Flash Photography, how to get the best out of it?

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Ken, Dec 23, 2005.

  1. Ken

    Ken Guest

    I have a Canon digital rebel, Sunpak 5000af Zoom Flash, Tamron SP
    AF28-75, 2.8 Lens.

    How do I go about taking good indoor flash pictures this Christmas? In
    the past I've always been disappointed with how they come out. I've
    tried a variety of settings, but I guess not the correct one.

    What settings on the camera will give the best? AV, TV, Automatic White
    Balance?
     
    Ken, Dec 23, 2005
    #1
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  2. Ken

    Steve Wolfe Guest

    >I have a Canon digital rebel, Sunpak 5000af Zoom Flash, Tamron SP AF28-75,
    >2.8 Lens.
    >
    > How do I go about taking good indoor flash pictures this Christmas? In the
    > past I've always been disappointed with how they come out. I've tried a
    > variety of settings, but I guess not the correct one.
    >
    > What settings on the camera will give the best? AV, TV, Automatic White
    > Balance?


    You have a lot of questions that aren't easily answered in one message.
    I'll try some basics, but you might consider googling for more reading
    material, or visiting your library.

    The first problem with a flash is that shooting a harsh light right along
    the axis of the lens is rarely flattering - you end up with flat, washed-out
    subjects, unflattering reflections, red-eye, and harsh shadows. One way to
    both alter the direction of the light and to diffuse the light is to bounce
    the flash up at the ceiling. With just a little practice, you'll be able to
    pick an angle corresponding to ceiling height and layout with ease.

    But, don't stop there - you have a swivel head as well, so use that to
    your advantage! Try tilting and swiveling the flash so that it's actually
    pointed to the upper corner of a room behind and to the side of you - not
    only do you get even better diffusion, the directionality of the light is
    now at an angle to your subject, which will keep them from looking "flat".
    Experiment a little bit, you'll get the hang of it.

    You do lose a lot of intensity that way, so you may have to increase your
    ISO a little bit - unless it's an awfully big room or you're using fairly
    small apertures, ISO 400 is usually sufficient.

    You would think that Av mode would work the best - but in that mode, your
    camera will try to use the flash as fill, not as primary, and you can end up
    with some long shutter speeds. (The XT lets you overcome that, but not the
    DR). So, consider putting your camera into manual mode - choose 1/200th as
    the shutter speed, set your aperture (4.0 or 5.6 wouldn't be a bad choice),
    and let the E-TTL magic take care of the flash intensity. I find that I
    usually get a slightly better color balance with an external flash if the
    white balance is set to auto, not flash.

    steve
     
    Steve Wolfe, Dec 24, 2005
    #2
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  3. Ken

    Guest

    Is this Sunpak model specifically made for digital cameras?
     
    , Dec 24, 2005
    #3
  4. Ken

    John Stewart Guest

    "Steve Wolfe" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > >I have a Canon digital rebel, Sunpak 5000af Zoom Flash, Tamron SP
    > >AF28-75, 2.8 Lens.
    >>
    >> How do I go about taking good indoor flash pictures this Christmas? In
    >> the past I've always been disappointed with how they come out. I've tried
    >> a variety of settings, but I guess not the correct one.
    >>
    >> What settings on the camera will give the best? AV, TV, Automatic White
    >> Balance?

    >
    > You have a lot of questions that aren't easily answered in one message.
    > I'll try some basics, but you might consider googling for more reading
    > material, or visiting your library.
    >
    > The first problem with a flash is that shooting a harsh light right along
    > the axis of the lens is rarely flattering - you end up with flat,
    > washed-out subjects, unflattering reflections, red-eye, and harsh shadows.
    > One way to both alter the direction of the light and to diffuse the light
    > is to bounce the flash up at the ceiling. With just a little practice,
    > you'll be able to pick an angle corresponding to ceiling height and layout
    > with ease.
    >
    > But, don't stop there - you have a swivel head as well, so use that to
    > your advantage! Try tilting and swiveling the flash so that it's actually
    > pointed to the upper corner of a room behind and to the side of you - not
    > only do you get even better diffusion, the directionality of the light is
    > now at an angle to your subject, which will keep them from looking "flat".
    > Experiment a little bit, you'll get the hang of it.
    >
    > You do lose a lot of intensity that way, so you may have to increase your
    > ISO a little bit - unless it's an awfully big room or you're using fairly
    > small apertures, ISO 400 is usually sufficient.
    >
    > You would think that Av mode would work the best - but in that mode, your
    > camera will try to use the flash as fill, not as primary, and you can end
    > up with some long shutter speeds. (The XT lets you overcome that, but not
    > the DR). So, consider putting your camera into manual mode - choose
    > 1/200th as the shutter speed, set your aperture (4.0 or 5.6 wouldn't be a
    > bad choice), and let the E-TTL magic take care of the flash intensity. I
    > find that I usually get a slightly better color balance with an external
    > flash if the white balance is set to auto, not flash.
    >
    > steve
    >

    Steve,

    You wrote:

    "You would think that Av mode would work the best ... you can end up with
    some long shutter speeds. (The XT lets you overcome that..."

    Can you give us XT owners the "how to" on this? I like the fill flash
    effect in Av mode but I DO get some slow shutter speeds in low natural
    lighting (when the scene is poorly lit). What can I do with my XT to
    "overcome" this?

    John
     
    John Stewart, Dec 24, 2005
    #4
  5. Ken

    Ken Guest

    wrote:
    > Is this Sunpak model specifically made for digital cameras?
    >

    No, I originally purchased it for my Canon film camera. Are there
    specific ones for digital cameras?
     
    Ken, Dec 24, 2005
    #5
  6. Ken

    Matt Ion Guest

    Ken wrote:
    > wrote:
    >
    >> Is this Sunpak model specifically made for digital cameras?
    >>

    > No, I originally purchased it for my Canon film camera. Are there
    > specific ones for digital cameras?


    Not really. I think the question should have been whether your flash
    was a "dedicated" unit designed for your specific model of camera.

    If it's made to interact with an EOS film camera, it SHOULD work the
    same with a digital EOS. (I say, SHOULD work, for those with selective
    reading problems... there are always exceptions, particularly with
    third-party hardware).


    ---
    avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.
    Virus Database (VPS): 0551-5, 12/23/2005
    Tested on: 12/23/2005 9:22:30 PM
    avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2005 ALWIL Software.
    http://www.avast.com
     
    Matt Ion, Dec 24, 2005
    #6
  7. Ken

    Steve Wolfe Guest

    > "You would think that Av mode would work the best ... you can end up with
    > some long shutter speeds. (The XT lets you overcome that..."
    >
    > Can you give us XT owners the "how to" on this? I like the fill flash
    > effect in Av mode but I DO get some slow shutter speeds in low natural
    > lighting (when the scene is poorly lit). What can I do with my XT to
    > "overcome" this?


    In the menu, go to "custom functions", and there's one for the shutter
    sync speed in Av mode. The two options are "auto" and 1/200 - set it to
    1/200. Of course, if you do want your flash to be just fill, then that's
    probably not going to work for you unless you have an ISO/aperture that can
    properly expose the background at 1/200.

    steve
     
    Steve Wolfe, Dec 24, 2005
    #7
  8. Ken

    John Stewart Guest

    "Steve Wolfe" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >> "You would think that Av mode would work the best ... you can end up with
    >> some long shutter speeds. (The XT lets you overcome that..."
    >>
    >> Can you give us XT owners the "how to" on this? I like the fill flash
    >> effect in Av mode but I DO get some slow shutter speeds in low natural
    >> lighting (when the scene is poorly lit). What can I do with my XT to
    >> "overcome" this?

    >
    > In the menu, go to "custom functions", and there's one for the shutter
    > sync speed in Av mode. The two options are "auto" and 1/200 - set it to
    > 1/200. Of course, if you do want your flash to be just fill, then that's
    > probably not going to work for you unless you have an ISO/aperture that
    > can properly expose the background at 1/200.
    >
    > steve
    >
    >

    Great, thanks for the info. I'll play with it and see.

    John
     
    John Stewart, Dec 24, 2005
    #8
  9. Ken

    peter Guest

    "Ken" <> wrote in message
    news:OF%qf.8726$Ou3.3107@dukeread09...
    >I have a Canon digital rebel, Sunpak 5000af Zoom Flash, Tamron SP AF28-75,
    >2.8 Lens.
    >
    > How do I go about taking good indoor flash pictures this Christmas? In the
    > past I've always been disappointed with how they come out. I've tried a
    > variety of settings, but I guess not the correct one.
    >
    > What settings on the camera will give the best? AV, TV, Automatic White
    > Balance?


    Disappointed why? Please identify the problem or show us the problem. Here
    are some flash related problems I can think of.

    overexposed, or overexposed in part of the photo
    underexposed
    subject that is close to the camera is surrounded with background that is
    too dark
    red eyes
    glares and reflections
    flat look due to frontal light (most people would not complain if this is
    the only problem)
    camera shake
    incorrect white balance
    shadows too conspicous

    Each problem may require a different solution.
     
    peter, Dec 24, 2005
    #9
  10. Is your flash a dedicated one to the Canon ETTL II system? If not,
    you cannot expect it to work properly with a digital Rebel.
    Furthermore, according to what I have read on the web, if the firing
    voltage of your flash is over 6 v you are likely to damage the
    internal mechanism of the camera, and the effect is cumulative! The
    ETTL II system built into the digital Rebel uses a preflash to
    evaluate the exposure needed, and then fires the picture-taking flash.
    If your flash is not designed to be compatible with this system, you
    will not get properly exposed results. You cannot use the built in
    flash to trigger a slave flash for the same reason: the slave will
    fire on the builtin's pre flash (except possibly for one of the high
    end Canon flashes - I don't remember what I've read about this).

    This is an unfortunate extra expense that comes with the
    digital Rebel. I also have a perfectly good flash which gave
    excellent reults with a non digital Rebel and I am now buying a new
    flash compatible with the 350D.

    Bob


    On Sat, 24 Dec 2005 01:08:21 GMT, "John Stewart" <> wrote:

    >
    >"Steve Wolfe" <> wrote in message
    >news:...
    >> >I have a Canon digital rebel, Sunpak 5000af Zoom Flash, Tamron SP
    >> >AF28-75, 2.8 Lens.
    >>>
    >>> How do I go about taking good indoor flash pictures this Christmas? In
    >>> the past I've always been disappointed with how they come out. I've tried
    >>> a variety of settings, but I guess not the correct one.
    >>>
    >>> What settings on the camera will give the best? AV, TV, Automatic White
    >>> Balance?

    >>
    >> You have a lot of questions that aren't easily answered in one message.
    >> I'll try some basics, but you might consider googling for more reading
    >> material, or visiting your library.
    >>
    >> The first problem with a flash is that shooting a harsh light right along
    >> the axis of the lens is rarely flattering - you end up with flat,
    >> washed-out subjects, unflattering reflections, red-eye, and harsh shadows.
    >> One way to both alter the direction of the light and to diffuse the light
    >> is to bounce the flash up at the ceiling. With just a little practice,
    >> you'll be able to pick an angle corresponding to ceiling height and layout
    >> with ease.
    >>
    >> But, don't stop there - you have a swivel head as well, so use that to
    >> your advantage! Try tilting and swiveling the flash so that it's actually
    >> pointed to the upper corner of a room behind and to the side of you - not
    >> only do you get even better diffusion, the directionality of the light is
    >> now at an angle to your subject, which will keep them from looking "flat".
    >> Experiment a little bit, you'll get the hang of it.
    >>
    >> You do lose a lot of intensity that way, so you may have to increase your
    >> ISO a little bit - unless it's an awfully big room or you're using fairly
    >> small apertures, ISO 400 is usually sufficient.
    >>
    >> You would think that Av mode would work the best - but in that mode, your
    >> camera will try to use the flash as fill, not as primary, and you can end
    >> up with some long shutter speeds. (The XT lets you overcome that, but not
    >> the DR). So, consider putting your camera into manual mode - choose
    >> 1/200th as the shutter speed, set your aperture (4.0 or 5.6 wouldn't be a
    >> bad choice), and let the E-TTL magic take care of the flash intensity. I
    >> find that I usually get a slightly better color balance with an external
    >> flash if the white balance is set to auto, not flash.
    >>
    >> steve
    >>

    >Steve,
    >
    >You wrote:
    >
    >"You would think that Av mode would work the best ... you can end up with
    >some long shutter speeds. (The XT lets you overcome that..."
    >
    >Can you give us XT owners the "how to" on this? I like the fill flash
    >effect in Av mode but I DO get some slow shutter speeds in low natural
    >lighting (when the scene is poorly lit). What can I do with my XT to
    >"overcome" this?
    >
    >John
    >
     
    Robert M. Mazo, Dec 31, 2005
    #10
  11. Ken

    Bill Funk Guest

    On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 16:14:15 -0800, Robert M. Mazo <>
    wrote:

    >Is your flash a dedicated one to the Canon ETTL II system? If not,
    >you cannot expect it to work properly with a digital Rebel.
    >Furthermore, according to what I have read on the web, if the firing
    >voltage of your flash is over 6 v you are likely to damage the
    >internal mechanism of the camera, and the effect is cumulative! The
    >ETTL II system built into the digital Rebel uses a preflash to
    >evaluate the exposure needed, and then fires the picture-taking flash.
    >If your flash is not designed to be compatible with this system, you
    >will not get properly exposed results. You cannot use the built in
    >flash to trigger a slave flash for the same reason: the slave will
    >fire on the builtin's pre flash (except possibly for one of the high
    >end Canon flashes - I don't remember what I've read about this).
    >
    > This is an unfortunate extra expense that comes with the
    >digital Rebel. I also have a perfectly good flash which gave
    >excellent reults with a non digital Rebel and I am now buying a new
    >flash compatible with the 350D.
    >
    >Bob


    A point that will make things easier to understand:
    The Digital Rebel (300D) doesn't have ETTL II, it has ETTL.
    It's the Digital Rebel XT (350D) that has ETTL II.

    --
    Bill Funk
    Replace "g" with "a"
    funktionality.blogspot.com
     
    Bill Funk, Dec 31, 2005
    #11
  12. Ken

    Guest

    Ken wrote:
    > I have a Canon digital rebel, Sunpak 5000af Zoom Flash, Tamron SP
    > AF28-75, 2.8 Lens.
    >
    > How do I go about taking good indoor flash pictures this Christmas? In
    > the past I've always been disappointed with how they come out. I've
    > tried a variety of settings, but I guess not the correct one.
    >
    > What settings on the camera will give the best? AV, TV, Automatic White
    > Balance?


    FEC -2
    Tv
    AWB

    http://digitcamera.tripod.com/#flash
     
    , Jan 1, 2006
    #12
  13. Hi Ken

    Here's an GREAT insight into flash photography courtesy of Apogee photo
    magazine:

    Flash photography is one of the most misunderstood areas of the art.
    To many people, the flash is a mystical device that, while easy to use
    (it attaches it to your camera's hot shoe), is difficult to use
    correctly in many situations. One of the common questions in my
    classes is "Why did the background turn black?"

    If you're like most photographers, many of your flash photos come out
    fine. However, you create a significant percentage of flash photos in
    which the background appears dark or completely black. This article
    will not deal with properly illuminating the subject using either full
    or partial (fill) flash. Instead, it will provide information to
    assist you in properly illuminating an interesting background while
    using your flash on the main subject. Although one technique we'll
    cover requires that you use your camera in manual mode, the information
    presented here is designed for photographers with auto focus cameras.

    There are two primary causes for a dark background in flash
    photography: flash-background distance and the exposure mode.
    Discussing flash-background distance requires a brief summary of the
    basics of flash photography.

    In normal (ambient) light photography, the two most important controls
    determining exposure are f-stops and shutter duration. (We'll use
    the term "shutter duration" because it's more accurate than
    "shutter speed.") Technically, the shutter curtains open and close
    at the same speed no matter what the length of the exposure is. In
    flash photography, shutter duration is not relevant.

    However, shutter duration is important in one aspect. For every
    camera, there is a shutter duration that's designated as the maximum
    "flash synchronization speed." You can achieve properly exposed
    flash images by shooting at the maximum flash synchronization speed or
    any slower duration. If you shoot at a speed faster than the maximum
    flash synchronization speed, the shutter will close before the exposure
    is complete. This will result in a black band along the top of your
    image.

    On manual cameras, the maximum flash synchronization speed is a
    different color on the shutter speed dial from the other numbers. The
    maximum synchronization speed for auto focus cameras is not a
    significant issue. Auto focus cameras will not let you shoot faster
    than the maximum flash synchronization speed. There are many auto
    focus camera/flash combinations that allow you to shoot at any shutter
    duration available on your camera. This feature is most often called
    High Speed Synchronization.

    In flash photography, the two most important controls over exposure are
    f-stop and flash-subject distance. These controls combine to create
    the flash unit's Guide Number. The guide number = f-stop *
    flash-subject distance. The guide number is a relative indicator of
    the power of the flash. A flash having a guide number of 150 is more
    powerful than a flash with a guide number of 100. However, be careful
    when comparing guide numbers. Some are listed in feet; others are
    listed in meters. For proper comparison results, be sure each flash is
    listed in the same measurement and uses the same focal length lens and
    film speed. (Most guide numbers are computed at iso 100 with a 100mm
    lens.)

    The guide number can be used to ESTIMATE either the f-stop to use or
    the distance the flash will cover. Consider a pop-up flash, which
    normally has a guide number in the low forties, as an example. For
    ease of calculation, let's use forty (in feet) as the guide number.
    To determine how far the flash will extend, divide the guide number by
    the f-stop. If we use f4 with a flash having a guide number of forty,
    our flash will extend only ten feet. It's only five feet if we use
    f8 to get more depth of field. Background objects in the extra depth
    of field we desire will be underexposed due to the short distance the
    flash covers. Obviously, your pop-up flash is not very powerful, so
    don't use it when you're seated in the third deck of a baseball
    stadium trying to take a photo of the batter.

    Dividing the guide number by the flash-subject distance will give us
    the f-stop to use. If we know the subject is ten feet away, forty
    divided by ten equals f4. If you want to know if the flash can extend
    a certain distance past the subject, replace the flash-subject distance
    with the total distance in the formula.



    Guide numbers were developed experimentally indoors in a highly
    reflective room. Unless you're shooting under those conditions,
    consider the guide numbers to be estimates. This is especially true
    when you're using the guide number to calculate either the f-stop or
    flash distance. In the example above, we calculated that the flash
    would extend ten feet when we were shooting at f4 with a guide number
    of forty. In typical field shooting, the flash would probably not go
    that far. Use a slightly shorter distance, such as eight feet, to
    ensure a good exposure.

    Film speed, the other control over ambient light exposure, does have an
    impact on the guide number. The guide number increases as the film
    speed increases, because the film is more receptive to light. If the
    guide number were computed with ISO 100 film, a slower film would have
    a lower guide number; a film faster than ISO 100 would have a larger
    guide number.

    Most flash systems are coordinated so that the point of focus is also
    the point of exposure for the flash system. This is logical. The
    point of focus is the main subject in most photos, and you want the
    main subject properly exposed by the flash. There's only one
    exception to the guideline "your subject will always be properly
    exposed if it's within the range of the flash." Each flash unit
    has a minimum distance that the subject has to be away from the flash
    in order to enjoy proper exposure. Macro flash units have a very small
    minimum distance. Normal flash units may have a three-foot minimum
    distance. Check your flash manual for the minimum distance, or your
    subject might be greatly overexposed.

    In all other situations, the flash should properly illuminate your
    subject, if it's within the distance the flash will extend. However,
    light falls off rapidly at the square of the distance. If your
    background is any significant distance from your subject, the wrong
    exposure mode may result in the background not receiving enough
    illumination from the flash.

    In situations where you want to illuminate the background as well as
    the main subject, estimate the distance from the camera to the
    background element(s) that you want illuminated. Use the Guide Number
    formula for the f-stop you desire to see if the illumination will
    extend to the background elements. If it won't illuminate the
    background, you may need to open up the aperture and try again.

    The second cause for dark background is the exposure mode. Which auto
    exposure mode works best with flash photography? It depends. Let's
    examine the differences between shooting in Program Mode (P) versus
    Aperture Priority Mode (A or Av). Note that some cameras have two
    different program modes. One is usually a fully automatic mode; the
    other one is an automatic mode that allows the photographer to make
    changes to the settings. Many Canon cameras, for example, use the
    "Green Square" as the fully automatic mode. The "P" setting is
    also automatic, but it allows the photographer to make changes.

    In most cameras, all of the program modes become fully automatic and
    don't allow the photographer to make changes in the way they could in
    normal ambient light photography. The camera will provide an f-stop
    and shutter duration that you have to use-no exceptions.

    Due to the bias toward shutter duration in all program modes, the
    camera will set a flash synchronization speed anywhere from 1/60th to
    the maximum flash synchronization speed. Remember, you can't change
    the shutter duration to a slower one. Exactly which duration is
    selected will depend upon the level of ambient light.

    In situations where the ambient light level isn't too dark, Program
    Mode does an excellent job of controlling flash exposure. However,
    when the light level drops (you can tell because the shutter duration
    will be at 1/60th), the minimum shutter duration of 1/60th may not be
    long enough to capture the background ambient light. The result is
    that your subject will be properly exposed, while your background will
    be dark or even black.

    Aperture Priority Mode automatically goes into a
    "slow-synchronization" mode when used in flash photography. This
    mode automatically allows the camera to select shutter duration (as
    long as it is 30", if necessary) slow enough to fully capture the
    ambient background light, while the flash properly illuminates the
    subject. In low light situations, where you want to capture the
    background ambient light, Aperture Priority Mode is the best choice.
    Be aware that it can easily give you a shutter duration of 1", 4",
    or longer. A tripod, or some other way of stabilizing your camera for
    a long duration, is absolutely necessary.

    You can use Aperture Priority mode with flash for many situations. The
    mode works well when you're taking a photo of a person with a lighted
    building or other interesting illuminated objects in the background.
    Landscape photographers can also use Aperture Priority mode with flash.
    For example, allow the flash to illuminate an interesting foreground
    object while a longer exposure captures the colors of the sunset.

    Sometimes you may want to intentionally lighten or darken the
    background. Perhaps the background is cluttered or there's an
    element that you can't get completely out of focus. In these
    situations, darkening the background allows you to place more emphasis
    on your subject.

    The easiest way for auto focus cameras to do that is in Manual mode. In
    manual mode, the flash will properly illuminate the subject. Any
    exposure compensation that you perform will only affect the background.
    If, for example, you use -1 stop of exposure compensation, the
    background will be one stop darker, and your subject will remain
    properly exposed.

    To reduce exposure by one stop in Manual mode, establish the correct
    exposure and either use a faster shutter duration or close down the
    aperture by one stop. For example, if the correct exposure was 1/60th
    at f5.6, change the settings to EITHER 1/125th at f5.6 or 1/60th at f8.


    Since the flash will automatically properly illuminate the subject (if
    it's within the range of the flash), you can adjust the background
    illumination by as many stops as you desire.

    When using a flash in one of the auto focus modes, the flash performs
    differently. For most cameras in an auto focus mode (aperture
    priority, for example), any exposure compensation affects the subject
    as well as the background. There is a work-around for this problem if
    your camera operates in this manner. Suppose you want to deduct two
    stops of light from the background but have the subject properly
    exposed. Start by using your exposure compensation to reduce the
    exposure by two stops. This is easily accomplished if you have an
    exposure compensation feature on your camera. At this point, both the
    subject and background have two stops less exposure.

    To compensate for the loss of two stops of light in the image, set
    either your flash unit or camera's FLASH exposure compensation to +2
    stops. Increasing the flash exposure by the same amount that you
    decreased the overall exposure will properly illuminate your subject
    while making the background darker. For example, decreasing the
    ambient light by two stops (through the exposure compensation feature)
    results in the subject being illuminated at -2 and the background at
    -2. Increasing the flash exposure by +2 results in the subject being
    illuminated at 0 (-2 and +2 cancel out to give the normal exposure) and
    the background remains at -2.

    In summary, the distance from the camera to the background and the
    exposure mode you use are the determining factors for background
    exposure. If you use an automatic exposure mode, obtaining a shutter
    duration of 1/60th should make you aware that the background may be
    dark. If the background is important, switch to Aperture Priority
    mode, stabilize your camera for a long exposure, and take the shot.
    There are legitimate reasons for darkening the background, but it
    should be an intentional decision, not one achieved by accident.

    Whew! Hope this has been helpful. You can also check out this article
    for more information:

    http://www.basic-digital-photography.com/shooting-photos.html
     
    Gary Hendricks, Jan 1, 2006
    #13
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    Leo, Jun 29, 2006, in forum: Digital Photography
    Replies:
    2
    Views:
    325
  4. Jack
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    4
    Views:
    477
    Ed Velez
    Aug 22, 2006
  5. Cathy
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    Views:
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    Kadin2048
    Jul 7, 2007
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