Fighting Canon i9900 printer

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Stacey, Jan 31, 2005.

  1. Stacey

    Stacey Guest

    Been fighting with trying to get decent color balance with this thing. I've
    been using an 8200 for years using "auto" with no corrections in the driver
    and using the "printer color management" setting in PS, it has always
    looked just like the screen. Nice skin tones from in camera images on 2
    different cameras etc. These same files print nice at the lab using no
    corrections. They might need a tweak now and then to be "perfect" but it's
    always pretty close to good first shot.

    With this new printer, every print has a =strong= magenta cast. Not a
    "tweak" but a really strong one. I tried different ICM files inside PS
    turning off the ICM in the printer driver exactly like the canon ICM PDF
    file explains to do if not using auto, same thing as using auto. Tried ICM
    files from Ilford (even though I'm not using their paper) and got a
    slightly different version of this same cast so it IS reading the ICM file
    I tell it to use. If I manually set the printer driver to -30 mageneta
    turning off ICM in the driver and setting the canon ICM in PS, it's getting
    close but seems odd a printer would be this far off out of the box. I'm
    using canon paper and ink, have the driver set to use this specific paper
    etc. I can't believe they all are like this.

    The other thing that seems odd, if I do a "soft proof" with the ICM file for
    my old 8200, it doesn't change the image much at all. If I do it with this
    new printer, it drastically changes it. Is that normal? If this is the
    case, am I going to have to manually color balance every shot using this
    soft proof? If so, this things going back and I'll wait for the new epson
    2200 replacement.
    --

    Stacey
     
    Stacey, Jan 31, 2005
    #1
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  2. Stacey wrote:
    > Been fighting with trying to get decent color balance with this thing. I've
    > been using an 8200 for years using "auto" with no corrections in the driver
    > and using the "printer color management" setting in PS, it has always
    > looked just like the screen. Nice skin tones from in camera images on 2
    > different cameras etc. These same files print nice at the lab using no
    > corrections. They might need a tweak now and then to be "perfect" but it's
    > always pretty close to good first shot.
    >
    > With this new printer, every print has a =strong= magenta cast. Not a
    > "tweak" but a really strong one. I tried different ICM files inside PS
    > turning off the ICM in the printer driver exactly like the canon ICM PDF
    > file explains to do if not using auto, same thing as using auto. Tried ICM
    > files from Ilford (even though I'm not using their paper) and got a
    > slightly different version of this same cast so it IS reading the ICM file
    > I tell it to use. If I manually set the printer driver to -30 mageneta
    > turning off ICM in the driver and setting the canon ICM in PS, it's getting
    > close but seems odd a printer would be this far off out of the box. I'm
    > using canon paper and ink, have the driver set to use this specific paper
    > etc. I can't believe they all are like this.
    >
    > The other thing that seems odd, if I do a "soft proof" with the ICM file for
    > my old 8200, it doesn't change the image much at all. If I do it with this
    > new printer, it drastically changes it. Is that normal? If this is the
    > case, am I going to have to manually color balance every shot using this
    > soft proof? If so, this things going back and I'll wait for the new epson
    > 2200 replacement.

    ----------------
    This is not the forum for this sort of problem but now you are here...
    Whenever you get a magenta cast in any output to a printer from
    Photoshop or Photopaint it is because you are managing colour twice.

    Turn off colour management under Photoshop altogether and see if the
    same thing happens. I'm betting it won't. Try using one of the Photoshop
    groups for more precise information.

    --
    EOS my GOD,
    Give me ISO for I have not yet seen the light.
    Take away my grain, give me colour and you
    shall have given me the edge!
     
    Deciple of EOS, Jan 31, 2005
    #2
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  3. Stacey

    Stacey Guest

    Deciple of EOS wrote:

    > This is not the forum for this sort of problem but now you are here...


    Sorry where is a place to ask this? I tried a couple of printer forums and
    got similar responces, I have already tried to make &^* sure I wasn't
    managing color twice. Isn't using "printer color managment" as the print
    space turning it off in PS? The source is sRGB space, are you saying I
    should set the printer color space to same as document?

    > Whenever you get a magenta cast in any output to a printer from
    > Photoshop or Photopaint it is because you are managing colour twice.


    Hmm I've used these exact same setting ("use printer management" and then
    "auto" in the printer driver) with my canon 8200 and it prints fine. I then
    tried setiing in PS the printer ICM as the printer source and then turned
    off ICM and told it "none" for a profile like canon's instructions said to
    do in the printer driver which is supposed to turn off color management in
    the printer driver and got the exact same output. Frustrating...

    >
    > Turn off colour management under Photoshop altogether and see if the
    > same thing happens. I'm betting it won't.


    I'll give that a shot but I thought I'm already doing that by setting the
    printer source as "printer color management"? I guess I can try setting the
    print space as "same as source" and see what happens..

    --

    Stacey
     
    Stacey, Jan 31, 2005
    #3
  4. Stacey

    Stacey Guest

    Stacey wrote:

    >> Turn off colour management under Photoshop altogether and see if the
    >> same thing happens. I'm betting it won't.

    >
    > I'll give that a shot but I thought I'm already doing that by setting the
    > printer source as "printer color management"? I guess I can try setting
    > the print space as "same as source" and see what happens..
    >


    Just tried it which should be sending it without touching anything about the
    image and it looks exactly the same..

    --

    Stacey
     
    Stacey, Jan 31, 2005
    #4
  5. Stacey

    efr Guest

    I had the "magenta" problem: I had one cartridge misplaced.
    Check the canon web site tech support: when I reported my problem, the first
    or second question they asked was about the order of the cartridges and my
    problem was fixed in less than 1 minute.
    I am extremely happy with my printer
    "Stacey" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Stacey wrote:
    >
    > >> Turn off colour management under Photoshop altogether and see if the
    > >> same thing happens. I'm betting it won't.

    > >
    > > I'll give that a shot but I thought I'm already doing that by setting

    the
    > > printer source as "printer color management"? I guess I can try setting
    > > the print space as "same as source" and see what happens..
    > >

    >
    > Just tried it which should be sending it without touching anything about

    the
    > image and it looks exactly the same..
    >
    > --
    >
    > Stacey
     
    efr, Jan 31, 2005
    #5
  6. Stacey

    Guest

    Efr beat me to it. Check your cartridges, and make sure they are in
    order and correct, like not having a second magenta in the *photo*
    magenta slot..

    After that I would uninstall PS (and all of its setting files)
    completely, and the printer driver. Then re-install and make sure
    nothing is color managing, and try it in that mode before doing
    anything.

    I have the 9100, and it was remarkably accurate out-of-the-box.
    Because I like to print from many different programs, I don't use PS
    color management at all.
     
    , Jan 31, 2005
    #6
  7. Stacey

    Stacey Guest

    wrote:

    > Efr beat me to it. Check your cartridges, and make sure they are in
    > order and correct, like not having a second magenta in the *photo*
    > magenta slot..


    Just double checked and they are all in the right slots. Also seems weird
    all the other inks are almost full except the photo magenta/cyan which are
    3/4 empty? I'm guessing the cyan is so low from trying to balance the "too
    much magenta" thing?

    >
    > After that I would uninstall PS (and all of its setting files)
    > completely, and the printer driver. Then re-install and make sure
    > nothing is color managing, and try it in that mode before doing
    > anything.


    I haven't tried printing from other software, I'll try that tonight. I've
    already wasted a TON of paper trying to get this dialed in. :-(

    >
    > I have the 9100, and it was remarkably accurate out-of-the-box.
    >


    That's why I am thinking something may be wrong with it. NOBODY would accept
    these pink/magenta prints this thing is producing out of the box, my $60
    epson C84 has better color balance than this thing is producing..
    --

    Stacey
     
    Stacey, Jan 31, 2005
    #7
  8. Stacey

    Markeau Guest

    "Stacey" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Just double checked and they are all in the right slots. Also seems
    > weird
    > all the other inks are almost full except the photo magenta/cyan
    > which are
    > 3/4 empty? I'm guessing the cyan is so low from trying to balance
    > the "too
    > much magenta" thing?


    The PC and PM are the first to go, and they go fast.

    >>
    >> After that I would uninstall PS (and all of its setting files)
    >> completely, and the printer driver. Then re-install and make sure
    >> nothing is color managing, and try it in that mode before doing
    >> anything.

    >
    > I haven't tried printing from other software, I'll try that tonight.
    > I've
    > already wasted a TON of paper trying to get this dialed in. :-(


    Try printing with the Canon software that came with the printer.
    Also read over on the Printers forum at
    http://forums.dpreview.com
    .... as there are others that have had similar problems.

    At first my i9900 also had a magenta cast on all canon papers except
    matte which had a yellow cast. After reading that canon icc pdf and
    turning everything off in the printer driver and only selecting the
    paper profile in PS CS everything works fine now. I have heard the
    also doing the print preview in the canon printer driver for some
    reason causes color problems for some, so I always leave that option
    disabled.
     
    Markeau, Jan 31, 2005
    #8
  9. Stacey

    Markeau Guest

    never mind, i see you've already posted on dpreview
     
    Markeau, Jan 31, 2005
    #9
  10. Stacey

    Ben Thomas Guest

    Stacey wrote:
    > Been fighting with trying to get decent color balance with this thing. I've
    > been using an 8200 for years using "auto" with no corrections in the driver
    > and using the "printer color management" setting in PS, it has always
    > looked just like the screen. Nice skin tones from in camera images on 2
    > different cameras etc. These same files print nice at the lab using no
    > corrections. They might need a tweak now and then to be "perfect" but it's
    > always pretty close to good first shot.
    >


    Don't use ICM in PS AND in the printer driver. In PS use sRGB as source and
    Printer Colour Management for output.

    Don't check the ICM box in the printer driver.
    --
    --
    Ben Thomas - Software Engineer - Melbourne, Australia

    My Digital World:
    Kodak DX6490, Canon i9950, Pioneer A05;
    Hitachi 37" HD plasma display, DGTEC 2000A,
    Denon 2800, H/K AVR4500, Whatmough Encore;
    Sony Ericsson K700i, Palm Tungsten T.

    Disclaimer:
    Opinions, conclusions, and other information in this message that do not
    relate to the official business of my employer shall be understood as neither
    given nor endorsed by it.
     
    Ben Thomas, Jan 31, 2005
    #10
  11. Stacey

    Confused Guest

    On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 01:54:37 -0500
    In message <>
    Stacey <> wrote:

    > Deciple of EOS wrote:
    >
    > > This is not the forum for this sort of problem but now you are here...

    >
    > Sorry where is a place to ask this?


    This is the place. Deciple's comment is bunk. :)

    Jeff
     
    Confused, Jan 31, 2005
    #11
  12. Stacey

    rafe bustin Guest

    On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 23:11:52 -0500, Stacey <> wrote:

    >Been fighting with trying to get decent color balance with this thing. I've
    >been using an 8200 for years using "auto" with no corrections in the driver
    >and using the "printer color management" setting in PS, it has always
    >looked just like the screen. Nice skin tones from in camera images on 2
    >different cameras etc. These same files print nice at the lab using no
    >corrections. They might need a tweak now and then to be "perfect" but it's
    >always pretty close to good first shot.
    >
    >With this new printer, every print has a =strong= magenta cast. Not a
    >"tweak" but a really strong one. I tried different ICM files inside PS
    >turning off the ICM in the printer driver exactly like the canon ICM PDF
    >file explains to do if not using auto, same thing as using auto. Tried ICM
    >files from Ilford (even though I'm not using their paper) and got a
    >slightly different version of this same cast so it IS reading the ICM file
    >I tell it to use. If I manually set the printer driver to -30 mageneta
    >turning off ICM in the driver and setting the canon ICM in PS, it's getting
    >close but seems odd a printer would be this far off out of the box. I'm
    >using canon paper and ink, have the driver set to use this specific paper
    >etc. I can't believe they all are like this.
    >
    >The other thing that seems odd, if I do a "soft proof" with the ICM file for
    >my old 8200, it doesn't change the image much at all. If I do it with this
    >new printer, it drastically changes it. Is that normal? If this is the
    >case, am I going to have to manually color balance every shot using this
    >soft proof? If so, this things going back and I'll wait for the new epson
    >2200 replacement.



    You don't really need to worry about ICM
    except if you "default" on specifying
    specific color spaces along the way.

    Typically you need to make two choices: a
    color space to use as a workspace, and a
    profile to use for your output device (ie.,
    the Canon 9900.) There is also a monitor
    profile to consider. You can generate that
    either with Adobe Gamma or a dedicated
    monitor profiling device (eg., Spyder
    or Gretag Eye-One.)

    That said, I would (as an experiment
    toward debugging this problem) set the
    working space to sRGB and print with
    no output profile at all, using all
    default settings in the printer driver.

    [Why? Because sRGB is the lowest
    common denominator, and most devices
    are built to use or generate sRGB
    by default.]

    A Canon 9900 or any other modern
    desktop printer, using OEM media,
    should print nicely with no color
    management at all -- assuming the
    image itself is free of color casts.

    I'd also suggest using Canon media,
    at least for starters, and making sure
    to indicate the proper paper type in
    the print driver. Using an off-brand
    (or even "high end") paper at this
    stage of the game is asking for
    trouble.

    As others have mentioned, there could
    be an outage in one or more inks --
    but that can be proven/disproven with
    a simple nozzle check. (And usually
    shows up as nasty banding in the prints.)

    What are the R/G/B/ values of pure
    whites in the image you're trying to
    print? How about the blacks and
    neutrals? White, black and neutral
    tones should have equal values of
    red, green and blue (within, say,
    five points out of 256.)

    Can you post a JPG of the image you're
    trying to print? It needn't be full-res --
    a few hundred pixels on a side might tell
    us something.


    rafe b.
    http://www.terrapinphoto.com
     
    rafe bustin, Feb 1, 2005
    #12
  13. Stacey

    Stacey Guest

    Markeau wrote:

    >
    > At first my i9900 also had a magenta cast on all canon papers except
    > matte which had a yellow cast. After reading that canon icc pdf and
    > turning everything off in the printer driver and only selecting the
    > paper profile in PS CS everything works fine now.


    I'm doing this now, also using a "soft proof" using the canon icc and
    adjusting the "proof"in the canon color space to look like a copy of the
    original is sRGB color space and that seems to work. Guess I can live with
    this as the prints do look REALLY good from this printer.
    --

    Stacey
     
    Stacey, Feb 1, 2005
    #13
  14. Stacey

    Stacey Guest

    rafe bustin wrote:

    >
    > That said, I would (as an experiment
    > toward debugging this problem) set the
    > working space to sRGB and print with
    > no output profile at all, using all
    > default settings in the printer driver.
    >


    Still looks weird, that's what I did to start with and have been
    experimenting from there.

    >
    > A Canon 9900 or any other modern
    > desktop printer, using OEM media,
    > should print nicely with no color
    > management at all -- assuming the
    > image itself is free of color casts.


    I tried the fuji test jpeg and it still looks too magenta to me.

    >
    > I'd also suggest using Canon media,
    > at least for starters, and making sure


    Yea I figured this, I'm using canon's paper.


    What I ended up doing was using the "soft proof" setup in PS using the canon
    ICC profile for this paper. When I switch to this soft proof mode with this
    canon supplied ICC profile, the proof also shifts to the same magenta the
    prints did. If I color balance this proof to the original and then print,
    it comes out perfect. What's odd is I downloaded the ilford paper's ICC
    profile and doing a soft proof with it, the colors don't shift. Does this
    mean that maybe with Ilford paper I wouldn't have this magenta color shift?
    I admit I may be being -extreamly- picky about this but after doing my own
    color darkroom printing for years I know when the colors don't look like I
    want them to. I guess this has taught me how to use the "soft proof"
    thingie in PS. I suppose =that= was worth the wasted paper and ink! :)
    --

    Stacey
     
    Stacey, Feb 1, 2005
    #14
  15. Stacey

    rafe bustin Guest

    On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 00:45:42 -0500, Stacey <> wrote:


    >What I ended up doing was using the "soft proof" setup in PS using the canon
    >ICC profile for this paper. When I switch to this soft proof mode with this
    >canon supplied ICC profile, the proof also shifts to the same magenta the
    >prints did. If I color balance this proof to the original and then print,
    >it comes out perfect. What's odd is I downloaded the ilford paper's ICC
    >profile and doing a soft proof with it, the colors don't shift. Does this
    >mean that maybe with Ilford paper I wouldn't have this magenta color shift?
    >I admit I may be being -extreamly- picky about this but after doing my own
    >color darkroom printing for years I know when the colors don't look like I
    >want them to. I guess this has taught me how to use the "soft proof"
    >thingie in PS. I suppose =that= was worth the wasted paper and ink! :)



    A few observations for what they're worth.


    1. I worked for years without using ICC based
    "color management" (aka profiles.) It is
    possible, but it's not a popular approach.
    It relies on setting white points, black
    points, and neutrals numerically in Photoshop,
    using the Info tool to measure RGB values.
    One advantage is that it removes any
    dependency on monitor accuracy or calibration.

    Working this way, I occasionally had issues
    with gamma (brightness/contrast) but never,
    ever with color casts.

    2. When I use soft proofing, I almost never
    see a significant color shift. In fact, it's
    been my experience that a strong color shift
    (from soft proofing) is almost always due to
    a poor output profile.

    3. An output profile depends on a very specific
    setup in the print driver. The specific settings
    need to be provided with the profile. If you
    don't use exactly those driver settings, the
    profile is null and void.

    4. No ICC output profile can work when the
    print driver is allowed to do "automatic"
    corrections to the image.

    5. You haven't said much about how you're
    calibrating your monitor.


    Bottom line -- I'm a bit suspicious of your
    described "solution," but if it works for you,
    who am I to argue...



    rafe b.
    http://www.terrapinphoto.com
     
    rafe bustin, Feb 1, 2005
    #15
  16. Stacey

    Stacey Guest

    rafe bustin wrote:


    >
    > 2. When I use soft proofing, I almost never
    > see a significant color shift. In fact, it's
    > been my experience that a strong color shift
    > (from soft proofing) is almost always due to
    > a poor output profile.


    I agree. I tried "soft proof" profiles from my other printer and get no
    color shift. And also never saw any color shift in printing. But now I do
    get some color shift when printing with this new printer, I get color shift
    when soft proofing using the supplied ICC profile that is exactly the same
    amount? Makes sense to me this printer/paper combo has a color shift if
    it's seen in the profile soft proofing and in printing.


    >
    > 3. An output profile depends on a very specific
    > setup in the print driver. The specific settings
    > need to be provided with the profile.


    They are, basically you set the type of paper, quality and turn off ALL
    color controls in the driver. They supply 4 different ICC profiles for
    different quality settings and canon paper types.

    >
    > 4. No ICC output profile can work when the
    > print driver is allowed to do "automatic"
    > corrections to the image.


    No doubt. The automatic setting were shifting magenta just like the soft
    proof does. I'm thinking that I can probably use this "color shifted" soft
    proof and if sent with the printer in auto, it will look fine since it's
    set to use this ICC profile if the correct paper and quality is set as
    well.

    If you would, I could send you the ICC profile and let you see what it does
    on your system soft proofing as far as a color shift? If you also see this
    magenta shift soft proofing, I know this is just something this
    paper/ink/printer combo does. Like I said the ilford ICC profile for this
    same printer/ink has NO color shift so maybe with that paper this color
    shift thing wouldn't be an issue?
    --

    Stacey
     
    Stacey, Feb 1, 2005
    #16
  17. Stacey

    Confused Guest

    On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 20:13:23 GMT
    In message <i23mtc.esl.ln@192.168.11.2>
    Ben Thomas <> wrote:

    > Don't use ICM in PS AND in the printer driver.
    > In PS use sRGB as source and Printer Colour
    > Management for output.
    >
    > Don't check the ICM box in the printer driver.


    Does Adobe actually spell it "colour" in your region? <grin>

    On a serious note, I thought we were supposed to download and use
    paper specific ICM files for each printer. Is this a case of the OS
    defaults actually being used properly by applications and drivers?

    Jeff
     
    Confused, Feb 1, 2005
    #17
  18. Stacey

    rafe bustin Guest

    On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 01:54:34 -0500, Stacey <> wrote:


    >If you would, I could send you the ICC profile and let you see what it does
    >on your system soft proofing as far as a color shift? If you also see this
    >magenta shift soft proofing, I know this is just something this
    >paper/ink/printer combo does. Like I said the ilford ICC profile for this
    >same printer/ink has NO color shift so maybe with that paper this color
    >shift thing wouldn't be an issue?



    Feel free.


    rafe
    http://www.terrapinphoto.com
     
    rafe bustin, Feb 1, 2005
    #18
  19. Stacey

    Stacey Guest

    rafe bustin wrote:

    > On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 01:54:34 -0500, Stacey <> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>If you would, I could send you the ICC profile and let you see what it
    >>does on your system soft proofing as far as a color shift? If you also see
    >>this magenta shift soft proofing, I know this is just something this
    >>paper/ink/printer combo does. Like I said the ilford ICC profile for this
    >>same printer/ink has NO color shift so maybe with that paper this color
    >>shift thing wouldn't be an issue?

    >
    >
    > Feel free.
    >
    >



    Cool, I did discover something interesting. I've been e-mailing canon
    support about this and they asked me to try it on "plain paper". I printed
    this same image on canon high rez "plain paper" using the high rez settings
    in the printer driver with "printer management" set in PS and auto used in
    the driver and it comes out perfect without this magenta cast so it appears
    something is weird with this "photo pro" canon paper used in this model
    printer?
    --

    Stacey
     
    Stacey, Feb 2, 2005
    #19
  20. Stacey

    rafe bustin Guest

    On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 20:12:56 -0500, Stacey <> wrote:

    >rafe bustin wrote:
    >
    >> On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 01:54:34 -0500, Stacey <> wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>>If you would, I could send you the ICC profile and let you see what it
    >>>does on your system soft proofing as far as a color shift? If you also see
    >>>this magenta shift soft proofing, I know this is just something this
    >>>paper/ink/printer combo does. Like I said the ilford ICC profile for this
    >>>same printer/ink has NO color shift so maybe with that paper this color
    >>>shift thing wouldn't be an issue?

    >>
    >>
    >> Feel free.
    >>
    >>

    >
    >
    >Cool, I did discover something interesting. I've been e-mailing canon
    >support about this and they asked me to try it on "plain paper". I printed
    >this same image on canon high rez "plain paper" using the high rez settings
    >in the printer driver with "printer management" set in PS and auto used in
    >the driver and it comes out perfect without this magenta cast so it appears
    >something is weird with this "photo pro" canon paper used in this model
    >printer?



    In that case it's possible you're not using
    the profile at all.

    The output profile wants to be applied once
    and only once. If you "Print With Preview"
    and select the ouptut profile from inside PS,
    then you have to make sure the print driver
    isn't applying the profile again, and that the
    driver isn't doing any automatic "correction"
    of the image. In particular, that means NOT
    using ICM, or sRGB, or any other profile
    within the print driver.

    You might want to have a quick look at
    the following URL for an example of how
    it's done with HP printer drivers -- it
    may yield a clue or two...

    <http://www.neilsnape.com/color/hpdj30130_icc_printing/index.html>


    rafe b.
    http://www.terrapinphoto.com
     
    rafe bustin, Feb 2, 2005
    #20
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