-D had Disney/'Max trying to sell us
    movies we'd HEARD of.

    Derek Janssen (hmm, downbeat Xmas-themed indie chick-flick, or
    "Rabbit-Proof Fence" and "The Hot Chick"?...What to do, what to do)
     
    Derek Janssen, Oct 23, 2004
    #4
  5. "Rich Clark" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    > "One-Shot Scot" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    > >DIVX is back, complete with all of the original lies and half-truths.
    > >As we all know, a time-bomb DVD format requires exclusive titles
    > >in order to thrive.

    >
    > What was objectionable about DIVX was:
    >
    > 1. You had to buy a special player and maintain phone-line
    > connectivity;
    > 2. The company was trying to sign up studios to release their
    > titles on DIVX instead of on standard DVD, or at least to delay
    > the standard release to create DIVX exlusivity;
    > 3. DIVX-exclusive titles were generally pan-and-scan, with few
    > or no supplemental features.
    >
    > To date, I see no indication that anything like the above will be true
    > of Flexplay. If it is, then of course we can brand it EEVILL and start
    > a crusade.
    >
    > RichC



    "Flexplay is a new kind of DVD that offers the watch-anytime,
    take-anywhere convenience of a DVD you buy, at a price comparable to a
    DVD rental -- without the hassles of returns or late fees."

    On the surface, Flexplay seems to be designed to solve two HUGE
    problems:

    1. Having to go to a video store.

    2. Having to pay late charges.

    Over the last two years, I have rented around 15-20 DVDs a month, for an
    average cost of around $1.75 per rental. During this time, I have not
    set foot in a video store nor have I paid any late charges. Netflix has
    already solved both of the problems that Flexplay is claiming to
    address. For as little as $17.95 per month (less than the cost of 4
    Flexplay disks), online DVD rental companies allow customers to choose
    from tens of thousands of DVD titles and have 3 disks out at a time.

    Even Blockbuster and Hollywood offer low cost, in-store subscription
    plans which totally eliminate late charges. Of course, you still need to
    go to the video store. As things currently stand, the only people who
    could possibly benefit from Flexplay DVDs are those who do not have a
    permanent address. But, there aren't enough travelers and vagrants to
    support Flexplay.

    Therefore, I have to conclude that Flexplay has a sinister agenda.
    I am certain that the entire Flexplay concept is focused on exclusive
    titles and the desire of certain movie studios to keep people from
    owning their movies.

    Flexplay movies will include titles that are not available on real DVD.
    If you want to watch these exclusive Flexplay titles after the 48 hour
    time period expires, you will be forced to pay again and again and
    again.

    Just like DIVX, Flexplay was designed to destroy DVD.
     
    One-Shot Scot, Oct 24, 2004
    #5
  6. One-Shot Scot

    Rich Clark Guest

    "One-Shot Scot" <> wrote in message
    news:...

    > Therefore, I have to conclude that Flexplay has a sinister agenda.
    > I am certain that the entire Flexplay concept is focused on exclusive
    > titles and the desire of certain movie studios to keep people from
    > owning their movies.


    And if that turns out to be the case, we will indeed have an issue to deal
    with. So far, the back catalog acquired from EZ-D consists entirely of
    titles already available on standard DVD. This new title, "Noel," is an
    independent film, and its distributor's only title. Hardly a trend.

    Yes, it bears watching. But there are reasons EZ-D failed. There are reasons
    DIVX failed, for that matter. One is that these are products designed for
    people even more stupid than most people really are. Another is that their
    introductory prices are higher than the thing they're trying to replace,
    which is not usually a successful business plan.

    RichC
     
    Rich Clark, Oct 24, 2004
    #6
  7. One-Shot Scot

    Invid Fan Guest

    In article <>, One-Shot Scot
    <> wrote:

    > Over the last two years, I have rented around 15-20 DVDs a month, for an
    > average cost of around $1.75 per rental. During this time, I have not
    > set foot in a video store nor have I paid any late charges. Netflix has
    > already solved both of the problems that Flexplay is claiming to
    > address. For as little as $17.95 per month (less than the cost of 4
    > Flexplay disks), online DVD rental companies allow customers to choose
    > from tens of thousands of DVD titles and have 3 disks out at a time.
    >

    However, the Netflix model has some drawbacks. To get those 15-20
    rentals a month, you must watch the movies as soon as you get them.
    Flexplay lets you not watch it until you want to, without making you
    feel like every day it's sitting on the table is costing you a rental.

    > Just like DIVX, Flexplay was designed to destroy DVD.
    >

    Or just make money :)

    --
    Chris Mack "Refugee, total shit. That's how I've always seen us.
    'Invid Fan' Not a help, you'll admit, to agreement between us."
    -'Deal/No Deal', CHESS
     
    Invid Fan, Oct 24, 2004
    #7
  8. One-Shot Scot

    poldy Guest

    What's to prevent anyone from ripping this DVD and then burning it to
    DVDR where they could have a permanent copy?
     
    poldy, Oct 24, 2004
    #8
  9. One-Shot Scot

    Pug Fugley Guest

    Since it works just like a DVD, that means it can be ripped and burned eh?
    That's the only good thing I see about it.



    "One-Shot Scot" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    DIVX is back, complete with all of the original lies and half-truths. As
    we all know, a time-bomb DVD format requires exclusive titles in order
    to thrive.

    Flexplay has just introduced its first exclusive DVD title, _Noel_.

    Amazon is the premier Flexplay whore.

    In an embarrassingly-transparent attempt to lure in suckers, Amazon has
    loaded its Flexplay web page with false information and lying
    "testimonials" from Flexplay shills who are posing as satisfied
    customers in an attempt to dupe bystanders into participating in this
    swindle:

    What Is A Flexplay DVD?
    Flexplay is a new kind of DVD that offers the watch-anytime,
    take-anywhere convenience of a DVD you buy, at a price comparable to a
    DVD rental--without the hassles of returns or late fees. Flexplay DVDs
    work in all standard DVD players, with the same picture quality,
    surround sound, and other features of a regular DVD. There is no special
    setup or configuration required! Flexplay DVDs are "activated" when you
    open the vacuum-sealed package (inside the yellow-topped Flexplay
    sleeve). Once the package is opened, you have 48 hours to watch your
    DVD--as many times as you choose! Unopened Flexplay DVDs stay fresh in
    the package for about a year. So you decide when to watch.

    How Does Flexplay Work?
    Flexplay DVDs are just like regular DVDs - but with a special chemical
    inside, and a special kind of plastic that gives the disc its red color.
    Removing the Flexplay DVD from its sealed package exposes the disc to
    air, triggering a precise chemical reaction. After 48 hours the disc
    turns from red to black, and the Flexplay DVD is no longer playable.
    Flexplay DVDs are non-toxic, environmentally friendly and can be
    recycled like any other DVD. (Recycling information is available at
    flexplay.com.) And with over 1 million units already distributed,
    Flexplay DVDs are field-proven. It's the new way to enjoy your favorite
    entertainment--on your schedule!

    Here are the disgustingly-obvious SHILL POSTS from the website:

    "I love this concept of Flexplay. It is brillant! I love that I will
    have no late fees!"

    *** *** ***

    "I LOVE THIS CONCEPT!!!! I hope this concept really takes off because
    it's so convenient. No more going to the video store or having to worry
    about getting movies back on time. All I have to do is go to my mailbox,
    take the DVD out of the packaging, enjoy the movie and then toss it when
    I'm done. You can't beat it.

    *** *** ***

    "Flexplay is my new favorite invention!!! I can spend the same amount of
    money and watch it whenever i want! There is no pressure like renting a
    video and having 1 night to watch it!!"

    *** *** ***

    "I do not know anything about this Flexplay technology, but it sounds
    cool. I have already ordered my copy and can't wait 'til they start
    shipping so I can watch it again."

    *** *** ***

    "The concept is genius. It beats renting a movie, which requires having
    to get off the couch and go to the video store only to find they don't
    have a copy. Plus, if you're like me, you return videos so late that you
    could have bought three copies of it with the late charges you owe. When
    you're done, you just toss it in the trash, or if you like arts and
    crafts and recycling like myself, you can make really cool mobiles to
    hang above your bed."

    *** *** ***

    "I have seen the Flexplay technology in Disney's ez-D releases, and it
    is the coolest thing! You will totally love it. You can buy the
    distinctive red DVD anywhere, and open the package and watch the movie
    whenever you feel like, even at 1am instead of dumb informercials and
    reruns. And you never have to worry about returning it, as 48 hours
    later the DVD turns into a black coaster. I plan to buy several as
    stocking stuffers. Much less hassle than giving someone a Blockbuster
    rental coupon, not to mention the coolness factor."

    *** *** ***

    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/dvd/B00068RELO/glance/104-2419862-1479124
     
    Pug Fugley, Oct 24, 2004
    #9
  10. One-Shot Scot

    KublaiKhan Guest

    "One-Shot Scot" <> wrote in message news:<>...
    ental -- without the hassles of returns or late fees."
    >
    > On the surface, Flexplay seems to be designed to solve two HUGE
    > problems:
    >
    > 1. Having to go to a video store.
    >
    > 2. Having to pay late charges.
    >
    > Over the last two years, I have rented around 15-20 DVDs a month, for an
    > average cost of around $1.75 per rental. During this time, I have not
    > set foot in a video store nor have I paid any late charges. Netflix has
    > already solved both of the problems that Flexplay is claiming to
    > address. For as little as $17.95 per month (less than the cost of 4
    > Flexplay disks), online DVD rental companies allow customers to choose
    > from tens of thousands of DVD titles and have 3 disks out at a time.
    >
    > Even Blockbuster and Hollywood offer low cost, in-store subscription
    > plans which totally eliminate late charges. Of course, you still need to
    > go to the video store. As things currently stand, the only people who
    > could possibly benefit from Flexplay DVDs are those who do not have a
    > permanent address. But, there aren't enough travelers and vagrants to
    > support Flexplay.
    >
    > Therefore, I have to conclude that Flexplay has a sinister agenda.
    > I am certain that the entire Flexplay concept is focused on exclusive
    > titles and the desire of certain movie studios to keep people from
    > owning their movies.


    You're being paranoid. Flexplay discs can be dispensed by vending
    machines and at convenience stores if you really have to have a DVD.
    This works in principle although the very limited choice of titles and
    the relatively high cost work against this idea. With DVD players in
    vehicles, I can imagine people "renting" movies along the way to watch
    on the road. It's a different model altogether but it's doomed to fail
    because the market is too small and it cannot compete against
    conventional rental methods.

    > Flexplay movies will include titles that are not available on real DVD.
    > If you want to watch these exclusive Flexplay titles after the 48 hour
    > time period expires, you will be forced to pay again and again and
    > again.


    Once the disc turns black, it is unplayable and the chemical reaction
    cannot be reversed. You just have to get a new disc. So it's NOT like
    divx.

    KK
     
    KublaiKhan, Oct 24, 2004
    #10
  11. One-Shot Scot

    KublaiKhan Guest

    Invid Fan <> wrote in message news:<231020042015078275%>...
    > In article <>, One-Shot Scot
    > <> wrote:.
    > >

    > However, the Netflix model has some drawbacks. To get those 15-20
    > rentals a month, you must watch the movies as soon as you get them.
    > Flexplay lets you not watch it until you want to, without making you
    > feel like every day it's sitting on the table is costing you a rental.
    >

    Compared to the autoselfdestructing discs, which cost anywhere
    from $5 - $7, you need to rent only 4 discs a month from netflix to
    break even. The flexplay discs are playable for only 2 days once you
    remove them from their special package.
     
    KublaiKhan, Oct 24, 2004
    #11
  12. One-Shot Scot

    KublaiKhan Guest

    poldy <> wrote in message news:<>...
    > What's to prevent anyone from ripping this DVD and then burning it to
    > DVDR where they could have a permanent copy?


    Nothing. But why would you pay a premium and rent a self-destructing disc?

    KK
     
    KublaiKhan, Oct 24, 2004
    #12
  13. One-Shot Scot

    Invid Fan Guest

    In article <>, KublaiKhan
    <> wrote:

    > Invid Fan <> wrote in message
    > news:<231020042015078275%>...
    > > In article <>, One-Shot Scot
    > > <> wrote:.
    > > >

    > > However, the Netflix model has some drawbacks. To get those 15-20
    > > rentals a month, you must watch the movies as soon as you get them.
    > > Flexplay lets you not watch it until you want to, without making you
    > > feel like every day it's sitting on the table is costing you a rental.
    > >

    > Compared to the autoselfdestructing discs, which cost anywhere
    > from $5 - $7, you need to rent only 4 discs a month from netflix to
    > break even.


    I compare Netflix to local rental, knowing nothing of Flexplay. I do
    know the problems with the Netflix model, and where there's room for
    other types of services.

    > The flexplay discs are playable for only 2 days once you
    > remove them from their special package.


    So you don't remove them. Hey, it may turn out to be a shitty product,
    but it's no different then pay-per-view on cable with regard to how
    evil it may be.

    --
    Chris Mack "Refugee, total shit. That's how I've always seen us.
    'Invid Fan' Not a help, you'll admit, to agreement between us."
    -'Deal/No Deal', CHESS
     
    Invid Fan, Oct 24, 2004
    #13
  14. One-Shot Scot

    Dick Sidbury Guest

    KublaiKhan wrote:

    > poldy <> wrote in message news:<>...
    >
    >>What's to prevent anyone from ripping this DVD and then burning it to
    >>DVDR where they could have a permanent copy?

    >
    >
    > Nothing. But why would you pay a premium and rent a self-destructing disc?
    >


    Well the obvious answer is if the disk is not available in standard DVD,
    they one could buy the flexplay version and burn a copy for future use.
    Is there any info as to whether flexplay disks are dual layer?

    dick
     
    Dick Sidbury, Oct 24, 2004
    #14
  15. One-Shot Scot

    Jay G. Guest

    On Sun, 24 Oct 2004 14:27:47 -0400, Invid Fan wrote:
    > In article <>, KublaiKhan
    > <> wrote:
    >> The flexplay discs are playable for only 2 days once you
    >> remove them from their special package.

    >
    > So you don't remove them. Hey, it may turn out to be a shitty product,
    > but it's no different then pay-per-view on cable with regard to how
    > evil it may be.


    Pay-per-view doesn't leave you with a useless piece of plastic after you're
    done watching the film. Not to mention the packaging the Flexplay disc
    came in. So in terms of generating waste, Flexplay is worse.

    -Jay
     
    Jay G., Oct 24, 2004
    #15
  16. One-Shot Scot

    Jay G. Guest

    On Sun, 24 Oct 2004 15:37:48 -0400, Dick Sidbury wrote:
    > KublaiKhan wrote:
    >> But why would you pay a premium and rent a self-destructing disc?
    >>

    >
    > Well the obvious answer is if the disk is not available in standard DVD,
    > they one could buy the flexplay version and burn a copy for future use.
    > Is there any info as to whether flexplay disks are dual layer?


    According to their website they are dual layer:
    http://www.flexplay.com/how-flexplay-works.htm

    Of course, that's not much of a hindrance nowadays. The ripper could
    either recompress the video to fit on a single layer DVDR, or use the new
    double layer DVD+R discs.

    What's funny is that exclusive Flexplay titles actually *encourage*
    copying, since there is no other alternative to obtaining a permanent copy
    of the film on DVD.

    -Jay
     
    Jay G., Oct 24, 2004
    #16
  17. One-Shot Scot

    Jay G. Guest

    On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 14:09:37 -0700, Derek Janssen wrote:
    > And to their credit, at least EZ-D had Disney/'Max trying to sell us
    > movies we'd HEARD of.
    >
    > Derek Janssen (hmm, downbeat Xmas-themed indie chick-flick, or
    > "Rabbit-Proof Fence" and "The Hot Chick"?...What to do, what to do)


    For those interested in the film, a trailer is available here:
    http://www.apple.com/trailers/independent/noel.html

    -Jay
     
    Jay G., Oct 24, 2004
    #17
  18. One-Shot Scot

    Clive Savage Guest

    On Sun, 24 Oct 2004 00:18:50 GMT, poldy <> wrote:

    >What's to prevent anyone from ripping this DVD and then burning it to
    >DVDR where they could have a permanent copy?


    Hey!, thats what I was thinking..... ;-)


    Bye for now.

    Clive.
     
    Clive Savage, Oct 25, 2004
    #18
  19. Jay G. <> wrote:

    > What's funny is that exclusive Flexplay titles actually *encourage*
    > copying, since there is no other alternative to obtaining a permanent copy
    > of the film on DVD.


    Hey, nobody said movie industry executives were bright.
     
    Neill Massello, Oct 25, 2004
    #19
  20. One-Shot Scot

    Invid Fan Guest

    In article <>, Jay G.
    <> wrote:

    > On Sun, 24 Oct 2004 14:27:47 -0400, Invid Fan wrote:
    > > In article <>, KublaiKhan
    > > <> wrote:
    > >> The flexplay discs are playable for only 2 days once you
    > >> remove them from their special package.

    > >
    > > So you don't remove them. Hey, it may turn out to be a shitty product,
    > > but it's no different then pay-per-view on cable with regard to how
    > > evil it may be.

    >
    > Pay-per-view doesn't leave you with a useless piece of plastic after you're
    > done watching the film. Not to mention the packaging the Flexplay disc
    > came in. So in terms of generating waste, Flexplay is worse.
    >

    But it provides jobs for those who make that plastic :)

    --
    Chris Mack "Refugee, total shit. That's how I've always seen us.
    'Invid Fan' Not a help, you'll admit, to agreement between us."
    -'Deal/No Deal', CHESS
     
    Invid Fan, Oct 25, 2004
    #20
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