Flash hard drives: Samsumg

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by steve, May 25, 2005.

  1. steve

    steve Guest

    Flash hard drives will be standard in all PCs within a very few years, I
    would think.

    I'm looking forward to the added speed and better access methods. There will
    no longer any real reason for accepting millisencond access rates when
    nano-second access rates will be cost effective.

    With no moving parts, the meantime between failure should rocket.



    http://news.softpedia.com/news/Samsung-is-betting-on-Flash-disk-drives-2222.shtml

    Samsung is betting on Flash disk drives
    Category: SOFTPEDIA NEWS :: Hardware

    Electronics has designed a new system based on flash memory chips that will
    replace current hard disk mechanisms. According to the company, mass
    production for these drives will start
    in August.

    The solid state disk (SDD) storing solutions are based on memory chips and
    compared to classic solutions they require less power and ensure better
    transfer rates.

    Samsung will fit these drives with the Advanced Technology Attachment
    parallel interface. The SDD system, which will be included first in a 16GB
    drive, is based on a 2.5 inch structure with 16 NAND Flash memory modules
    with capacities of 4 or 8 GB of memory. At the end of this year, Samsung
    will also propose a SDD solution of 1.8 inch which will offer the same
    storing capacity.

    By replacing current mechanical mechanisms with SDD, the drives will have: a
    five times lower power consumption rate, half the weight, reading and
    writing speeds of 57MBps, respectively 32 MBps (representing a 150%
    increase) and better stability and data protection. Other advantages are:
    less heating and no noise.

    However, for now, these SDD solutions are aimed at mobile systems used in
    industrial and military domains, Samsung announces. In the near future,
    cheaper solutions aimed at home-users will also be available.
     
    steve, May 25, 2005
    #1
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  2. steve

    thing Guest

    steve wrote:
    > Flash hard drives will be standard in all PCs within a very few years, I
    > would think.
    >
    > I'm looking forward to the added speed and better access methods. There will
    > no longer any real reason for accepting millisencond access rates when
    > nano-second access rates will be cost effective.
    >
    > With no moving parts, the meantime between failure should rocket.
    >
    >
    >
    > http://news.softpedia.com/news/Samsung-is-betting-on-Flash-disk-drives-2222.shtml
    >
    > Samsung is betting on Flash disk drives
    > Category: SOFTPEDIA NEWS :: Hardware
    >
    > Electronics has designed a new system based on flash memory chips that will
    > replace current hard disk mechanisms. According to the company, mass
    > production for these drives will start
    > in August.
    >
    > The solid state disk (SDD) storing solutions are based on memory chips and
    > compared to classic solutions they require less power and ensure better
    > transfer rates.
    >
    > Samsung will fit these drives with the Advanced Technology Attachment
    > parallel interface. The SDD system, which will be included first in a 16GB
    > drive, is based on a 2.5 inch structure with 16 NAND Flash memory modules
    > with capacities of 4 or 8 GB of memory. At the end of this year, Samsung
    > will also propose a SDD solution of 1.8 inch which will offer the same
    > storing capacity.
    >
    > By replacing current mechanical mechanisms with SDD, the drives will have: a
    > five times lower power consumption rate, half the weight, reading and
    > writing speeds of 57MBps, respectively 32 MBps (representing a 150%
    > increase) and better stability and data protection. Other advantages are:
    > less heating and no noise.
    >
    > However, for now, these SDD solutions are aimed at mobile systems used in
    > industrial and military domains, Samsung announces. In the near future,
    > cheaper solutions aimed at home-users will also be available.



    Would make interesting boot disks.....one flash drive v 2 scsi/sata
    drives and a HW raid controller....might actually work out
    cheaper....and faster.

    Except of course if "someone" developed a read only region for the OS
    and it was pre-installed with a MS OS.....

    regards

    thing
     
    thing, May 25, 2005
    #2
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  3. In article <>,
    steve <> wrote:

    >Flash hard drives will be standard in all PCs within a very few years, I
    >would think.
    >
    >I'm looking forward to the added speed and better access methods. There will
    >no longer any real reason for accepting millisencond access rates when
    >nano-second access rates will be cost effective.
    >
    >With no moving parts, the meantime between failure should rocket.
    >
    >http://news.softpedia.com/news/Samsung-is-betting-on-Flash-disk-drives-2222.sht
    >ml


    Where have I heard this before ... anybody remember magnetic bubble
    memory from the late 1970s? It was slower to access than semiconductor
    RAM, but more expensive than hard drives. Falling between two stools, it
    was never very popular.
     
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, May 25, 2005
    #3
  4. steve

    EMB Guest

    thing wrote:

    > Except of course if "someone" developed a read only region for the OS
    > and it was pre-installed with a MS OS.....


    Great concept, except I'd rather see OS/2 pre-installed - it would be
    more useful. :p


    --
    EMB
     
    EMB, May 25, 2005
    #4
  5. steve

    Steve Guest

    Like these? just need them to be 10 or 20GB+ :)

    http://www.pp.co.nz/HardDiskDrives-SolidState.php



    steve wrote:

    > Flash hard drives will be standard in all PCs within a very few years, I
    > would think.
    >
    > I'm looking forward to the added speed and better access methods. There will
    > no longer any real reason for accepting millisencond access rates when
    > nano-second access rates will be cost effective.
    >
    > With no moving parts, the meantime between failure should rocket.
    >
    > http://news.softpedia.com/news/Samsung-is-betting-on-Flash-disk-drives-2222.shtml
    >
    > Samsung is betting on Flash disk drives
    > Category: SOFTPEDIA NEWS :: Hardware
    >
    > Electronics has designed a new system based on flash memory chips that will
    > replace current hard disk mechanisms. According to the company, mass
    > production for these drives will start
    > in August.
    >
    > The solid state disk (SDD) storing solutions are based on memory chips and
    > compared to classic solutions they require less power and ensure better
    > transfer rates.
    >
    > Samsung will fit these drives with the Advanced Technology Attachment
    > parallel interface. The SDD system, which will be included first in a 16GB
    > drive, is based on a 2.5 inch structure with 16 NAND Flash memory modules
    > with capacities of 4 or 8 GB of memory. At the end of this year, Samsung
    > will also propose a SDD solution of 1.8 inch which will offer the same
    > storing capacity.
    >
    > By replacing current mechanical mechanisms with SDD, the drives will have: a
    > five times lower power consumption rate, half the weight, reading and
    > writing speeds of 57MBps, respectively 32 MBps (representing a 150%
    > increase) and better stability and data protection. Other advantages are:
    > less heating and no noise.
    >
    > However, for now, these SDD solutions are aimed at mobile systems used in
    > industrial and military domains, Samsung announces. In the near future,
    > cheaper solutions aimed at home-users will also be available.
     
    Steve, May 25, 2005
    #5
  6. steve

    Jedmeister Guest

    "steve" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Flash hard drives will be standard in all PCs within a very few years, I
    > would think.
    >
    > I'm looking forward to the added speed and better access methods. There
    > will
    > no longer any real reason for accepting millisencond access rates when
    > nano-second access rates will be cost effective.
    >
    > With no moving parts, the meantime between failure should rocket.
    >
    >
    >
    > http://news.softpedia.com/news/Samsung-is-betting-on-Flash-disk-drives-2222.shtml
    >
    > Samsung is betting on Flash disk drives
    > Category: SOFTPEDIA NEWS :: Hardware
    >
    > Electronics has designed a new system based on flash memory chips that
    > will
    > replace current hard disk mechanisms. According to the company, mass
    > production for these drives will start
    > in August.
    >
    > The solid state disk (SDD) storing solutions are based on memory chips and
    > compared to classic solutions they require less power and ensure better
    > transfer rates.
    >
    > Samsung will fit these drives with the Advanced Technology Attachment
    > parallel interface. The SDD system, which will be included first in a 16GB
    > drive, is based on a 2.5 inch structure with 16 NAND Flash memory modules
    > with capacities of 4 or 8 GB of memory. At the end of this year, Samsung
    > will also propose a SDD solution of 1.8 inch which will offer the same
    > storing capacity.
    >
    > By replacing current mechanical mechanisms with SDD, the drives will have:
    > a
    > five times lower power consumption rate, half the weight, reading and
    > writing speeds of 57MBps, respectively 32 MBps (representing a 150%
    > increase) and better stability and data protection. Other advantages are:
    > less heating and no noise.
    >
    > However, for now, these SDD solutions are aimed at mobile systems used in
    > industrial and military domains, Samsung announces. In the near future,
    > cheaper solutions aimed at home-users will also be available.


    Awesome, how much for a 400gb drive? Where can I get one?

    Seriously, perhaps it would be good to get a small 20gig one for running
    windows.
     
    Jedmeister, May 25, 2005
    #6
  7. steve wrote:
    > Flash hard drives will be standard in all PCs within a very few years, I
    > would think.


    The price will have to reduce massively. Although prices are falling,
    have you seen the prices for 2gb flash cards recently? AFAICS, with
    billions of discrete elements in each chip, won't there be a high
    failiure rate?

    Cheers,
    Nicholas Sherlock
     
    Nicholas Sherlock, May 25, 2005
    #7
  8. steve

    steve Guest

    thing wrote:

    > Would make interesting boot disks.....one flash drive v 2 scsi/sata
    > drives and a HW raid controller....might actually work out
    > cheaper....and faster.
    >
    > Except of course if "someone" developed a read only region for the OS
    > and it was pre-installed with a MS OS.....


    I'm sure you'd be able to buy ones that didn't...or could be hacked.
     
    steve, May 25, 2005
    #8
  9. steve

    steve Guest

    Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

    > Where have I heard this before ... anybody remember magnetic bubble
    > memory from the late 1970s? It was slower to access than semiconductor
    > RAM, but more expensive than hard drives. Falling between two stools, it
    > was never very popular.


    Agreed.....but that was then and the day of solid state hard drives has
    always been coming.

    The sheer reliability of the things, combined with more speed and chips
    are getting cheaper all the time.

    The cost curve had to meet the demand curve at some point......and there
    would be no looking back.
     
    steve, May 25, 2005
    #9
  10. steve

    steve Guest

    Steve wrote:
    > Like these? just need them to be 10 or 20GB+ :)
    >
    > http://www.pp.co.nz/HardDiskDrives-SolidState.php


    These Samsung ones will start at 16GB.....which is a nice size for a
    very usable Linux desktop with more than 13GB-14GB to spare after the
    install.....depending on what you lay down.



    >>Samsung will fit these drives with the Advanced Technology Attachment
    >>parallel interface. The SDD system, which will be included first in a 16GB
    >>drive, is based on a 2.5 inch structure with 16 NAND Flash memory modules
    >>with capacities of 4 or 8 GB of memory. At the end of this year, Samsung
    >>will also propose a SDD solution of 1.8 inch which will offer the same
    >>storing capacity.
     
    steve, May 25, 2005
    #10
  11. steve

    steve Guest

    Nicholas Sherlock wrote:
    > steve wrote:
    >
    >> Flash hard drives will be standard in all PCs within a very few years, I
    >> would think.

    >
    > The price will have to reduce massively. Although prices are falling,
    > have you seen the prices for 2gb flash cards recently? AFAICS, with
    > billions of discrete elements in each chip, won't there be a high
    > failiure rate?
    >
    > Cheers,
    > Nicholas Sherlock


    Initially they will be expensive....but say 5 years from now I would
    expect them to standard.

    Think back to 2000.....and Win98SE was only a year old and WinXP hadn't
    been released yet.

    Hard drives then were about 20GB for spinning platters.
     
    steve, May 25, 2005
    #11
  12. In article <429438b3$>, steve <>
    wrote:

    >Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >
    >> Where have I heard this before ... anybody remember magnetic bubble
    >> memory from the late 1970s? It was slower to access than semiconductor
    >> RAM, but more expensive than hard drives. Falling between two stools, it
    >> was never very popular.

    >
    >Agreed.....but that was then and the day of solid state hard drives has
    >always been coming.
    >
    >The sheer reliability of the things, combined with more speed and chips
    >are getting cheaper all the time.


    So have the hard drives.

    >The cost curve had to meet the demand curve at some point......and there
    >would be no looking back.


    The point is, it has to catch up with hard drives. But they continue to
    grow in capacity-per-unit-price at an unrelenting rate.
     
    Lawrence D¹Oliveiro, May 25, 2005
    #12
  13. In article <429439f7$>, steve <>
    wrote:

    >Nicholas Sherlock wrote:
    >> steve wrote:
    >>
    >>> Flash hard drives will be standard in all PCs within a very few years, I
    >>> would think.

    >>
    >> The price will have to reduce massively. Although prices are falling,
    >> have you seen the prices for 2gb flash cards recently? AFAICS, with
    >> billions of discrete elements in each chip, won't there be a high
    >> failiure rate?
    >>
    >> Cheers,
    >> Nicholas Sherlock

    >
    >Initially they will be expensive....but say 5 years from now I would
    >expect them to standard.


    But they probably would not be cost-competitive with terabyte hard
    drives.

    >Think back to 2000.....and Win98SE was only a year old and WinXP hadn't
    >been released yet.
    >
    >Hard drives then were about 20GB for spinning platters.


    And now they're 300-400 GB ... and they're still hard drives.
     
    Lawrence D¹Oliveiro, May 25, 2005
    #13
  14. steve

    GraB Guest

    GraB, May 25, 2005
    #14
  15. In article <d716im$u6c$>, Nicholas Sherlock <> wrote:
    >steve wrote:
    >> Flash hard drives will be standard in all PCs within a very few years, I
    >> would think.

    >
    >The price will have to reduce massively. Although prices are falling,
    >have you seen the prices for 2gb flash cards recently? AFAICS, with
    >billions of discrete elements in each chip, won't there be a high
    >failiure rate?


    The great joy of integrated circuits is that it's effectively one thing to
    fail. While there might be millins of 'transistor equivalents' ... these
    don't enter the equation. As it was once explained to me ... we wouldn't
    have video recorders if they built them out of discrete transistors :)



    Bruce


    -------------------------------------
    The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it.
    - George Bernard Shaw
    Cynic, n: a blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be.
    - Ambrose Bierce

    Caution ===== followups may have been changed to relevant groups
    (if there were any)
     
    Bruce Sinclair, May 25, 2005
    #15
  16. In article <>, -=rjh=- <> wrote:
    >Bruce Sinclair wrote:
    >> In article <d716im$u6c$>, Nicholas Sherlock

    > <> wrote:
    >>>steve wrote:
    >>>>Flash hard drives will be standard in all PCs within a very few years, I
    >>>>would think.
    >>>
    >>>The price will have to reduce massively. Although prices are falling,
    >>>have you seen the prices for 2gb flash cards recently? AFAICS, with
    >>>billions of discrete elements in each chip, won't there be a high
    >>>failiure rate?


    >> The great joy of integrated circuits is that it's effectively one thing to
    >> fail. While there might be millins of 'transistor equivalents' ... these
    >> don't enter the equation. As it was once explained to me ... we wouldn't
    >> have video recorders if they built them out of discrete transistors :)


    >But, I thought the main poblem with flash memory is that it *does* fail
    >after a relatively small number of writes? What is Samsung doing here
    >that is different?


    Why should it ? I have not heard of a failure of any 'pen drives' ... even
    though they get a hard life. Sure, that sort of life is not the kind of
    write performance you'd probably get as a 'hard drive'. :)

    (Anyone else had any of these fail or heard of it ?)

    I can see the possibilities for a few more failures than memory sticks that
    are physically inside computers (as they have a few extra mechanical bits
    that get used occasionally ... and peopel can be a bt rough :)) ... but why
    would they fail any more often otherwise ? .. and if they are installed as
    "hard drives", that connection/disconnection stress is minimised too ...
    isn't it ?




    Bruce


    -------------------------------------
    The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it.
    - George Bernard Shaw
    Cynic, n: a blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be.
    - Ambrose Bierce

    Caution ===== followups may have been changed to relevant groups
    (if there were any)
     
    Bruce Sinclair, May 25, 2005
    #16
  17. steve

    thing Guest

    steve wrote:
    > thing wrote:
    >
    >> Would make interesting boot disks.....one flash drive v 2 scsi/sata
    >> drives and a HW raid controller....might actually work out
    >> cheaper....and faster.
    >>
    >> Except of course if "someone" developed a read only region for the OS
    >> and it was pre-installed with a MS OS.....

    >
    >
    > I'm sure you'd be able to buy ones that didn't...or could be hacked.


    Im sure you could, of course most computer users will simply buy a
    Windows PC "that cant be hacked", only to find if they want to
    swap to Linux or OS/2 (grin) it cant be done on that hardware.

    Im sure BG gets wet dreams over that possibility....

    regards

    Thing
     
    thing, May 25, 2005
    #17
  18. steve

    -=rjh=- Guest

    Bruce Sinclair wrote:
    > In article <d716im$u6c$>, Nicholas Sherlock <> wrote:
    >
    >>steve wrote:
    >>
    >>>Flash hard drives will be standard in all PCs within a very few years, I
    >>>would think.

    >>
    >>The price will have to reduce massively. Although prices are falling,
    >>have you seen the prices for 2gb flash cards recently? AFAICS, with
    >>billions of discrete elements in each chip, won't there be a high
    >>failiure rate?

    >
    >
    > The great joy of integrated circuits is that it's effectively one thing to
    > fail. While there might be millins of 'transistor equivalents' ... these
    > don't enter the equation. As it was once explained to me ... we wouldn't
    > have video recorders if they built them out of discrete transistors :)
    >


    But, I thought the main poblem with flash memory is that it *does* fail
    after a relatively small number of writes? What is Samsung doing here
    that is different?
     
    -=rjh=-, May 25, 2005
    #18
  19. steve

    thing Guest

    Lawrence D¹Oliveiro wrote:
    > In article <429438b3$>, steve <>
    > wrote:
    >
    >
    >>Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>>Where have I heard this before ... anybody remember magnetic bubble
    >>>memory from the late 1970s? It was slower to access than semiconductor
    >>>RAM, but more expensive than hard drives. Falling between two stools, it
    >>>was never very popular.

    >>
    >>Agreed.....but that was then and the day of solid state hard drives has
    >>always been coming.
    >>
    >>The sheer reliability of the things, combined with more speed and chips
    >>are getting cheaper all the time.

    >
    >
    > So have the hard drives.
    >
    >
    >>The cost curve had to meet the demand curve at some point......and there
    >>would be no looking back.

    >
    >
    > The point is, it has to catch up with hard drives. But they continue to
    > grow in capacity-per-unit-price at an unrelenting rate.


    Depends on what you use the disks for. For a single harddrive box like a
    desktop, 1 drive is cheapest and I suspect will be for a while.

    If you want something more reliable for booting then you need to go to 2
    disks and a hardware raid. 2 disks plus the hw raid is not cheap, it
    might be that a flash solution for boot while expensive for one unit
    would be more reliable and faster than 3 traditional components.

    Also some critical data like journal logs, dba logs etc could be
    dedicated to a flash drive, these are usually highly critical and read /
    write intensive so performance gains here yield noticable improvements.
     
    thing, May 25, 2005
    #19
  20. In article <>, Mutlley <> wrote:
    >GraB <> wrote:
    >
    >>On Wed, 25 May 2005 17:56:03 +1200, Steve <> wrote:
    >>
    >>>Like these? just need them to be 10 or 20GB+ :)
    >>>
    >>>http://www.pp.co.nz/HardDiskDrives-SolidState.php
    >>>

    >>I like the MTBF, 1,000,000 hours.

    >
    >Hardly the fastest transfer rate avg 4Meg/sec
    >
    >I have worked with systems over the past few years that use flash roms
    >instead of hard disks and I'm yet to me convince. Disk corruption
    >seems to be the main problem compared to their HD equivalents systems


    Is that lack of verification of the write, stability of the written data or
    ... ?



    Bruce


    -------------------------------------
    The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it.
    - George Bernard Shaw
    Cynic, n: a blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be.
    - Ambrose Bierce

    Caution ===== followups may have been changed to relevant groups
    (if there were any)
     
    Bruce Sinclair, May 25, 2005
    #20
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